Moyes So Far!

[apotheosis]

If we sack him after he finishes second, or we sack him if he can't protect the title after he wins it, that would be emulating City/Chelsea. Which I think no-one here has ever said that it what we need to do.

About your last point. What if the way he wants the team to play for, is a better version of Everton (percentage football, hoof the ball and defensive tactics)?That is something we can observe for far less than 2-3 years.

Then in 2 or 3 years time. if that's the case we'll address it. It is these extreme interpretations of a view that i can't understand. It's just pure speculation based on a very difficult start to a new era. There is work to be done with our squad, and while it is a good squad, we lack quality in the first team, and we have known that for some time.

Why Moyes should now be blamed for this lack of quality affecting results is bizarre. SAF didn't strengthen often enough with sufficient quality, and now we are looking like it's going to cost us. You cannot now place expectations on Moyes to start winning with free flowing football against big teams who we have lost regularly to over the past 2 years. He has to rebuild, asnd once he has if he doesn't do the business, then he should be judged on that.

He should not be judged on our most difficult start in years, without having sufficient time to address the problems we all know he will face. Speculating on the style of football, or where we will finish is just pointless, and is something i would expect from the media vultures, and not from our own fans.

Some people seem intent upon predicting his downfall, and then gleefully waiting for opportunities to reinforce a view he is not upto the task. Far too premature.

 

[Sarni]

I get that Sarni, we shouldnt be dogmatic with Moyes and give him 26 years come what may just because we want "stability". But is one season enough to really show what he is capable of? Isnt there a risk if he is sacked (for coming 4th or 5th for example) that we will have gone through all the pain but missed out on the payoff, just when he is starting to find his feet? It is more art than science but the question is at what point do you say, we need change, and up to what point do you accept underachievement as a part of necessary transition? You cite examples of teams that change managers, pretty much every club would be in that category, but at the extreme end you have Chelsea and Real, few of us have the stomach to go down that road. Its tough to know where to draw the line.

I think for me I would give two full seasons before I would think about changing managers, unless things went really, really badly wrong. As I said, more art than science, you would have to weigh up the specific situation you were in, but I would be uncomfortable sacking the manager before that point, I think that is the minimum required before we can make a fair assessment. Even that is quite short, if you look back to the start of SAF's tenure to make a comparison, though obviously the circumstances the club itself is in, and the way football is generally, are very different now.

I say that as I sit here now, but it is all quite meaningless. If we did come 5th this season, and then by Christmas next season were 10th, Im sure I would feel different, I guess I covered myself with the get out clause "unless things went really, really badly wrong". In the cold light of day my main concern is that, in the pursuit of following Bayern, Barca or Juve, as you said, we end up instead emulating Chelsea or City. It isnt just that it reeks of a lack of class, I honestly think it is counterproductive, and that a manager needs time to get a team playing the way he wants to.

If he's finding his feet towards the end of season and we have a promising finish that ends with us securing a CL spot then I won't have much problem with him staying. If he keeps repeating the same mistakes and we look equally rigid and bland at the end of season like we do now then chances are he won't improve much from that point, especially as we'll probably struggle to attract top footballers and fall further behind as a result. It all depends on his development from now on, I don't want him sacked because of a poor start as he may still learn his trade but likewise I don't want him to stay forever if he keeps us heading in this direction as it'll be hard to recover from if it carries on for too long.

Another thing is there aren't many managers around who could transform this side short term and provide results. I think Guardiola was our first choice but Bayern moved in quicker, he as a 3-year contract there and will definitely fulfil it, he might want to take a year off afterwards like he did after Barca spell so we might not have a shot at him until 2017. We have almost zero chance of getting Klopp and all British managers still active look a bit weak. It's all well saying we should have gone for someone with more pedigree but who else is there really? We've come across a really inconvenient time to go through a managerial change to be perfectly honest.

 

[Theon]

Agreed.

If we finish 5th while continuing to play the rubbish football we are now then he should go. But if there are signs of improvement and him making his mark on the team then he should be given another season at least

Completely agree

It is very possible that there isn't even much between the Top 5 this year for example. I don't think any team will run away with it like we did last season - City are favourites right now and they haven't looked consistently good at all, already losing twice in 6 games. Chelsea have looked no better.

Last season there was 6 points between Spurs in 5th and City in 2nd and this season it could quite easily be closer. If Moyes comes 5th but only 4 or 5 points of 2nd/1st then that is clearly a factor which should be taken into account, along with many others such as the ones you mention.

 

[Ole's_toe_poke]

Why are people drawing arbitrary lines of what constitutes a sackable season and what doesn't based on 6 league games?

Let's just see how the season pans out for atleast a few more months.

 

[Revan]

Then in 2 or 3 years time. if that's the case we'll address it. It is these extreme interpretations of a view that i can't understand. It's just pure speculation based on a very difficult start to a new era. There is work to be done with our squad, and while it is a good squad, we lack quality in the first team, and we have known that for some time.

My biggest worry is that 2-3 years will be too much if things doesn't improve. Souness didn't stayed forever at Liverpool, but they are still paying for that wrong decision

Why Moyes should now be blamed for this lack of quality affecting results is bizarre. SAF didn't strengthen often enough with sufficient quality, and now we are looking like it's going to cost us. You cannot now place expectations on Moyes to start winning with free flowing football against big teams who we have lost regularly to over the past 2 years. HeSo has to rebuild, asnd once he has if he doesn't do the business, then he should be judged on that.

