Moyes Was Sacked One Year Ago

[Massive Spanner]

You know I was joking right?

 

[Sir A1ex]

Just because this happened doesn't mean it was inevitable. Lots of clubs have maintained success with different managers. Look at Bayern.

I find it hard to think of any clubs who have had one manager, for so long, and so entirely responsible for our success. Got any examples?

Even looking further back - in the last 100 years, all 18 titles we've won have been shared between two managers, who between them were in charge for about 50 of those 100 years.
Hopefully, if LVG can get us back on track we can become like a "normal" club that can achieve success without reliance on one specific manager, but we never have been in the past.

The problem with David Moyes is that he wasn't good enough. It's that simple.

Wouldn't argue with that. As I say, he was a night-watchman.

 

[glazed]

I find it hard to think of any clubs who have had one manager, for so long, and so entirely responsible for our success. Got any examples?

Not really, apart from Busby, but it's pretty clear that he stuck his oar in all day long after he retired, and picked a poor replacement. I suppose on that basis you could argue that it was inevitable that they would always pick a poor replacement, human nature being what it is.

I suppose the nearest other equivalent is Dalglish coming after Shankley/Paisley/Fagan, who I always thought of as the same person (Shagley?) He did alright at first.

 

[Ekeke]

He'd have done better with LVG's budget but I think the job was a stage too far for him at that time and we were right to let him go. He has a decent side at Sociedad and I think he'll get another go at a big club somewhere down the line.

 

[sunama]

The Moyes era was so unbearable that Vidic signed a deal with Inter before the season ended(which is a terrible thing to do for a club captain to do).

That does sound bad.
Clearly Vidic had no trust in Moyes and where he was taking the club and thought it best to leave the sinking ship, asap.

It did amaze me that when Moyes was getting bad results, our fans gave him a standing ovation - that was perplexing.
And as for the "Chosen One" banner - that was so cringe worthy. If we were hiring Mourinho, it would make some sense (ie. in reference to "Special One"), but for any other manager (especially one who was doomed to failure) it was not a good idea.

 

[humdinger]

Moyes' tenure was an absolute disaster. I was rooting for him to turn it around and kept thinking to myself he would as I couldn't bring myself to believe the team could possibly finish as low as 7th but ultimately he was a very bad fit for this football club. He wasn't a good enough tactician to out-think other managers and he didn't get the best out of the players and the confidence and bullishness slowly ebbed away from the club under his watch.

I was incredibly relieved when it was announced he had been sacked as I genuinely feared the club would stick by him for longer. Thankfully they realised it was a mistake to appoint him in the first place and weren't too stubborn to back down.

 

[Roman Bellic]

That does sound bad.
Clearly Vidic had no trust in Moyes and where he was taking the club and thought it best to leave the sinking ship, asap.

It did amaze me that when Moyes was getting bad results, our fans gave him a standing ovation - that was perplexing.
And as for the "Chosen One" banner - that was so cringe worthy. If we were hiring Mourinho, it would make some sense (ie. in reference to "Special One"), but for any other manager (especially one who was doomed to failure) it was not a good idea.

So it's alright for our captain to leave the sinking ship first?

Moyes was the chosen one, he was hand picked by SAF, which is probably the greatest reference anyone can have on his/her resume.

 

[Dion]

He'd have done better with LVG's budget

He wouldn't have fecking spent it. Or he'd have spunked it on Coleman and Tim Howard.

 

[JPRouve]

So it's alright for our captain to leave the sinking ship first?

Moyes was the chosen one, he was hand picked by SAF, which is probably the greatest reference anyone can have on his/her resume.

When you see the actual captain of the ship, drilling holes in the hull(?) of the ship, you leave the damn ship.

 

[Mali_Zeus]

He'd have done better with LVG's budget

Nah, he wouldnt.

 

[crossy1686]

Nah, he wouldnt.

I second this.

Mainly because he'd have waited until the final day and signed Baines.

