Very underwhelming and expected second round to be honest. After such an entertaining first round of the playoffs we basically experience the same shit we have seen over the past few season in the conference finals. Hope Miami don't win it again.
NBA Thread 2013-2014
- Thread starter Eboue
- Start date
I guess the debate about Chris Paul's "superstar" status is over, for now at least.
Still hasn't made it to a conference final 
Woohoo go OKC! Great game. Steve Adams was immense. Can't wait for their series with the Spurs.
The NBA Draft Lottery, which is used to determine pick order in the June draft, will be held on May 20.
Pick, Team, Probability
1. Bucks, 25.0%
2. 76ers, 19.9%
3. Magic, 15.6%
4. Celtics, 10.4%
5. Jazz, 10.3%
6. Lakers, 6.3%
7. Kings, 4.3%
8. Pistons, 2.8%
9. Cavaliers, 1.7%
10. Pelicans, 1.1%
11. Nuggets (via Knicks), 0.8%
12. Magic (via Denver Nuggets), 0.7%
13. Wolves, 0.6%
14. Suns, 0.5%
Pick, Team, Probability
1. Bucks, 25.0%
2. 76ers, 19.9%
3. Magic, 15.6%
4. Celtics, 10.4%
5. Jazz, 10.3%
6. Lakers, 6.3%
7. Kings, 4.3%
8. Pistons, 2.8%
9. Cavaliers, 1.7%
10. Pelicans, 1.1%
11. Nuggets (via Knicks), 0.8%
12. Magic (via Denver Nuggets), 0.7%
13. Wolves, 0.6%
14. Suns, 0.5%
Still hasn't made it to a conference final
Are you two on drugs?
He has been a superstar ever since he averaged 22 and 12 on 49% shooting while leading the league in steals at 22 years old. He has made 7 straight all star games and 3 All NBA First Team appearances in a time where the talent at the point guard position is better than it has ever been. He ranks third ALL TIME in assists per game. He ranks third ALL TIME in steals per game.
In this series he averaged 23 points, 13 assists and had more steals than turnovers. He shot 46% from 3 and 51% from the field. feck me, if you two clowns think it is his fault they lost.
Oh come off it, it's the whole debate again. Nobody denies CP3 is a superstar, we're just calling out on him for his lack of playoff success. And it's a fact that he still can't make it to a conference finals.
LeBron got flak when he lost in the NBA Finals when he was in Cleveland, CP3 gets almost nothing from the media about this, it's always about how his team-mates have failed him when his team crashes out in the playoffs and when they win, it's all about his great performance.
Well if his teammates haven't failed him (Matt Barnes did last night) then it's certainly not his fault. He outplayed Westbrook in the series. The other team has the Most Valuable Player. This was not an upset.
Anyone giving Lebron flak for losing to the Spurs in the finals is, frankly, a fecking idiot. Their seconds best player was Varejao. The Spurs had a hall of game trio in their prime and one of the best coaches of all time. Lebron had Mike Brown and played out of his mind to beat the Pistons in that double overtime game.
With Wall and Beal, this Wizards team has at least one conference final in their future. Very promising roster.
Have to hope they don't re-sign Ariza and Gortat.
It would be nice if they could replace Ariza, Gortat and Nene with a top player in the salary structure, get that third star ala the Heat.
Give them Kevin Love or another top big and they'd be right there.
Give them Kevin Love or another top big and they'd be right there.
Looking at the team--I think they need to upgrade at the 3. Beal, Wall, Gortat and Nene all come back as starters. They'll need a back-up big to spell Nene during his inevitable injury and also need a back-up PG, unless they think Temple can play. I think getting an upgrade for Ariza will make a difference--good defender but inconsistent scorer. He'll ask for too much money given what he does.
Hard to see who the Wiz would get in place of Gortat. Is he much more shit than what I saw over the past few games against the Pacers?
CP outplayed westbrook in this series? I think you need to lay off the crack Eboue. I hope OKC wins it this year but I kinda feel they haven't got enough to beat Miami and the Spurs would have a better shot in the Finals especially if Ibaka is not 100%.
He had a solid year-but had a rough series against the Pacers, except for game 5. I agree-not sure I want the Wiz to shake up the whole roster.
Overall-for me Ariza's the weakest link in the starting 5-we need a more consistent player at that position.
Should be a fun summer between United and the Wiz making moves.
Superstars win things or at least threaten to win things. If we're going by single season numbers then we'll have probably 50 active superstars right now, which is way too much. "Superstar" is the highest term we use to describe players, so we should reserve it for a small group of players, who have proven their quality by translating it into achievements.
This year Paul had a great team and a great coach, and he still couldn't make it to the conference finals?! I'm not even sure Paul was the Clippers' best player, Griffin scored more points and was more influential imo in term of elevating the level of the team. So I was going back and forth about it, but right now, no way I'm calling him a superstar.
Isiah Thomas has summed it up pretty nicely here, although I am ready to be a bit more flexible when a player doesn't win it all, but still threatened to win it multiple times and fell short in the end, only just.
