They might think what they want, Curry is a good defensive player. It is just a lazy opinion made during his first few years in the league when he was a defensive liability.
NBA 2016-17
- Thread starter ArmchairCritic
- Start date
He's got almost twice as many assists as Ginobilii.
Kidd & Nash are top 3, but Bron will finish top 10.
You're right, I'm just still pissed about that
But LeBron never had that defining (Finals) performance for me until he did it with the Cavs last year, not like other greats have had at least (could be wrong but it felt that way when he won those titles with Miami). His triple double at MSG, 25 straight against the Pistons and all-round in last year's Finals are the only 'wow'-performances I can even remember from him, when people like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kobe had much more moments like that imo. I'm probably biased since I didn't like James for a very long time but that's how it feels to me at least.
It's his longevity, freak athleticism, consistency and all-around game (can do it all) which makes him special, but in terms of single games performances he doesn't come near most players in the top 10 for me.
You honestly think LeBron couldn't put up 30/31 a night?
And I'm comparing him to Magic because they were both such big athletic guys...Magic isn't exactly your typical point guard...whereas Nash and Kidd are traditional point guards...and Man Utd - get outta here.
Man Utd has a brilliant career highlights package and does a mean bounce/skip pass - but, you're in a crowd of 1 if you think Man Utd is a better passer than LeBron.
*I can't believe you're making me defend LeBron ffs
"What's my name?" Just a reminder.
http://www.sbnation.com/2017/3/30/1...-russell-westbrook-james-harden-kawhi-leonard
http://www.sbnation.com/2017/3/30/1...-russell-westbrook-james-harden-kawhi-leonard
It makes me feel dirty to be honest.
Look at the team they had the years james was there? Even without james they were going to win a bunch of games.
Also scrol back so my comments will be taken in context. Miami without James and Chicago with out Jordan. Still two good teams just probably not title winning
The point was that LeBron would have lead the league 10 times at scoring if he wanted so, which I disagree. Players like Durant and Kobe lead the league during those years and both of them are better scorers (not better players though) than LeBron, etc etc.
Ginobili is a visionary passer IMO. Don't remember any player since Kidd/Nash who made as many great passes as Ginobili. LeBron is better at assisting, similarly to how Stockton was better at it than Magic, but for making crazy ridiculous passes, Ginobili is my guy.
You're right, I'm just still pissed about that
But LeBron never had that defining (Finals) performance for me until he did it with the Cavs last year, not like other greats have had at least (could be wrong but it felt that way when he won those titles with Miami). His triple double at MSG, 25 straight against the Pistons and all-round in last year's Finals are the only 'wow'-performances I can even remember from him, when people like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kobe had much more moments like that imo. I'm probably biased since I didn't like James for a very long time but that's how it feels to me at least.
It's his longevity, freak athleticism, consistency and all-around game (can do it all) which makes him special, but in terms of single games performances he doesn't come near most players in the top 10 for me.
What about 40-18-9 against the Pacers when down 2-1? Or 45-15-5 on 73% shooting down 3-2 in Boston? Or 37-12 in game 7 against San Antonio?
Yeah sure, like I said that's only how it feels to me but I'm sure he has those performances as well. It just doesn't have the same appeal to me as 50+ in four straight games, in the middle of a 14-something game streak with 40+. 81 points, 61 in three quarters, 60 in your goodbye game, countless others. I know you think Kobe was a ballhog and sucked at the end of his career (no disputing the latter), but now Westbrook does the same and while he takes a lot of shots, the Thunder are still 31-7 when he posts a triple double and it's because of him they're a playoff team so I don't really care how much shots he takes. Maybe it's just nostalgia but I remember more 'great' performances by the greats of the past than I do from LeBron, that's all.
@RobinLFC that's because unfortunately for LeBron he makes things look effortless and we've taken him for granted for years. The man is amazing, whatever team he is on, instantly becomes a contender - how many players can you say that about?
Don't forget these Cavs before LeBron came back - what was it...4 lottery picks in a row.
I think once he retires...his career will be looked upon with even greater awe and amazement by people.
Don't forget these Cavs before LeBron came back - what was it...4 lottery picks in a row.
I think once he retires...his career will be looked upon with even greater awe and amazement by people.
To all of you using the 6 titles argument. By your logic, Bill Russell should be the unanimous GOAT. Also, Francisco Gento should be the GOAT in european football history. Just stop. Titles is an indication of a great team, not a great player. Sure, 6 rings and 6 finals MVPs is mighty impressive and should be part of the GOAT argument, but people using that as their main argument are fecking hypocrites.
LeBron is unique, and no one like him will ever play the game again. Just like Shaq. And Kareem. And Jordan.