 

[Roman Bellic]

When you see the actual captain of the ship, drilling holes in the hull(?) of the ship, you leave the damn ship.

So LVG finishes 7th next season, you'd be fine with Rooney signing a contract with Juventus in January ? Interesting.

 

[Shark]

Nah, he wouldnt.

I think it's fair to say he would have done a bit better if he managed to bring in players such as Herrera, Di Maria and Blind. Then again, he completely failed to get the best out of a player he'd been managing for years and didn't have a clue how to use Mata, so it's really difficult to know for sure. I'm not sure if I even care at this stage.

 

[The Azzurri]

I remember it got so bad, i gotten myself actually supporting the opposition so that in the hope of him getting the boot.

 

[Theonas]

I agree every situation is unique. I'm merely saying that Bayern had a very good established manager and switched him for another really good one and there wasn't a huge problem. Yes, coming after SAF made things much much harder, but failure was not inevitable. Making a hash of the summer transfers was not inevitable. Having no tactical nous was not inevitable. Losing the players' respect was not inevitable. Failing to qualify for Europe was not inevitable. Looking like a frightened gollum in every interview was not inevitable. A better manager could have made it through the first year.

But the point is that Bayern's situation is not comparable. First of all they never even had a manager, they had a coach, they switched a successful coach with another. We can't call them managers when what they did is different from what Fergie did. Barcelona switched Pep for Tito and did not suffer also and Tito was far from an established name. At those clubs, the coach is just another cog in the machine.

The transfers fiasco was avoidable I agree and was a sign of uncertainty either from Woodward or Moyes and we will really never know who. The tactical point of view is exaggerated, I don't buy for a second that Moyes was a tactical dinosaur. It is a lazy generalization whenever things go wrong. I think his problem was more to do with communication and leadership in the sense that he simply was not authoritative or commanding enough to make the players and board listen to him. Losing the players respect is as I just said his fault and his entirely. A more charismatic man wouldn't have lost the players and I feel that this was his main issue and the reason there was no other way but to sack him. The frightened gollum remark in the sense is very appropriate but it relates to personality shortcomings as well just like the losing players aspect.

All in all, I think there is a general tendency to discredit everything about a manager whenever he fails and praise everything about him when he succeeds when in reality, a manager cannot really be that bad or that good about everything. In the case of Moyes, his shortcomings happened to be in maybe the most important area at that time which is personality and charisma. We could have gotten away with a manager that has a basic tactical approach or a bad transfer window but we were never getting away with one who doesn't inspire trust with a group of players who were ever used to one man. The board and Sir Alex wrongly felt that Moyes could inspire those qualities but he simply didn't. Like you say, he looked frightened, lost the players and generally like a fish out of water. So of course this was avoidable in a sense, but I can also see the reason the club would take such a risk. I did not really change my mind since the appointment that it was a very high risk appointment but I could see its merits just as I could see its potential drawbacks. Having said all of that, every top club in Europe went into a nightmarish phase like this, one season out of Europe is nothing in the big scheme of things and most of these bad phases are the result of a high risk, high potential rewards decision somewhere along the way. We made a few of these along the years, we got away with some and we didn't in others. In Moyes's case we actually paid a high price for it but that shouldn't stop us from making risky decisions ever.

 

[Roman Bellic]

He'd have done better with LVG's budget but I think the job was a stage too far for him at that time and we were right to let him go. He has a decent side at Sociedad and I think he'll get another go at a big club somewhere down the line.

Moyes would have done better with £150m ? Interesting.

 

[gerdm07]

I think deep down he knew the team he inherited was not that good and not likely to repeat as champions. However, he did not have the balls to make bold steps and reshape the team in his mold. Great leaders know instinctively when boldness is required and are willing to take the heat for the greater good.

 

[Adebesi]

Its silly people use the whole "LVG spent £150m" thing to suggest he had an unfair advantage over Moyes.

