NBA 2023-2024

[TheMagicFoolBus]

So I see Wembanyama is seen as a generational prospect, and that he was first draft pick to the Spurs. I also see they’re bottom. Does someone like this usually get a trade pretty early on? How do trades work and does it have to be a trade? They can’t just buy someone?

Must be a bit shit to be the best at college level and then get drafted onto the shittiest team. But I guess it means you stand out too.

Players rarely move early on if they're good - the team that drafted them (if it's a first round pick) gets them on a 2 year contract initially with a team option for years 3 and 4 (almost always exercised). The other important thing to know about NBA contracts is that there are limits on the amount of money that can be offered to players - this is all very complicated and is all collectively bargained, but effectively one important thing is that a team can (almost) always offer a more lucrative contract to a player to re-sign with them compared to any other team. This makes it even more likely that Wemby will stay with the Spurs beyond his initial rookie deal.

The other thing to know about NBA trades is that the salaries of the players being traded have to match (the margin of error here depends on numerous factors, including the annual value of the contracts being traded, the total salaries of the teams involved, etc).

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Ah ok cheers! So the player they lost to the Hawks, did they trade him? Do they have to do it or can they force them to stay?

Also if teams gets two draft picks each season what happens to their roster? Do they have to move people on?

They traded him to the Hawks and got a huge return - they could have forced him to stay but that could potentially impact their ability to sign free agents, they could be blackballed by player representatives, etc.

The NBA is hugely ruled by player power (in large part because the NBA, unlike football, is a strong-link sport and not a weak-link sport). This results in the vast majority of teams being unwilling to deal with a disgruntled player - so when someone requests a trade, usually the team will try to find one.

 

[RORY65]

Ah ok cheers! So the player they lost to the Hawks, did they trade him? Do they have to do it or can they force them to stay?

Also if teams gets two draft picks each season what happens to their roster? Do they have to move people on?

They traded him because they weren't good anyway so he wanted out and they decided it would be better in the long run to swap him for picks to go further into a rebuild. The teams can trade players without getting the players approval to the deal but that rarely happens just because the team acquiring the player won't necessarily want someone who doesn't want to be there and will likely leave when they get the chance.

Some of the picks likely won't work out in that case and even if a lot of them do then teams will likely consolidate 2 or 3 of them together to go and trade for a bigger star. It feels as if OKC, who still have a ton of picks in the next few years and who already have a tremendous young team with plenty of depth, are waiting for the star they want to become available and then will make a trade for some of their younger players who are very talented but clearly not going to become stars there when behind multiple other elite young players.

 

[WeePat]

Ah ok cheers! So the player they lost to the Hawks, did they trade him? Do they have to do it or can they force them to stay?

Also if teams gets two draft picks each season what happens to their roster? Do they have to move people on?

Yeah, teams move players on all the time. There’s a salary cap so you can’t pay everyone. There’s essentially two ways to get a good team. Trade for players with assets and draft picks or do it the more organic way and draft your talent and develop them yourself. The Warriors built a dynasty with a core of players they drafted and developed and they’ve spent their whole careers there (Draymond Green, Curry and Thompson).

My team were tanking the last 3 years, so we were literally a bottom 3 team, some years the literal worst team in the league. We drafted 5 players in the first round in 2021, only two of them remain on the team today. We drafted 2 players in the first round in 2022 and then again in 2023. As a result, we’re one of the upcoming teams with a huge group of young talent. Eventually we’ll have to pay them, and the team will have to make some difficult choices about who they pay what. Obviously this is all dependent on how well the players develop. Sengun will get a rookie max, while Jalen Green (the number 2 pick from 2021) has not developed as well as hoped so he will likely not get the contact he wants next year, so it’s a bit of a crossroads for him and the team.

Teams often draft players and then move them on because a particular star player became available. The Clippers drafted SGA, then included him a trade package to get Paul George. A few years down the line and now SGA has developed into a much better player than George and his new team have become one the top teams in the west .

 

[Solius]

Cheers all! Makes a bit more sense now. Been watching some videos of the history of it all and certain other aspects.

 

[Solius]

So what’s up with Golden State this season and why did they just play the Raptors if they’re in separate conferences?

