It's more of the fact that we weren't as cautious at the back and were more exciting to watch because we went forward all the time. I was still really young back then but from memory, we are much more clinical these days then back then.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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The only doubt about his ability is by our short term vision, and equating a few games he has been in charge with our unprecedented success under Sir Alex. If I remember correctly he has been voted by his peers 'Premiership manager' of the year three times. This with the likes of Sir Alex, Wenger, and Mourinho as competition.
Since when do prizes prove anything in football? Moyes hasn't managed at this level before and hasn't won anything, so of course there are doubts over his ability. You might not agree with those doubts but pretending they don't exist is mad. Early results have focused those doubts, sure, but they were there since Moyes was appointed and they'll remain until he wins a major trophy.
Not many managers exist in the world who have managed at this level. Even players coming to United have never played at this level, and are not used to winning, or won a trophy prior to their move.
I see what you did there.
Ha, you know what I meant. There's a big difference between being awarded with a pat on the back through a glorified popularity concert and actually winning a PL or CL title.
Yep, there are very few managers who have proven themselves at this level, it's a difficult thing to do. That's why there'd be doubts over any manager who takes over at a top club without any experience of winning trophies or even any real experience in the CL. I'm not saying you shouldn't hire a manager because of that, just that it's very natural and logical to have doubts.
Only Sir Alex, Kenny Dalglish (Blackburn) Mourinho, Wenger and Mancini have actually won the Premiership.
Take your pick.
Moyes' issue is not that he hasn't won a trophy. He was at a club whose potential was a cup competition, at best. You might say he slightly underachieved in that regard, but it's hardly a big deal.
I'd be more worried with his record of safety first coaching, a terrible record in big games/derbies, and a general air of tedium.
I'd be more worried with his record of safety first coaching, a terrible record in big games/derbies, and a general air of tedium.
Don't you think it's somewhat silly to have doubts a few games into his tenure?
Ancelloti as well...or whoever was Chelsea manager at that point. They fire them so often I genuinely don't know.
How many times has Moyes won manager of the year?
I'm guessing never, what with him being so poor tactically and that.
I'm guessing never, what with him being so poor tactically and that.
Without having exact figures to prove myself, I'd be confident in predicting no manager working at clubs below the top 4 will have a good record against top teams.
Yes, forgot him.
Ancelotti.
Making any judgements this early in his tenure is stupid, I don't think he's had enough time to prove anything one way or the other. Having doubts is fine as long as you're open to being proven wrong and give him time to do so. That's especially the case if those doubts were there before he ever got hired.
I can't agree with this. It was an individual award that goes many times to midtable managers (didn't Hodgson won it too?) that frankly speaking doesn't mean that much. He hasn't been proven in top level before, his tactics not that it weren't anything inovative but were a bit negative (unlike Rodgers, Laudrup, Pochetino, Martinez etc, not saying that they are better managers than him cause they haven't proven that they are, but they played some wonderful football, something that Everton rarely did, and I really doubt that percentage football is the way to go in top level), he hasn't won a trophy (to be fair for me this isn't a strong argument to be made against him, but still there were teams with less resources that won a cup), his record away from home to big 4 is the worst in the league etc etc. He has on the other side a lot of good things like being able to regenerate the team and overachieving with average players but still saying that there isn't a doubt about him in top level is a bit over the top.
He isn't tactically poor (or even near it) but against big 4 he has the worst record (away) in the league. 50 games without winning a single one is really a black point.
Add in Wengers comment about him when he got Everton to the Champions league qualifiers.
Christ, are we really resorting to 'manager of the year' awards to defend Moyes.
Yeah, let's not defend him at all.
The most damning thing that I can say about moyes reign so far has been the lowering of expectations. We are the champions of England, a team that has dominated the premier league since its inception and we should be aiming to win the CL not debating whether moyes will keep his job if we finish fourth or not. Are we seriously going to consider it a good season if we scrape into the CL based on a qualifier? Thats on the same level as spurs who are nowhere near being title challengers. So changing managers has basically put both our clubs on a similar platform?
Thats bullshit plain and simple. Look at bayern, are they thinking of qualifying for the Cl or winning it? Or even barca,real or city after they have changed their managers? Anyone of those teams finishes fourth the manager would be sacked as the club expects more, the fan expects more. But for some weird reason most of the Caf thinks it perfectly alright for a team like ours to finish fourth in a new season.
The excuses of moyes are getting more and more baffling. He started too late, one of the first things that was said about him when we hired him was that he is a workaholic who has already started to know the team,players,etc but apparently lose a few games and that changes everything. He also seemingly doesnt know most of our players or follow any kind of football coverage despite managing in the same league which was suppose to be another plus point of his.
