Moyes So Far!

[Mersault]

I find myself in the the odd position of not wanting to call for his head but at the same time not wanting him here, like when you stay in a relationship with someone because it's the right thing to do, despite it not being what you really want.

Ha. Like when you want out and you think, maybe I should at least give this a few years and see what happens...aye

Defo think he should be given a season, if he does terrible then it would be stupid to stick with him, if he looks like he has a plan within that time he should be given time

 

[gasmanc]

Where the feck is Pogue when you need him?

Kagawa thread.

 

[Brophs]

We've played as negatively under Fergie and it didn't mean he wasn't good enough for us. I can appreciate that people have concerns - and I probably share some of those - but too many people are simply deciding he isn't good enough, without taking into account that very few managers are good enough when they get their first big jobs; they usually have to become good enough through development, just as with younger players. Like it or not, we took him from Everton where he had a particular mindset. It takes time to either rid yourself of it, or at least alter it so that you can adapt to what's required of you.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

I think Neville put it the best when he said Moyes won't be going anywhere for a long time. So all we can do is stand by him. Time will tell, and he'll be given plenty of it.

Not to say I don't have concerns myself.

 

[sullydnl]

We've played as negatively under Fergie and it didn't mean he wasn't good enough for us. I can appreciate that people have concerns - and I probably share some of those - but too many people are simply deciding he isn't good enough, without taking into account that very few managers are good enough when they get their first big jobs; they usually have to become good enough through development, just as with younger players. Like it or not, we took him from Everton where he had a particular mindset. It takes time to either rid yourself of it, or at least alter it so that you can adapt to what's required of you.

This. This is the reason Moyes' lack of experience at this level was an issue for some of us when he was appointed, there was always going to be a steep learning curve. Once you decide Moyes is the right man for the job you have to accept that he's going to need time to adjust and grow into the role. It's exactly like signing a young talented player over a proven top level player. It's fair to expect him to get to or surpass that level but it's unfair to expect him to do it straight away.

 

[apotheosis]

It's getting unbearable on here and the mods need to come down on some of these tools. They're not even interested in supporting the team or even hoping they do well, they just want to find things to complain about.

While I agree with your sentiment, surely you couldn't expect them to endure sifting through this drivel? Mod censorship of 'tools' would prove an immeasurable task on here pocco!

 

[apotheosis]

Yeah you could be right about the subs, its never something I noticed at Everton (or ever really would notice).

Kouroux saying he's poor/stupid tactically is a load of bollocks though - he clearly thought very hard about this game and changed shape to go 4-5-1 and make us a more solid team. In the end despite playing poorly we could have nicked that against a tough side away from home. Moyes is well known for obsessing over and analysing tactics, criticising that part of his management is just plain ignorance really.

I am surprised so many seemed shocked by him being cautious. He has had some bad results, and the team has defended pretty poorly when we have lined up to attack, as we did against WBA. It makes perfect sense to go back to basics and make the team hard to beat first and foremost, especially away in Europe. I would have been more concerned had he not recognised that and allowed our shocking defensive displays to continue.

As it stands he has stopped the recent rot with a solid away performance against a good team. We have enough quality in attack to create some chances even when we set up so defensively, and once we improve in that area that will then give us more confidence in our attacking play. We all knew it would be tough for Moyes, I can't understand why so many are getting so frustrated that it is proving to be every bit as tough as we thought it would.

What do people expect? This is the same team who rarely produced free flowing football under SAF, yet all of a sudden they now expect it from Moyes? Tonight was a step in the right direction, a disciplined defensive performance right after a horror show. We showed the right attitude and I think the team will be feeling more confident after that result.

 

[Shimo]

It seems because Moyes is scared, it's translating to the team. Not only in selections but, the way we play. He had a chance to at least maybe play for the win after we got pegged back by perhaps throwing on Nani for a tiring Welbeck or even Valencia who was creating nothing and was giving up needless fouls in dangerous areas. Moyes is scared shitless right now and that's not a good thing. Maybe if he really is secure in his position then he can start taking the "risks" by playing with a bit more belief and let the team play the way they are capable of.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

It seems because Moyes is scared, it's translating to the team. Not only in selections but, the way we play. He had a chance to at least maybe play for the win after we got pegged back by perhaps throwing on Nani for a tiring Welbeck or even Valencia who was creating nothing and was giving up needless fouls in dangerous areas. Moyes is scared shitless right now and that's not a good thing. Maybe if he really is secure in his position then he can start taking the "risks" by playing with a bit more belief and let the team play the way they are capable of.