 

[T00lsh3d]

Cheers all! Makes a bit more sense now. Been watching some videos of the history of it all and certain other aspects.

I’ve been getting into basketball more over the past year. The rules on transfers and squad building are such a challenge after years of football

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

So what’s up with Golden State this season and why did they just play the Raptors if they’re in separate conferences?

Every team plays everyone - but the total number of times is different. To get to 82 games played, the total is:

- 4 games against the other 4 teams in your division (16 total)
- 4 games against 6 non-division conference teams (24 games)
- 3 games against the other 4 non-division conference teams (12 games - this rotates every year on a 5 year cycle)
- 2 games against every team in the other conference (30 games)

 

[RORY65]

So what’s up with Golden State this season and why did they just play the Raptors if they’re in separate conferences?

Every team plays the sides from the other conference twice (once home and once away). They then play the sides in their division 4 times and the rest of their conference either 3 or 4 times.

With the Warriors it's mainly that they're getting old, one of their main stars (Klay Thompson) isn't the same player anymore as he's aged and had serious injuries while another (Draymond Green) keeps getting suspended for his conduct and even Steph Curry is still amazing but approaching 36, and then the younger players who were meant to bridge the gap have either not improved enough or in fact have regressed. Due to injuries and other circumstances they ended up with the 2nd pick in 2020 and then the 7th and 14th picks in 2021 and those players were supposed to give them a real boost but they've already dumped the guy they picked 2nd in the draft and still don't know whether their 2 picks in 2021 are going to be impactful players.

I personally think they should move them on while they still have value and see if they can get someone better back to try to have another run with Curry, they're not likely to have a player as good as him again for a very long time, but they've seemed uncertain ever since they won the title 2 years ago whether to go all in on the present or to hope one of those young players can be their future.

 

[Beans]

So what’s up with Golden State this season and why did they just play the Raptors if they’re in separate conferences?

You play everyone, conferences are for playoffs, though I do think you play those in your division more often.

 

[charlton66]

I think Chris Paul may have played his last game for the Dubs. His hand injury will take 4-6 weeks to recover from and that takes him past the trade deadline. I see a team looking to dump salary picking him up because of his expiring contract. Since they don't really want him long term the hand injury won't be a factor in any trade.

 

[Charlie Foley]

So what’s up with Golden State this season and why did they just play the Raptors if they’re in separate conferences?

This might help

https://en.as.com/nba/how-is-the-nba-schedule-made-rules-and-formula-n-2/?outputType=amp

 

[SinNombre]

I think Chris Paul may have played his last game for the Dubs. His hand injury will take 4-6 weeks to recover from and that takes him past the trade deadline. I see a team looking to dump salary picking him up because of his expiring contract. Since they don't really want him long term the hand injury won't be a factor in any trade.

He is one of the few positive players we have. We need to trade one of Wiggins or Kuminga - the two of them together is always a disaster. And Moody while he is still considered a positive asset with upside potential.

 

[SinNombre]

Guessing the Bulls would ask for at least Kuminga plus a first round pick down the line which could be incredibly valuable given where GS's best players are career arc-wise. Pretty steep price for a team that isn't even in the play-in right now.

Caruso's trade value is immense because literally every contender could use him and he's on a very team-friendly deal. GS has the assets to get him but dunno if they have the appetite - especially if the rumours are true that Lacob loves Kuminga.

No one is going to pay that much for Caruso. GS' FRP post 2026 are projected top-10 picks. I don't see the Warriors going above Moody + 1 FRP

 

[charlton66]

He is one of the few positive players we have. We need to trade one of Wiggins or Kuminga - the two of them together is always a disaster. And Moody while he is still considered a positive asset with upside potential.

I agree that he's done well but there's no way the Dubs are picking up his 30 million dollar salary for next year. They signed him to dump Poole's salary. They're not going turn round and pay even more for a 39 year old injury prone back up PG, especially when Klay is also looking for a new contract.

 

[elmo]

Ja out for the season with an injury

 

[adexkola]

Yep might as well tank for a center and some depth now.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

No one is going to pay that much for Caruso. GS' FRP post 2026 are projected top-10 picks. I don't see the Warriors going above Moody + 1 FRP

The starting price for Caruso is probably 2 FRPs given how many contenders could use him, especially teams like the Thunder. No shot the Bulls take Moody and a first only.

