Good post.
263 grounds is insane. It's also insane you could count them.
As an Irish person who goes to OT the odd time, it's like the Taj Mahal compared to our stadiums, which is why I find it funny when people say it's crumbling.
New Stadium or Revamp Old Trafford | Aim is to build 100k seater stadium
- Thread starter Ian Reus
- Start date
Good post.
263 grounds is insane. It's also insane you could count them.
As an Irish person who goes to OT the odd time, it's like the Taj Mahal compared to our stadiums, which is why I find it funny when people say it's crumbling.
I would like Old Trafford to be modernised. I just fear it's been left to rot too long for much of it to be saved.
Football grounds are meant to have an edge about them. That's why I'd like a new ground to have a similar design to the current one.
Too many of the modern stadiums are almost too polished.
I imagine almost everyone would prefer that, the issue really is that it's likely significantly more expensive than building a new stadium is, otherwise there wouldn't be a question.
Finding a way to preserve the spirit/soul of Old Trafford within a new stadium seems like the sweet spot, be it including part of it within the new structure where possible, or downsizing and keeping it as part of the campus.
I love it when people talk sense to unequivocally debunk someone's extreme non-nuanced take that they spurt out of feeling rather than evidence.
Out of curiosity have you been to any of the big modern US stadiums? If so are they a good experience?
Reminds me of Villa Park, minus the steps.Guessing a Lucas Oil Stadium influence would be a no for you?
We’ve been teased with this for almost a year. We must be edging closer to a decision. either way it’ll be great to see official plans…when they eventually drop
Going to see a game would feel like going to work in a factory. But the massive retractable roof is cool.
Even if they upgraded OT to 100k everything would have to be rebuilt including moving the pitch as there wouldn’t be enough space around the Charlton stand, so it still wouldn’t be in the exact spot. Best idea is the Spurs idea. Build as close by as possible and still use OT until built
To be fair the majority of it is newer than the Bernabeu and the Nou Camp which are both being or have been renovated and modernised.
People seem to forget the majority of OT is relatively modern. A fair chunk of it was built within the last 30 odd years.
On one hand, of course I'd love for United to always play at Old Trafford. So many memories for me there, and so many historic moments watching some of the world's greats lace up their boots and perform! That's the pitch George Best, Edwards, Ronaldo, Giggs, Cantona, Beckham, Rooney walked out on. Thinking rationally and not with emotions, and not knowing much about the building trade, I really don't know if it's viable or possible to revamp OT into a state of the art modern stadium. Even if it is, it might very well not cost too much more to just build a new stadium.
United should have the best in class. The best training facility, the best stadium, the best squad, the best well run club. As arguably the biggest club in the world, it's United who should be the benchmark. In England alone, United are so far behind with its stadium. Spurs have even overtaken us with theirs.
The stadium would be in the same area and I think that's important. Also for the long term future a new stadium is a much better option moving the club forward. Normally clubs move miles away when going to a new stadium, that won't be the case.
The question is. How do you have the SOUL of Manchester United in a new stadium? I really hope red brick is involved. When I see red brick, I think Manchester. And I'm from Ireland. To me, that's an identity. It gives me that historic feeling. The BIGGEST thing I hope they don't do, if a new stadium is built, is it being ''Insurance Manchester Stadium'' etc... I don't know if ''New Old Trafford'' sounds right or perhaps ''The Alex Ferguson Stadium''. I'm just throwing an idea for the name out there to get my point across. I really do think the new stadium needs the United identity and I think the best way to do that is with its name and red bricks.
United should have the best in class. The best training facility, the best stadium, the best squad, the best well run club. As arguably the biggest club in the world, it's United who should be the benchmark. In England alone, United are so far behind with its stadium. Spurs have even overtaken us with theirs.
The stadium would be in the same area and I think that's important. Also for the long term future a new stadium is a much better option moving the club forward. Normally clubs move miles away when going to a new stadium, that won't be the case.
The question is. How do you have the SOUL of Manchester United in a new stadium? I really hope red brick is involved. When I see red brick, I think Manchester. And I'm from Ireland. To me, that's an identity. It gives me that historic feeling. The BIGGEST thing I hope they don't do, if a new stadium is built, is it being ''Insurance Manchester Stadium'' etc... I don't know if ''New Old Trafford'' sounds right or perhaps ''The Alex Ferguson Stadium''. I'm just throwing an idea for the name out there to get my point across. I really do think the new stadium needs the United identity and I think the best way to do that is with its name and red bricks.