He played for the point. Against a very good team on the road. As he should have done.

 

[bosnian_red]

It seems because Moyes is scared, it's translating to the team. Not only in selections but, the way we play. He had a chance to at least maybe play for the win after we got pegged back by perhaps throwing on Nani for a tiring Welbeck or even Valencia who was creating nothing and was giving up needless fouls in dangerous areas. Moyes is scared shitless right now and that's not a good thing. Maybe if he really is secure in his position then he can start taking the "risks" by playing with a bit more belief and let the team play the way they are capable of.

I agree. If his job is safe, then it would definitely benefit the team in the long run, as well as maybe in the short term, to give more resposibility to our younger attacking players. Maybe give Januzaj more starts, give Kagawa more playing time and make Nani a key player. Sure it might take a while for them to click, but in all likelihood, they will give us some great attacking play. What benefit does playing Young give us? He's 28 years old, not very good, not very creative, doesn't get anyone excited on the ball, and doesn't really score many goals. Some might say it's playing it safe, because he works hard defensively, and it would be naive to go for it all the time playing a front four of Kagawa, Nani, Rooney and Van Persie, without putting more defensive players on the pitch. However, seeing as 'playing it safe' has resulted in us having 3 losses already in the league, as well as shit performances, I think we'd be better off simply going for it, and at least go down fighting. I think the vast majority of us fans as well would like to see some naivety for once maybe, and put out attacking lineups that will at least make for exciting games. Something like how we were in the 90's, where we had the you score 4, we'll score 5 attitude. Show us that the team is heading somewhere. We more then likely won't win anything this season apart from maybe one of the domestic cups either way, so what would be the harm in giving our more exciting attacking players a bigger role then the likes of Valencia and Young?

I know I'd personally be perfectly fine with us finishing 4th for this season, but playing exciting football and having Nani and Kagawa key players, with Januzaj being given plenty of opportunities as well, but not winning anything. Would probably rather that for this season then 'play it safe' and scrape a cup win somewhere, and just qualify for champions league again next year safely.

 

[Sky1981]

He'll never get that safety playing safe, it's those gung ho and throw the sink at teams that won us many things in the past.

And playing safe leads to safe results and percentage football that leads to mediocrity.

Percentage football is good and all, but it won't be enough if you want to win (or at least make it top 4)

 

[Baxter]

The game was boring as shite tonight, but people are kidding themselves and must have short memories to believe we didn't play like that away from home in Europe under Fergie. I can't be the only one who remembers our European games being largely awful to watch, especially in the group stage.

One thing that is worrying me, is the complete lack of invention and the fact that we struggle to get the ball up front and attack as a unit. It seems like there isn't really any plan of attack and it's been like that throughout the whole season. Even in the Swansea game, and really didn't think we were all that impressive up front and the goals came from moments of brilliance. You can't keep relying on Van Persie or Rooney (or whoever is in attack) to make something out of nothing. To me, there is just something not right about the way we attack.

 

[sglowrider]

I thought the decision to move Fellaini further up the pitch for the second half was bizarre, and wrong. He wasn't playing well, but at least by being there in the middle with the other two, it was making it difficult for Shaktar to find any space, and create anything. Moving Fellaini forward handed all the initiative to them.

This. Felliani's first touch isn't great and then he passes backwards or sideways when he is going forward on an counter! He slows things down for us.

 

[sglowrider]

Moyes will be fine. Not my first choice but he will figure things out. He just doesnt know the players yet. So he has strange selections and substitutions.

Did you know that he always surround himself with his triad -- Moyes, Round and Woods. Did Eric Steele ever sat next to Fergie? A goalkeeping coach next to Fergie? I think Moyes needs to get a bigger coaching staff.

