Moyes So Far!

[sglowrider]

The thing is if we use the argument that we are replacing a manager who has been there 27yrs (unlike other clubs) then why did Moyes keep some of the brains (and keep some of the systems) from that period? Yes this ol chestnut again. Succession planning issue.

 

[Adebesi]

Good post Apotheosis. The only thing I slightly disagree with is the state of our squad. When you say "it is my belief that SAF squeezed every last bit he could out of this team", I feel like you are underestimating what SAF left behind. Yes some work is needed but we have the foundations of a very good young side already in place in DDG, Da Silvas, Smalling, Evans, Jones, Welbeck and Chicharito. Add in Rooney and Nani who still have plenty to give at one end, and the likes of Januzaj on the other, and we are in very reasonable shape. I dont think a major rebuild is needed. The midfield needs major work and Moyes will probably want to reconstruct us in his own image in terms of shape and style, but most of the personnel are in place IMO. This is why I think, while a year of transition is acceptable, there is no reason a lull should go on and on. We are in good shape. People just need to get used to the change and we can get back to winning ways Im sure. Or at least being strong contenders: as you say, our rivals are much stronger and we have no god given right to win things.

 

[apotheosis]

Or maybe we just accept that he needs time to find his bearings. I'd say that any reasonably minded supporter knew that would be the case, along with Sir Alex, the club and David Moyes himself.

To add to that we should also appreciate the task he has ahead of him. He is not inheriting a team at it's peak, where he simply has to continue what has gone before. He has some major rebuilding to do in midfield and defence, and also in terms of finding a more progressive system that will enable us to beleive we can seriously challenge the likes of Barca and Bayern for the CL.

How anyone can now place expectations of winning the CL under Moyes, when few believed we could do the same under SAF is unrealistic and naive in my view.

 

[Adebesi]

Does anyone think we are going to win the CL?

Oh how adorably clueless.

I saw an article in the Guardian today, it said something like, "Moyes has denied rumours that the club are considering bringing SAF back after Man United's faulty start." I hadnt heard any such rumours. Surely nobody was seriously advocating that? Surely nobody thinks that is actually going to happen? Unless the parallels we already have with the post-Busby era are not enough. Honestly, you have to sympathise with Moyes, it was always going to be a poison chalice to some extent, taking this job, but somehow it still surprises me watching the inevitable unfold.

 

[apotheosis]

Good post Apotheosis. The only thing I slightly disagree with is the state of our squad. When you say "it is my belief that SAF squeezed every last bit he could out of this team", I feel like you are underestimating what SAF left behind. Yes some work is needed but we have the foundations of a very good young side already in place in DDG, Da Silvas, Smalling, Evans, Jones, Welbeck and Chicharito. Add in Rooney and Nani who still have plenty to give at one end, and the likes of Januzaj on the other, and we are in very reasonable shape. I dont think a major rebuild is needed. The midfield needs major work and Moyes will probably want to reconstruct us in his own image in terms of shape and style, but most of the personnel are in place IMO. This is why I think, while a year of transition is acceptable, there is no reason a lull should go on and on. We are in good shape. People just need to get used to the change and we can get back to winning ways Im sure. Or at least being strong contenders: as you say, our rivals are much stronger and we have no god given right to win things.

Foundations have still to be built upon Simon, which was really my point. Bayern don't have foundations, they have already done all the rebuilding, and can now sit back and reap the rewards of their labour.

We are not there yet. We have some potentially good players, but many were still struggling to establish themselves under SAF, so under Moyes that is still a work in progress. Reasonable shape is not great shape, and great shape is where we need to be to seriously challenge the elite teams. That's all i am saying, and hopefully people will appreciate that.

 

[Adebesi]

Foundations have still to be built upon Simon, which was really my point. Bayern don't have foundations, they have already done all the rebuilding, and can now sit back and reap the rewards of their labour.

We are not there yet. We have some potentially good players, but many were still struggling to establish themselves under SAF, so under Moyes that is still a work in progress. Reasonable shape is not great shape, and great shape is where we need to be to seriously challenge the elite teams. That's all i am saying, and hopefully people will appreciate that.

Yes, there is still work to be done.

Like a building site where the builders are starting to pack up their shit and go home, perhaps one or two things still to do but the major construction work done. Yet with no carpets, furnishings, running water or electricity, it is a long way from habitable.

That is a shit analogy but I cant be arsed to delete it.