This team destroyed the PL last year and any criticisms like the league is too weak were scoffed at but now apparently we are a team that should be happy finishing fourth and being disappointed at that is equal to being a spoil sport. Baffling.
Thats bullshit plain and simple. Look at bayern, are they thinking of qualifying for the Cl or winning it? Or even barca,real or city after they have changed their managers? Anyone of those teams finishes fourth the manager would be sacked as the club expects more, the fan expects more. But for some weird reason most of the Caf thinks it perfectly alright for a team like ours to finish fourth in a new season.
The excuses of moyes are getting more and more baffling. He started too late, one of the first things that was said about him when we hired him was that he is a workaholic who has already started to know the team,players,etc but apparently lose a few games and that changes everything. He also seemingly doesnt know most of our players or follow any kind of football coverage despite managing in the same league which was suppose to be another plus point of his.
This team destroyed the PL last year and any criticisms like the league is too weak were scoffed at but now apparently we are a team that should be happy finishing fourth and being disappointed at that is equal to being a spoil sport. Baffling.
The fact people feel the need to defend him at all after so few games is baffling.
I didn't for a second think we could win the CL last year and that hasn't changed this year.
We were nearly in the semi-finals so we did had a good chance of winning it. We werent arguing amongst ourselves whether we would qualify for the competition or not atleast.
Defending him is great, that's just a terrible way of doing it. Surely there's more you could point to from his time at Everton than a bullshit award? I'd doubt it even means that much to Moyes, it's a nonsense popularity vote. Might as well sign Scottie Parker as he won some awards too, didn't he?
Yes, we could have. It was a possibility.
Was it going to happen? No. We're are not currently in the same category as Bayren, Barca and Madrid
The most damning thing that I can say about moyes reign so far has been the lowering of expectations. We are the champions of England, a team that has dominated the premier league since its inception and we should be aiming to win the CL not debating whether moyes will keep his job if we finish fourth or not. Are we seriously going to consider it a good season if we scrape into the CL based on a qualifier? Thats on the same level as spurs who are nowhere near being title challengers. So changing managers has basically put both our clubs on a similar platform?
Thats bullshit plain and simple. Look at bayern, are they thinking of qualifying for the Cl or winning it? Or even barca,real or city after they have changed their managers? Anyone of those teams finishes fourth the manager would be sacked as the club expects more, the fan expects more. But for some weird reason most of the Caf thinks it perfectly alright for a team like ours to finish fourth in a new season.
The excuses of moyes are getting more and more baffling. He started too late, one of the first things that was said about him when we hired him was that he is a workaholic who has already started to know the team,players,etc but apparently lose a few games and that changes everything. He also seemingly doesnt know most of our players or follow any kind of football coverage despite managing in the same league which was suppose to be another plus point of his.
This team destroyed the PL last year and any criticisms like the league is too weak were scoffed at but now apparently we are a team that should be happy finishing fourth and being disappointed at that is equal to being a spoil sport. Baffling.
Agreed with all this. We were winning 12 pts on top of the 2nd place last season. And it could be more if we could be bothered. And top club like ours shouldn't lower the expectation just because changing manager. We keep all our best players and squads, and adding a 27m player to that.
The most damning thing that I can say about moyes reign so far has been the lowering of expectations. We are the champions of England, a team that has dominated the premier league since its inception and we should be aiming to win the CL not debating whether moyes will keep his job if we finish fourth or not. Are we seriously going to consider it a good season if we scrape into the CL based on a qualifier? Thats on the same level as spurs who are nowhere near being title challengers. So changing managers has basically put both our clubs on a similar platform?
Thats bullshit plain and simple. Look at bayern, are they thinking of qualifying for the Cl or winning it? Or even barca,real or city after they have changed their managers? Anyone of those teams finishes fourth the manager would be sacked as the club expects more, the fan expects more. But for some weird reason most of the Caf thinks it perfectly alright for a team like ours to finish fourth in a new season.
The excuses of moyes are getting more and more baffling. He started too late, one of the first things that was said about him when we hired him was that he is a workaholic who has already started to know the team,players,etc but apparently lose a few games and that changes everything. He also seemingly doesnt know most of our players or follow any kind of football coverage despite managing in the same league which was suppose to be another plus point of his.
This team destroyed the PL last year and any criticisms like the league is too weak were scoffed at but now apparently we are a team that should be happy finishing fourth and being disappointed at that is equal to being a spoil sport. Baffling.
