Moyes To Succeed Ferguson Anyone?

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Sparky_Hughes said:
For a start I cannt see United condoning and excusing a manager for BITING someone......for making potentially libelous statements about another club ( The whole reading situation )

The man is a collosal cnut and I will be gutted if he is anywhere near our managers job.
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What about if a United manager 'accidentally' kicked a boot at a player's head or claimed a referee was on the other team's side because he was angry about a defeat? Would he be castigated by United or would it be ignored by the club if he was successfu?
 
Theon said:
It was a ridiculously good deal, has little relevance to what I'm saying though. It was a great side with an entire new front 4, so the comparisons with Mancini aren't fair.
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The comparisons with fecking Moyes are though.

Anyone saying the difference between Moyes and Mourinho is marginal is batshit crazy.

One has done it all, everywhere. One has done next to feck all anywhere.
 
The Neviller said:
The comparisons with fecking Moyes are though.

Anyone saying the difference between Moyes and Mourinho is marginal is batshit crazy.

One has done it all, everywhere. One has done next to feck all anywhere.
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Well Fiskey was making the wider point about Mourinho's achievements, and in response to that people were comparing his Inter spell with that of Mancini's when in reality Mourinho's side was much better so it isn't a fair comparison. I mean Mancini did really well to initially win them the league, Mourinho just carried that domestic trend on. The real achievement was the CL but as I said before he did have a much better side - still brilliant though, as any Champions League victory is.
 
A good manager can only push a team to the limit of its ambitions, we are no longer in an age where a manager such as Brian Clough could turn a second division team into champions, it just can't happen nowadays. I would say that David Moyes has in his two jobs so far pushed both Preston and Everton to the absolute limit of his teams' capabilities, and that's all we have to judge him on. It is not ridiculous to have the debate as to whether he would be able to do a similar thing if given a bigger platform, its a debate that needs to be had.

My point about Mourinho is that yes he's been successful, but we don't yet know how much of that success to attribute to luck and how much to attribute to his managerial excellence, while in the case of Moyes his successes have been long term enough to know that it can be considered his doing.

If as many on here seem to believe the success Mourinho has had is largely attributable to his ability as a manager, then yes, there can be no comparison between him and Moyes. If one takes the alternate view, which I believe there is probably just as much evidence for, that Mourinho has mixed ability with luck and a fantastic sense of timing in terms of when to leave a job to achieve his success then the choice between the two can in fact be described as marginal, without this opinion being 'batshit crazy'.
 
If I quickly bring that back to my point about finances, in my mind if both were going to be equally expensive I would chose Mourinho, there is more evidence that he would be able to cope with the job of replacing Ferguson. However I don't think the difference is so vast as to be worth a possible 9million a year, the difference between their current contracts.

If the choice was given to me between Mourinho + Young or Moyes + Hazard I would chose the latter. I am a Manchester United fan, I want to see United winning things while being impressed with the quality of football on display, I want that first and foremost. I believe this would be more likely achieved with the latter scenario than the former.
 
Fiskey said:
A good manager can only push a team to the limit of its ambitions, we are no longer in an age where a manager such as Brian Clough could turn a second division team into champions, it just can't happen nowadays. I would say that David Moyes has in his two jobs so far pushed both Preston and Everton to the absolute limit of his teams' capabilities, and that's all we have to judge him on. It is not ridiculous to have the debate as to whether he would be able to do a similar thing if given a bigger platform, its a debate that needs to be had.

My point about Mourinho is that yes he's been successful, but we don't yet know how much of that success to attribute to luck and how much to attribute to his managerial excellence, while in the case of Moyes his successes have been long term enough to know that it can be considered his doing.

If as many on here seem to believe the success Mourinho has had is largely attributable to his ability as a manager, then yes, there can be no comparison between him and Moyes. If one takes the alternate view, which I believe there is probably just as much evidence for, that Mourinho has mixed ability with luck and a fantastic sense of timing in terms of when to leave a job to achieve his success then the choice between the two can in fact be described as marginal, without this opinion being 'batshit crazy'.
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I'm with you on Moyes but how man more titles, with how many more clubs, in how many more countries does Mourinho have to win before you put it down to ability?
 
MrMojo said:
I'm with you on Moyes but how man more titles, with how many more clubs, in how many more countries does Mourinho have to win before you put it down to ability?
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As I say I think if he wins the Champions League with Real that's even more evidence that its down to him, a problem with Mourinho and judging his career is that he hasn't stayed anywhere long enough to answer these questions, he hasn't created his own teams, merely supplemented already very good ones.