 

[MJJ]

I havent lowered any expectations for the club, I just dont expect much from the first season or 2 after having one of the greatest managers ever running the place for 26 years. Its called realism. I still expect Utd to be fighting for the Champions league title and the EPL but just not for another season or 2. As it is the team will be doing its best this season but considering what a monumental change over is taking place its realistic to expect us to try but unrealistic to expect us to win them. As far as im concerned within the context of the changes any trophy we might win this year for me would be an unexpected bonus.

Then we should have signed someone who would handle the transition better.SAF was a great manager but he did have some peers who have the same quality as him. We signed moyes believing he could take over from SAF not turn us into a slightly superior version of spurs. Yes there will be a transition period but I would expect us to either challenge for the title or atleast be a comfortable third, not get dragged into the race for fourth spot.

 

[Randall Flagg]

Then we should have signed someone who would handle the transition better.SAF was a great manager but he did have some peers who have the same quality as him. We signed moyes believing he could take over from SAF not turn us into a slightly superior version of spurs. Yes there will be a transition period but I would expect us to either challenge for the title or atleast be a comfortable third, not get dragged into the race for fourth spot.

Who would you have liked instead that was available?

 

[MJJ]

I can see why everyone thinks this is a great post, you make some good points. But there is a difference between a new manager coming in at Madrid, Bayern, City or Barca, where managers change relatively frequently, and the situation with us, where a 27 year era came to an end. Everything has a flip side: we enjoyed stability for a long period which was a great advantage to us, something few can deny given the importance we attach to replicating it under a new manager. But the downside of that stability was it was a crutch, and its removal is commensurately destabilising.

That is what we are going through now, a period of transition while we deal with that instability, like a hangover or a comedown in a way. We havent dropped to Spurs' level overnight, but we are probably looking at similar targets this season. And there is no shame in that, Spurs are arguably an up and coming side (I say arguably because they are always up and coming, but they never actually arrive) while we are a team that has been at the top for so long the only way is down. Progress is never a straight line, it oscillates, and there is every chance that while Spurs are on an upswing, and we are on a downswing, our paths will touch or even cross. Shit happens.

This will be a fecking hard season, if we are lucky Moyes will find his feet quickly and we can do better than some of us fear, if we are not we may well underachieve massively this season, either way it doesnt necessarily mean we are turning into Liverpool - but it would be naive or even reckless not to acknowledge that is the risk we face, we need to be on guard against it.

Thats an excuse though, we knew for ages that Sir Alex would retire one day. He almost did in early 2000s and again the season before last only to be leave it for one more season. We should have definitely have a contigency plan in place, much like those clubs. The playing staff is still the same, the backroom staff is made up entirely of moyes' choice. Now its up to him to deliver, otherwise he is not the right manager for us. If we sign a player for 30 odd million pound, we would expect him to be first choice and deliver, not constantly make excuses for him and the same should apply to moyes. He is the guy that SAF chose so he should be good enough to either maintain the level which we were on or improve us.

And there is no way we and spurs have similar target this year, if we do the board needs to be fired and moyes needs his head checked.

 

[MJJ]

Great post MJJ. It's strange to see how people who are defending Moyes are the same ones who are perfectly fine with us finishing fourth (or in one extreme case, getting relegated) which makes me think thay deep down they don't trust that Moyes is the right manager at all. If they're fine with Moyes finishing outside of top 4 (or think that it's a big achieveent finishing in fourth place) then really they have very low expectations from Moyes and their support is based on what 'theoretically' is good to do (support the manager) but not on logic. Hopefully our board (and more importantly Glazers) see things differently then 'if you give the manager 6 years, he'll turn out to be good'.

Edit: from the phone, so sorry about the typing mistakes.

My point exactly.

 

[MJJ]

Who would you have liked instead that was available?

It doesnt matter who I would have liked but whoever we had signed I would have expected him to keep the team challenging for honors, not to settle for fourth for a few seasons. Then see how things move on from there.

 

[Stack]

It doesnt matter who I would have liked but whoever we had signed I would have expected him to keep the team challenging for honors, not to settle for fourth for a few seasons. Then see how things move on from there.

nice sidestep.....

 

[Adebesi]

Thats an excuse though, we knew for ages that Sir Alex would retire one day. He almost did in early 2000s and again the season before last only to be leave it for one more season. We should have definitely have a contigency plan in place, much like those clubs. The playing staff is still the same, the backroom staff is made up entirely of moyes' choice. Now its up to him to deliver, otherwise he is not the right manager for us. If we sign a player for 30 odd million pound, we would expect him to be first choice and deliver, not constantly make excuses for him and the same should apply to moyes. He is the guy that SAF chose so he should be good enough to either maintain the level which we were on or improve us.