People are going overboard with this lack of quality. We won the league by 11 points last year. We didn't play that good by our standards, but we weren't this much poor either. We never had a problem scoring lots of goals last season. Yes we weren't near as good as in 2006-2009 but neither as poor as Stoke.

He should not be judged on our most difficult start in years, without having sufficient time to address the problems we all know he will face. Speculating on the style of football, or where we will finish is just pointless, and is something i would expect from the media vultures, and not from our own fans.

2 seasons ago, we had Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea in our 5 five games. As much a difficult start to this one.

Speculation has always happened at this forum, and I don't see why we should stop doing that now, just because we have changed the manager. Yes, a lot of people are saying that we'll play negatively under Moyes. That isn't because we hate Moyes, but because that it how Moyes played at Everton, how Moyes is playing now, signing the player who was the center of those tactics, and hiring people who coached those tactics. It is a guess, but it is a based guess. I will be happy to look (and to be called an idiot) if this doesn't happen and we start playing in the right way

Some people seem intent upon predicting his downfall, and then gleefully waiting for opportunities to reinforce a view he is not upto the task. Far too premature.

No. No United supporter wants Moyes to fail. But we neither want to see the club fail. And if I have to choose one of them failing, I will choose Moyes every single time. Does this mean that if I have the power, I would have sacked him? fecking hell no, far from it. But neither I would have given him unlimited time because things may turn out and we'll start playing well and getting good results. Some things we can learn much faster than in 2-3 years time. And if we continue playing poor (which may either attributed to his change of coaches against Fergie's advice, or his tactics), getting shit results, not playing good technical players in favour of big hard workers, then it doesn't make sense to stick with him for some years, right? We want him to create a team in his shape, but not if that team becomes an Everton in steroids. Only time will tell of course, I am not predicting all doom and gloom but I am taking into consideration that things may go wrong, and if that's the case, we should react, not wait.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Why are people drawing arbitrary lines of what constitutes a sackable season and what doesn't based on 6 league games?

Let's just see how the season pans out for atleast a few more months.

[sarcasm]Because Moyes was never good enough for the club and has no potential to grow into the role or even as a coach, do catch up! [/sarcasm]

 

[apotheosis]

January is probably going to be a key factor in how he is judged at the end of the season. Personally i blame Woodward for not getting in who we had targeted in the summer. Had we done so, i believe we would already be in better shape to move forward, as opposed to consolidating until January. If Moyes buys 2 or 3 in January and we still struggle, then i think he will invite even more pressure upon his suitability. If however he consolidates from now until January, and then we noticably improve after strengthening (which i believe will be the case) then all this doom mongering will be proven to be premature.

Any manager who has our resources should be able to supplement what we already have and make us a serious contender for all the major trophies. But after being given the time to make his mark on the club.
Many probably think Brendan Rodgers should have gone after failing to finish 4th. But we look at Liverpool now after he has had a chance to sign who he wants and shape the team into playing the way he wants them to, we can clearly see the significant improvement they have made from last season.

However now i feel Rodgers has what he needs in place, and failure to get 4th spot at least would have to be seen as a failure. Surely Moyes deserves a similar amount of time to address our weaknesses and put us in a better position to improve.

 

[MoneyMay]

The most damning thing that I can say about moyes reign so far has been the lowering of expectations. We are the champions of England, a team that has dominated the premier league since its inception and we should be aiming to win the CL not debating whether moyes will keep his job if we finish fourth or not. Are we seriously going to consider it a good season if we scrape into the CL based on a qualifier? Thats on the same level as spurs who are nowhere near being title challengers. So changing managers has basically put both our clubs on a similar platform?

Thats bullshit plain and simple. Look at bayern, are they thinking of qualifying for the Cl or winning it? Or even barca,real or city after they have changed their managers? Anyone of those teams finishes fourth the manager would be sacked as the club expects more, the fan expects more. But for some weird reason most of the Caf thinks it perfectly alright for a team like ours to finish fourth in a new season.

The excuses of moyes are getting more and more baffling. He started too late, one of the first things that was said about him when we hired him was that he is a workaholic who has already started to know the team,players,etc but apparently lose a few games and that changes everything. He also seemingly doesnt know most of our players or follow any kind of football coverage despite managing in the same league which was suppose to be another plus point of his.

This team destroyed the PL last year and any criticisms like the league is too weak were scoffed at but now apparently we are a team that should be happy finishing fourth and being disappointed at that is equal to being a spoil sport. Baffling.

We're in a transition period, it's the end of the era. If we had a Guardiola at Manchester United, then people wouldn't lower their expectations. It's only natural. I think we'll finish 2nd and Arsenal will win the league. I said that at the start of the season.

You talk about Bayern Munich, but that's a completely different story. Guardiola has taken over a side that won the treble, and he is a renowned tactician, ultimately the best in the world at the moment. Some fans of Bayern Munich lowered their expectations actually because they thought Guardiola would ruin the current team with his philosophy. Look how that's turned out. You simply can't compare Moyes to Guardiola, really... That's just insulting and clutching at straws.

Defending him is great, that's just a terrible way of doing it. Surely there's more you could point to from his time at Everton than a bullshit award? I'd doubt it even means that much to Moyes, it's a nonsense popularity vote. Might as well sign Scottie Parker as he won some awards too, didn't he?

