NBA 2016-17

Paul on the spurs might be enough to topple the warriors I think, and definitely enough to smash the Cavs.
 
charlton66 said:
I'm hoping (really, really, really hoping) that a big part of wanting to give Russ the MVP is that he's done something that hasn't been done in 60 odd years. If he does it again next year, I'm hoping (really, really, really hoping) that it will be looked at as kind of old news - especially when his team continues to win less than 50 games.
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First player ever to average triple double in two consecutive seasons.

He could also be aiming for an average of 40 PPG probably. I don't get why he did not do that already this season though, not like anything was keeping him from 40 PPG. Or actually it did, because he needed those 10 assists per game to get his average, maybe next year instead of triple double he will target 40-45 PPG averaged. If you convert that 10 assists into shots (and all failed attempts at an assist, so it's basically him trying to get an assist about 20 times or something), it can easily be converted into additional 10 points a game with his FG%. Add that on top of his 35 PPG average and you have a pretty amazing average.
 
Sarni said:
First player ever to average triple double in two consecutive seasons.

He could also be aiming for an average of 40 PPG probably. I don't get why he did not do that already this season though, not like anything was keeping him from 40 PPG. Or actually it did, because he needed those 10 assists per game to get his average, maybe next year instead of triple double he will target 40-45 PPG averaged. If you convert that 10 assists into shots (and all failed attempts at an assist, so it's basically him trying to get an assist about 20 times or something), it can easily be converted into additional 10 points a game with his FG%. Add that on top of his 35 PPG average and you have a pretty amazing average.
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Oh God! Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.....................
 
charlton66 said:
This, in a nutshell. I've vacillated back and forth all season on whether he deserves it or not but either way it's a really pointless debate about a really pointless player. Just give him the damn thing and move on. Also please God let's consign the most useless statistic in basketball history to the sporting scrapheap - the triple double. Wtf - when your usage rate is higher than your shooting percentage and people are patting you on the back, something's wrong.
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Why is it a useless statistic? Until this season it's been recognized as an indicator that someone's performance in a game is most likely outstanding.
 
adexkola said:
Why is it a useless statistic? Until this season it's been recognized as an indicator that someone's performance in a game is most likely outstanding.
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It's selective bias of the highest level, nothing else.

That 37 point game mention has to be a pisstake, but hey, FOX SPORTS mentioned it!
 
adexkola said:
Why is it a useless statistic? Until this season it's been recognized as an indicator that someone's performance in a game is most likely outstanding.
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If you look at Westbrook's overall performance in the playoffs where he averaged his vaunted triple double I think that answers your question. His usage rate was 46.6% which was higher than his FG% (37.3%). He shot an absolutely pitiful 25.8% from 3 point range yet was in the top 10 for 3 point attempts and his fourth quarter stats were abhorrent.

If Steven Adams had been allowed to answer that infamous question at the podium he could have easily said "We suck because once Russ is off the court we don't know what to do. We rarely practice any sets that don't go through him and for the most part we are all out of rhythm by the time we actually get to play without him. No wonder the guys can't shoot. It's worse on defense. We spend all our time boxing out so that he can get his rebounds and when he's not there it affects how we play."

If I was Russ, I wouldn't have let him speak either.

Statistics matter, when you don't know that they matter. Oscar Robertson's triple doubles were much more impressive because he didn't even know he was achieving them. They came within the flow of the game. Russ didn't just chase the numbers, he was on a galloping horse hunting them down. In the normal flow of the game triple doubles are a great indicator of performance. Westbrook's season this year was anything but normal.
 
Moby said:
Says the guy who is dragging on the discussion.

Sorry but that entire post is pretty embarrassing for someone as knowledgable as you.
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To be honest, I'm just tired of this whole triple double discussion, but as I've pointed out to you before "sometimes I just don't know when to let it go."
 
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charlton66 said:
To be honest, I'm just tired of this whole triple double discussion, but to be honest as I've pointed out to you before "sometimes I just don't know when to let it go."
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That's okay, but you can't stop others from talking about it because of whatever agenda you have against him.
 
charlton66 said:
I don't actually. I'm just tired of the same back and forth debate as to whether he deserves the MVP or not. Like @Kasper said, just give it to him so we don't have to do this again. The sum total of his season is that he's taken a mediocre team to one playoff win and beaten a 60 year old record that the holder of said record didn't realize what he'd accomplished until 15 years later when the NBA went back and started adding up totals. Back in Oscar's day it was just wins and losses that counted. These days unfortunately, "it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game."
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That's a short sight to look at it IMO. Reaching the playoff for OKC with such a roster and a coach is a miracle itself.. Doing all these numbers in such a team is a miracle. He overachieved with what is surrounding him imo. The other MVP candidates are playing in better teams than him with better teammates while he's struggling in such a team. He did his job.
 
altodevil86 said:
Paul is incredible, just too bad he is a whiney fecker. Spurs bound?
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It would be the perfect team for him, as...