Your right the lowering of expectations is depressing. However, there is such a drop off from Fergie to Moyes that it is hard to not to have any other feelings. We needed to add to squad in the summer to keep up with our rivals and we didn't. I am afraid that by the end of season a lot of us will be happy to see United finish fourth. Although I do hope I am wrong.
One gets the impression the lowering of expectations seems related to people being more interested in the clubs ethos or identity (as they perceive it) than continuing its winning ways. Once you get addicted to winning, its really fecking depressing to hear people talk about our prospects of barely making a CL spot, playing youngsters as a means to give them experience in lieu of a probably calamitous year, and perpetually moving the goal posts on how long it will take Moyes to settle in and make the club his own.
I havent lowered any expectations for the club, I just dont expect much from the first season or 2 after having one of the greatest managers ever running the place for 26 years. Its called realism. I still expect Utd to be fighting for the Champions league title and the EPL but just not for another season or 2. As it is the team will be doing its best this season but considering what a monumental change over is taking place its realistic to expect us to try but unrealistic to expect us to win them. As far as im concerned within the context of the changes any trophy we might win this year for me would be an unexpected bonus.
Fellaini may have had some success in the EPL however as you said United is a juggernaut. He may have made a name in Everton by heading the ball down but that wont cut it at OT.
The most damning thing that I can say about moyes reign so far has been the lowering of expectations. We are the champions of England, a team that has dominated the premier league since its inception and we should be aiming to win the CL not debating whether moyes will keep his job if we finish fourth or not. Are we seriously going to consider it a good season if we scrape into the CL based on a qualifier? Thats on the same level as spurs who are nowhere near being title challengers. So changing managers has basically put both our clubs on a similar platform?
Thats bullshit plain and simple. Look at bayern, are they thinking of qualifying for the Cl or winning it? Or even barca,real or city after they have changed their managers? Anyone of those teams finishes fourth the manager would be sacked as the club expects more, the fan expects more. But for some weird reason most of the Caf thinks it perfectly alright for a team like ours to finish fourth in a new season.
The excuses of moyes are getting more and more baffling. He started too late, one of the first things that was said about him when we hired him was that he is a workaholic who has already started to know the team,players,etc but apparently lose a few games and that changes everything. He also seemingly doesnt know most of our players or follow any kind of football coverage despite managing in the same league which was suppose to be another plus point of his.
This team destroyed the PL last year and any criticisms like the league is too weak were scoffed at but now apparently we are a team that should be happy finishing fourth and being disappointed at that is equal to being a spoil sport. Baffling.
Good post.
I agree completely.
Until the last month of last season Moyes was going for a 4th place spot with Everton. There's is no reason that at this club, with our vastly superior squad, we should ever be lowering our expectations so much that 4th place would be considered good.
The most damning thing that I can say about moyes reign so far has been the lowering of expectations. We are the champions of England, a team that has dominated the premier league since its inception and we should be aiming to win the CL not debating whether moyes will keep his job if we finish fourth or not. Are we seriously going to consider it a good season if we scrape into the CL based on a qualifier? Thats on the same level as spurs who are nowhere near being title challengers. So changing managers has basically put both our clubs on a similar platform?
Thats bullshit plain and simple. Look at bayern, are they thinking of qualifying for the Cl or winning it? Or even barca,real or city after they have changed their managers? Anyone of those teams finishes fourth the manager would be sacked as the club expects more, the fan expects more. But for some weird reason most of the Caf thinks it perfectly alright for a team like ours to finish fourth in a new season.
The excuses of moyes are getting more and more baffling. He started too late, one of the first things that was said about him when we hired him was that he is a workaholic who has already started to know the team,players,etc but apparently lose a few games and that changes everything. He also seemingly doesnt know most of our players or follow any kind of football coverage despite managing in the same league which was suppose to be another plus point of his.
This team destroyed the PL last year and any criticisms like the league is too weak were scoffed at but now apparently we are a team that should be happy finishing fourth and being disappointed at that is equal to being a spoil sport. Baffling.
Another thing that I don't like is that the way he's keeping safe so far in regards of team selections and tactics. That might be fine at Everton, but at United, he's gotta take more risk, push for a more expansive game. Hopefully 9 games into the season is enough for him to recognize his team and their strength.
It could have been even smarter. I maintain Shaktar were vulnerable at the back, and United did not do enough to exploit that. A win would have galvanised their morale, instead they trudged off with a slight air of disappointment. A big performance is required to gather some real momentum. Hopefully Moyes will take the shackles off against Sunderland as that is the chance to really get some rhythm back against a poor side who are also scratching for form.