 

[Solius]

So how does everyone follow it? Pick a team? Feels like there’s about 6 games every single day. I followed the NBA twitter account but when I scrolled this morning there were so many updates. How do you stay across it?

 

[Jim Beam]

So how does everyone follow it? Pick a team? Feels like there’s about 6 games every single day. I followed the NBA twitter account but when I scrolled this morning there were so many updates. How do you stay across it?

There are more than 6 on certain days. If you have favorite team, you mostly follow them. Am probably one of the rare ones who doesn't have it and have interest in few of them along with some big clashes that happen every few days (Celtics - Bucks would be a game I wouldn't miss for example). Often I pick one game am interested before I go to sleep and watch it in the morning through replay. Not sure why I even bothered with staying up sometimes before.

You do have to take into account that all this regular stuff is just a prelude to the main thing which are the playoffs. Come playoffs everything changes... the officiating, the intensity and stakes go way higher. It is almost a different game and there are no more easy walks to the basket for anyone (even Giannis). I think just by following it you will find teams that interest you more, you will check their games more often and so on. Then come playoff, you'll get hooked when the real thing starts.

 

[Solius]

There are more than 6 on certain days. If you have favorite team, you mostly follow them. Am probably one of the rare ones who doesn't have it and have interest in few of them along with some big clashes that happen every few days (Celtics - Bucks would be a game I wouldn't miss for example). Often I pick one game am interested before I go to sleep and watch it in the morning through replay. Not sure why I even bothered with staying up sometimes before.

You do have to take into account that all this regular stuff is just a prelude to the main thing which are the playoffs. Come playoffs everything changes... the officiating, the intensity and stakes go way higher. It is almost a different game and there are no more easy walks to the basket for anyone (even Giannis). I think just by following it you will find teams that interest you more, you will check their games more often and so on. Then come playoff, you'll get hooked when the real thing starts.

Yeah this is basically when I started paying attention in Toronto. Does feel a bit weird that essentially 2/3 of the season don't matter that much. I guess it's like an extended CL group stage but it feels like the equivalent of watching a confusing and long movie and someone saying "stick with it it's got a good ending."

 

[RobinLFC]

Yeah this is basically when I started paying attention in Toronto. Does feel a bit weird that essentially 2/3 of the season don't matter that much. I guess it's like an extended CL group stage but it feels like the equivalent of watching a confusing and long movie and someone saying "stick with it it's got a good ending."

To be fair this is the worst possible time of the year to be following the NBA regular season. The excitement of "the start of the season" is gone, the (first-ever) in-season tournament has passed, and it's too early (still before the All-Star break at the moment) for the playoff race to have truly started.

The NBA knows that they have too many (meaningless) regular season games, with lots of load management for star players and stuff like that. That's why they created the in-season tournament, which was a success to be fair, but the 82 games are still an issue as it's indeed all just a big prelude to the playoffs.

I'd say just watch highlights of the interesting / close games, watch the daily top 10 plays, ... and you'll soon get a feeling for which teams and players you like. Then you can focus on those from there on out. But the playoffs (mid-April) is the pinnacle and a different ball game altogether, the intensity both on the field and from the crowd gets a lot higher.

 

[Jim Beam]

Yeah this is basically when I started paying attention in Toronto. Does feel a bit weird that essentially 2/3 of the season don't matter that much. I guess it's like an extended CL group stage but it feels like the equivalent of watching a confusing and long movie and someone saying "stick with it it's got a good ending."

Aye, pretty much what it is! Before I even thought there is nothing much to watch during regular season and at times it is difficult to argue against it, especially when they start with load management bs as Robin said (resting players because, well, some of them don't like to play that regular either) or because the intensity sometimes visibly low in certain parts of the games/season, etc...

But, I do find some joy and mostly in following teams that are young and developing to see if they can reach the playoffs, judge their potential and so on. Which would be Magic, Rockets and most of all Thunder this season. Also, if you focus on certain games you can easily pick the most interesting to come. As an illustration, just in the next 7 days there are Celtics - Wolves, Bucks - Celtics, Lakers - Suns, Bucks - Warriors, Wolves - Clippers, 76ers - Nuggets scheduled.