Also said that Moyes won't know how much bigger United is as a club with its multitudes of responsibilities compared to Everton. Thats why Fergie never ran training sessions and Moyes still does.

 

[Shimo]

He played for the point. Against a very good team on the road. As he should have done.

Even playing for a point is playing scared. For a team like United there needs to be at least some intent to get the win. Playing for a point is for the other teams. Elite teams play smart but, also don't go and close up shop against teams that they are favored against.

No offense to the English supporters on the Caf but, United playing for a point is like when England go to places like Ukraine and play for a point, they don't have enough belief in their ability so go with the mindset from the off, a point is good enough. Do you really want United to be like that? I don't. The club should have a lot more belief in itself.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

Even playing for a point is playing scared. For a team like United there needs to be at least some intent to get the win. Playing for a point is for the other teams. Elite teams play smart but, also don't go and close up shop against teams that they are favored against.

No offense to the English supporters on the Caf but, United playing for a point is like when England go to places like Ukraine and play for a point, they don't have enough belief in their ability so go with the mindset from the off, a point is good enough. Do you really want United to be like that? I don't. The club should have a lot more belief in itself.

You ridiculously underestimate the opponent we played yesterday.

You do play for a point against good teams and win at home.

Do I want United to be like that? Yes, I would like United to be a team that gets through the group stages.

 

[fatboy]

Fergie himself admitted that in the earlier years, we were too gung ho going into potentially tricky away matches in the CL. Shakthar away is arguably one of the toughest games for us in group stages, so I think we did well with a draw.

 

[Steven Seagull]

Sensible team selection from Moyes considering Rooney was out. Think we could've introduced Nani or Kagawa but a point is a good result. Nothing new to what we've seen in the past few years under Ferguson, grinding out some good results with uninspiring performances.

He must follow this up with a more attacking approach at Sunderland though.

 

[Rood]

so far Moyes is doing better in Europe (where many felt he might stuggle due to lack fo experience) than the league, which is his usual bread and butter. He needs to start putting that right this weekend

again there was a lot of rotation in the line up plus a completely new 4-5-1 formation - but I suppose it was expected for a difficult Euro away and he got the point he came for.

 

[.Rossi]

Odd thing for me is, I dont give a shit how he does in Europe this year as the CL is something we need to give him time for and none of us can expect him to be a success in that right away...

The league though, I expected far better then the shit that has been produced so far and in my mind, there is no excuses for the league form so far.
Europe has been pretty good though

 

[NotoriousISSY]

Odd thing for me is, I dont give a shit how he does in Europe this year as the CL is something we need to give him time for and none of us can expect him to be a success in that right away...

The league though, I expected far better then the shit that has been produced so far and in my mind, there is no excuses for the league form so far.
Europe has been pretty good though

He won't, but what if he won the CL and finished 4th in the league?

 

[Randall Flagg]

He won't, but what if he won the CL and finished 4th in the league?

I would be over the moon and would totally forgive and forget about the dodgy league campaign

 

[Rood]

Odd thing for me is, I dont give a shit how he does in Europe this year as the CL is something we need to give him time for and none of us can expect him to be a success in that right away...

The league though, I expected far better then the shit that has been produced so far and in my mind, there is no excuses for the league form so far.
Europe has been pretty good though

Looks like he is prioritising the CL - the team selection for WBA was a bit weak as he was clearly saving players for last night.

 

[Brophs]

I imagine it's just the usual rush to get to 10 points, in the hope you'll have a dead rubber or two and you can rest players.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

I would be over the moon and would totally forgive and forget about the dodgy league campaign

It would be a very forgivable way to start out. I don't expect it but if Moyes an excel somewhere in the league or CL, we cannot complain.

It's always more prestigious to win them both, but given the circumstances we can't even expect to win the league. Lots and lots of change to come. A very slow process.

 

[pocco]

How predictable. RedRossi isn't interested in our form in the competition that we have started well in. Probably the same competition that he and others predicted Moyes would flop in.