Similarly if he went to City next season and won the league and champions league it would be more evidence that he is such a special manager that he deserves his extraordinary pay packet, but it wouldn't convince me completely as there are other factors which the win could be down to.
 
One more thing to add on Moyes, for some reason I feel more connected to players which I have seen grow, will probably always prefer a Fletcher or Ronaldo to Van Persie, and Moyes has a fantastic record of developing players such as the ones listed:

Lescott
Jagielka
Howard
Arteta
Pienaar
Osman
Hibbert
Bains
Rooney
Rodwell

All of these massively improved under his stewardship, and that is something which Mourinho has not really proven, mainly because he's not been anywhere long enough to do it. It is however a skill which I would love the next Manchester United manager to have.
 
kietotheworld said:
If he's pushed Everton to their limit why hasn't he moved on?
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Loyal to the club? Has complete control over how it's run? He's paid extremely well, £3million a year which is one of the highest in football.
 
I'm really surprised he didn't go to Tottenham, I know they were heavily linked but I was certain it would go through. Seems Levy's perfect manager.

Even though Liverpool would be a good stepping stone they aren't even much better than Everton nowadays, and there is obvious reasons why they wouldn't hire him and he wouldn't want to go there. Imagine RAWK if they had sacked Kenny and hired Moyes.
 
Fiskey said:
One more thing to add on Moyes, for some reason I feel more connected to players which I have seen grow, will probably always prefer a Fletcher or Ronaldo to Van Persie, and Moyes has a fantastic record of developing players such as the ones listed:

Lescott
Jagielka
Howard
Arteta
Pienaar
Osman
Hibbert
Bains
Rooney
Rodwell

All of these massively improved under his stewardship, and that is something which Mourinho has not really proven, mainly because he's not been anywhere long enough to do it. It is however a skill which I would love the next Manchester United manager to have.
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The problem is that managing a top club is completely different. As much as he has done a great job at improving players, there's only one player there who is world class and that can't really be credited to Moyes considering he left when he was 18.

At a top club, you can't just turn average players into good ones; you have to have a squad of world class players. Moyes hasn't proven that he can do that, however Mourinho has. He's signed players like Essien, Drogba and Cech and has been largely responsible for turning them into one of the best players in the world within their respective positions at one point. He's not got a great record with youth, but how many top clubs have had great records with their youth in the past decade or so? Barcelona aside, and maybe Bayern Munich, very few clubs have gone on to produce hoards of world class players. We ourselves haven't produced a world class youngster in a good while, even if we have a prestigious history of doing so.
 
No matter how you paint it up Fiskey, to say the difference between the two is marginal is definitely batshit crazy. You can't just push aside the achievements of Mourinho as down to luck. He's won stuff everywhere he's went for feck sake.

Look, i'm not knocking Moyes, he's good at what he does, but saying it's a marginal difference is absolutely ridiculous. If not "batshit crazy" then it's downright idiotic. If Mourinho were on the open market right now you'd have owners/chairmen of every big club interested in bringing him in. Barring Barca maybe, but only because of the Madrid link. If he'd never managed Madrid they'd have him too.

This isn't true of Moyes. He's a good manager, who could well be very good/great, given an opportunity, but it's not a definite. Mourinho is already great, and up there with the best in the world. His achievements to date, should he never win anything else, will mark him down as one of the best of all time.
 
Cheesy said:
The problem is that managing a top club is completely different. As much as he has done a great job at improving players, there's only one player there who is world class and that can't really be credited to Moyes considering he left when he was 18.

At a top club, you can't just turn average players into good ones; you have to have a squad of world class players. Moyes hasn't proven that he can do that, however Mourinho has. He's signed players like Essien, Drogba and Cech and has been largely responsible for turning them into one of the best players in the world within their respective positions at one point. He's not got a great record with youth, but how many top clubs have had great records with their youth in the past decade or so? Barcelona aside, and maybe Bayern Munich, very few clubs have gone on to produce hoards of world class players. We ourselves haven't produced a world class youngster in a good while, even if we have a prestigious history of doing so.
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We have a ridiculously good recent record with young players Cheesy, really surprised you are playing it down there. Mourinho isn't in the same league as SAF in that respect.

Anyways, the issue with youth isn't just that he doesn't develop and give opportunities from the youth team, in the way that Ferguson did with Welbeck, Cleverley, Evans etc. But also that he doesn't sign and play young players, in the way Ferguson recently has with Rafael, Fabio, Jones, Smalling etc.