*segways to Spurs-Grizzlies series*

... Parker no longer is consistently good to face other elite PGs in the West in a competitive series. He (and Patty Mills) have been getting roasted by Conley, to the point that in game 5, Kawhi (a small forward) finally was placed on Conley full time to try and stem the bleeding. Also, the Spurs have regressed from the free flowing ball moving offense that won a title in 2014. They run many isos through Lamarcus or Kawhi. CP3 will improve them on both ends from the PG position if he decides to join them.

Revised prediction: Grizzlies will win game 6. The Grindhouse will be a cauldron, and our defense will be much better. Kawhi will get his regardless, but they'll just fall short.

Game 7: Up in the air, but advantage Spurs. Unless Gasol pulls his thumb out his ass and brings it on both ends of the floor. Clippers won game 7 in San Antonio 2 years ago (?) so it's possible.
 
ZDwyr said:
Westbrook won't be averaging a triple double next season. This season was his year to do it and win the MVP. Durant left, the Thunder needed something to feel good about, and they weren't getting near the title. All these things were the perfect storm for Russ. It's an awesome achievement, despite what the naysayers say. He kept the Thunder relevant. He kept the Thunder winning. In a year when Kevin freakin' Durant joined a 73 win team, Russell Westbrook was the story of the regular season. He is so, so special to all those who live in Oklahoma and their fans. Durant leaving literally crushed the city and the fanbase. Destroyed them. Westbrook gave them a reason to hold their head-up.

The locker room is definitely not dysfuntional either. The team is, yes. But as a lockeroom they are very much together.
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No, that would be because of fracking. http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dr...o-san-francisco-and-oklahoma-city-have-common
 
el3mel said:
That's a short sight to look at it IMO. Reaching the playoff for OKC with such a roster and a coach is a miracle itself.. Doing all these numbers in such a team is a miracle. He overachieved with what is surrounding him imo. The other MVP candidates are playing in better teams than him with better teammates while he's struggling in such a team. He did his job.
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It's not a miracle. Billy Donovan is not a bad coach, I don't understand why people keep saying this. Steven Adams is talented. Victor Oladipo is not a star but he's certainly a player you can have in a winning team. Gibson can score in the post, McDermott can shoot, Kanter is a very efficient scorer and rebounder. There are no great two way players for teammates but most teams don't have that either and the results are a lot different. What great teammates does Giannis have? Look at how Chris Paul plays when Griffin is hurt and it's just a spot up shooter like Reddick and nothing else around him. Paul plays more in control, he gets his teammates involved, he plays great defense, etc.

Westbrook is truly a fantastic player but he is flawed in so many ways and he doesn't seem interested in fixing them. People make so many excuses for him and in the end we just get more and more of the same.
 
Some thoughts -

- I think Russell Westbrook is an incredible player
- Russell Westbrook shot 42.5% from the field this year
- Russell Westbrook is a career 43.3% shooter (he just completed his 9th season in the NBA)

- Allen Iverson was an incredible player
- Allen Iverson shot 42.5% for his career
- Allen Iverson never won anything in the NBA (though through sheer will power he got to an NBA final and won a game in those finals)

- Allen Iverson is a HOF.


I think when Westbrook retires...a lot of AI comparisons are going to be made.


*I realize they are different players physically - Westbrook is no lightweight and AI was shorter and weighed next to nothing soaking wet.
 
Eboue said:
It's not a miracle. Billy Donovan is not a bad coach, I don't understand why people keep saying this. Steven Adams is talented. Victor Oladipo is not a star but he's certainly a player you can have in a winning team. Gibson can score in the post, McDermott can shoot, Kanter is a very efficient scorer and rebounder. There are no great two way players for teammates but most teams don't have that either and the results are a lot different. What great teammates does Giannis have? Look at how Chris Paul plays when Griffin is hurt and it's just a spot up shooter like Reddick and nothing else around him. Paul plays more in control, he gets his teammates involved, he plays great defense, etc.