Sorry, but what is this? He picked up manager of the year three times in the Premier League, while there were a couple of great tacticians (Fergie, Wenger, etc.). To defend him using this is no problem IMO... It shows that he actually knows what he's doing. Still a massive route to take, but most of the stuff that's been said in this thread is cringe-worthy, and maybe these so-called "fans" should support Real Madrid.

 

[Theon]

maybe these so-called "fans" should support Real Madrid.

No doubt many of them will end up doing that (seriously).

 

[apotheosis]

My biggest worry is that 2-3 years will be too much if things doesn't improve. Souness didn't stayed forever at Liverpool, but they are still paying for that wrong decision

Indeed. But we are a way off that point yet. The bottom line for me is the start we have had is a difficult one. We have lost RVP at a very important time and our weaknesses have not yet been addressed as we would have hoped. We need to take that into consideration. For me WBA is the only game we have lost that we would have expected to win. Liverpool and City away, and Chelsea at home are no gimmes.

People are going overboard with this lack of quality. We won the league by 11 points last year. We didn't play that good by our standards, but we weren't this much poor either. We never had a problem scoring lots of goals last season. Yes we weren't near as good as in 2006-2009 but neither as poor as Stoke.

Not really. We know the midfield is weak, and we have suffered in many a big game under SAF because of it. Do you honestly believe we would have fared any better under SAF in these crunch fixtures? We certainly didn't last season, at the end of last season we lost at OT against City and Chelsea, drew away at Arsenal, and failed to beat Chelsea in either of the cup games.

SAF hasn't signed a midfielder of note for 6 years. Based on that we would have been in no better position to win these early games under SAF, than we have been under Moyes. I need more games like the WEst Brom game, that is where we can look with some certainty and say the team did not produce.

2 seasons ago, we had Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea in our 5 five games. As much a difficult start to this one.

Speculation has always happened at this forum, and I don't see why we should stop doing that now, just because we have changed the manager. Yes, a lot of people are saying that we'll play negatively under Moyes. That isn't because we hate Moyes, but because that it how Moyes played at Everton, how Moyes is playing now, signing the player who was the center of those tactics, and hiring people who coached those tactics. It is a guess, but it is a based guess. I will be happy to look (and to be called an idiot) if this doesn't happen and we start playing in the right way

Spurs and Arsenal and Chelsea at home is not comparable to Liverpool and City away, and a Mourinho Chelsea. Moyes played that way at Everton due to squad size and limited resources. Concluding that he will continue in the same vein because he has bought Fellaini on the final day after failing to land multiple other more preferable targets is again jumping the gun.

He has bought what he knows he can rely upon, when he had little choice other than not strengtheing at all until January.

No. No United supporter wants Moyes to fail. But we neither want to see the club fail. And if I have to choose one of them failing, I will choose Moyes every single time. Does this mean that if I have the power, I would have sacked him? fecking hell no, far from it. But neither I would have given him unlimited time because things may turn out and we'll start playing well and getting good results. Some things we can learn much faster than in 2-3 years time. And if we continue playing poor (which may either attributed to his change of coaches against Fergie's advice, or his tactics), getting shit results, not playing good technical players in favour of big hard workers, then it doesn't make sense to stick with him for some years, right? We want him to create a team in his shape, but not if that team becomes an Everton in steroids. Only time will tell of course, I am not predicting all doom and gloom but I am taking into consideration that things may go wrong, and if that's the case, we should react, not wait.

Unlimited time is really just as ridiculous a concept as not enough time. All i am saying is that predicting doom now, based upon only a few very difficult fixtures is extremely premature. We have some far easier fixtures coming up, where even our problems in midfield should'nt prove too much of an issue. It hasn't in the past, it's the big games where our inadequate midfield has proven a problem. So this may be a far better barometer of what we can expect from Moyes, rather than basing our views amidst the disappointment of the results of some of our most difficult annual fixtures.

 

[Revan]

and maybe these so-called "fans" should support Real Madrid.

Ridiculous. Criticize the manager/players = 'go support City/Chelsea/Madrid'.

 

[Sarni]

We lost to Chelsea and drew at Emirates when we already had a title in the bag, go compare our results to the ones we recorded when it still mattered.

 

[Revan]

Indeed. But we are a way off that point yet. The bottom line for me is the start we have had is a difficult one. We have lost RVP at a very important time and our weaknesses have not yet been addressed as we would have hoped. We need to take that into consideration. For me WBA is the only game we have lost that we would have expected to win. Liverpool and City away, and Chelsea at home are no gimmes.

Not gimmes, but not great teams also. We should have done better, but the results doesn't bother me, cause titles are neither won, nor lost this early. The performances on the other side were painful to watch

We know the midfield is weak, and we have suffered in many a big game under SAF because of it. Do you honestly believe we would have fared any better under SAF in these crunch fixtures? We certainly didn't last season, at the end of last season we lost at OT against City and Chelsea, drew away at Arsenal, and failed to beat Chelsea in either of the cup games.

Absolutelly. We won against Chelsea, Liverpool and City away. We won against Liverpool and Arsenal at home. Yep, we lost against City at home which was pretty shit. Against Chelsea on the other side, doesn't matter cause we had already won the title.