And there is no way we and spurs have similar target this year, if we do the board needs to be fired and moyes needs his head checked.

Well, technically we have the same target - winning the league. Im sure Spurs would at least pay lip service to that.

To be honest I cant be arsed to debate this with you, there is nothing substantive to talk about, it is just a different mindset. Yes, it is an excuse. It is also reality. You can say "We are Man United, we should win the league" all you want, it doesnt really change anything. You are welcome to your indignation that this season will be a massive let down. It is no more or less valid than what you would probably characterise as my defeatism. The end result will be the same either way.

 

[MJJ]

It's all very chest pumping stuff MJJ, but you talkmin bottom lines and make no allowance for the extremely difficult start we have had, nor the improvement of other teams in the league in comparison to last year. It's always going to be harder to win it this year because the amount of serious challengers has increased. For the past 2 years it has been just us and City. City were wank last year, and we took advantage. Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs have all closed the gap on City and Utd this year, so finishing fourth is a far more realistic possibility for any of those clubs, including ourselves and City.

Bayern? WTF? Have Bayern just lost a manager who has been entrenched within their club for 30 years? Err, No.

Are they a team without a suitable midfield? Or an aging defence? Are they even in a league where they will be seriously challenged for the title? No, they are in a league where they can buy their closest rivals best players whenever they choose.

I am not trying to belittle Bayern, but they are a world class team in their peak. They have improved every area of their team dramatically over the past few years and are now pretty much a finished product. In contrast, we are a team who has not strengthened our midfield for years, and our tried and trusted CB pairing now has a combined age of 67! On top of that we do not have a settled system other than 4-4-2, which has proven to be insufficient in the CL in recent years, and in a lot of the biggest games at the business end of the season.

I am not saying we are shit before anyone starts, but it is my belief that SAF squeezed every last bit he could out of this team, (which is the same one that threw an 8 point lead away 2 seasons ago)improved it by signing RVP to regain the title, and then left the long overdue rebuilding job for Moyes. Rebuilding takes time im afraid, people demanding titles and CL success after losing both SAF and Gill are deluded in my view. This team needs revamping, we not only need new midfielders, but we now have to refashion our defence, while adjusting to a new manager.

Come on, we need some perspective here. Did anyone really expect us to be top after the fixtures we have had? He hasn't had a great start, and losing RVP for the City game didn't help. We should not be overjoyed with finishing fourth, but to be moaning already about what may or may not happen after half a dozen games is bizarre to me. We have some of our toughest fixtures already out of the way, and we will improve as the season goes on. Let's just wait and see what happens before going overboard.

I am talking about the end of the season, not right now. Am not for a moment suggesting he be sacked now but if we are aiming for fourth or get that by the end of the season then some serious questions need to be asked about his future at the club. Before we had sign a new manager to replace SAF, if I had told you our target will be fourth, I would get laughed at.

I can just imagine the reaction of this place if someone had said that the same squad that is destroying the PL, having finally signed a CM will be aiming for fourth. He would get laughed at and labelled a wum and rightly so. We had ample time to improve, you cant use the rest of the league has improved as an argument as again that lies with moyes. He should have improved the team during the transfer window, not wait till the season has already begun before moaning about it.

Bayern have just lost a coach who led them to a treble, who made a team which most were saying couldnt get any better but they invested heavily in a good coach and good players. Why did we not do something similar after winning the CL? Instead we were happy with what we had and went bargain shopping after selling ronaldo. The midfield is finally strengthened, we got who moyes wanted. In defense you have three of the best centreback prospects in england if moyes decides to play them which he is choosing not to. The system is entirely his choice, he can implement whatever he wants.

The fact that I am moaning is because am increasingly seeing posts here redefining what would be accepted as a good season by united this year.

 

[Theon]

The most damning thing that I can say about moyes reign so far has been the lowering of expectations. We are the champions of England, a team that has dominated the premier league since its inception and we should be aiming to win the CL not debating whether moyes will keep his job if we finish fourth or not.

Are we seriously going to consider it a good season if we scrape into the CL based on a qualifier? Thats on the same level as spurs who are nowhere near being title challengers. So changing managers has basically put both our clubs on a similar platform?

1 - A lot of that discussion is completely hypothetical, as has been said in the thread. I haven't seen many (or any) Moyes' supporters who actually think we will come 5th or 4th - its just a hypothetical discussion on what we would do should it happen.