Well you put it much better than I did.
Go on Google maps and look at the footprint of the Spurs stadium - there's no way there's enough space to build an even bigger stadium with that lond of footprint and retain the current stadium
Could take the Everton concept of extremely steep stands a step further and just build stands straight up
It's the restriction of the land shape that might be the problem, where OT current;ly sits basically covers the space between the railway line and the canal, based on the Spurs stadium and an increase to say 100K for OT I'd suspect a new stadium would need at least 50% to 75% more land than current OT footprint
I believe you're hitting the core of the problem here.
INEOS would have zero economical troubles financing the new stadium build. Sure they would ideally love to get the government and other private sponsors to chip in, but they can easily afford to build a brand new 100k seater using their own funds. They would not be restricted by any FFP/PSR rules either, as clubs are free to spend as much as they want on facilities and infrastructure.
The big problem is the logistics and surrounding land mass. The footprint of a brand new and modern 100k seater with expanded commercial facilites like a new Megastore, in-house restaurants, pubs, a museum, in-house offices and a huge parking lot would probably be double of the current footprint, if not even more.
Add to that the fact they ideally want to also keep a downsized Old Trafford on the same land mass, and there is basically no space for such a new build, no matter which direction its placed. There would need to be a significant expansion and restructuring of the surrounding land mass around the canal and railway line to make this feasible. So we're also at the mercy of the Trafford Council (and/or Manchester City Council?) to realize our plans.
I've hardly ever seen a big industrial build stay within its projections on both cost and time. They usually either massively overshoot their budget, time, or both. Almost all industrial builds hit eventual snags and problems that are not possible to calculate beforehand, leading to increased cost and time. With such massive builds involving thousands of people working on it, some details are almost guaranteed to be overlooked or wrongly calculated in the planning phase.
And that's not even including fluctuating, volatile things like the wildly varying prices of building materials and the industrial, heavy duty machinery, worker's wages increasing over a 6-year period, potential union strikes and not least the weather, that affects everything. Certain things either take a longer time or is very hard to do effectively if it's raining or snowing hard, or if it's blistering hot. Weather-wise, building a stadium in Manchester is harder than in Madrid, where the weather forecast is usually comparatively stable.
All of these things can of course be accounted for beforehand to a certain degree with some failsafe financial margins, but it's almost impossible to get it just about right. Most projects secure funding by reporting a sweet-spot cost to get approval, which in this case looks to be 2 billion pounds. You don't want to scare away potential investors before starting the build, by including huge failsafe margins. And once the build has started, there's really no turning back, so then it's easier to secure further funding to get the damn project finished. You can't just half finish a stadium build and then abandon it because it overshoots its costs or time. The thing will pretty much have to be finished, no matter the cost.
So I believe we will eventually get it done. But I expect the cost to exceed the projected 2 billions, and I believe it could even take longer than the reported 6 years.
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Not quie accurate, OT comes under Trafford council area not the Manchester City one
I've posed these links before - look at them at teh same scale and you can esily see the problem, I'm not an engineer or architect so I couldn't say what is possible or not but from a laymans point of view I can see how the actual space available might be problematic
Old Trafford
Tottenham stadium
You're right, it's Trafford Council. But the point still stands and the mechanics are the same. It's something we need to get done in co-operation with an outside governmental body, as our land mass alone doesn't seem to be enough.
Spurs' stadium has quite a massive footprint, and that's just 63 000 seats. It's certainly feasible that a new 100 000 seater would require approximately double the footprint, including even more modern and spacious amenities than what's on offer there. Our offices, pubs, restaurants, museum, Megastore and parking lot would also surely need to accommodate a lot more people than Spurs.
Someone suggested building a lot higher to compensate for lack of land mass. That's a possibility, but it's not ideal and not something I think we should do. Sitting way up in the skies makes for a lousy match day experience, as the players will look like ants scurrying about the field.
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all the plans I’ve seen seem to suggest we will be using some of the land behind OT that has all those shipping containers, I would suspect we would make deal to take some of that land, and in theory that would give us enough room.
Two cheese rooms and at least a cracker and grape store.Surely not.....two cheese rooms?
United lease/own some of that land already but it would be highly unlikely that they would be able to build on the lower section of it, that area is part of the railfreight terminal, I don't see that they would be allowed to demolish much of that, it is a vital part of the movement of materials and goods out of Trafford Park, whether we like it or not that is much more important to the area than a sports stadium
build it there
The next post literally has it built right over that section.