Two facets of a similar thing, but there is differences between the two. So whilst you are right in noting that not many teams are producing lots of world class players, that only tells half the story and doesn't affect Mourinho's ability to bring in young prospects, rather than established players.
 
The Neviller said:
No matter how you paint it up Fiskey, to say the difference between the two is marginal is definitely batshit crazy. You can't just push aside the achievements of Mourinho as down to luck. He's won stuff everywhere he's went for feck sake.

Look, i'm not knocking Moyes, he's good at what he does, but saying it's a marginal difference is absolutely ridiculous. If not "batshit crazy" then it's downright idiotic. If Mourinho were on the open market right now you'd have owners/chairmen of every big club interested in bringing him in. Barring Barca maybe, but only because of the Madrid link. If he'd never managed Madrid they'd have him too.

This isn't true of Moyes. He's a good manager, who could well be very good/great, given an opportunity, but it's not a definite. Mourinho is already great, and up there with the best in the world. His achievements to date, should he never win anything else, will mark him down as one of the best of all time.
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Nowhere in there is an argument, unless you believe that club owners are perfect judges of good managers.
 
The difference between Mourinho and Moyes is as big as that between Rooney and Darren Bent.

Bent will score you a lot of goals. Nobody is saying he is not a very good finisher. But he is no Rooney.

Actually, I want to change that. Because there is an element of uncertainty with Moyes, an unknown quantity, given that we dont know how he would handle the different pressures of a club of the size of United.

So it is more like the difference between Paul Scholes and Matt Le Tissier. Maybe Le Tissier could have played at CL level and excelled. Or maybe he would have been found out at that level.
 
Adebesi said:
The difference between Mourinho and Moyes is as big as that between Rooney and Darren Bent.

Bent will score you a lot of goals. Nobody is saying he is not a very good finisher. But he is no Rooney.
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I've written a fair bit to back up what I'm trying to say, I hope all backed with evidence. Could someone who doesn't agree do something similar instead of just stating their opinion?
 
Fiskey said:
As I say I think if he wins the Champions League with Real that's even more evidence that its down to him, a problem with Mourinho and judging his career is that he hasn't stayed anywhere long enough to answer these questions, he hasn't created his own teams, merely supplemented already very good ones.

Similarly if he went to City next season and won the league and champions league it would be more evidence that he is such a special manager that he deserves his extraordinary pay packet, but it wouldn't convince me completely as there are other factors which the win could be down to.
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You say it would be more evidence but still don't say it would fully convince you. By these standards you''ll never fully appreciate him, if he won the ECL with Madrid and then City that would be four with four different teams, yet by your standards you still would't put it down to him. That is a bit irrational.
 
MrMojo said:
You say it would be more evidence but still don't say it would fully convince you. By these standards you''ll never fully appreciate him, if he won the ECL with Madrid and then City that would be four with four different teams, yet by your standards you still would't put it down to him. That is a bit irrational.
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If he won it with both real and city then that's heading towards the standard of overwhelming evidence, I was thinking if he failed to win this year, moved to city and won.
 
londonredmaniac said:
I'd go for at least 5 managers before Moyes.
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If you're suggesting Moyes as a candidate you may as well give the job to Harry Redknapp. He's a similar manager who has also proved he can work with a higher caliber of player and at least has some European experience.

If the likes of Moyes/Redknapp are in there I could suggest at least 10-15 better.
 
Theon said:
We have a ridiculously good recent record with young players Cheesy, really surprised you are playing it down there. Mourinho isn't in the same league as SAF in that respect.

Anyways, the issue with youth isn't just that he doesn't develop and give opportunities from the youth team, in the way that Ferguson did with Welbeck, Cleverley, Evans etc. But also that he doesn't sign and play young players, in the way Ferguson recently has with Rafael, Fabio, Jones, Smalling etc.

Two facets of a similar thing, but there is differences between the two. So whilst you are right in noting that not many teams are producing lots of world class players, that only tells half the story and doesn't affect Mourinho's ability to bring in young prospects, rather than established players.
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Recently? Do we really? We have had some talented youngsters, but I don't know if there's one world class youth player we've produced in the past 5 years to be honest. We have plenty at the moment, both our own youth products and not, who could be brilliant, but we've hardly been out of this world. Mourinho hasn't really had that opportunity at some of the clubs he's been at.

My main point though is that a manager now doesn't have to be incredible with their youth products to be brilliant because a lot of clubs don't tend to rely on it, showing that it's only a minor criticism in an age that's full of big signings.
 