 

[apotheosis]

Odd thing for me is, I dont give a shit how he does in Europe this year as the CL is something we need to give him time for and none of us can expect him to be a success in that right away...

The league though, I expected far better then the shit that has been produced so far and in my mind, there is no excuses for the league form so far.
Europe has been pretty good though

The league form hasn't been that bad. We got hammered by City, and had a shocker defensively against WBA. Other than that we have done no worse than we would have last season, where we also lost away at Anfield, and lost twice against Chelsea.

It's been a hell of a tough fixture list, and i doubt very much we would have been much higher up the league under SAF. Things must improve of course, and they will. This team is far better than 12th in the league, and once fixtures start to even themselves out i believe we will be there or thereabouts as usual.

Let's not forget that Spurs, Arsenal and Liverpool look far better than last season, Chelsea now have Mourinho back, and City have spent 90m on new players. It was always going to be much harder to win this year than it was last season, because many teams underperformed last season and we took full advantage of that. Anyone expecting such an easy ride again this year is deluding themselves. It would have been much tougher even for SAF to retain the league, and for Moyes tougher still.

 

[Comsmit]

You ridiculously underestimate the opponent we played yesterday.

You do play for a point against good teams and win at home.

Do I want United to be like that? Yes, I would like United to be a team that gets through the group stages.

No he's right, there wasn't enough belief. Shaktar were there for the taking at 1-0 and United never put any real pressure on their midfield and back-line after that. It was all very negative and backs to the wall. It's very difficult to invite pressure for 60-70 minutes and hold out. A point is a fair return but 3 points could have been achieved last night with a little more ambition. A win in Donetsk would have put us in total control of the group.

 

[Anduin]

The league form hasn't been that bad. We got hammered by City, and had a shocker defensively against WBA. Other than that we have done no worse than we would have last season, where we also lost away at Anfield, and lost twice against Chelsea.

We beat Liverpool at Anfield and won against Chelsea at the bridge last season.

 

[Randall Flagg]

The league form hasn't been that bad. We got hammered by City, and had a shocker defensively against WBA. Other than that we have done no worse than we would have last season, where we also lost away at Anfield, and lost twice against Chelsea.


.

Im all for giving Moyes a break and being patient.

But our league form and results have not been of a standard we have grown used to in the last couple of decades.


Losing 3 out of 6 opening games is not good at all for Man Utd.

Its just important that the match going supporters remain supportive and especially the players get through this.

 

[Shark]

We beat Liverpool at Anfield and won against Chelsea at the bridge last season.

Both of those wins were fecking messy, but satisfying. Chelsea went harshly down to 9 men and could have still gotten a draw and Liverpool went down to 10 men and still dominated us.

 

[gasmanc]

Even playing for a point is playing scared. For a team like United there needs to be at least some intent to get the win. Playing for a point is for the other teams. Elite teams play smart but, also don't go and close up shop against teams that they are favored against.

No offense to the English supporters on the Caf but, United playing for a point is like when England go to places like Ukraine and play for a point, they don't have enough belief in their ability so go with the mindset from the off, a point is good enough. Do you really want United to be like that? I don't. The club should have a lot more belief in itself.

New manager, struggling for form, suffering defensive lapses especially when looking for all out attack.

We may have the same players but the club is in a huge transition and will remain so until Moyes and the players have come to terms with one another. Moyes isn't just replacing a manager here like at City or Chelsea, he's walked into another mans life's work and the club has Alex Ferguson sown into the very fabric of every corridor he turns down.
The players are and have been moulded to play a certain way and need to adapt, Moyes needs to see his players abilities, weakness and strength, they need to grow towards each other and then they can start to play football together.
Going for a point was more than what it seems, avoiding defeat and being defensively sound was much much more important in the grand scheme of things and Moyes got it right. Had we lost the game then the resulting meltdown applies even more pressure to both players and manager.

Moyes so far has not set the world alight but he looks to be realising much of the same concerns as most on here and is not just blindly flapping around searching for answers. He has gone back to basics in a sense and should now build from the back. He knows his best defensive unit, he played it last night, he also had a good look at his best attacking options versus West Brom, hopefully now we see him combine the two and start to claw out results.

