I'm on my phone and recalling from memory - but the point remains that without Bron, the teams he's been a part of wouldn't achieve what Chicago did without Jordan. He had better teams than Bron ever has had.
NBA 2016-17
- Thread starter ArmchairCritic
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I'm on my phone and recalling from memory - but the point remains that without Bron, the teams he's been a part of wouldn't achieve what Chicago did without Jordan. He had better teams than Bron ever has had.
I'm not belittling Jordan's accomplishments, and I don't think he'll be surpassed in my lifetime.
But why does everyone ignore what happened prior to his first final?
Jordan is GOAT. LeBron is currently 5th best in history and is on course to retire as 2nd. This is my take on the matter, for what it's worth.
Edit: I like LeBron a lot and would love for him to have unprecedented success in the next few years and surpass Jordan but I think it's very unlikely.
Edit: I like LeBron a lot and would love for him to have unprecedented success in the next few years and surpass Jordan but I think it's very unlikely.
Pretty much this.
No one is ignoring it - he lost a lot...he lost to the celtics...he lost to the bad boys. But, people remember how he lost. His teams were clear underdogs against those teams - the upstarts trying to take it to the big boys and they beat him down.
No denying it - but, once he climbed that mountain, he was untouchable.
Those 2 years away - man what could have been
Joined an awful team, took a bit to build it into a winner. Same as James at Cleveland, in fact he had to leave Cleveland to join a more talented team in order to win his first title.
Rookie season Bulls were still awful. Broke his foot his second season and missed 64 games. Played great in playoffs vs. an outstanding Celtic team (Bird, McHale, Parish, Johnson, Ainge), including a still playoff record 63 points in game 2. Third season, he joined Wilt Chamberlain as at the time one of only two players to score 3000 points in a season, made the playoffs, lost to the Celtics again. Spent the next three seasons running into a roadblock called the Detroit Pistons (one of the great teams in NBA history). Then broke through and dominated. So yeah it took him a few seasons to get past a couple of dynasties before being part of one himself.
No one is ignoring it - he lost a lot...he lost to the celtics...he lost to the bad boys. But, people remember how he lost. His teams were clear underdogs against those teams - the upstarts trying to take it to the big boys and they beat him down.
No denying it - but, once he climbed that mountain, he was untouchable.
Those 2 years away - man what could have been
Of course the one thing the Pistons did to Jordan at that time was to double and triple team him every time he touched the ball, with a still weak supporting cast around Jordan it was a great game plan.
Get a room you two.
The Bulls teams that Jordan was on would have won ZERO titles without him and most likely not made any finals. They made none the years he was off playing baseball, they made none after he left.
The Miami Heat would still have been a great team without James, maybe not title winning but still would have won a bunch of games and made the playoffs. Go look at the players that were around him. It is nonsense to suggest they were weak except for James.
I know you think those looking at Jordan are doing so with nostalgia, but you might also be looking at James with some blinders towards other eras also.
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Yep. Jazz would have taken a few of them.
yup, Good old Chuck Daly...and also I cringe to think what those Pistons would have done to Steph Curry - he would have been snapped in two by Laimbeer
yup, Good old Chuck Daly...and also I cringe to think what those Pistons would have done to Steph Curry - he would have been snapped in two by Laimbeer
Any excuse to post this video
I wonder how the Pippen led team would have done if it hadn't gotten screwed in the Garden.
That foul gets called all the time now..but back then, in the playoffs - and in the final seconds? They win that...I think they would have won the series.
Mind you...Hakeem was out of this world at that point.
I think he would have only done it once. Laimbeer was a thug, however, I would hate to see what David West would do to him if he laid a hand on Steph. That guy looks like he could chew bricks for breakfast and Matt Barnes wouldn't be far behind.yup, Good old Chuck Daly...and also I cringe to think what those Pistons would have done to Steph Curry - he would have been snapped in two by Laimbeer
Last of a dying breed.
Matt Barnes and the Derek Fisher subplot 
Yeah and he wouldn't have won the first one as well in 2013.
That's just idiotic. Jordan never failed to win when he had an another all star player with him. LeBron has repeatedly done so playing with two other all star players.
He won three titles without Rodman. Wade was a fantastic player, nothing outrageous to make comparison between him and Pippen. Heck, Wade won a title without LeBron, leading his team in scoring in all 6 matches in final, and averaging 34.6 points in the finals. LeBron winning just 2 rings while playing with Wade and Bosh should be hold against him. Losing from the worst champions in the last 20 years or more should be hold against him too.
We cannot know that for sure, but Jordan with Miami would have won the title every year. That team had a better supporting crew than Chicago had for the first three titles.
When you suggested that LeBron is a better defensive player, or better overall. He isn't. Jordan won best defensive player of the year and holds the record for number of times he was in all NBA best defensive team.
Why? That was an all time great Spurs team who shot the lights out like nobody has ever done, and Jordan got wooped by the Pistons when he had Pippen in 1990.
What did I start.
Because he had Wade and Bosh on his team. You can't both be the GOAT and lose when you have those 2 players in your team.
An historic team? With their leader past it, and finishing below Thunders in their conference? Yeah, sure.
You're right about 1990. That was the only time it happened, and also it was the first time Pippen was an all-star, so likely not yet at his peak. After that season though, Jordan always win. James had lost too many times playing with great players. That didn't happen to Jordan.