The most damning thing that I can say about moyes reign so far has been the lowering of expectations. We are the champions of England, a team that has dominated the premier league since its inception and we should be aiming to win the CL not debating whether moyes will keep his job if we finish fourth or not. Are we seriously going to consider it a good season if we scrape into the CL based on a qualifier? Thats on the same level as spurs who are nowhere near being title challengers. So changing managers has basically put both our clubs on a similar platform?
Thats bullshit plain and simple. Look at bayern, are they thinking of qualifying for the Cl or winning it? Or even barca,real or city after they have changed their managers? Anyone of those teams finishes fourth the manager would be sacked as the club expects more, the fan expects more. But for some weird reason most of the Caf thinks it perfectly alright for a team like ours to finish fourth in a new season.
The excuses of moyes are getting more and more baffling. He started too late, one of the first things that was said about him when we hired him was that he is a workaholic who has already started to know the team,players,etc but apparently lose a few games and that changes everything. He also seemingly doesnt know most of our players or follow any kind of football coverage despite managing in the same league which was suppose to be another plus point of his.
This team destroyed the PL last year and any criticisms like the league is too weak were scoffed at but now apparently we are a team that should be happy finishing fourth and being disappointed at that is equal to being a spoil sport. Baffling.
Good post.
Giggs has just said it recently in an interview. Standards should not be dropped just becuase SAF is gone.
Great post MJJ. It's strange to see how people who are defending Moyes are the same ones who are perfectly fine with us finishing fourth (or in one extreme case, getting relegated) which makes me think thay deep down they don't trust that Moyes is the right manager at all. If they're fine with Moyes finishing outside of top 4 (or think that it's a big achieveent finishing in fourth place) then really they have very low expectations from Moyes and their support is based on what 'theoretically' is good to do (support the manager) but not on logic. Hopefully our board (and more importantly Glazers) see things differently then 'if you give the manager 6 years, he'll turn out to be good'.
Edit: from the phone, so sorry about the typing mistakes.
Edit: from the phone, so sorry about the typing mistakes.
The most damning thing that I can say about moyes reign so far has been the lowering of expectations. We are the champions of England, a team that has dominated the premier league since its inception and we should be aiming to win the CL not debating whether moyes will keep his job if we finish fourth or not. Are we seriously going to consider it a good season if we scrape into the CL based on a qualifier? Thats on the same level as spurs who are nowhere near being title challengers. So changing managers has basically put both our clubs on a similar platform?
Thats bullshit plain and simple. Look at bayern, are they thinking of qualifying for the Cl or winning it? Or even barca,real or city after they have changed their managers? Anyone of those teams finishes fourth the manager would be sacked as the club expects more, the fan expects more. But for some weird reason most of the Caf thinks it perfectly alright for a team like ours to finish fourth in a new season.
The excuses of moyes are getting more and more baffling. He started too late, one of the first things that was said about him when we hired him was that he is a workaholic who has already started to know the team,players,etc but apparently lose a few games and that changes everything. He also seemingly doesnt know most of our players or follow any kind of football coverage despite managing in the same league which was suppose to be another plus point of his.
This team destroyed the PL last year and any criticisms like the league is too weak were scoffed at but now apparently we are a team that should be happy finishing fourth and being disappointed at that is equal to being a spoil sport. Baffling.
I can see why everyone thinks this is a great post, you make some good points. But there is a difference between a new manager coming in at Madrid, Bayern, City or Barca, where managers change relatively frequently, and the situation with us, where a 27 year era came to an end. Everything has a flip side: we enjoyed stability for a long period which was a great advantage to us, something few can deny given the importance we attach to replicating it under a new manager. But the downside of that stability was it was a crutch, and its removal is commensurately destabilising.
That is what we are going through now, a period of transition while we deal with that instability, like a hangover or a comedown in a way. We havent dropped to Spurs' level overnight, but we are probably looking at similar targets this season. And there is no shame in that, Spurs are arguably an up and coming side (I say arguably because they are always up and coming, but they never actually arrive) while we are a team that has been at the top for so long the only way is down. Progress is never a straight line, it oscillates, and there is every chance that while Spurs are on an upswing, and we are on a downswing, our paths will touch or even cross. Shit happens.
This will be a fecking hard season, if we are lucky Moyes will find his feet quickly and we can do better than some of us fear, if we are not we may well underachieve massively this season, either way it doesnt necessarily mean we are turning into Liverpool - but it would be naive or even reckless not to acknowledge that is the risk we face, we need to be on guard against it.