Any new build will be part of a much bigger regeneration project involving local government, so I don’t imagine land will be the issue. It’s more about the nuances of financing, getting tax credits, incentives, even some public money etc etc. I imagine the biggest game right now is political. I think financially and logistically there aren’t too many impediments to a new build or redevelopment, at least not ones that can’t be overcome easily enough. Now it’s more about how the project fits into the longer term picture of the club, the potential ROI, sources of financing, and of course the role of local and national government. Given the club has formed a task force with some local and national heavy hitters in politics and sports, and the connections of SJR, I imagine we’ll see some movement on this - the conceptual portion - soon enough.
Exciting times to be a United fan.
I must confess that I love the fan made maps of a potential stadium footprint.
Exciting times to be a United fan.
I must confess that I love the fan made maps of a potential stadium footprint.
The best answer is a new stadium that has a unique look to it, as opposed to the generic glass house looking stadiums we see now. We should easily be able to incorporate the red bricks around the bottom section of the stadium to give it the Manchester touch. In fact you could replicate the whole frontage of the current stadium into the new ground.
In terms of facilities, it will basically be a copy of the best stadiums. I don't think there is any debate there. As an Australian, I was blown away by the limited leg room when I first visited Old Trafford, but I found that a common issue in multiple stadiums around England. That will need to be improved.
In terms of facilities, it will basically be a copy of the best stadiums. I don't think there is any debate there. As an Australian, I was blown away by the limited leg room when I first visited Old Trafford, but I found that a common issue in multiple stadiums around England. That will need to be improved.
Yeah - the same size so no 100K capacity and no extras stuff eitherThe next post literally has it built right over that section.
You do realize the footprint needs to be bigger?
build it there
I would have thought the footprint would need to be much bigger. We'd be adding around 25k seats or 25% extra capacity, plus there will likely be more space between seats as one of the complaints about OT is it's too cramped, also larger concourses with food places etc
build it there
Not going to work. Footprint needs to be much bigger.
build it there
As I understand it we own the freight terminal, but I would expect we'd have to fund a new one to be built elsewhere (I'm sure I read there is a location where this is possible). The new stadium will likely be built on this ground, there isn't enough space not to. We'd probably use the tracks for a station.
Can't see how it's possible to build new next door and keep Old Trafford open in the meantime. Hope I'm wrong.
Might have to demolsih and groundshare or move away which I wouldn't like at all. Was playing around on Google maps, there's no obvious sites nearby even if we did move.
Might have to demolsih and groundshare or move away which I wouldn't like at all. Was playing around on Google maps, there's no obvious sites nearby even if we did move.
Knowing the area well after years of living and working there, I can't think of any other locations with enough space.
A fun thing to notice on Google maps is that it's match day - probably just before before kickoff. All the car parks are full and you can see people in the seats. I never noticed that before.
Yeah, I don't live too far way in Stretford. Was just scouting out potentials anyway.
Can't be knocking down a few blocks of Trafford Park warehouses and factories due to job losses. That wouldn't go down well.
Thought I spotted somwhere at the Trafford Centre, their overspill car park. It's near an empty patch of land too whcih could potentially be had and the BMW/Jaguar car showrooms on Barton Dock Rd that we'd probably have to buy up too. Good location with the motorway and metrolink now at the Trafford Centre. They'd be stupid to sell us that bit of the car park though, reducing their space and clogging up the remaining spaces with United fans on a matchday. The shoppers would have nowhere to park! Not going to happen.
On the other side of the Trafford Centre near Chill Factore there was a patch of land but they're building a fancy development on it called Trafford Waters right now. Perhaps too small anyway!
Gary Neville wanted to build training faciilities at Turn Moss in Stretford for Salford but that got knocked back after locals were protesting, wanting to preserve the green area. I wasn't protesting but I was glad, I like it there. Probably too small anyway and the roads round there couldn't cope with it.
They'd likely have to go all way out beyond where Salford rugby league club is up towards Worsley or even build it at Carrington if going for a new site.
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How about building over the canal for a new stadium or redevelopment? If we build a new ground...we'd probably have to knock down the Stretford End to allow for more space, regardless.
They built a massive Aldi near my old house within 6 months. Including dismantling the old site.
Why does this need to take 6 years?
Why does this need to take 6 years?
It will 100% be built next to the existing stadium.
So from ~74k to 100k... that's a small upgrade. Why can't we future proof it by building one capable of 1 million seater? we will have it sorted for the next 100 years.
Architectural and Engineering design will take majority of that time.