He has bought what he knows he can rely upon, when he had little choice other than not strengtheing at all until January.

He bough Fellaini, whom everybody here predicted that he'll get from May, after he failed to sign Fabregas after everybody here predicted that we'll fail. Poor management at best, giving the impression that he's looking for players outside of Everton at worst.

 

[sullydnl]

Sorry, but what is this? He picked up manager of the year three times in the Premier League, while there were a couple of great tacticians (Fergie, Wenger, etc.). To defend him using this is no problem IMO... It shows that he actually knows what he's doing. Still a massive route to take, but most of the stuff that's been said in this thread is cringe-worthy, and maybe these so-called "fans" should support Real Madrid.

End of year awards mean absolutely nothing. They don't prove anything about how good or bad a player or manager is, they're just a popularity award, a glorified pat on the back. You can defend him with it if you want but it's a really crap defence. Seriously, previous winners include Roy Hodgson, Alan Pardew, Steve Coppell (twice), Dave Jones, Alan Curbishley, Danny Wilson, Peter Reid, Joe Kinnear. Hardly a bunch of high flyers.

Of all the ways to defend Moyes from accusations of mediocrity, pointing to an award that is usually won by mediocre, British, mid-table managers is pretty weak.

 

[devilish]

Sorry, but what is this? He picked up manager of the year three times in the Premier League, while there were a couple of great tacticians (Fergie, Wenger, etc.). To defend him using this is no problem IMO... It shows that he actually knows what he's doing. Still a massive route to take, but most of the stuff that's been said in this thread is cringe-worthy, and maybe these so-called "fans" should support Real Madrid.

Ah if only United get relegated to 1st division and then to 2nd division and after that to 3rd division and non league. Yeah it would ruin the club, many people would lose their job etc. We would probably have to sell OT, Carrington + Sir Matt Busby, the holy trinity and the random person who impersonated SAF monuments will have to be melted. However if that's the price to pay so that redcafe will end up the nest of all top reds so be it.

 

[MoneyMay]

Ridiculous. Criticize the manager/players = 'go support City/Chelsea/Madrid'.

You missed the point, and I don't understand why you're wound up - maybe you're one of these people I'm describing... If comments - and I'm paraphrasing here - like "Moyes isn't going to make it here" are acceptable, then that actually shows how foolish and puerile our fans are. That's pessimism and it epitomises how spoilt some of these "fans" are. Criticism is good, I've already criticised Moyes for his tactics and many others have done the same, but going to the extreme represents faux fans.

 

[Revan]

You missed the point, and I don't understand why you're wound up - maybe you're one of these people I'm describing... If comments - and I'm paraphrasing here - like "Moyes isn't going to make it here" are acceptable, then that actually shows how foolish and puerile our fans are. That's pessimism and it epitomises how spoilt some of these "fans" are. Criticism is good, I've already criticised Moyes for his tactics and many others have done the same, but going to the extreme represents faux fans.

Yep. Haven't you noticed that I am spending less time in this forum? You know why? I am posting a lot in Real Madrid forum, discussing the tactics, players and the wonderful future.

'Moyes isn't going to make it here' hasn't been said so much. But on the other said, if it has been said by posters who never wanted Moyes here and wanted 'anyone but Moyes' then people have the right of expressing their opinions, right? Unless you think that Moyes has been that good that it was impossible for these people to change their opinion on how good Moyes is. If someone thought that Moyes won't ever win a title at United 2-3 years ago (before I signed up here and before SAF had any plan to retire) then the start of the season wouldn't have changed that much their opinions. And go watch, the majority of people said that.

 

[MoneyMay]

Yep. Haven't you noticed that I am spending less time in this forum? You know why? I am posting a lot in Real Madrid forum, discussing the tactics, players and the wonderful future.

'Moyes isn't going to make it here' hasn't been said so much. But on the other said, if it has been said by posters who never wanted Moyes here and wanted 'anyone but Moyes' then people have the right of expressing their opinions, right? Unless you think that Moyes has been that good that it was impossible for these people to change their opinion on how good Moyes is. If someone thought that Moyes won't ever win a title at United 2-3 years ago (before I signed up here and before SAF had any plan to retire) then the start of the season wouldn't have changed that much their opinions. And go watch, the majority of people said that.

Thank God I am not one of these Top Reds, the ones who back every player (and manager). I can sense you being offended. Either read my last post again, or move on, instead of acting puerile. It really is that simple. People have a right of expressing their opinions, correct, but we don't need to be told by these people that he wasn't the right choice. Criticise the manager, I'm up for that, I've already done that, and will continue to do that. But there's a big difference. Why not actually give him time and then make another judgement on him at the end of the season? One of the posts in this thread was comparing Moyes to Guardiola, one of the best tacticians ever. How is that fair? Plus, the squad is significantly stronger at Bayern Munich and the players can adapt to different systems. Really, I'm just trying to be reasonable at the moment.

 

[sullydnl]

Thank God I am not one of these Top Reds, the ones who back every player (and manager). I can sense you being offended. Either read my last post again, or move on, instead of acting puerile. It really is that simple. People have a right of expressing their opinions, correct, but we don't need to be told by these people that he wasn't the right choice. Criticise the manager, I'm up for that, I've already done that, and will continue to do that. But there's a big difference. Why not actually give him time and then make another judgement on him at the end of the season? One of the posts in this thread was comparing Moyes to Guardiola, one of the best tacticians ever. How is that fair? Plus, the squad is significantly stronger at Bayern Munich and the players can adapt to different systems. Really, I'm just trying to be reasonable at the moment.