In order for LeBron to pass Jordan, he need to do what he did last year another 2-3 times. His performances on finals were out of this world and on my eyes (and many others) elevated him above Kobe and Bird, but he's still nowhere Jordan.
6 finals, 6 rings, 6 MVP finals. At least in three of those years he had a worse supporting crew than LeBron when he won any of his three rings.
...
Then is of course the difference on how they won. Jordan didn't leave Chicago to join Pistons in order to win titles. He won titles on his team. A team that were nothing before he joined them, and became nothing when he left them (4 times in a row finished bottom in their conference). Come on man, you might love LeBron, but it isn't even close. It is like putting Cristiano above Pele.
Nah...it's fun doing this.What did I start.
Miami won 15, 43 and 47 games in the three years before Lebron. They didn't make it out of the first round in any of those years.
That just ignores the entire context of it. Wade was broken by the second set of finals against the spurs. LeBron had a great finals but hardly anyone was beating the spurs then, even if Wade and Bosh were at their peak.
They shot 47% from 3 as a team for the entire series. Do you understand how completely and utterly insane that is? I watched that series and nobody was going to do much against them.
I feel like my comment triggered a few people - like I said I don't want to admit it, as a Kobe fan I've held the view that Jordan is untouchable and everyone after him is up for debate, including Kobe (I don't think that anymore btw, sadly)
All I was really trying to say is that the divide between Jordan and Bron isn't as wide as some may think, and it isn't inconceivable that Bron will ever be regarded as the GOAT.
I do think Championships, and the overall impact he had on the game mean that Jordan will forever be seen as the greatest ever, I don't think Bron will win more 3 more titles, let alone 4 and overtake MJ.
But when put in context, when all is said and done those two will be 1 & 2, and there'll be a gap between everyone else to find for the remaining top 5/ top 10 spots.
LeBron was a Ray Allen desperation shot away from losing the Finals against the Spurs as well when he won one with Miami. You can debate whether he's top 5 or top 10 (definitely top 10 imo, perhaps top 5) but he's not the GOAT and also won't be when he retires.
By the end of this season, LeBron would have played more games than Jordan in NBA. So yep, he played longer and didn't like baseball.
On average (season): points (Jordan +3), rebounds (LeBron +1), assists (LeBron + 1.7), steals (Jordan +0.6), blocks (tie)
On average (playoff): points (Jordan +5.4), rebounds (LeBron +2.4), assists (LeBron +1.1), steals (Jordan +0.4), blocks (tie)
best season: points (Jordan +5.7), rebounds (LeBron +0.4), assists (LeBron +0.8), steals (Jordan +1), blocks (Jordan +0.5)
best playoff: points (Jordan +8.4), rebounds (LeBron +3.4), assists (tie), steals (Jordan +0.5), blocks (Jordan +0.5)
Average number of points is higher now than in nineties so more easier to score now, and still Jordan owns LeBron. I also think that LeBron has a bit easier to assist considering that he plays with better shooters than Jordan, but I would say that he is a slightly better assister. LeBron is easily a better rebounder, but Jordan is better at steals and probably better at blocks. Also don't forget that LeBron numbers will likely go down as he ages.
Then of course, some other things to consider:
Jordan lead the league in scoring 10 times, LeBron did it only once.
Jordan was a season best defensive player in the league, LeBron wasn't.
9 times all-NBA defensive first team vs 6, in favor of Jordan.
6 vs 3 in rings and playoff MVP in favor of Jordan.
5 vs 4 in season MVP in favor of Jordan (it could be argued that both should have won more).
3 times leader in steals vs 0 for Jordan.
It would be if I hadn't read these exact same repetitive arguments on facebook photo comments on pages like ClutchPoints...
Feels like I've seen Revan's before..
That's reductive. You can do that for almost any championship winner. Derek Fisher's shot with 0.2 seconds left enabled Shaq and Kobe to win. Rasheed not guarding Robert Horry enabled Tim Duncan to win. The Phantom Foul enabled Kareem and Magic to win. NBA officials allowed the Lakers to beat the Kings. And so on.
Or gambling.
As you know I'm one of the leading Jordan is miles ahead of LeBron argument proponents on this forum...but,
I have an issue with the two bits in bold.
LeBron is not just a slightly better passer than Jordan, but a markedly better passer. LeBron's court vision rivals Magic's...not to mention, he is also a much more willing and natural passer.
Second bold bit - if LeBron wanted to...he could easily have led the league in scoring the last 10 years - just like if he wanted to...he could get a triple double every night.
LeBron just isn't that guy...but, that's also one of the things that make him unique.
Agree.
Nope, Jordan played the majority of his career well over 100 points per game.
You're right.
Nope, Jordan played the majority of his career well over 100 points per game.
Was the drop in 1999 because of the introduction of zone defense?
Disagree that he is on Magic's level. Not even near. Not even Nash or Kidd level, not even in Ginobili level. A better passer than Jordan, yes, but lets stop there.
And Eden Hazard would have scored as much as Messi and Ronaldo if he wanted so.
Agree about triple doubles though.
This is a weird thing to crow about. Curry has led the league in steals for the past two years and people think he is a defensive liability.
Jordan retired.
But that isn't true - the defensive liability part not the steals part.
No the rule changed in 2001. It was due to the lockout shortened season and was very low paced and also inefficient.