2 - No, who said that? A good season would be winning the league or coming 2nd and putting up a strong challenge for the title. I don't think people who support Moyes think scraping 4th would be a great season, just that it shouldn't be a sackable offence which is completely different.

 

[Randall Flagg]

It doesnt matter who I would have liked but whoever we had signed I would have expected him to keep the team challenging for honors, not to settle for fourth for a few seasons. Then see how things move on from there.

I know its been a shit start, but you can hardly say we wont at least challenge for the league at this point

 

[MJJ]

nice sidestep.....

You want me to give him a list of managers I would have liked and then debate whether any of them were available or not? I dont have any idea whether managers like pep, ancelotti, mourinho, klopp would have considered joining us or not. I dont have any problems with moyes, if he gets the team performing. So its not a sidestep as even if we had sign one of those four, I would expect similar to what I expect from moyes.

 

[MJJ]

Well, technically we have the same target - winning the league. Im sure Spurs would at least pay lip service to that.

To be honest I cant be arsed to debate this with you, there is nothing substantive to talk about, it is just a different mindset. Yes, it is an excuse. It is also reality. You can say "We are Man United, we should win the league" all you want, it doesnt really change anything. You are welcome to your indignation that this season will be a massive let down. It is no more or less valid than what you would probably characterise as my defeatism. The end result will be the same either way.

Fair enough,oh but my point is we are man united, we should aim to win the league,cl.

Spurs top priority is to get CL football, anything on that is a bonus for them. And yes debate would be pointless as like you said its a different mindset.

 

[MJJ]

1 - A lot of that discussion is completely hypothetical, as has been said in the thread. I haven't seen many (or any) Moyes' supporters who actually think we will come 5th or 4th - its just a hypothetical discussion on what we would do should it happen.

2 - No, who said that? A good season would be winning the league or coming 2nd and putting up a strong challenge for the title. I don't think people who support Moyes think scraping 4th would be a great season, just that it shouldn't be a sackable offence which is completely different.

1-Am saying that we shouldnt be hypothetically accepting that then.
2-Pretty sure someone said they will be happy with fourth or it will be a good season if we get fourth in this thread but cant be bothered to look.

 

[MJJ]

I know its been a shit start, but you can hardly say we wont at least challenge for the league at this point

Am not saying that, am just getting annoyed at people who are accepting that we wont be challenging for the league as we have just changed our manager.

 

[buckooo1978]

It is so early in Moyes reign its silly to start drawing conclusions or assuming that we will be aiming for anything less than the champions spot

a win at the weekend and a couple after the break and we will find our consistency.....

I have faith in Moyes - he knows he has taken over a team with a winning mentality, we have had a very mixed start and we haven't helped ourselves with transfer dealings, press statements, team selections and player form.... you only need to listen to Carrick being interviewed and you can see the players just put the last performance behind them - win , lose or draw and try to win the next one

last season we were shipping goals very much like this year - The Southampton game sticks in my mind as a game we could have conceded 5/6 in but Van Persie's brilliance brought us through the game

right now we have Van Persie, Young, Valencia, Kagawa, Rio and others who obviously haven't been at their best but with top players the form will come

we'll be in the title race until the end

 

[Adebesi]

Its hard not to get drawn back in....

Theon articulated it best for me. I am not saying we wont challenge for the league (though I suspect we wont, we might).

My real point here is that if we dont there are mitigating circumstances and people shouldnt write Moyes off for it. We shouldnt be aiming for 4th, but neither should be be excessively downhearted or surprised if it happens.

 

[Theon]

1-Am saying that we shouldnt be hypothetically accepting that then.
2-Pretty sure someone said they will be happy with fourth or it will be a good season if we get fourth in this thread but cant be bothered to look.

1 - Well that changes your whole post doesn't it? It's not this gross lowering of expectations if nobody expects us to come 5th.

The discussion is over whether we should sack Moyes should that happen, not that people actually expect the situation to arise. Basically, whether we should give him time to put his stamp on the team or dismiss him quickly should things unravel. The supporters of Moyes are saying that we should go for the former, and have some patience.

2 - Ah right, one lad said it who you can't remember now. Gotcha

 

[MJJ]

1 - Well that changes your whole post doesn't it? It's not this gross lowering of expectations if nobody expects us to come 5th.