Surely it's inevitable that Moyes will be compared with the likes of Guardiola? I mean, he's the manager of Manchester United. That means the club thought he was a top class manager, someone who can rival the other top managers like Guardiola, Mourinho, Wenger, Ancelotti, etc. That's the level he has to operate at and, while we obviously have to give him time to actually show us what he can do, that's the standard we're looking for from Moyes.

 

[MoneyMay]

Surely it's inevitable that Moyes will be compared with the likes of Guardiola? I mean, he's the manager of Manchester United. That means the club thought he was a top class manager, someone who can rival the other top managers like Guardiola, Mourinho, Wenger, Ancelotti, etc. That's the level he has to operate at and, while we obviously have to give him time to actually show us what he can do, that's the standard we're looking for from Moyes.

It's a stupid comparison.

Edit - When we faced Barcelona, did we rival them? Or how long did it take for Mourinho to rival Guardiola's Barcelona?

 

[sullydnl]

It's a stupid comparison.

Edit - When we faced Barcelona, did we rival them? Or how long did it take for Mourinho to rival Guardiola's Barcelona?

Yeah, I'd say we rivalled them. Obviously they were better but it's fair to say we were the second best team in Europe during that period. Mourinho took a league title from them too, despite his time at Real probably being a failure overall. I'm not saying I expect Moyes to achieve the ridiculously amazing results Guardiola did, just that he needs to be up there with the other elite managers. If he is then comparisons will naturally occur. Do you think the club would've hired Moyes if they didn't think he could match up to the very best managers in the game?

 

[Beachryan]

He needs to hire a PR manager, and he needs to do himself some image favors. He's literally doing everything wrong at the moment. A helpful guide to keeping your job David:

1. Just. Shut. Up. If the press are baiting you into these idiotic, morale-damaging statements then just don't answer them. You think RVP wants to hear about how bad this squad is? You think potential targets do? You think that we won the league last year because our opponents were poor? Keep those opinions to yourself. We are the champions of England, the consistently best team over 2 decades and we will continue to be. That's all you should say.

2. Don't be conservative if it's not going to work. A lot of United fans were a bit concerned about your generally safety-first tactic, but fine, if it means lots of clean sheets than at worse we'll draw matches. So do your negative thing, and we'll build a solid base from which the attack can start to develop. Oh, we've conceded 8 in 4 matches with your defensive shape? Then f*ck it, let's maybe not do that then.

3. The world isn't wrong. Give Shinji a chance. You've given lots of minutes to Tony V, Ashley Young and Ryan Giggs. And we create nothing. So, why not listen to the fans, to other coaches, to the whole f*cking footballing world and try that little playmaker we bought last year. In his position. And build around that. Give it a go. For two matches in a row. What do you have to lose?

4. Build like you're going somewhere. If we're going to finish in our worst position in 20 years that's okay, as long as we can all see what you're building towards. We have major issues in our squad,and we need a period of transition. Transition is the key word here. We're not transitioning at the moment. We're playing the same old way with the same old players.

I really think that's all he needs to do. We're United fans, we're not going to turn on him this season, unless he continues to make every mistake possible both on and off the field. We're playing worse football, creating less, conceding more and all the while he's digging the hole ever deeper with stupid, unnecessary comments in the press.

At present, I don't think we're better in any single way since he took over.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

Great post MJJ. It's strange to see how people who are defending Moyes are the same ones who are perfectly fine with us finishing fourth (or in one extreme case, getting relegated) which makes me think thay deep down they don't trust that Moyes is the right manager at all.

If also interesting how you can't make an argument without lumping everyone into a vague pile of nonsense.

I don't want to finish forth and your relegation comment is obviously ridiculous, yet used to undermine an entire group of fans.

I also belive Moyes will find his way.

Special post there, though. Give yourself a star.

 

[Ole's_toe_poke]

An interview on David Moyes. Interesting read all round.

http://thebusbybabe.sbnation.com/20...hester-united-scouting-staff-management-style


Does sound like he is an obsessive when it comes to player scouting and analysis. Will certainly explain why he wasn't perhaps prepared to take a risk on certain players this summer without watching them.

Maybe he keeps mentioning "getting to know the players" all the time because he likes to be extremely thorough.

 

[humdinger]

I really think he'll come good and pull us through. It's so far been a bit painful waiting for it to click though.

 

[Stack]

Steve Bruces comments on Moyes were pretty reasonable.

 

[devilish]

He needs to hire a PR manager, and he needs to do himself some image favors. He's literally doing everything wrong at the moment. A helpful guide to keeping your job David:

1. Just. Shut. Up. If the press are baiting you into these idiotic, morale-damaging statements then just don't answer them. You think RVP wants to hear about how bad this squad is? You think potential targets do? You think that we won the league last year because our opponents were poor? Keep those opinions to yourself. We are the champions of England, the consistently best team over 2 decades and we will continue to be. That's all you should say.

2. Don't be conservative if it's not going to work. A lot of United fans were a bit concerned about your generally safety-first tactic, but fine, if it means lots of clean sheets than at worse we'll draw matches. So do your negative thing, and we'll build a solid base from which the attack can start to develop. Oh, we've conceded 8 in 4 matches with your defensive shape? Then f*ck it, let's maybe not do that then.