There is every indication Moyes had the money to spent if he had wanted to. But he dithered.

I do think he suffered by Gill leaving when he did and having to deal with a new CEO learning the ropes at the same time he was. That was unfortunate. Gill wouldve been able to hold his hand a bit more and maybe that summer wouldnt have been such a disaster.

But still, if Moyes had been more assertive he couldve cleared out some of the fringe players and brought in new players. If it was a simple case of spend £150m and win CL football he should have done that, maybe he would still be in his job.

 

[Sarni]

He'd have done better with LVG's budget but I think the job was a stage too far for him at that time and we were right to let him go. He has a decent side at Sociedad and I think he'll get another go at a big club somewhere down the line.

Better than van Gaal or better than he did in his first season? He might have done better than his first season, I don't think he'd do anywhere near as we have done this season though - particularly in the big games in which we have excelled over the last couple of months. Don't forget that he was allowed to spend money, Mata and Fellaini were both very expensive signings (Mata was our record transfer at the time) and his downfall was not managing to get the best out of players already present at the club. His solution to that was getting rid of them and replacing them with better players, as he's said numerous times in interviews where he claimed he didn't have a team good enough to do better than he did.

He won't be at a big club again. Can you honestly see the likes of Barcelona, Bayern or Juventus ever contemplating appointing him? They never had before he came to United, not even Spurs would have given him a shot, it's much less likely now.

 

[Roman Bellic]

Moyes spent 60+m on Fellaini and Mata alone, would have probably signed Distin,Baines and Chris Baird for 100m.

It's not like he didn't have the £150m budget LVG had, he just couldn't land Cesc,Thiago or any big time player not in Mata's situation.

 

[Sarni]

Its silly people use the whole "LVG spent £150m" thing to suggest he had an unfair advantage over Moyes.

There is every indication Moyes had the money to spent if he had wanted to. But he dithered.

I do think he suffered by Gill leaving when he did and having to deal with a new CEO learning the ropes at the same time he was. That was unfortunate. Gill wouldve been able to hold his hand a bit more and maybe that summer wouldnt have been such a disaster.

But still, if Moyes had been more assertive he couldve cleared out some of the fringe players and brought in new players. If it was a simple case of spend £150m and win CL football he should have done that, maybe he would still be in his job.

He could have bought Herrera last season but waited until the final minute because he believed he could get Fabregas. In the end it was too late to bring Herrera so we were left with a signing that didn't necessarily fit into our team at the time (Fellaini), moreover it was the played he had managed for the past 4 years and he still failed to get the best out of him or find a suitable position on the pitch while new manager has made him one of our biggest strengths.

£60m out of that money went on Di Maria who's barely contriuted during our best spell this season, £30m spent on Herrera could have easily been spent the year before if Moyes had been more decisive, £30m Shaw has been injured most of the time and £15m Blind wasn't really your marquee signings, ditto £15m Rojo. We haven't improved mainly because of new signings, we have improved because of better mentality, preparation and tactics.

 

[stevoc]

So it's alright for our captain to leave the sinking ship first?

Moyes was the chosen one, he was hand picked by SAF, which is probably the greatest reference anyone can have on his/her resume.

For all we know he had already planned to leave last year, regardless of how good or bad Moyes did in his first year.

His contract was up it was his right to move where he wanted, Moyes wasn't falling over himself trying to convince him to stay either by the looks of it.

 

[JPRouve]

So LVG finishes 7th next season, you'd be fine with Rooney signing a contract with Juventus in January ? Interesting.

I can understand, I didn't appreciated but I understand.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Moyes would have been starting from a worse position than Van Gaal though as he had already lost the dressing room at that stage. If he had stayed he would have had to get rid of even more players than LVG did, I think. Which in turn would mean an even more disjointed start to this season, which would have piled even more pressure on Moyes. I can't how he could have rescued things from the low point he reached. His credibility as United manager had been shot to pieces.