The discussion is over whether we should sack Moyes should that happen, not that people actually expect the situation to arise. Basically, whether we should give him time to put his stamp on the team or dismiss him quickly should things unravel. The supporters of Moyes are saying that we should go for the former, and have some patience.

2 - Ah right, one lad said it who you can't remember now. Gotcha

1. Read this thread and see how many are advocating not sacking him if we finish fourth, how we shouldnt accept that united to be at the same level, how we dont have a good enough squad anymore, how moyes needed more time in the transfer market, the hard fixture list we got. All of them are just a bunch of excuses being used which are lowering the expectations we should have from this side.

Why are we not having discussion of whether we should sack him or not if we finish in the lower half of the table? because no one expects him to do that while most are considering the possibility of us finishing fourth.

2. Read this thread if you want to and its more than one. I cant be bothered to do all that just to prove something over the internet.

 

[Revan]

1 - Well that changes your whole post doesn't it? It's not this gross lowering of expectations if nobody expects us to come 5th.

The discussion is over whether we should sack Moyes should that happen, not that people actually expect the situation to arise. Basically, whether we should give him time to put his stamp on the team or dismiss him quickly should things unravel. The supporters of Moyes are saying that we should go for the former, and have some patience.

2 - Ah right, one lad said it who you can't remember now. Gotcha

To be fair, one guy said that we should stick with Moyes even in case we get relegated. A lot are saying that a fifth (or lower) place shouldn't be a sackable offense, cause he needs time, our team is shit, last year the league was shit but now Ozil, Lamela, Soldado and Eriksen (without Bale) have made the league more competitive than ever and we also played poorly under SAF. Which are total ridiculous excuses. Ridiculous excuses. It's acceptable that Moyes won't win the league in his first season (cause let's not joke ourselves despite having one of the two best teams in EPL, he isn't and won't ever be as good as Mourinho, Pep etc to have succes immediately) but finishing outside of top 4 is something that I doubt even Woy fecking Hodgson could have achieved with this team. If he isn't good enough to finish in top 4, he won't ever be good enough to win an important trophy. If that's the case, giving him more time would result with us needing more time to get back in top after we inevitably part our ways.

 

[Theon]

1. Read this thread and see how many are advocating not sacking him if we finish fourth, how we shouldnt accept that united to be at the same level, how we dont have a good enough squad anymore, how moyes needed more time in the transfer market, the hard fixture list we got. All of them are just a bunch of excuses being used which are lowering the expectations we should have from this side.

Why are we not having discussion of whether we should sack him or not if we finish in the lower half of the table? because no one expects him to do that while most are considering the possibility of us finishing fourth.

2. Read this thread if you want to and its more than one. I cant be bothered to do all that just to prove something over the internet.

1) The second part of that section is the most retarded thing I've ever seen.

Coming 5th is an extreme example of Moyes' reign going tits up, we don't need to speculate any further from that because it doesn't add anything. Coming 5th is extreme enough and articulates the basic idea of the discussion which is 'What should we do if United have a shit season?'.

On the first part, yeahh no shit. But as I said to you before, having a view that Moyes shouldn't be sacked for coming 5th is not the same as a) expecting us to come 5th, or b) thinking it would be a good season. You have said that it is, for both those things.

I don't think he should be sacked unless he shows signs of real incompetence, otherwise he should be given time to put his mark on the team and turn it around. He was my preferred candidate before the summer and the fact he was chosen by Ferguson has only strengthened my belief that he is the right man for the job.

2) I'm not going to pour through the thread to try and back up a point that you made. I've called bullshit on that one, there might be one or two who think 4th would be a great season but in general you're talking shit there.

 

[Theon]

To be fair, one guy said that we should stick with Moyes even in case we get relegated.

Aye, but did he say that would be a good season?

His point is that we should give Moyes time even if he has a bad season, that isn't the same thing as saying that a bad season is actually good. He knows it would be a poor season, but will stick with Moyes regardless.

MJJ is saying that people who want to give Moyes time have completely changed their expectations and now believe 4th is a great result. In general no one thinks that, we just don't want him sacked after his first year if things go wrong.

 

[Sarni]

I don't buy into the whole 'give him time and he'll turn out good' thing to be fair. The sooner we accept the Ferguson era is over the better, we may not have another manager who'll be successful here for a long period of time for a good while and we may go through a period of changing managers every now and again in order to remain competitive, there's nothing wrong with that and there's no need to pretend we are above every other club on the planet and are too dignified to accept our mistakes.