3. The world isn't wrong. Give Shinji a chance. You've given lots of minutes to Tony V, Ashley Young and Ryan Giggs. And we create nothing. So, why not listen to the fans, to other coaches, to the whole f*cking footballing world and try that little playmaker we bought last year. In his position. And build around that. Give it a go. For two matches in a row. What do you have to lose?

4. Build like you're going somewhere. If we're going to finish in our worst position in 20 years that's okay, as long as we can all see what you're building towards. We have major issues in our squad,and we need a period of transition. Transition is the key word here. We're not transitioning at the moment. We're playing the same old way with the same old players.

I really think that's all he needs to do. We're United fans, we're not going to turn on him this season, unless he continues to make every mistake possible both on and off the field. We're playing worse football, creating less, conceding more and all the while he's digging the hole ever deeper with stupid, unnecessary comments in the press.

At present, I don't think we're better in any single way since he took over.

Two decades are a long time in football and things change. Take a look at this side. We once had some of the best wingers ever. Now we've got Nani, some promising kids and two one trick ponies. In midfield we had the best defensive midfielder of his era and one of the most creative midfielders ever. Now we've got a good DM and some random big guy whose more renowned for his aerial ability and his work with his elbows then for his vision, creativity and technique. Teams change and therefore the approach must change.

I agree with much of your posts and my point is to add another point (which is addressed to Manchester United as a whole INCLUDING the fans). We have some promising kids around HOWEVER we're light years away from the top European sides, whom, unlike us, have the HUMILITY to keep on adding top players to their squad in a bid to remain on top. Its time to get off our high horse and admit it. The franchise may be the best in the world however the squad certainly doesn't reflect that and in terms of players we're not the most attractive club there is. Once we stop with this 'United the best club in the world', 'No one can replace Ryan Giggs/Paul Scholes' and 'players would die to come here' BS then we can start rebuilding this side.

The strategy of buying mid EPL table club player signings in a bid to contain the spending has failed. Players like Young, Valencia and Fellaini may be great in keeping the fort in the EPL but they won't outclass Bayern or Barcelona. Its time for some brave decisions and some real investment. Id say cut the dead wood, give a chance to youths and invest the money on top quality players who would really make a difference in our squad.

 

[gasmanc]

The way this thread has run it seems if united had employed the services of a "bigger" name then more patience would be allowed. As it stands those bigger name managers are stuttering also even Pep at the finished article Bayern has found the transition difficult and those bigger names have all taken on so called better squads.

 

[#07]

He needs to hire a PR manager, and he needs to do himself some image favors. He's literally doing everything wrong at the moment. A helpful guide to keeping your job David:

1. Just. Shut. Up. If the press are baiting you into these idiotic, morale-damaging statements then just don't answer them. You think RVP wants to hear about how bad this squad is? You think potential targets do? You think that we won the league last year because our opponents were poor? Keep those opinions to yourself. We are the champions of England, the consistently best team over 2 decades and we will continue to be. That's all you should say.

2. Don't be conservative if it's not going to work. A lot of United fans were a bit concerned about your generally safety-first tactic, but fine, if it means lots of clean sheets than at worse we'll draw matches. So do your negative thing, and we'll build a solid base from which the attack can start to develop. Oh, we've conceded 8 in 4 matches with your defensive shape? Then f*ck it, let's maybe not do that then.

3. The world isn't wrong. Give Shinji a chance. You've given lots of minutes to Tony V, Ashley Young and Ryan Giggs. And we create nothing. So, why not listen to the fans, to other coaches, to the whole f*cking footballing world and try that little playmaker we bought last year. In his position. And build around that. Give it a go. For two matches in a row. What do you have to lose?

4. Build like you're going somewhere. If we're going to finish in our worst position in 20 years that's okay, as long as we can all see what you're building towards. We have major issues in our squad,and we need a period of transition. Transition is the key word here. We're not transitioning at the moment. We're playing the same old way with the same old players.

I really think that's all he needs to do. We're United fans, we're not going to turn on him this season, unless he continues to make every mistake possible both on and off the field. We're playing worse football, creating less, conceding more and all the while he's digging the hole ever deeper with stupid, unnecessary comments in the press.

At present, I don't think we're better in any single way since he took over.

This. Especially points 1 and 2.

 

[Sarni]

The way this thread has run it seems if united had employed the services of a "bigger" name then more patience would be allowed. As it stands those bigger name managers are stuttering also even Pep at the finished article Bayern has found the transition difficult and those bigger names have all taken on so called better squads.

Bayern have won all but one game this season while playing some impressive football. I don't get where do you get idea of Pep finding it difficult there to be honest.

 

[gasmanc]

Bayern have won all but one game this season while playing some impressive football. I don't get where do you get idea of Pep finding it difficult there to be honest.

The squad he's inherited should be winning every game, it really is a vastly deep and talented pool of players. It has however shown already that less talented teams can approach them with a willingness to defend and use muscle to get results, it could well be their undoing at some point.
Pep is easily the worst example due to the squad he has inherited but the point still remains. People are looking at the name of the coach and the past record and making assumptions from that, and assumptions is exactly what they are. Had Pep stepped into Fergies shoes and played expansive attacking football and finished up with 7 points or even less I will make the assumption this whole debate would be a damn sight more positive.
A lot have been guilty of a somewhat blinkered view and perhaps the generally stuck up opinion that United deserve a better name manager than the unfashionable Mr Moyes.