Aye, that's true – of course. But this was a hypothetical game to begin with. If there was any chance in hell of Moyes getting a second season, he couldn't have lost the dressing room – at least not completely.

 

[Roman Bellic]

He could have bought Herrera last season but waited until the final minute because he believed he could get Fabregas. In the end it was too late to bring Herrera so we were left with a signing that didn't necessarily fit into our team at the time (Fellaini), moreover it was the played he had managed for the past 4 years and he still failed to get the best out of him or find a suitable position on the pitch while new manager has made him one of our biggest strengths.

£60m out of that money went on Di Maria who's barely contriuted during our best spell this season, £30m spent on Herrera could have easily been spent the year before if Moyes had been more decisive, £30m Shaw has been injured most of the time and £15m Blind wasn't really your marquee signings, ditto £15m Rojo. We haven't improved mainly because of new signings, we have improved because of better mentality, preparation and tactics.

You make good points, looking at the squad last year, I'd say that mentality,preparation and tactics were the 3 most important factors the team lacked last season, we had a better defence and attack last year.

 

[Ekeke]

Better than van Gaal or better than he did in his first season? He might have done better than his first season, I don't think he'd do anywhere near as we have done this season though - particularly in the big games in which we have excelled over the last couple of months. Don't forget that he was allowed to spend money, Mata and Fellaini were both very expensive signings (Mata was our record transfer at the time) and his downfall was not managing to get the best out of players already present at the club. His solution to that was getting rid of them and replacing them with better players, as he's said numerous times in interviews where he claimed he didn't have a team good enough to do better than he did.

He won't be at a big club again. Can you honestly see the likes of Barcelona, Bayern or Juventus ever contemplating appointing him? They never had before he came to United, not even Spurs would have given him a shot, it's much less likely now.

Better than he did. LVG has reaped the rewards of Fellaini and Mata settling at the club for full and half seasons, LVG's own big signing Di Maria is still trying to settle. But if you sign a whole bunch of other players as well, you're more likely to have found a couple that add to the team. Thats whats happened this season with some signings doing well like Blind and Ander, while others arent so much.

And I mean a big job in England, not quite as big as United.

 

[#07]

He could have bought Herrera last season but waited until the final minute because he believed he could get Fabregas. In the end it was too late to bring Herrera so we were left with a signing that didn't necessarily fit into our team at the time (Fellaini), moreover it was the played he had managed for the past 4 years and he still failed to get the best out of him or find a suitable position on the pitch while new manager has made him one of our biggest strengths.

£60m out of that money went on Di Maria who's barely contriuted during our best spell this season, £30m spent on Herrera could have easily been spent the year before if Moyes had been more decisive, £30m Shaw has been injured most of the time and £15m Blind wasn't really your marquee signings, ditto £15m Rojo. We haven't improved mainly because of new signings, we have improved because of better mentality, preparation and tactics.

This.

It makes me laugh when people say Moyes should be credited for most of our signings. Sir Alex was clear in his BT interview that he scouted Herrera from the Bilbao Europa league games onwards. When Moyes arrived all he had to do was agree to pay the fee for Ander, he refused.

He may have brought Fellaini with him from Everton but he didn't seem to have a clue of how to use him. How do you manage a player for years and then have no clue how to use him? He played him in defensive midfield. WTF?! Then there was Mata who he seemed to want to turn into David Beckham, get to the byline and cross.

I don't feel sorry for Moyes, I don't feel much of anything for Moyes: he's a millionaire living in sunny Spain, he's living it large. I just find it bizarre when people come along with statements like Moyes would've done better with X or we owe Y player to Moyes. Even if Moyes had this squad he'd be mismanaging it so terribly Brenton would be looking godlike by comparison.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I like the way you begin your post with that, then go on to make an argument based on no evidence whatsoever.

Evidence? It's a hypothetical scenario. I can't provide you with you evidence that X would have come to pass if Moyes against all odds had not been sacked.