And by the way, Isiah Thomas does not look like he's on drugs.
I think Chris Paul's failure to get to the conference finals just shows how strong the Western Conference has been in recent years. If you put the Clippers in the East they would get to the conference finals without breaking a sweat. The Clippers ran into a team that had the second best player in the league and the second best PG in the league.
Westbrook - 166 points, 53 assists, 11 steals, 25 turnovers, 36 rebounds
Chris Paul - 135 points, 72 assists, 15 steals, 14 turnovers, 22 rebounds
So let's start with steals and turnovers. Westbrook was -14 possessions while Paul was +1. That's a 15 possession difference. The Clippers averaged 1.09 points per possession this year and the Thunder averaged 1.08. So let's say that is worth 16 points.
Now let's move to the assists plus points. Paul actually shot 2% better than Westbrook but it's close enough that I will ignore it for now. Even assuming that each extra assist was only for a two pointer (they weren't), that is another 38 points for Paul. Brings us to 54 points right now. The remaining difference is that Westbrook had an extra 14 rebounds. If I again concede that 1) Westbrook getting the rebound was a rebound that only he could get and not one that another Thunder player could get and 2) every single rebound led to a made three pointer, that is only 42 points. Even with all of those concessions, Paul still had at least a 12 point edge.
Ibaka out for rest of the season. Pretty sure that ends the thunders hopes at the finals.
lol at the ongoing CP3 debate. It'll continue for a while, Kevin Love will probably get a Conference Finals before Paul does.
If they could beat Spurs without him, they could beat Heat or Pacers. I'm just wondering how they will line up now though.
I'm not judging on one year, I'm judging on 8 years. And I didn't ask him to win it all, just reach the conference finals.
In the last 8 years the East won 4 championships, and the West won 4.. 5 different teams won a championship and 9 different teams reached the finals since he joined the league, none of them had Paul on its roster (there are only 30 teams in the league!). There is a long queue of superstars who are still ahead of him right now..
And by the way, Paul also changed his team, got a better team and one of the best coaches in the league, and he still couldn't even come 2nd in the West.
If Paul doesn't improve his record and actually achieve something with his team, I don't see how he can be considered a "super"star.
Durant at PF, Collison in? I doubt Brooks will ever start small without Perkins either. The Spurs Thunder series will be interesting to say the least.
Chris Paul plays in what is possibly the best conference of all time. The Spurs have 3 hall of fame players and a hall of fame coach and Kahwi Leonard. The Thunder have the MVP and Westbrook and Ibaka. The Rockets have Harden and Howard and Parsons. And so on.
Tracy McGrady
Steve Nash
Dominuque Wilkins
Patrick Ewing
Charles Barkley
2 finals appearances, 0 rings between them. Tracy McGrady, who once averaged 32/7/6 on 46% shooting and had a PER over 30 (one of only 7 players ever to do that) for a team that was an 8 seed. He never got out of the first round. Michael Jordan averaged 37 points at age 23 but needed took 6 seasons to even reach the NBA Finals. Jordan's Bulls lost to the Bad Boys Pistons three consecutive years before making it over the hump. Those Pistons lost to Bird's Celtics twice before making it over the hump. Bird's Celtics lost to the Lakers twice. A Celtics team with Bird, Ainge, Parish, Maxwell and McHale got swept by the Milwaukee Bucks in the second round. Winning playoff series is really really hard. Chris Paul has had one single season with a competent coach and a team whose second best player is not David West. And they gave the Thunder a really tough series that could very easily still be going on.
Any definition that doesn't include Chris Paul as a superstar is flat out wrong.
Lebron James
Kevin Durant
Those are the players that are definitely better than him. Unless you think there are only two superstars in the NBA, there is no argument to be made from excluding Paul.
P.S. I'm not watching any video that features Skip Bayless.
OKC aren't going to beat SA without Ibaka. No chance.
SA will win it all this season. They will make up for last year's devastating loss.
2nd Best Player On Chris Paul's Team
2006 - David West
2007 - David West
2008 - David West
2009 - David West
2010 - David West
2011 - David West
2012 - Blake Griffin
2013 - Blake Griffin
2014 - Blake Griffin
2012 they won the first round and then lost to #1 seeded San Antonio.
2013 they lost to a Memphis team with the same record as them.
Both of those years they had Vinny Del Negro at coach.
I think everyone would agree that you can't expect conference finals from a team that either 1) has Vinny Del Negro as coach or 2) has David West as the second best player.
So you really ARE judging him on one year.
I honestly think Thunder still have a chance to get by Spurs. They are still underdogs without Ibaka, but it's not impossible. I actually thinking not having Serge would have hurt more against Grizzlies or Clippers than against Spurs. If Perk stays on Duncan (which historically he does a good job against) and OKC rotate guys like Adams, Collison, and Jones on Splitter, then the defense won't get totally killed. Because Spurs aren't as physical, the Ibaka loss isn't as bad as it could have been. Also if KD plays full time power forward and Collison starts, with Reggie getting more minutes than usual, then OKC's ball movement will actually improve without Ibaka.