Slight wum, and I'm sorry about that. MJ is GOAT. And probably will be for a long time. But people arguing that LeBron's not top 10, or top 20, or bloody top 50 ( ) have lost it. He'll retire as one of the all time greats, and as GOAT in many peoples eyes. Stats wise, legacy wise, accolades wise, and his overall impact on the modern game makes LeBron a lock for not only top 5, or top 3, but top 2 discussions in the future.
TLDR: MJ is GOAT. But some of you need to get a grip.
LeBron is unique, and no one like him will ever play the game again. Just like Shaq. And Kareem. And Jordan.
Slight wum, and I'm sorry about that. MJ is GOAT. And probably will be for a long time. But people arguing that LeBron's not top 10, or top 20, or bloody top 50 (
) have lost it. He'll retire as one of the all time greats, and as GOAT in many peoples eyes. Stats wise, legacy wise, accolades wise, and his overall impact on the modern game makes LeBron a lock for not only top 5, or top 3, but top 2 discussions in the future. TLDR: MJ is GOAT. But some of you need to get a grip.
My man.To all of you using the 6 titles argument. By your logic, Bill Russell should be the unanimous GOAT. Also, Francisco Gento should be the GOAT in european football history. Just stop. Titles is an indication of a great team, not a great player. Sure, 6 rings and 6 finals MVPs is mighty impressive and should be part of the GOAT argument, but people using that as their main argument are fecking hypocrites.
LeBron is unique, and no one like him will ever play the game again. Just like Shaq. And Kareem. And Jordan.
Slight wum, and I'm sorry about that. MJ is GOAT. And probably will be for a long time. But people arguing that LeBron's not top 10, or top 20, or bloody top 50 (
TLDR: MJ is GOAT. But some of you need to get a grip.
It's the argument people use to separate him from LeBron.
They also use that argument to discard any other argument. Hypocrites.
Would be nice to revisit this after the playoffs.
I doubt too many do that...because if people were JUST going by that...more people would be talking about Robert Horry being GOAT...after all, he has 7 rings
It's always tricky, I'd say impossible, to compare across eras. The game was so different back then with the inside-out approach compared to the perimeter based play of today, hand checking, lack of zone defense, more physicality, etc.
Lebron will have a tough time surpassing or even matching Jordan's "GOAT" legacy, even if he surpasses MJ in various statistical categories. And it must be noted that statistics do not paint the whole picture (just look at the Harden vs Westbrook matchup this past week, statistically Russell destroyed Harden, but if you watched, you knew Harden dictated the game). MJ was the perfect storm due to his marketability, likable personality on the surface, his drive to be the best and most importantly, being the ultimate winner. He took on the baton passed by Bird and Magic, and took the NBA to heights it had never seen before, and hasn't seen since.
Lebron, however, is arguably the most unique player to ever play the game along with Shaq imo. We've never seen a player as athletic at that size before in the league. He's been to countless number of NBA finals, leading three sets of teams to the championship round. However, that may also hurt his legacy as well, since he'll be judged against a 100% record fair or not. "The Decision" will also taint his legacy since some will say he took the easy way out although it was a miracle he took that initial Cleveland team to the finals in the first place.
MJ is my unquestionable GOAT, but if Lebron retired right now, he'd definitely be top 10, and in the conversation of top 5. If he adds a chip or two by the time he retires, he'll be top 3-5.
Lebron will have a tough time surpassing or even matching Jordan's "GOAT" legacy, even if he surpasses MJ in various statistical categories. And it must be noted that statistics do not paint the whole picture (just look at the Harden vs Westbrook matchup this past week, statistically Russell destroyed Harden, but if you watched, you knew Harden dictated the game). MJ was the perfect storm due to his marketability, likable personality on the surface, his drive to be the best and most importantly, being the ultimate winner. He took on the baton passed by Bird and Magic, and took the NBA to heights it had never seen before, and hasn't seen since.
Lebron, however, is arguably the most unique player to ever play the game along with Shaq imo. We've never seen a player as athletic at that size before in the league. He's been to countless number of NBA finals, leading three sets of teams to the championship round. However, that may also hurt his legacy as well, since he'll be judged against a 100% record fair or not. "The Decision" will also taint his legacy since some will say he took the easy way out although it was a miracle he took that initial Cleveland team to the finals in the first place.
MJ is my unquestionable GOAT, but if Lebron retired right now, he'd definitely be top 10, and in the conversation of top 5. If he adds a chip or two by the time he retires, he'll be top 3-5.
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It's not just the number of titles of course but his influence in winning them that allows them to be considered in measuring greatness.To all of you using the 6 titles argument. By your logic, Bill Russell should be the unanimous GOAT. Also, Francisco Gento should be the GOAT in european football history. Just stop. Titles is an indication of a great team, not a great player. Sure, 6 rings and 6 finals MVPs is mighty impressive and should be part of the GOAT argument, but people using that as their main argument are fecking hypocrites.