The assertion in question was not based on nothing – it was based on the premise that Moyes is actually a pretty good manager. And there's plenty of evidence to back that up. In this absurdly hypothetical scenario we're talking about, Moyes wasn't tasked with winning the league and leading us into a new golden era – the original question was whether he would've managed to finish in the top four or not.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

He'd have done better with LVG's budget

He would have spent less at least, mainly because no one would have wanted to sign for us.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

It's pure speculation when the only facts we have point to the opposite.

It's speculation, of course. But the question was whether it was based on nothing – or not. Facts? Moyes only managed one top four finish with Everton – but he worked on a shoestring budget compared to the wealth of United.

First season fiasco? Mitigating circumstances all over the place. What does it – actually – take to finish in the top four per now, as of 2015? Look at the contenders and tell me that Moyes, had he been able to strengthen as he pleased (well, within reason), with an uninterrupted, full summer + pre-season to work over, would've had no chance to build a side capable of a top four finish.

The latter was the question – not whether Moyes would've been able to build a dynasty at Old Trafford.

 

[Adebesi]

He could have bought Herrera last season but waited until the final minute because he believed he could get Fabregas. In the end it was too late to bring Herrera so we were left with a signing that didn't necessarily fit into our team at the time (Fellaini), moreover it was the played he had managed for the past 4 years and he still failed to get the best out of him or find a suitable position on the pitch while new manager has made him one of our biggest strengths.

£60m out of that money went on Di Maria who's barely contriuted during our best spell this season, £30m spent on Herrera could have easily been spent the year before if Moyes had been more decisive, £30m Shaw has been injured most of the time and £15m Blind wasn't really your marquee signings, ditto £15m Rojo. We haven't improved mainly because of new signings, we have improved because of better mentality, preparation and tactics.

The thing about the transfer business that isnt captured by what youre saying there (which I agree with BTW) is the perception of control it would have given him. That's important for the players we got rid of as much as for the ones we brought in. Basically, and its a hard thing to quantify, but to some extent Moyes may have had a better grip of the dressing room if he had moved a few people on and brought a few people in who owed their allegiance to him directly. I think this is something Van Gaal benefited from. Obviously he would command more respect anyway simply because of what he has achieved in the game. But by being decisive and shipping so many players out he reminded players who stayed they were only there because he allowed them to be there. I think that's an important psychological factor. I said earlier I dont think the players consciously downed tools and refused to play for him, but they were altogether too comfortable and a sense of entitlement crept in.

Its all a long winded way of saying sometimes when you do business in the transfer market you get a benefit from that over and above the services of the players coming in. You get a morale boost from the freshness of the squad and reinvigoration of competition for places.

 

[Adebesi]

Look at the contenders and tell me that Moyes, had he been able to strengthen as he pleased (well, within reason), with an uninterrupted, full summer + pre-season to work over, would've had no chance to build a side capable of a top four finish.

I cant.

I know you werent actually talking to me. But just for the record, I cant, anyway.

Not that I am convinced he would have. But Im not convinced he wouldnt either.

What I will say is it wasnt worth the risk. Football being what it is now, he had his chance, he didnt seize it, he had to go. Im happy for him that the experience didnt destroy him. He can rebuild his career in Spain and it looks like he's doing that so everyone is happy. But Manchester United couldnt wait around to see if he could grow into the role, regardless of whether there was a 10% or 50% or 80% chance that would have happened.

 

[crossy1686]

Moyes would have done better with £150m ? Interesting.

Moyes shopping list:

Baines - £20 million
Barkely - £40 million
Coleman - £25 million
Ings - £20 million
Cleverly - new contract

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I cant.

I know you werent actually talking to me. But just for the record, I cant, anyway.

Not that I am convinced he would have. But Im not convinced he wouldnt either.