Cheesy said:
Recently? Do we really? We have had some talented youngsters, but I don't know if there's one world class youth player we've produced in the past 5 years to be honest. We have plenty at the moment, both our own youth products and not, who could be brilliant, but we've hardly been out of this world. Mourinho hasn't really had that opportunity at some of the clubs he's been at.

My main point though is that a manager now doesn't have to be incredible with their youth products to be brilliant because a lot of clubs don't tend to rely on it, showing that it's only a minor criticism in an age that's full of big signings.
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There's no point being preoccupied with producing 'world class' youngsters. By the definition there's only going to be one or two produced each year, and even then it will be years before they become world class by which point they might have moved on. That's just an unrealistic level of expectation from the academy IMO.

In terms of young players though, yeah I think we have done extremely well. Like I said before there are two different elements to this, 1) is players from your own academy, 2) is bringing in young prospects from abroad etc and developing them at the club. In terms of both we are doing really well. Evans, Clev and Welbeck are all key parts of the squad and came from the academy, then the likes of Rafael, Jones, Smalling, Hernandez were shrewd young purchases that have come on since joining the club. Then you have the likes of Powell and Henriquez who are the next set of youngsters looking to make an impression.

With Mourinho, he might not have had the players coming in through method 1) above, like you say some academies just might not have had the talent, though I don't necessarily believe that personally. But with method 2) I think it's undeniable he hasn't done a particularly good job. The state of the academy at Chelsea etc doesn't stop him making a signing like Rafael and then developing him the way Ferguson did, or the way we are doing with Jones now. Blaming it on the academies isn't realistic IMO, there's nothing stopping him purchasing talented youngsters and bringing them through, but he tends to buy established players instead. Moyes is more proven in that regard and for some people that is a big factor, just depends how you personally weigh it all up.
 
Cheesy said:
He won La Liga last season, managing to topple a side that's being regarded as one of the greatest of all-time. That's a major achievement in itself. He could do with a Champions League as well admittedly, but what he's done so far should be acknowledged.

Yes, he does sign players, but people seem to act as if it's an incredibly easy part of the game. At the end of the day, these players still have to fit into a team and be successful, which they often are. Money aside, the likes of Essien and Drogba were still brilliant signings. We've spent big money on players too, but it doesn't stop the likes of Rooney and Ferdinand from being excellent signings, for example.

I don't get the luck part either. He's had luck on his side, but who hasn't? We were a kick away from losing the Champions League in 2008; a minute away from losing out in 1999. Perhaps he has been lucky at times, but either way he's won the Champions League with two sides, one from Portugal remember, and has won the three major European leagues. Only a top, top manager, far better than David Moyes, can do something like that.
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Couldn't have put it better myself - funny how the better mangers and the better sides get the luck.
 
I hope not, a very good manager but does not have the European experience to manage a club like United.

He needs to move to a club like Spurs with the added pressure of striving to win something rather at a club like Everton where the priority is to stay in the PL.
 
Fiskey said:
All valid, but can be looked at a different way, what I'm saying is its quite possible to make the argument that Mourinho has been in the right place at the right time and ridden his luck.

Porto's route to the final: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_UEFA_Champions_League_Final

The big players he signed for Chelsea were Essien (£24.4m), Drogba (£24m), Carvalho (£19.85m) and Cole (£10m + Gallas), all huge signings, not matters of judgement, and they came into a side that had finished second, reached the champions league semi finals and were faced with a declining Arsenal and United sides.

Inter was as I have said above and Real he could only beat Barcelona when they had a lot of injuries, but no doubting it was a good achievement. I'm just not sure its a special achievement when you consider how much has been spent on the team that he manages, and who knows whether it could have been done by someone else.
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So it's easy to succeed in professional football if you have money to spend? No judgment involved? That's possibly the maddest thing I've heard on here.

The players you refer to we're very successful - Drogba in particular raised eyebrows when they bought him for that money but he's one of the best strikers the PL has ever seen. Essien was world class before the injuries too.

You're pushing a point to it limit, for what purpose I don't know. Like him or not Jose Mourinho has been consistently successful at big clubs, in big leagues. Simple as that. You really think it's down to luck? Look at the luck United have had over the years - two CL finals that could have gone either way, key goals in time added on in games over the course of a season. And as much bad luck as well. Funny how the best sides get "lucky".

Bottom line is you never know if any signing or managerial appointment will work out - but how do you way it up? Against talent, experience and achievements. That's why a manager with a load of trophies in his loocker from stints at massive clubs will never be out of a job for long.
 