 

[devilish]

The squad he's inherited should be winning every game, it really is a vastly deep and talented pool of players. It has however shown already that less talented teams can approach them with a willingness to defend and use muscle to get results, it could well be their undoing at some point.
Pep is easily the worst example due to the squad he has inherited but the point still remains. People are looking at the name of the coach and the past record and making assumptions from that, and assumptions is exactly what they are. Had Pep stepped into Fergies shoes and played expansive attacking football and finished up with 7 points or even less I will make the assumption this whole debate would be a damn sight more positive.
A lot have been guilty of a somewhat blinkered view and perhaps the generally stuck up opinion that United deserve a better name manager than the unfashionable Mr Moyes.

If Guardiola came to United then he would have probably signed Thiago and either brought his own men (the same who made Barcelona proud)/sticked with Ferguson former staff. Instead we brought Moyes who brought half Everton with him including 27m rated Fellaini.

Guardiola made a name because he had been successful under all roles he covered. As youth coach he was able to turn things around at Barca and produce some of the best talent ever. As manager he was able to make the transition from reserve level to first team level as smooth as possible, turning Barcelona into a creative juggernaut. Such revolution would have been pretty welcome in our club were we're struggling to create anything and we've haven't produced 1 world class player since the Fergie Babes. Can you blame fans for wanting Pep more then someone whose football is pretty much boring and has no idea of what winning honours mean?

 

[Sarni]

The squad he's inherited should be winning every game, it really is a vastly deep and talented pool of players. It has however shown already that less talented teams can approach them with a willingness to defend and use muscle to get results, it could well be their undoing at some point.
Pep is easily the worst example due to the squad he has inherited but the point still remains. People are looking at the name of the coach and the past record and making assumptions from that, and assumptions is exactly what they are. Had Pep stepped into Fergies shoes and played expansive attacking football and finished up with 7 points or even less I will make the assumption this whole debate would be a damn sight more positive.
A lot have been guilty of a somewhat blinkered view and perhaps the generally stuck up opinion that United deserve a better name manager than the unfashionable Mr Moyes.

Erm, so he's finding it difficult because he hasn't won all games? That's actually insane, they are top of the league and basically won their CL group already with that 3-1 win at Etihad.

 

[Sarni]

If Guardiola came to United then he would have signed Thiago instead of that tall piece of erm....

Anyway Guardiola made a name because he's been brilliant as youth coach and such brilliance was translated at top level, making Barca the strongest side in the world. Such revolution would have been pretty welcome in our club were we're struggling to create anything and we've haven't produced 1 world class player since the Fergie Babes. Can you blame fans for wanting Pep more then someone whose football is pretty much boring and has no idea of what winning honours mean?

We'd have got Guardiola if he were still available at the time. You cannot underestimate his ability to transform teams and club's philosophy, even if he were here for only 3-4 years positive effects of his stay would go beyond that.

 

[devilish]

We'd have got Guardiola if he were still available at the time. You cannot underestimate his ability to transform teams and club's philosophy, even if he were here for only 3-4 years positive effects of his stay would go beyond that.

Why the hell we have allowed one of the best managers in the world to go on a free with Bayern without even putting a fight for it, only for SAF to retire few months after the deal was announced? It baffles me greatly. I mean someone who love United would surely retire if the right man was in the market and yet SAF insisted on remaining in power up until the big guys have declared unavailable (Klopp and Guardiola). FFS we've gave a manager who had never won anything and who had never played in the CL a 6 year contract! Do these contracts exist anymore at top flight?

I dont hate Moyes. In fact you'll find plenty of posts were I defended him. However I feel that someone somewhere has made sure that we ended up with this manager whose pretty old school (ie he wont rock the owner's boat too much)

 

[Revan]

The way this thread has run it seems if united had employed the services of a "bigger" name then more patience would be allowed. As it stands those bigger name managers are stuttering also even Pep at the finished article Bayern has found the transition difficult and those bigger names have all taken on so called better squads.

If we sign Messi and he has 5 shit games, we wouldn't be going mad, because we know what he can do. If we sign Milner and he has 5 Milner performances then we would go mad because looking at his past we don't have anything to suggest that he'll ever become that great for us. Yep if Milner starts playing like Messi we would be very excited, but if Milner plays like Milner, well there isn't much to hope for.

 

[gasmanc]

Erm, so he's finding it difficult because he hasn't won all games? That's actually insane, they are top of the league and basically won their CL group already with that 3-1 win at Etihad.

Lesser teams have found a way to get at Bayern, see a misfiring Chelsea in the super cup. They will probably become unplayable again but there has been a difference. Like I said he is the worst example he did come in for early criticism but that squad is a beast.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

An interview on David Moyes. Interesting read all round.

http://thebusbybabe.sbnation.com/20...hester-united-scouting-staff-management-style


Does sound like he is an obsessive when it comes to player scouting and analysis. Will certainly explain why he wasn't perhaps prepared to take a risk on certain players this summer without watching them.

Maybe he keeps mentioning "getting to know the players" all the time because he likes to be extremely thorough.