All this is theory and who knows what could happen. I just believe that no Ibaka against Memphis or LAC would have been a death sentence, but here it just makes things a bit harder. Plus, the insanely talented duo of KD and Russ might just be absurdly good enough to drag them through it.
Prediction though? Spurs in 7.
McGrady is not a superstar imo. He's a star. We'll never know what he could have accomplished had he not struggled with injuries, but as far as his career went I'm not calling him a superstar.
Steve Nash has done way more than Paul. He reached the conference finals more than once. He won the league MVP twice. He has all time records to his name...
It's a simple equation. I'm not choosing the "conference finals" arbitrarily. I just want to give the player another chance for going against an all time great every single time, which would probably give him a pass. But if he can't even make it to the conference finals, then the field of players who are ahead of him becomes too big.
It's also absurd to say that only James and Durant are ahead of him in term of status among the current players. It's actually a looooong list.
Easily:
Parker
Duncan
Westbrook
Wade
Pierce
Garnett
Nowitzki
Bryant
...
As for the future, we never know. Unless he achieves more, he will never touch any of those names.
He tried two teams and multiple coaches/teammates. This year was one year too many (especially considering the great team and the great coach he had). He needs to pick it up and do much better in the coming years.
By the way, who was Dallas' second best player after Nowitzki (both in 2006 and 2011)?
I actually meant that Paul is the third best player in the league right now. But let's go ahead and use your names.
Parker - Never played a season without Duncan
Duncan - Never played a season without Robinson or Parker
Westbrook - Never played a season without Durant
Wade - 1 playoff series win without Shaq or Lebron (a 7 game series against a 41-41 Hornets team)
Pierce - 3 playoff series wins without Garnett, all of them coming in those horrible early 2000s Eastern Conferences
Garnett - 2 playoff series wins without Pierce (his Timberwolves actually lost in the first round for 7 straight years, I remember people saying he was a playoff choker)
Nowitzki - The sole guy on this list to actually win without a superstar teammate
Bryant - Never won a playoff series without Shaq or Gasol
He was stuck with a horrible team that he was drafted with. This is the sole year he hasn't had a horrible coach or a horrible set of teammates.
In 2006, Jason Terry actually shot 41% on 5 threes per game. Amazing really. In 2011 it was Tyson Chandler. He was a beast defensively and actually won DPOTY the following season.
That's a poor logic. Jordan also never won without Pippen, so? Those guys did win in the end. Their desire to win did make them do all what's needed to win in the end, even if that meant moving to another team, which Paul did by the way, but still failed to improve his record.
And by the way, all those players (except Westbrook) won MVP awards, something Paul didn't even come close to winning.
In fact, and this says it all really, this year the player who came third in the MVP race was Griffin! How can he be considered a superstar already if he's not even the best player in a team that failed to win anything?!
No offense, son, but that's some weak-ass thinking. You equivocatin' like a motherfeck!
Can Westbrook not be considered a superstar since Durant is better? Could Kobe not be considered a superstar since Shaq was better? Chris Paul actually finished 2nd in MVP voting once and has 3 additional Top 5 finishes. You really ought to do some research.
But those players fecking won something at least! What's so difficult to understand there? Paul is the second best player in a team that failed!
Your bias towards Paul is mind-boggling.
And by the way, I didn't say Westbrook is a superstar already, I just said he's definitely ahead of Paul right now.
P.S. you probably need to review the meaning of "came close to winning".
They fecking won something because they had other stars on their team! Something Chris Paul has not had the benefit of until this year! And when the other guys won with stars on their team, they didn't win immediately! Larry Bird was on a team that got swept in the conference semis with Parrish Ainge and McHale for teammates! Larry fecking Bird!
I have no bias toward anyone except Rasheed Wallace. Being a fan of a team that hasn't been remotely competitive for many years now allows you to see things clearly. If you don't think Westbrook is a superstar (he is, obviously, and so is Paul) then your definition of superstar is far too narrow.
Let's just end it here and at least agree that we have different views about the definitions of the words.
In my opinion, the unofficial ranks should be 'NBA player', 'good player', 'great player', 'star' and 'superstar'. Superstar is the highest ceiling we have and I think it should be reserved for the players who have done something special.
Give me a list of players who are playing at superstar level now (so no Nowitzki or Garnett).
I think now I pinpointed the difference between us.
Superstar-dom is not a level of play, it's a measurement for achievement (for me at least). I think what you're trying to say is that Paul has the talent required for a player to become a superstar. And I agree, I think he can very well become a superstar. However, imo, he's not there yet. He hasn't ticked any boxes so far.
There are many players who showed a lot of talent, but in the end they didn't make it count, and that's imo what separates stars from superstars.
What you said actually was more worthy of laughing at, but out of respect I replied with a serious post.
Many players have spells where they play at "superstar" level, but then fade away or fail to make it count, are we going to call them all superstars forever?! That's actually beyond silly.
Oh and by the way, your beloved Paul hasn't even played at a superstar level this year.
Durant, James, Griffin, Harden, Westbrook, and many others all played at a higher level.