Buuuuuut... yeah, everyone pretty much waites for the playoffs and that good ending.

 

[WeePat]

Aye, pretty much what it is! Before I even thought there is nothing much to watch during regular season and at times it is difficult to argue against it, especially when they start with load management bs as Robin said (resting players because, well, some of them don't like to play that regular either) or because the intensity sometimes visibly low in certain parts of the games/season, etc...

But, I do find some joy and mostly in following teams that are young and developing to see if they can reach the playoffs, judge their potential and so on. Which would be Magic, Rockets and most of all Thunder this season. Also, if you focus on certain games you can easily pick the most interesting to come. As an illustration, just in the next 7 days there are Celtics - Wolves, Bucks - Celtics, Lakers - Suns, Bucks - Warriors, Wolves - Clippers, 76ers - Nuggets scheduled.

Buuuuuut... yeah, everyone pretty much waites for the playoffs and that good ending.

If you follow a specific team, regular season is only boring if you already know you're pretty much guaranteed a playoff spot. When we had Harden, I used to find the regular season exactly as you describe, the prelude to the playoffs where I knew we were going to be squaring up to the Warriors at some point. Now though, when every single win/loss is crucial as we aim for a play-in spot, I'm much more locked into the ebbs and flows of regular season.

If you're the Nuggets, Celtics, Bucks etc though, you probably don't pay that much attention to the regular season until after ASW.

 

[WeePat]

Ricky Rubio retiring recently reminded me of this from a few years ago when Harden's step back 3 was so devastating, it forced the Jazz into this rather peculiar attempt to take it away. They would rather gift wrap him an easy lay up than let him stand there and drain 3s

 

[charlton66]

Ricky Rubio retiring recently reminded me of this from a few years ago when Harden's step back 3 was so devastating, it forced the Jazz into this rather peculiar attempt to take it away. They would rather gift wrap him an easy lay up than let him stand there and drain 3s

Knowing Harden, he'd probably drive to the basket for an easy lay up and then somehow manage to get his arm entangled in a defenders (or kick out a foot, or numerous other underhanded plays to draw a foul) and get the 3 points anyway.

 

[WeePat]

Knowing Harden, he'd probably drive to the basket for an easy lay up and then somehow manage to get his arm entangled in a defenders (or kick out a foot, or numerous other underhanded plays to draw a foul) and get the 3 points anyway.

You seem very bitter about Harden which is strange because you beat him every single time it mattered. The Warriors were Harden and the Rockets' kryptonite.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

A question regardring trades and salaries:
If you include draft picks - how does this affect the salary aspect of it all?
Say I want to trade a player with a $30 mill salary, how does the picks included in return affect the amount of salary I have to take on?

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

A question regardring trades and salaries:
If you include draft picks - how does this affect the salary aspect of it all?
Say I want to trade a player with a $30 mill salary, how does the picks included in return affect the amount of salary I have to take on?

Draft picks are independent of salary - but this is where expiring contracts come into play.

Paradoxically, a lot of the time players on big deals whose contract is nearing an end are often used to match salaries - so a team trying to win will trade a large expiring contract plus multiple draft picks for a good player on a bad team who wants to rebuild.

 

[charlton66]

You seem very bitter about Harden which is strange because you beat him every single time it mattered. The Warriors were Harden and the Rockets' kryptonite.

"Bitter" is not the right word. "Dislike" is more appropriate. I think he's never remotely been a team player, but more than anything else at the "peak" of his powers with all the shenanigans he pulled to get fouls, I thought he was a cheat.

Embiid, slowly but surely is managing to reach those same heights for me. Grabbing, flopping, selling calls should not be part of the game.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

Draft picks are independent of salary - but this is where expiring contracts come into play.

Paradoxically, a lot of the time players on big deals whose contract is nearing an end are often used to match salaries - so a team trying to win will trade a large expiring contract plus multiple draft picks for a good player on a bad team who wants to rebuild.

Alright, thanks. Makes sense - but also doesn't.
A pick should at least be worth the max rookie salary, median rookie salary or something.