When you look at other big clubs who have been successful over the last few years - Bayern, Barcelona, Juventus - they had to go through a managerial change in order to get where they are. If Bayern had kept Klinsmann or even van Gaal I doubt they'd be the team they are now, if Barcelona had kept Rijkaard they'd probably be struggling to get into top 3 by now. You need to change things and seek the right way constantly to stay on top, if you struggle to realise what you're doing wrong you might find yourself in a difficult position a few years down the line. The way from the top to the middle isn't really that long - Milan were the best side in Europe in mid 2000s and they're nowhere near right now because the whole rebuilding process went wrong. Liverpool were a top European side between 2005 and 2009 and are now struggling to get into EL. In a dynamic environment you could go from the best in the league to a mid-table side that cannot compete with the best in no time and we need to make sure it doesn't happen at United.

We had an amazing luck to have one of the best managers in the history here for 26 years. He was capable of rebuilding the side over and over, getting the best out of most players and had us competitive in the league and Europe for two decades, a feat unmatched by any other manager, possibly ever. It might not happen again, he was one of a kind and put his stamp on the club enormously, we cannot look at our next manager in the same way and measure him by the same benchmarks. Given the same amount of time 90% of managers would struggle and those 10% could be like Ferguson - we cannot just assume that whoever we employ after Sir Alex, in this case Moyes, belongs to the vast minority that is capable of providing success over a long period of time. The only manager in football right how who I'm sure is capable of it is Klopp.

Obviously Moyes cannot be properly judged after two months but if he cannot improve from current performances in half a year or a year then the indication would be that he might not be up for this job. He could turn out better after a certain amount of time but there's no guarantee that he would, in fact chances are that if he struggled to get a title-winning side into CL and his only signing who cost £27.5m would turn out to be a failure then he'd find it difficult to turn things around long term. If he had a proven record of bulding successful teams then it might make sense to stick with him for a while but he hasn't. It takes time to learn your way around managing a big club but ultimately it's a short term transition that matters most in our current position. If the transition post SAF goes wrong it'll be mightily difficult for us to get back to the top.

 

[Revan]

Aye, but did he say that would be a good season?

His point is that we should give Moyes time even if he has a bad season, that isn't the same thing as saying that a bad season is actually good. He knows it would be a poor season, but will stick with Moyes regardless.

MJJ is saying that people who want to give Moyes time have completely changed their expectations and now believe 4th is a great result. In general no one thinks that, we just don't want him sacked after his first year if things go wrong.

Where is the logic with this? If we get relegated (almost impossible) he should get his head checked and spend the rest of his life in a sanatorium, not continue doing 'the good work'.

If he can't get the fourth place, I think that not he will get sacked, but also the board members who gave him the job will be in deep trouble from Glazers. Not finishing in top four with the team who easily won the league last season, and having a net spent of 30m pounds is a catastrope of the biggest scale. No other way to lie ourselves that he then might turn out to be good.

Of course like all other United supporters, I hope that this won't be the case, but if it happens, the sooner we realize and act, the better for us. Give three years to a wrong manager (which we still don't know if this is the case, but first signs are extremely bad) and you'll spent five years trying to recuperate from that.

 

[Randall Flagg]

Its nothing about being above other clubs or too dignified for me.

I just don't want my club to be a club that chops and changes managers every 2 years.

I would hate to be a Chelsea fan for instance (Well many more reasons than just managerial changes for that)

In saying that I will go along with the idea that Moyes should be sacked if we fail to finish top 4.

 

[Sarni]

Where is the logic with this? If we get relegated (almost impossible) he should get his head checked and spend the rest of his life in a sanatorium, not continue doing 'the good work'.

If he can't get the fourth place, I think that not he will get sacked, but also the board members who gave him the job will be in deep trouble from Glazers. Not finishing in top four with the team who easily won the league last season, and having a net spent of 30m pounds is a catastrope of the biggest scale. No other way to lie ourselves that he then might turn out to be good.

Of course like all other United supporters, I hope that this won't be the case, but if it happens, the sooner we realize and act, the better for us. Give three years to a wrong manager (which we still don't know if this is the case, but first signs are extremely bad) and you'll spent five years trying to recuperate from that.

For how I see it the only way for him to prove that he is capable of managing a team like United is actually doing well here. The logic says that if he doesn't do well here, he's not suited for this job.

 

[apotheosis]

Aye, but did he say that would be a good season?

His point is that we should give Moyes time even if he has a bad season, that isn't the same thing as saying that a bad season is actually good. He knows it would be a poor season, but will stick with Moyes regardless.