Moyes' target was not PL survival, it was the Coming 4th Cup, which his record in is not great. Tho to be fair he raised expectations to that level, as survival was the order of the day when he arrived, so he has to take credit for that.

JD made an important point above: his lack of glamour would count against him at the first sign of trouble, when fans would get on his back and call for his head. Someone with a track record behind him will get more time when the going gets tough, making it less likely we'll end up with a managerial revolving door while City are winning everything in sight.
 
I'd also be a bit concerned at Everton's performances in big games such as the FA cup semi last year or final in 2009 - they simply didn't turn up.
 
Fiskey said:
Where would Mourinho be if that Scholes goal had not been disallowed or if Howard hadn't made that mistake. In my opinion the only fantastic achievement in his career is the treble with Inter, which was a complete tactical masterclass. Everything else hasn't been out of line with expectations.
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I think that's possibly entering silly territory, you could go down the 'what if's with all the great managers... where would Pep be if Iniesta mishit that last minute shot v Chelsea, where would Fergie be if United lost the infamous cup game etc etc.

Bottom line is class usually rises to the surface eventually, yes there will be lucky breaks along the way.. but the best capitalise on what fortune provides and prove they can achieve even without a slight helping hand from lady luck. Mourinho's proved that in spades in my opinion, whether he's the perfect manager and as god-like as people claim.. is questionable but he's a damned good coach/manager, most of his contempories bear testament to this, our own Gaffa being one of them.
 
Raees said:
I think that's possibly entering silly territory, you could go down the 'what if's with all the great managers... where would Pep be if Iniesta mishit that last minute shot v Chelsea, where would Fergie be if United lost the infamous cup game etc etc.

Bottom line is class usually rises to the surface eventually, yes there will be lucky breaks along the way.. but the best capitalise on what fortune provides and prove they can achieve even without a slight helping hand from lady luck. Mourinho's proved that in spades in my opinion, whether he's the perfect manager and as god-like as people claim.. is questionable but he's a damned good coach/manager, most of his contempories bear testament to this, our own Gaffa being one of them.
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I'd echo this. I bet if you went back and watched old Aberdeen games you'd find a few bits of luck that helped them achieve what they did. Maybe one of them is different, SAF never comes to United. I think all successful managers get moments of luck that look defining in retrospect.
 
Fiskey said:
If he won it with both real and city then that's heading towards the standard of overwhelming evidence, I was thinking if he failed to win this year, moved to city and won.
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So if he won four ECL with four different clubs he would still only be 'heading towards' proving his skill was the reason behind his success. You've clearly got an agenda against him because that's just silly.
 
Fiskey said:
Nowhere in there is an argument, unless you believe that club owners are perfect judges of good managers.
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I don't think I really need to put forward an argument to suggest that the difference between Mourinho and Moyes is more than minimal, anyone can see it.

You talk about facts, then ignore the glaring ones, namely Mourinho winning fecktonnes of trophies everywhere he's been.
 
After giving this some thought, I've completely changed my stance on Moyes. What was a resounding no, has now turned to being okay with move, but he's still not in my top 3.

While we point out his lack of experience at a bigger club as a negative, I see it as a positive and the biggest reason why I'm now okay with it. By being at Everton so long, he's gained experience of rebuilding a team a few times and with success. Only Sir Alex and Wenger can say the same thing in the Premier League. My biggest fear with bringing in a more experienced manager, is they will get the most out of the squad Sir Alex leaves them and leave shortly thereafter and then we'll be really fecked. No question that Mourinho is a far superior manager, but he's never stuck around long enough and probably never will at one club to rebuild a squad to keep them challenging after he leaves. In that respect, I think it's a choice of a few years of success then uncertainty after Sir Alex leaves or the potential for succes for a decade after Sir Alex leaves.
 
If Mourinho came to United, where would he go after? Where else is there for him to go? If he comes here he'll stay for a good while I think.
 
The Neviller said:
If Mourinho came to United, where would he go after? Where else is there for him to go? If he comes here he'll stay for a good while I think.
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PSG, Bayern, Portugese National Team, Real Madrid again if they struggle and decide to bring him back like they've done before with Capello are ones that come to mind.

I don't expect a manager to stay as long as Sir Alex did, but with Mourinho I think we could get 4 years at most out of him and some of his edicts will hurt us after he leaves. For example, his insistance on having a small squad will not allow us to slowly give experience to younger players like we've done with Rafael, Smalling, Evans, Jones and Welbeck.
 
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