Westbrook is truly a fantastic player but he is flawed in so many ways and he doesn't seem interested in fixing them. People make so many excuses for him and in the end we just get more and more of the same.
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You're overrating the team. Only Oladipo is a nice shooter. McDermott is inconsistent and Gibson operates mostly under the rim, not a constant shooter and doesn't create the play ( I know them well since I'm a bulls fans ). The rest of the team is a joke and that's clear when Russel leaves the court. They can't even defend a lead when he's not playing.

Remove Russel from this team and tell me will they even reach the playoffs ?
 
el3mel said:
You're overrating the team. Only Oladipo is a nice shooter. McDermott is inconsistent and Gibson operates mostly under the rim, not a constant shooter and doesn't create the play ( I know them well since I'm a bulls fans ). The rest of the team is a joke and that's clear when Russel leaves the court. They can't even defend a lead when he's not playing.

Remove Russel from this team and tell me will they even reach the playoffs ?
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McDermott has shot 39% from 3 in his career. He's a Good Shooter.
 
adexkola said:
It would be the perfect team for him, as...

*segways to Spurs-Grizzlies series*

... Parker no longer is consistently good to face other elite PGs in the West in a competitive series. He (and Patty Mills) have been getting roasted by Conley, to the point that in game 5, Kawhi (a small forward) finally was placed on Conley full time to try and stem the bleeding. Also, the Spurs have regressed from the free flowing ball moving offense that won a title in 2014. They run many isos through Lamarcus or Kawhi. CP3 will improve them on both ends from the PG position if he decides to join them.

Revised prediction: Grizzlies will win game 6. The Grindhouse will be a cauldron, and our defense will be much better. Kawhi will get his regardless, but they'll just fall short.

Game 7: Up in the air, but advantage Spurs. Unless Gasol pulls his thumb out his ass and brings it on both ends of the floor. Clippers won game 7 in San Antonio 2 years ago (?) so it's possible.
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Clippers had homecourt advantage in that series. They did win game 6 in San Antonio though.
 
charlton66 said:
It was great performance in a WIN. I can't see what's so odd about celebrating that. The fact that Foxsports chose to point out that that particular achievement had only been done once before in 30 odd years was just "grist for the mill" as far as I was concerned. I used it to illustrate that he had played really well. It was his overall "Stephortless" performance that mattered to me.
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They have won more with Westbrook averaging a triple double than without him, so doesn't the same credit go for him?
 
el3mel said:
Remove Russel from this team and tell me will they even reach the playoffs ?
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TBH, that'll probably apply to around half the teams with their star player in the playoffs, including the Rockets.
 
Russ' decision making in the 4th quarter seems dodgy. I think in all the games against the Rockets, they've managed to keep the lead up until the 3rd.
 
ArseHat said:
TBH, that'll probably apply to around half the teams with their star player in the playoffs, including the Rockets.
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Rockets overall got a better team than OKC, though and that's why they defeated them easily. Sure they won't be as strong without Harden and won't compete but they'll still reach the playoffs. I don't think OKC would have even reached the playoffs without Russel this season and that's the difference.
 
MJJ said:
They have won more with Westbrook averaging a triple double than without him, so doesn't the same credit go for him?
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It does, but does the fact that he has all these triple doubles in and of itself make him the MVP? That's my only problem with all this. I think Westbrook has had a great year, but sometimes I think it has been to the detriment of his team mates. At other times he has been bloody brilliant. That's why I've gone back and forth on his candidacy.
 
charlton66 said:
It does, but does the fact that he has all these triple doubles in and of itself make him the MVP? That's my only problem with all this. I think Westbrook has had a great year, but sometimes I think it has been to the detriment of his team mates. At other times he has been bloody brilliant. That's why I've gone back and forth on his candidacy.
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Carrying a team that should be tanking to a sixth seed is deserving of mvp imo, particularly when the whole offense ran through him. His play during the play offs is another matter.
 
el3mel said:
Rockets overall got a better team than OKC, though and that's why they defeated them easily. Sure they won't be as strong without Harden and won't compete but they'll still reach the playoffs. I don't think OKC would have even reached the playoffs without Russel this season and that's the difference.
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I don't think it's a given or even all that likely a team with old Eric Gordon as it's number one scorer makes the playoffs.
 