What I will say is it wasnt worth the risk. Football being what it is now, he had his chance, he didnt seize it, he had to go. Im happy for him that the experience didnt destroy him. He can rebuild his career in Spain and it looks like he's doing that so everyone is happy. But Manchester United couldnt wait around to see if he could grow into the role, regardless of whether there was a 10% or 50% or 80% chance that would have happened.

Absolutely - yes. He did have his chance – and he fecked up, mitigating circumstances or not. Football at this level is brutal, no place for dithering, timidness or whathaveya. I have no issues with Moyes getting the boot as such – and I've maintained that stance ever since the news broke.

For me it's a matter of principle, however, to keep pointing out that taking over for Fergie was a bloody difficult task – and that Moyes isn't half as stupid or incompetent as some people think.

 

[Jayvin]

Happy Moyes Is Sacked Day? What the hell..

Cringeworthy thread title, and the constant need to berate and ridicule the man on here is just sad. He didn't do well and was let go, get over it. I wish him all the best at Sociedad and in the future.

 

[ravelston]

You make good points, looking at the squad last year, I'd say that mentality,preparation and tactics were the 3 most important factors the team lacked last season, we had a better defence and attack last year.

That's pretty questionable. Smalling, Jones (or Rojo) and Shaw (or Blind) are a big step up from the Ferdinand, Vidic and Evra of last year. Attack is harder to judge - the main difference is the absence of Welbeck and I don't see how he would have improved us this year. I suppose having him and Chicharito in the wings as back up might have been helpful but I'm not sure either of them would have fit in to the system LvG has installed.

 

[crossy1686]

Happy Moyes Is Sacked Day? What the hell..

Cringeworthy thread title, and the constant need to berate and ridicule the man on here is just sad. He didn't do well and was let go, get over it. I wish him all the best at Sociedad and in the future.

It's more a celebration of the occasion than it is a ridicule of the man. I think we were all relieved when he was relieved of his duties.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Happy Moyes Is Sacked Day? What the hell..

Cringeworthy thread title, and the constant need to berate and ridicule the man on here is just sad. He didn't do well and was let go, get over it. I wish him all the best at Sociedad and in the future.

Is there a constant need?! I mean, this is a full year later - so a retrospect was always going to happen... it's not like this thread appears every day is it?!

Besides, a year ago today was a great day... and I for one like to remember great days by celebrating them.

 

[Roman Bellic]

That's pretty questionable. Smalling, Jones (or Rojo) and Shaw (or Blind) are a big step up from the Ferdinand, Vidic and Evra of last year. Attack is harder to judge - the main difference is the absence of Welbeck and I don't see how he would have improved us this year. I suppose having him and Chicharito in the wings as back up might have been helpful butI'm not sure either of them would have fit in to the system LvG has installed.

Like i said, Mentality,Tactics and Preparation were the 3 factors the team lacked last season,a defence that consists of Smalling,Jones(Rojo) and Shaw(Blind) is not bad, i just think having Rio,Vidic and Evra with Smalling and Jones with the right mentality and tactics would be better than what we have now.

The attack is a no brainer for me - Chicharito's positioning skills are superb he would thrive in this current setup, Welbeck loves to act like a midfielder, he is the perfect servant to a striker.

 

[JPRouve]

Absolutely - yes. He did have his chance – and he fecked up, mitigating circumstances or not. Football at this level is brutal, no place for dithering, timidness or whathaveya. I have no issues with Moyes getting the boot as such – and I've maintained that stance ever since the news broke.

For me it's a matter of principle, however, to keep pointing out that taking over for Fergie was a bloody difficult task – and that Moyes isn't half as stupid or incompetent as some people think.

Moyes isn't incompetent but he wasn't good enough, he wasn't special too, Moyes is a good coach like a hundred of other good coaches, he is on top of that category but he is nowhere near the category above.
Managing United is a complicated task for anyone, Van gaal included, the task was only impossible for Moyes because he was out of his depth in every possible way.