 

[MrMarcello]

I mean it happens every year. Jordan was drafted by a bad Bulls team, Morant by a bad Grizzlies team, SGA to a bad Thunder team, LeBron to a bad Cavs team. They usually don't get a trade, Spurs have his rights for 4 years IIRC.

You can't buy players, league has to approve the trades as fair.

Spurs have been bad for a bit so they should have a decent set of players, but they lost the best one to the Hawks. He passed on the significantly better contact the Spurs could offer to get out. Orlando has been bad so long they're now full of young talent and good again, Kings did the same recently, Wolves as well.

I can see Wemby leaving the Spurs as soon as he can if they don't build a good team in the next 3-4 years.

It's worth noting that sometimes the overall worst team doesn't get the top pick due to the lottery nonsense, and sometimes not even in the top 3-5 bottom teams. The 92-93 Orlando Magic barely missed the playoffs at 41-41 and lucked out in the lottery with the top pick, traded the pick to drop down to third and drafted Hardaway... the year after drafting Shaq after winning the lottery despite Minnesota having had a worse season.

The Mavs were atrocious from 1991 to 1994 and never once got the luck in the lottery despite having the worst record in 92-93 and 93-94.

Spurs lucked out in 1997 after finishing with the third worst record in the league, after winning 50+ games each year from 89-90 to 95-96 because of Robinson who got hurt in the sixth game and missed the year. That luck altered the course of three franchises - Boston, San Antonio, and Vancouver - as the latter drafted Duncan first overall, the Celtics finished third and took Billups (he peaked with Detroit), and Vancouver got fecked to fourth overall and took Daniels. Had Boston got the top pick it's probable they put together a dominant force in the East with Duncan, Mercer, Walker trio along with whatever moves they would have made having Duncan on the roster. Vancouver may have put together a solid squad and may have held fan interest thus not losing money each season and perhaps stayed put; that said, the new owner was likely going to move anyhow. Spurs probably never become the Spurs as we know without Duncan in the 2000s.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

A lot of knowledgeable people in here, so I ask more questions regardring salaries:
How does a team get to be a whooping $90 mill above the cap (GSW), with all the rules regarding trades, free agents etc?
I know it's a soft cap, so you're allowed to be above the cap for a luxury tax etc, but how are the teams able to get this far above the cap?
I know teams are trying to free up cap space to sign X and Y free agents, but if a team can be 90 mill above the cap, why do they even need to free up cap space?
What mechanisms allows for such big "breaches" of the cap - when you can't sign free agents if you don't have the available cap space (not thinking about veteran minimums etc here)?

Never mind that 28 out of 30 teams have negative cap space, with Utah and Indiana being the only exceptions. Even the Spurs and Pistons are above!

 

[Charlie Foley]

You seem very bitter about Harden which is strange because you beat him every single time it mattered. The Warriors were Harden and the Rockets' kryptonite.

I mean you’ve disproven your own point here. Hardly bitterness when we beat him all the time. You can still dislike someone and it not be bitter. Not like Harden gets more praise than Steph either, at times he’s been a figure of fun in the league

 

[RORY65]

A lot of knowledgeable people in here, so I ask more questions regardring salaries:
How does a team get to be a whooping $90 mill above the cap (GSW), with all the rules regarding trades, free agents etc?
I know it's a soft cap, so you're allowed to be above the cap for a luxury tax etc, but how are the teams able to get this far above the cap?
I know teams are trying to free up cap space to sign X and Y free agents, but if a team can be 90 mill above the cap, why do they even need to free up cap space?
What mechanisms allows for such big "breaches" of the cap - when you can't sign free agents if you don't have the available cap space (not thinking about veteran minimums etc here)?

Never mind that 28 out of 30 teams have negative cap space, with Utah and Indiana being the only exceptions. Even the Spurs and Pistons are above!

You can exceed the cap if you have the "Bird Rights" to a player, this being that if you have the player for at least 3 years then you can offer them any deal. It's called Bird Rights because it was brought in in the 1980s when the Celtics had a very strong team and meant that they could keep their group together and especially retain their star player, Larry Bird.