 

[Revan]

He won't, but what if he won the CL and finished 4th in the league?

It woyld be great and there wouldn't be as much doubt as now about Moyes ability. Also his confidence will bw much higher. While the league is always the priority simplt because it is much easier to win it than UCL, still Champions is another level and is the best competition.

I don't think that we even have an outside chance to win it though, but neither Chelsea did two seasons ago.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

No he's right, there wasn't enough belief. Shaktar were there for the taking at 1-0 and United never put any real pressure on their midfield and back-line after that. It was all very negative and backs to the wall. It's very difficult to invite pressure for 60-70 minutes and hold out. A point is a fair return but 3 points could have been achieved last night with a little more ambition. A win in Donetsk would have put us in total control of the group.

Sure, as long as you ignore what's been happening to the team over the past three weeks. We set up and attacked at West Brom and were run over.

Smart move by Moyes. Stop the bleeding. Move on.

 

[kouroux]

The draw is not a pb for me because it was what I hoped at the beginning of the match, the way the team went about it annoyed me. Surrendering the possession completely to the opponent, even away from home is just asking for trouble. I'm not focused on the results as it's still early stages in the season but the performances, the way the team has been playing, all of that has been average.

 

[misterredmist]

Well, the new manager is still finding his feet . I don't believe he was "scared" versus Shaktor, I agree he could may be have brought on Nani and / or Kagawa on at some point, but hang on a minute, weren't they the opposition who humped Chavski & Arsenal in recent seasons ? Their ceaseless pursuit of the ball for the whole match was quite spectacular, and I thought Vidic and his men did very well at the back, Rafael showed great skill , tenacity and maturity in his performance, Welbeck worked his socks off and Bush Head showed good glimpses but will learn that time will be too short for too many touches in away UCL matches.

Moyes is our manager, appointed by Fergie amongst others, we are far from any moment of judgement IMHO ..the transfer window was a complete shambles, but was it Moyes' fault ? I doubt it......let's just get behind the team, whoever he selects....

 

[pocco]

The draw is not a pb for me because it was what I hoped at the beginning of the match, the way the team went about it annoyed me. Surrendering the possession completely to the opponent, even away from home is just asking for trouble. I'm not focused on the results as it's still early stages in the season but the performances, the way the team has been playing, all of that has been average.

Let's not forget that Moyes is probably trying to find a system for when he faces the top teams also.

It might be wise that we learn to operate without the ball for the likes of Barca etc. with the counter attack being our philosophy, particularly away from home.

 

[devilish]

The pressure is going up for Moyes and things will only get worse. In my opinion he should

a) Kick the dead wood out. We've got an enormous squad (in terms of numbers) with a ridiculous amount of squad players in it. By kicking the dead wood out we'll have funds to bring new players, we'll free space for the new kids who are hungry for success and we'll put the right message that if you're not good enough then you're out through

b) Stick to your tactics. If you fail you're off anyway so stick to your guns, even though you may upset 1-2 players who are playing good at the moment. The 4-4-2 system is dead and buried. Its like playing long ball football or the catenaccio. So stick to the striker whose most in form, try to keep everyone happy by rotating playing or playing them in a different role but stick to your guns. If they leave because they are not happy then so be it.

c) FFS give a chance to the youth talent. Buttner ahead of Fabio? Young ahead of Januzaj? Giggs ahead of Kagawa? Rio ahead of Evans? Seriously? That's stupid. We're not fecking Everton were the only way to have a player with CL experience is to sign some wreck from a big club. United oozes with experience. So TAKE THE RISK.

d) Be choosy in terms of players. We need quality and its not easy to find. CM is an issue which wont be sorted by getting some random tall midfielder whose more renowned for heading balls and knocking players out then for his technique and creativity. If the club doesn't back you financially then go public. At the end of the day its your career that is on the line and if fail because the club is skint then your career is at stake.