LeBron is unique, and no one like him will ever play the game again. Just like Shaq. And Kareem. And Jordan.
Slight wum, and I'm sorry about that. MJ is GOAT. And probably will be for a long time. But people arguing that LeBron's not top 10, or top 20, or bloody top 50 (
TLDR: MJ is GOAT. But some of you need to get a grip.
Been wanting to mention this since a while in this thread. Barely gets mentioned how big of an achievement it was to take that feckall team to the finals! Instead it gets added to the list of 'finals lost' by the rather predictable agenda posters.
I think rather than 6>3, it's more like MJ didn't let his team lose in the finals.
Lebron can get a pass for losing to the Spurs in '07 since his team stood no shot and the '15 finals since Kyrie and Love were injured, but he lost twice with Wade and Bosh which hurts his case. You can argue that the Spurs and Warriors were historic teams, which they were, but MJ is known for preventing some of the all-time greats from winning the championship.
I withdraw my statement about people using the "6 rings" as their sole argument. Instead I have a collection of other... arguments? I repeat, some people need to get a grip.
Eh, he didn't manage to win 2 titles playing with 2 other all stars, one of them being a top 5 player in the league. With what part of it you disagree?
Nash and Kidd are 2nd and 3rd in all time assists in NBA, averaging more than 10 assists per match. Nash in particular is recognized by many as the best team player ever, and both were extraordinary on passing, right there with Stockton and Magic. LeBron isn't in that category. Yeah, Ginobili might be an exaggeration, but I was more saying about his vision in the pitch and absolutely ridiculous assists he made, rather than him actually being the better passer (to be fair, I think it is close).
I already put him above Kobe and Bird (said, LeBron above Bird every day of the week) and would have him at 5th or 6th (on par with Magic), so no idea how my posts are mentioning in the same breath as 'he is a top 50 player' and 'he might squeeze in top 20 by the time his career ends'.
I never thought anyone could come close to Jordan, and I still think he is the best player ever, but what Lebron did in last season's finals was incredible. It's given the argument that he is the best at least a leg to stand on, which is more than could be said about Kobe or any other player since Jordan.
1. I do not disagree with the facts you are stating. I just think it's a ridiculous argument. Many other factors come into play. And i firmly believe that Jordan had a better supporting cast than LeBron for most of his finals.
2. The Ginobili part totally ruins your argument.
3. Your posts are mentioned in the same breath, as I feel they're not good arguments (the assists one could have been, but then Ginobili). Your arguments aren't @Redondo_Pirri level at all, I just disagree a lot with them. Even when you're defending the assists argument, you're saying Ginobili > LeBron might be an exaggeration. Might be.
But hey, you're a good guy and you make this discussion a lot of fun. I just don't think it's as black and white as you seemingly do. And all arguments are not good arguments.
I might be biased when it comes to Man Utd. For me, he is the most exciting passer I've seen since Magic. I played a lot of basketball in high school and always tried to pass like Man Utd (and failing).
My point was always Man Utd having a fantastic vision in the pitch and making ridiculously good passes. LeBron is more efficient with it. He has the power and size to cause havoc in the defense and so his teammates being on free positions, and he has the ability to pass well to them. However, Man Utd excites more more.
Nash and Kidd were better passers than LeBron however you look at it, no debate there IMO.
I still think Jordan is better than LeBron but, one thing to consider Jordan never faced a team in the finals as good as the Spurs and Warriors teams LeBron faced in the finals.
Utah Jazz had Stockton and Malone. Back then Stockton was considered as the second best point guard ever, and Malone as the best power forward of all time.
Yep, Duncan eventually surpassed him, but lets not forget that Duncan was past his peak when Spurs defeated Miami. Spurs' best player was a 22 years old Kawhi Leonard. Heck, even Ginobili and probably Parker were a bit past their peaks.
Lakers had also two future hall of famers (one of them a top 5 ever player), though Magic had to retire after that because of HIV. He still almost averaged a triple double on those finals with 18+ points, 12+ assists and 8+ rebounds, so was still a damn good player.
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Why does that even matter? How does that take away anything from them being an all time great team?
You don't understand those teams and the league isn't an iso match up. That was an all time great team - not an all time great collection of good players (which rarely seems to work anyway). The way their pieces fit together, how stupidly deep they were and the way they moved the ball and always managed to have some fecker open to drain a 3 ball made them great. In fact, a superstar who would've used more possessions would've made them a worse team.
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Definitely. If LeBron can topple this Warriors super team it adds a lot to his legacy.
lol at LeBron being better than Kobe, stop looking at the padded numbers. No way in hell could LeBron win the whole show in 09 and 10 with the team Kobe had. He wouldn't of even got close. Not only did Kobe win but he damn well averaged over 30 in both finals.
In fact Cleveland in both those years where they were the best team in the NBA lost 4-2 to Orlando then 4-2 to Boston lol, both teams in which Kobe demolished.