Essentially it's a way of keeping teams together rather than being in a situation where fans get attached to someone but a team can't keep them because they have a couple of other good players and therefore have no cap space left. However, you can't sign free agents from other teams to huge deals if you're already over the cap, then you're restricted to minimum deals and the mid-level exception (which depends on how far you are over the cap) so it's crucial to draft well because your own draft picks are the ones you can pay as much as you like to either build around or trade for another big contract down the line.

The other thing to bare in mind is how big the team's revenues are and how willing the owners are to pay significant wage bills. The Warriors and the Thunder both drafted very well but while the Warriors got lucky with events that meant they were able to get Durant in free agency they also had an owner who was willing to spend whatever it took to keep that group together. The Thunder on the other hand were cheap and didn't want to pay someone who ended up being MVP for the Rockets, I hope for them that they don't make the same mistakes with the really exciting young team they have now.

 

[charlton66]

A lot of knowledgeable people in here, so I ask more questions regardring salaries:
How does a team get to be a whooping $90 mill above the cap (GSW), with all the rules regarding trades, free agents etc?
I know it's a soft cap, so you're allowed to be above the cap for a luxury tax etc, but how are the teams able to get this far above the cap?
I know teams are trying to free up cap space to sign X and Y free agents, but if a team can be 90 mill above the cap, why do they even need to free up cap space?
What mechanisms allows for such big "breaches" of the cap - when you can't sign free agents if you don't have the available cap space (not thinking about veteran minimums etc here)?

Bird exception. A team may re-sign it's own free agent to a contract with a first year salary of up to the maximum player salary if he played for the team for some or all of each of the prior three consecutive seasons. There are other caveats, but that's the big one.

 

[Solius]

If you follow a specific team, regular season is only boring if you already know you're pretty much guaranteed a playoff spot. When we had Harden, I used to find the regular season exactly as you describe, the prelude to the playoffs where I knew we were going to be squaring up to the Warriors at some point. Now though, when every single win/loss is crucial as we aim for a play-in spot, I'm much more locked into the ebbs and flows of regular season.

If you're the Nuggets, Celtics, Bucks etc though, you probably don't pay that much attention to the regular season until after ASW.

What's so great about the All Star stuff? Is it not just a bit like a charity game? Sure all the best play (I'm assuming) but is the prize that prestigious?

 

[elmo]

What's so great about the All Star stuff? Is it not just a bit like a charity game? Sure all the best play (I'm assuming) but is the prize that prestigious?

No. The all star games is a fecking joke. The only reasons players even bother showing up for it is because the contract they’re eligible for is dependant on them being an all star.

It’s like those random polls online for the PL team of the decade and you’ve Liverpool players flooding the list because their fans are the only ones bored enough to spam votes.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Alright, thanks. Makes sense - but also doesn't.
A pick should at least be worth the max rookie salary, median rookie salary or something.

Part of the problem with that is that picks are traded before knowing where they'll fall in the first round (or sometimes will be conditional and turn into a second rounder, for instance) - and the rookie scale varies based on where a pick falls in the first round.

Sometimes this is part of why a team will draft a European player early though - that player can continue playing on their current deal in Europe with no impact on the NBA team's salary.

 

[WeePat]

"Bitter" is not the right word. "Dislike" is more appropriate. I think he's never remotely been a team player, but more than anything else at the "peak" of his powers with all the shenanigans he pulled to get fouls, I thought he was a cheat.

Embiid, slowly but surely is managing to reach those same heights for me. Grabbing, flopping, selling calls should not be part of the game.

Dislike then. And fair enough, I understand most people didn't like him at his peak. I'd say a lot of players (including some of the most beloved players in the league) played like Harden on some level and still do but got none of the flak.

But I think to describe him a 'never been a team player' is way off the mark. The iso stuff was encouraged in Houston. MDA lent heavily into Harden being one of the best of all time at scoring. MDA has said so himself, and several Rockets players from that era have also said it. Since he left Houston, he was willing to take a backseat to KD being the main scorer on the Nets. He was happy just being the facilitator for Embiid and Maxey in Philly and he's again more of a facilitator to Kawhi and PG in LA than trying to get 30 a night for himself.

Tell me another star player that has played with this many different other star players and adapted almost seamlessly to each situation? And how does that match up with the notion that he's never remotely been a team player?