Yeah I read that I was just coming in here to post the link! Really good read, not limited to just the scouting aspect, a lot about the man himself.

 

[Brophs]

He needs to hire a PR manager, and he needs to do himself some image favors. He's literally doing everything wrong at the moment. A helpful guide to keeping your job David:

A P.R. manager? I think he just needs to hire himself a how-the-feck-do-I-stop-the-'fans'-jumping-every-word-I-pissing-well-utter manager.

1. Just. Shut. Up. If the press are baiting you into these idiotic, morale-damaging statements then just don't answer them. You think RVP wants to hear about how bad this squad is? You think potential targets do? You think that we won the league last year because our opponents were poor? Keep those opinions to yourself. We are the champions of England, the consistently best team over 2 decades and we will continue to be. That's all you should say.

Or, as a bit of balance, what's being said in public is an attempt to manager the ridiculous expectations of supporters.

2. Don't be conservative if it's not going to work. A lot of United fans were a bit concerned about your generally safety-first tactic, but fine, if it means lots of clean sheets than at worse we'll draw matches. So do your negative thing, and we'll build a solid base from which the attack can start to develop. Oh, we've conceded 8 in 4 matches with your defensive shape? Then f*ck it, let's maybe not do that then.

Yeah, four games ought to do it when you're trying to take over the biggest job in football, from a manager who had been there for 26 years and players who, in many cases, had been playing under him for years. It takes time to get your message across. Plus the players are basically getting off easily on this, when many of them have let Moyes down. Did Moyes' system cause Rio to get too square to Amalfitano at the weekend and let him run through? Did it stop Valencia doing his job and tracking back in the derby? I'm sure some of the fault is Moyes', but he's trying to shape his team in his image. It takes time.

3. The world isn't wrong. Give Shinji a chance. You've given lots of minutes to Tony V, Ashley Young and Ryan Giggs. And we create nothing. So, why not listen to the fans, to other coaches, to the whole f*cking footballing world and try that little playmaker we bought last year. In his position. And build around that. Give it a go. For two matches in a row. What do you have to lose?

No one gives a feck what the world thinks. This isn't X Factor. We don't all get a vote. He and his team around him have forgotten more than every one of us internet dickheads. He picks the team he thinks will get results. That's what happens when you hire a Moyes, who needs to have absolute authority over the club in an attempt to build another dynasty, instead of someone like Ancelotti, who just manages what's in front of him and takes his payoff down the line. Broadly speaking, I'd like to see Kagawa play more often. But if he doesn't fit Moyes' system, or he doesn't fancy him as a player, so be it. Better players than him have been and gone.

4. Build like you're going somewhere. If we're going to finish in our worst position in 20 years that's okay, as long as we can all see what you're building towards. We have major issues in our squad,and we need a period of transition. Transition is the key word here. We're not transitioning at the moment. We're playing the same old way with the same old players.

This is just nonsense.

I really think that's all he needs to do. We're United fans, we're not going to turn on him this season, unless he continues to make every mistake possible both on and off the field. We're playing worse football, creating less, conceding more and all the while he's digging the hole ever deeper with stupid, unnecessary comments in the press.

If we lost a couple more games you'd have turned on him within the month. You post isn't exactly reeking of balance.

At present, I don't think we're better in any single way since he took over.

Possibly not. But to repeat, we're barely a couple of months into the season. How many managers could come in and immediately improve a Fergie team? It takes time, patience and allowing the manager to impose his ideas in the way he wants to. If he fails after that, then that's his issue. However anyone with a bit of sense knows we're miles from that point.

 

[gasmanc]

If Guardiola came to United then he would have probably signed Thiago and either brought his own men (the same who made Barcelona proud)/sticked with Ferguson former staff. Instead we brought Moyes who brought half Everton with him including 27m rated Fellaini.

Guardiola made a name because he had been successful under all roles he covered. As youth coach he was able to turn things around at Barca and produce some of the best talent ever. As manager he was able to make the transition from reserve level to first team level as smooth as possible, turning Barcelona into a creative juggernaut. Such revolution would have been pretty welcome in our club were we're struggling to create anything and we've haven't produced 1 world class player since the Fergie Babes. Can you blame fans for wanting Pep more then someone whose football is pretty much boring and has no idea of what winning honours mean?

There's a lot of assumption in there mate, we don't know he would have signed Thiago we don't even know if he will be as good as he's hyped to be yet.
While I agree that Guardiola did exceptional things at Barcelona I would ask where is that creative juggernaut now ? Pep left the club when it was at the very peak of it's powers and we had the misfortune to come up against it for Europe's top prize but Messi,Xavi,Iniesta and the like where freaks, something we rarely see like our own group of "kids" in Becks,Scholes etc. I am not here to argue Pep's talent as a coach as we all know what he is capable of but Barca are now hitting the transfer market to bolster their own squad.
We may well have approached all of these top "branded" managers but perhaps our transfer policy turned them off, if I make my own assumptions here then possibly the board saw what Moyes can do on a limited budget and saw the perfect replacement for Ferguson and the perfect way to have our club make maximum return from minimum outlay (there is a thread regarding Fergusons final years).

We would all love to have a fashionable name in charge buying the best players and playing expansive attacking football but rather than making assumptions on what who would have done differently and of course predicting the future of the current manager then why not let it all unfold before casting judgement so early. No good will come off this negativity and it will merely serve to damage the club.