 

[Van Piorsing]

The pressure is going up for Moyes and things will only get worse. In my opinion he should

a) Kick the dead wood out. We've got an enormous squad (in terms of numbers) with a ridiculous amount of squad players in it. By kicking the dead wood out we'll have funds to bring new players, we'll free space for the new kids who are hungry for success and we'll put the right message that if you're not good enough then you're out through

b) Stick to your tactics. If you fail you're off anyway so stick to your guns, even though you may upset 1-2 players who are playing good at the moment. The 4-4-2 system is dead and buried. Its like playing long ball football or the catenaccio. So stick to the striker whose most in form, try to keep everyone happy by rotating playing or playing them in a different role but stick to your guns. If they leave because they are not happy then so be it.

c) FFS give a chance to the youth talent. Buttner ahead of Fabio? Young ahead of Januzaj? Giggs ahead of Kagawa? Rio ahead of Evans? Seriously? That's stupid. We're not fecking Everton were the only way to have a player with CL experience is to sign some wreck from a big club. United oozes with experience. So TAKE THE RISK.

d) Be choosy in terms of players. We need quality and its not easy to find. CM is an issue which wont be sorted by getting some random tall midfielder whose more renowned for heading balls and knocking players out then for his technique and creativity. If the club doesn't back you financially then go public. At the end of the day its your career that is on the line and if fail because the club is skint then your career is at stake.

a) He will. He has no choice and he's not blind. This season is a last chance for Ando, Young and few others to prove their importance to the team. Sooner or later Giggs will have to focus more on coaching and Buttner won't have smallest chances with Fabio when he'll step to his brother's level which is getting closer with every game.

b) This one may be tricky. 10 years in Everton and then switching to juggernaut like United is a shock but as soon as he'll get rid of dead wood like You said the tactic department will work way better with much more talent and quality around to choose and rotate in any formation he'll decide to play.

c) Can't disagree and it's not even a risk at this point. Evans makes mistakes very rarely, Fabio learned the English game already and he can play on both sides. Januzaj and Kagawa will play for sure because their style of play is exactly what we've been missing. It's up to Moyesy to figure it out and also find some space for Zaha which is leading us back to getting rid of dead wood.

d) Fellaini is not some random tall player and among many Belgian talents he already made some impact in the Premier League. This season will be all about establishing where he will play and I would wait with a judgement on him. I also cannot see next transfer windows without signing players with creativity, technique and pace. This may be live or die situation for Moyes at Old Trafford.

 

[ravelston]

I agree. If his job is safe, then it would definitely benefit the team in the long run, as well as maybe in the short term, to give more resposibility to our younger attacking players. Maybe give Januzaj more starts, give Kagawa more playing time and make Nani a key player. Sure it might take a while for them to click, but in all likelihood, they will give us some great attacking play. What benefit does playing Young give us? He's 28 years old, not very good, not very creative, doesn't get anyone excited on the ball, and doesn't really score many goals. Some might say it's playing it safe, because he works hard defensively, and it would be naive to go for it all the time playing a front four of Kagawa, Nani, Rooney and Van Persie, without putting more defensive players on the pitch. However, seeing as 'playing it safe' has resulted in us having 3 losses already in the league, as well as shit performances, I think we'd be better off simply going for it, and at least go down fighting. I think the vast majority of us fans as well would like to see some naivety for once maybe, and put out attacking lineups that will at least make for exciting games. Something like how we were in the 90's, where we had the you score 4, we'll score 5 attitude. Show us that the team is heading somewhere. We more then likely won't win anything this season apart from maybe one of the domestic cups either way, so what would be the harm in giving our more exciting attacking players a bigger role then the likes of Valencia and Young?

I know I'd personally be perfectly fine with us finishing 4th for this season, but playing exciting football and having Nani and Kagawa key players, with Januzaj being given plenty of opportunities as well, but not winning anything. Would probably rather that for this season then 'play it safe' and scrape a cup win somewhere, and just qualify for champions league again next year safely.

Where does this idea that we scored for fun in the 90's come from? In the seven full Premiership seasons in the 90's we averaged more than 9 goals a season fewer than we have over the last seven seasons (I've adjusted for the first two of those 90's seasons having 42 games). The only season we've really "scored for fun" was 99-00 - and even then we scored most of the goals in the 2000 half of the season.