MJJ is saying that people who want to give Moyes time have completely changed their expectations and now believe 4th is a great result. In general no one thinks that, we just don't want him sacked after his first year if things go wrong.

Well put Theon, and i agree with you completely.

 

[Sarni]

Its nothing about being above other clubs or too dignified for me.

I just don't want my club to be a club that chops and changes managers every 2 years.

I would hate to be a Chelsea fan for instance (Well many more reasons than just managerial changes for that)

In saying that I will go along with the Moyes should be sacked if we fail to finish top 4.

Why? Pretty much all top clubs have to do it for different reasons. Sometimes you'll get a manager like Guardiola who's capable of doing an excellent job long term but will wear out after a while and you'll have to replace him (he'll have left you great foundations though), sometimes you'll get a manager like Mourinho who albeit being mostly successful is a traveller and will like to test his ability somewhere else, sometimes you'll get someone like Rijkaard who is capable of providing success short term but is ultimately incapable of sustaining it over a longer period and on a few occasions you'll stumble across a manager like Scolari who's completely incapable of managing a big club.

It's extremely rare that you get a truly world class manager who can stick around for more than half a decade let alone two and a half.

 

[Revan]

Its nothing about being above other clubs or too dignified for me.

I just don't want my club to be a club that chops and changes managers every 2 years.

I would hate to be a Chelsea fan for instance (Well many more reasons than just managerial changes for that)

In saying that I will go along with the idea that Moyes should be sacked if we fail to finish top 4.

Me too. If Moyes finishes second and we make a decent challenge for the title, it would be stupid to sack him (like Chelsea did with Ancelotti, Mourinho etc). If he wins the league but fails in Champions it would be retarded to sack him (Madrid with Del Bosque). But if he can't finish even in top 4, then it would be insane to stick with him (Liverpool with Graeme Souness).

For how I see it the only way for him to prove that he is capable of managing a team like United is actually doing well here. The logic says that if he doesn't do well here, he's not suited for this job.

Agree. A recommendation from SAF to a fellow Glasgowian won't do him good IMO if he can't get even the fourth place, which to be fair is a massive underachievement itself (the fourth place).

 

[Adebesi]

I don't buy into the whole 'give him time and he'll turn out good' thing to be fair. The sooner we accept the Ferguson era is over the better, we may not have another manager who'll be successful here for a long period of time for a good while and we may go through a period of changing managers every now and again in order to remain competitive, there's nothing wrong with that and there's no need to pretend we are above every other club on the planet and are too dignified to accept our mistakes.

When you look at other big clubs who have been successful over the last few years - Bayern, Barcelona, Juventus - they had to go through a managerial change in order to get where they are. If Bayern had kept Klinsmann or even van Gaal I doubt they'd be the team they are now, if Barcelona had kept Rijkaard they'd probably be struggling to get into top 3 by now. You need to change things and seek the right way constantly to stay on top, if you struggle to realise what you're doing wrong you might find yourself in a difficult position a few years down the line. The way from the top to the middle isn't really that long - Milan were the best side in Europe in mid 2000s and they're nowhere near right now because the whole rebuilding process went wrong. Liverpool were a top European side between 2005 and 2009 and are now struggling to get into EL. In a dynamic environment you could go from the best in the league to a mid-table side that cannot compete with the best in no time and we need to make sure it doesn't happen at United.

We had an amazing luck to have one of the best managers in the history here for 26 years. He was capable of rebuilding the side over and over, getting the best out of most players and had us competitive in the league and Europe for two decades, a feat unmatched by any other manager, possibly ever. It might not happen again, he was one of a kind and put his stamp on the club enormously, we cannot look at our next manager in the same way and measure him by the same benchmarks. Given the same amount of time 90% of managers would struggle and those 10% could be like Ferguson - we cannot just assume that whoever we employ after Sir Alex, in this case Moyes, belongs to the vast minority that is capable of providing success over a long period of time. The only manager in football right how who I'm sure is capable of it is Klopp.


Obviously Moyes cannot be properly judged after two months but if he cannot improve from current performances in half a year or a year then the indication would be that he might not be up for this job. He could turn out better after a certain amount of time but there's no guarantee that he would, in fact chances are that if he struggled to get a title-winning side into CL and his only signing who cost £27.5m would turn out to be a failure then he'd find it difficult to turn things around long term. If he had a proven record of bulding successful teams then it might make sense to stick with him for a while but he hasn't. It takes time to learn your way around managing a big club but ultimately it's a short term transition that matters most in our current position. If the transition post SAF goes wrong it'll be mightily difficult for us to get back to the top.