That's when LeBron goes oh shit I can't win in Cleveland no point to keep trying here (Despite having the best record two years in row), I need more help (a phrase he himselfs utters with impunity to everyone that will listen and did so again this year) so he goes to Miami to form the super-team and gets Dirk dicked in the finals 4-2, after might I add they were caught making fun of Dirk. I guess he showed them.
In 2014 part of that superteam he has to be carried off court for cramps? Are you kidding me? MJ and Kobe would have had to been amputated to let that happen ffs.
And guess what happens there, LeBron gets outplayed by a 3rd year player called Kawhi who not only destroys him on defence but gets it done on the other end and takes the finals mvp against the super team playing for a three peat? And it wasn't even close they got railroaded 4-1.
Better than Kobe, ahaha, puhhhllleeeaaasssseee. Try watching the games not the numbers.
In fact Cleveland in both those years where they were the best team in the NBA lost 4-2 to Orlando then 4-2 to Boston lol, both teams in which Kobe demolished.
That's when LeBron goes oh shit I can't win in Cleveland no point to keep trying here (Despite having the best record two years in row), I need more help (a phrase he himselfs utters with impunity to everyone that will listen and did so again this year) so he goes to Miami to form the super-team and gets Dirk dicked in the finals 4-2, after might I add they were caught making fun of Dirk. I guess he showed them.
In 2014 part of that superteam he has to be carried off court for cramps? Are you kidding me? MJ and Kobe would have had to been amputated to let that happen ffs.
And guess what happens there, LeBron gets outplayed by a 3rd year player called Kawhi who not only destroys him on defence but gets it done on the other end and takes the finals mvp against the super team playing for a three peat? And it wasn't even close they got railroaded 4-1.
Better than Kobe, ahaha, puhhhllleeeaaasssseee. Try watching the games not the numbers.
Based on what? That team had gasol Bynum and Odom. We already saw kobes teams struggle without other all star teammates, even in his prime. 34-48 in 05, 45-37 in 06, 42-40 in 07. That was the Kobe show. Mediocrity. They only became title contenders once gasol showed up
When lebron had crappy teammates he dragged Larry Hughes and a hobbled ilgauskas to the best record. When Kobe had crappy teammates he set records for usage rate and finished under .500 in the three year span where he wasn't playing next to a hall of fame big man.
Kobe missed game 3 of the 2000 NBA finals with an ankle sprain.
nba.nbcsports.com/2014/06/06/michael-jordan-left-an-nba-finals-game-due-to-cramps-too/
Neither are exactly amputations. It sucks when the facts don't match your narrative eh? Anyone who has ever cramped up playing basketball knows it can be serious. Trying to play some macho "lebron is a pussy" card makes you look like a fan boy.
So Jordan and his teammates were pretty much drugged causing them to suffer debilitating effects. Those weak bastards!
Followed that performance up with the Flu game.
NOTE: I am not one giving Lebron a hard time about cramping up.
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It should be noted that MJ played 42 minutes that game and scored 12 points in the 4th quarter (although he missed the crucial game-tying three). Plus, we all know what he did a couple days later.
Jalen pretty much admitted he injured Kobe on purpose in game 2 (the same way Dahntay Jones precipitated the end of Kobe's career). Kobe came back in game 4 with a bum ankle and carried the Lakers in OT without Shaq (playing 47 min) in one of his defining performances.
I'm not going to say that Lebron isn't tough, he's a tank and he's rarely, if ever, been out for an extended period of time. Plus playing with cramps can be very debilitating. However it's very unfortunate for him that it happened on the biggest stage, and it taints his image. It will be one of the sticks to beat him with when scrutinizing his performances, especially when his intangibles, "toughness" in this case, are being compared to the likes of MJ and Kobe who both have reputations of being two of the toughest players ever (both physically (pain threshold) and mentally). I'd say MJ had the greatest mental strength, and Kobe had the highest pain tolerance in the league. Not the be all and end all when judging players, but it will factor into one's body of work.
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@Sarni damn you guys are hot right now. Can you carry this into the playoffs and do us the favour of removing the Golden State filth?
Yay, great win over Houston!@Sarni damn you guys are hot right now. Can you carry this into the playoffs and do us the favour of removing the Golden State filth?
Over 7 games series we do not have a chance against Warriors but we will scare them in 2 or 3 games like we did last season (despite 4-1 it was a very tight series). We gain a lot by having Nurkic out there but they now have Durant.
Cleveland lose again, this is becoming ridiculous. Not that I mind, they are already below Warriors, Spurs and Rockets and now find themselves below Celtics too. Time for Thunder, Jazz and Clippers to overtake them and that first round pick could be much better than we ever anticipated.
Ok but I'm not calling Jordan or Bryant soft, or implying it as Redondo did.