This is quite an interesting observation. I hadnt really considered it this way but it applies to me. I wasnt enthusiastic about Moyes at all, I wasnt "anti" per se because I didnt have any other candidates in mind that I was really keen on, nobody inspired huge confidence particularly - or, at least, every manager had a downside. But even so, Moyes struck me as the wrong choice. I think arguably too much emphasis was placed on trying to recreate what we had, a "dour Scot" as the papers would say, prioritising loyalty and length of service at his previous employer over demonstrable experience at winning things. The way football is today I think someone with some experience of a bigger club - not a big club in the sense of history, which Everton obviously has, but big in the sense of dealing with expectation and pressure - would have been preferable.
There were various other people I would have preferred to see even if I wasnt mad about them either. Having said that, the choice having been made I feel we need to see it through. Which is kind of what you are getting at. I didnt feel Moyes was the right manager deep down, but given he is the manager I will back him and argue that he needs to be given time.
The most damning thing that I can say about moyes reign so far has been the lowering of expectations. We are the champions of England, a team that has dominated the premier league since its inception and we should be aiming to win the CL not debating whether moyes will keep his job if we finish fourth or not. Are we seriously going to consider it a good season if we scrape into the CL based on a qualifier? Thats on the same level as spurs who are nowhere near being title challengers. So changing managers has basically put both our clubs on a similar platform?
Thats bullshit plain and simple. Look at bayern, are they thinking of qualifying for the Cl or winning it? Or even barca,real or city after they have changed their managers? Anyone of those teams finishes fourth the manager would be sacked as the club expects more, the fan expects more. But for some weird reason most of the Caf thinks it perfectly alright for a team like ours to finish fourth in a new season.
The excuses of moyes are getting more and more baffling. He started too late, one of the first things that was said about him when we hired him was that he is a workaholic who has already started to know the team,players,etc but apparently lose a few games and that changes everything. He also seemingly doesnt know most of our players or follow any kind of football coverage despite managing in the same league which was suppose to be another plus point of his.
This team destroyed the PL last year and any criticisms like the league is too weak were scoffed at but now apparently we are a team that should be happy finishing fourth and being disappointed at that is equal to being a spoil sport. Baffling.
It's all very chest pumping stuff MJJ, but you talkmin bottom lines and make no allowance for the extremely difficult start we have had, nor the improvement of other teams in the league in comparison to last year. It's always going to be harder to win it this year because the amount of serious challengers has increased. For the past 2 years it has been just us and City. City were wank last year, and we took advantage. Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs have all closed the gap on City and Utd this year, so finishing fourth is a far more realistic possibility for any of those clubs, including ourselves and City.
Bayern? WTF? Have Bayern just lost a manager who has been entrenched within their club for 30 years? Err, No.
Are they a team without a suitable midfield? Or an aging defence? Are they even in a league where they will be seriously challenged for the title? No, they are in a league where they can buy their closest rivals best players whenever they choose.
I am not trying to belittle Bayern, but they are a world class team in their peak. They have improved every area of their team dramatically over the past few years and are now pretty much a finished product. In contrast, we are a team who has not strengthened our midfield for years, and our tried and trusted CB pairing now has a combined age of 67! On top of that we do not have a settled system other than 4-4-2, which has proven to be insufficient in the CL in recent years, and in a lot of the biggest games at the business end of the season.
I am not saying we are shit before anyone starts, but it is my belief that SAF squeezed every last bit he could out of this team, (which is the same one that threw an 8 point lead away 2 seasons ago)improved it by signing RVP to regain the title, and then left the long overdue rebuilding job for Moyes. Rebuilding takes time im afraid, people demanding titles and CL success after losing both SAF and Gill are deluded in my view. This team needs revamping, we not only need new midfielders, but we now have to refashion our defence, while adjusting to a new manager.
Come on, we need some perspective here. Did anyone really expect us to be top after the fixtures we have had? He hasn't had a great start, and losing RVP for the City game didn't help. We should not be overjoyed with finishing fourth, but to be moaning already about what may or may not happen after half a dozen games is bizarre to me. We have some of our toughest fixtures already out of the way, and we will improve as the season goes on. Let's just wait and see what happens before going overboard.
This is more or less where I am at - Moyes was a long way down my list of managers that I wanted to follow Fergie, but now that he is here we have to back him and give him a chance to succeed.
Still that wont stop me from criticising some of his early decisions, but it is early days and there is plenty of time for improvement.
Or maybe we just accept that he needs time to find his bearings. I'd say that any reasonably minded supporter knew that would be the case, along with Sir Alex, the club and David Moyes himself.
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