I get that Sarni, we shouldnt be dogmatic with Moyes and give him 26 years come what may just because we want "stability". But is one season enough to really show what he is capable of? Isnt there a risk if he is sacked (for coming 4th or 5th for example) that we will have gone through all the pain but missed out on the payoff, just when he is starting to find his feet? It is more art than science but the question is at what point do you say, we need change, and up to what point do you accept underachievement as a part of necessary transition? You cite examples of teams that change managers, pretty much every club would be in that category, but at the extreme end you have Chelsea and Real, few of us have the stomach to go down that road. Its tough to know where to draw the line.

I think for me I would give two full seasons before I would think about changing managers, unless things went really, really badly wrong. As I said, more art than science, you would have to weigh up the specific situation you were in, but I would be uncomfortable sacking the manager before that point, I think that is the minimum required before we can make a fair assessment. Even that is quite short, if you look back to the start of SAF's tenure to make a comparison, though obviously the circumstances the club itself is in, and the way football is generally, are very different now.

I say that as I sit here now, but it is all quite meaningless. If we did come 5th this season, and then by Christmas next season were 10th, Im sure I would feel different, I guess I covered myself with the get out clause "unless things went really, really badly wrong". In the cold light of day my main concern is that, in the pursuit of following Bayern, Barca or Juve, as you said, we end up instead emulating Chelsea or City. It isnt just that it reeks of a lack of class, I honestly think it is counterproductive, and that a manager needs time to get a team playing the way he wants to.

 

[Revan]

I say that as I sit here now, but it is all quite meaningless. If we did come 5th this season, and then by Christmas next season were 10th, Im sure I would feel different, I guess I covered myself with the get out clause "unless things went really, really badly wrong". In the cold light of day my main concern is that, in the pursuit of following Bayern, Barca or Juve, as you said, we end up instead emulating Chelsea or City. It isnt just that it reeks of a lack of class, I honestly think it is counterproductive, and that a manager needs time to get a team playing the way he wants to.

If we sack him after he finishes second, or we sack him if he can't protect the title after he wins it, that would be emulating City/Chelsea. Which I think no-one here has ever said that it what we need to do.

About your last point. What if the way he wants the team to play for, is a better version of Everton (percentage football, hoof the ball and defensive tactics)?That is something we can observe for far less than 2-3 years.

 

[Theon]

Where is the logic with this? If we get relegated (almost impossible) he should get his head checked and spend the rest of his life in a sanatorium, not continue doing 'the good work'.

fecking hell, he was clearly exaggerating to make a point.

If you think that there are many United fans who would stick with Moyes if he got this United side relegated then its you who needs their head checked. Stop being so dense.

Many would stick with if we came 4th/5th though, but that might not be ridiculous. For me personally it would depend on the manner of the season and whether it looks like something he can turn around.. Were there any positives? Were there mitigating circumstances? Yada yada. A stringent rule which says if Moyes comes 5th he gets sacked isn't a good one.

 

[Nighteyes]

fecking hell, he was clearly exaggerating to make a point.

If you think that there are many United fans who would stick with Moyes if he got this United side relegated then its you who needs their head checked. Stop being so dense.

Many would stick with if we came 4th/5th though, but that might not be ridiculous. For me personally it would depend on the manner of the season and whether it looks like something he can turn around.. Were there any positives? Were there mitigating circumstances? Yada yada. A stringent rule which says if Moyes comes 5th he gets sacked isn't a good one.

Agreed.

If we finish 5th while continuing to play the rubbish football we are now then he should go. But if there are signs of improvement and him making his mark on the team then he should be given another season at least

 

[Revan]

fecking hell, he was clearly exaggerating to make a point.

If you think that there are many United fans who would stick with Moyes if he got this United side relegated then its you who needs their head checked. Stop being so dense.

No, he wasn't. I made that point and asked him (after he said that we should give time to Moyes no matter what) and he said that he would have sticked with him and mentioned that many people wanted to get rid of the manager who guided us to second division, but we let him in the job and ultimetally he brought us again to First Division playing some exciting football.

 

[adexkola]

Manchester United are not entitled to a trophy every season. If the squad we have isn't "refurbished" to a sufficient degree, no manager is winning anything with it.

I'd give Moyes 2 seasons, and if we are moving in the right direction, I'd advocate we keep him.