Eboue said:
I don't think it's a given or even all that likely a team with old Eric Gordon as it's number one scorer makes the playoffs.
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They still have players who can at least hold themselves without Harden on the court till he returns, for example Lou Williams can take care of shots when Harden is rested. On the other hand take Russel from the court and it's all over for the rest of OKC players, they'll always the lead Russel made while playing.

The result of the series and both teams position in the regular season proves who's the better team overall.
 
el3mel said:
Rockets overall got a better team than OKC, though and that's why they defeated them easily. Sure they won't be as strong without Harden and won't compete but they'll still reach the playoffs. I don't think OKC would have even reached the playoffs without Russel this season and that's the difference.
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I'd have to disagree with them making the playoffs without Harden. Their whole system revolves around Harden. Who's going to facilitate that offense for a season? Patrick Beverley? Eric Gordon?

charlton66 said:
It does, but does the fact that he has all these triple doubles in and of itself make him the MVP? That's my only problem with all this. I think Westbrook has had a great year, but sometimes I think it has been to the detriment of his team mates. At other times he has been bloody brilliant. That's why I've gone back and forth on his candidacy.
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That's my biggest gripe in this debate too. Him being "Mr. Triple-Double", which is a great accomplishment, is the main argument for him being MVP. If he had averaged 32/9.7/9.4 (on better percentages) rather than 32/10.7/10.4, I'd reckon his MVP hype train wouldn't be has big as it is now. It's a moot point, though, since it is what it is and sports public today places great emphasis on stats. Don't get me wrong, I see both sides of the argument, and there probably is no wrong answer. I just have an issue if the main reason one believes a player deserves MVP is because said player achieved a certain coined term based on arbitrary numbers.
 
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ArseHat said:
I'd have to disagree with them making the playoffs without Harden. Their whole system revolves around Harden. Who's going to facilitate that offense for a season? Patrick Beverley? Eric Gordon?
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I can see them getting at least 7th or 8th without Harden, though. They won't be that high in the western rank of course.
 
el3mel said:
I can see them getting at least 7th or 8th without Harden, though. They won't be that high in the western rank of course.
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You aren't getting in the playoffs in the West if your best scorers are Eric Gordon and Lou Williams, especially if you don't have an elite defense. We'll have to agree to disagree.
 
ArseHat said:
You aren't getting in the playoffs in the West if your best scorers are Eric Gordon and Lou Williams, especially if you don't have an elite defense. We'll have to agree to disagree.
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Yes we won't be able to reach an agreement so we're talking about assumptions anyway. We won't know for sure until we remove both Harden and Russel from their teams and see.
 
charlton66 said:
If you look at Westbrook's overall performance in the playoffs where he averaged his vaunted triple double I think that answers your question. His usage rate was 46.6% which was higher than his FG% (37.3%). He shot an absolutely pitiful 25.8% from 3 point range yet was in the top 10 for 3 point attempts and his fourth quarter stats were abhorrent.

If Steven Adams had been allowed to answer that infamous question at the podium he could have easily said "We suck because once Russ is off the court we don't know what to do. We rarely practice any sets that don't go through him and for the most part we are all out of rhythm by the time we actually get to play without him. No wonder the guys can't shoot. It's worse on defense. We spend all our time boxing out so that he can get his rebounds and when he's not there it affects how we play."

If I was Russ, I wouldn't have let him speak either.

Statistics matter, when you don't know that they matter. Oscar Robertson's triple doubles were much more impressive because he didn't even know he was achieving them. They came within the flow of the game. Russ didn't just chase the numbers, he was on a galloping horse hunting them down. In the normal flow of the game triple doubles are a great indicator of performance. Westbrook's season this year was anything but normal.
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This is seriously nonsense. Obviously they suck because Norris Cole and Semaj Christon can't run PG in the playoffs against the #3 seed. They suck because the guy they built their second unit offense around (Kanter) couldn't get on the floor without being torched by Harden. They suck because guys like Abrines, Grant, McDermott, Sabonis etc are young and playing in their first playoff series. Do you honestly think Donovan would do no work on sets or plays with the second unit? I highly doubt it. If he did then that is just straight up negligent.

I genuinely think you are bitter at Russ because this season he has wrestled back the media and fan attention from your golden boy Steph.
 
ArseHat said:
TBH, that'll probably apply to around half the teams with their star player in the playoffs, including the Rockets.
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This. Rockets without Harden, Jazz without Hayward, Portland without Lillard, Clippers without Paul and even Spurs without Kawhi become just average teams without them.
 
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