Moyes So Far!

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SER19 said:
a reasoned post, but this bit is based on pure assumption. its a rubbish point to be fair and im not having a go. all you know is that apparantly moyes trains teams hard. well look how it worked at a much inferior team, are our poor gentle players not ready for it. Every single problem we have this season was there last season, moyes mistake has been not improving what was a glaringly shite and predictable midfield. its truly that simple. we have no chance of defending with our midfield and nor do we have any chance of doing something other than what we do. its appalling, and has been for years and any half decent team knows exactly how to stifle us.
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Agreed I am speculating, but even if we looked bad last year, this is the worst start in 24 years! Now that could just be a few difficult fixtures and our typically slow start, but on paper what has changed, a new manager! I struggle to believe the overall quality would become that markedly worse to result in losses. That leaves me to think its something to do with the players and the only real change is in training. The line-ups have not been that different to how it was under SAF either.

Regarding the players, we have more talented players, doesn't mean they are all at the level of fitness of the Everton players. Fitness programs take time to pay back and at different rates for different players. Rooney seems to be thriving. Others are maybe not there yet.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yeah, it's all just intangible guff. That said, I agree with the essential message that Moyes came across as a steely, angry bastard (to me, anyway) while he was at Everton, which is exactly the sort of mood we need to foster at the club now. He seems to be feeling sorry for himself, when he should be furious at the players letting him down.

Of course, it's quite possible he's tearing strips off them away from the intrusions of the press.
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Moyes approach from the off has confused me slightly.

Take the difficult opening fixtures for example, which he complained very publicly about. I would have thought he would have seen it as a golden opportunity to get a big win early on and get everyone behind him. He saw it as a problem rather than an opportunity.

I agree with you that he needs to change his attitude.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Moyes approach from the off has confused me slightly.

Take the difficult opening fixtures for example which he complained very publicly about. I would have thought he would have seen it as a golden opportunity to get a big win early on and get everyone behind him. He saw it as a problem rather than an opportunity.

I agree with you that he needs to change his attitude.
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Exactly. I don't get the feeling at the moment that he actually wants this job.
 
Talking Vulture said:
But it can't get any worse and can only go better from here, surely?
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There is actually some potential positives to be taken from this (bizarrely).

Over the Summer many people were talking about how Fergie had left the squad in such incredible shape; how Fergie had built Man Utd from the ground up, which meant there couldn't be a "bust" when he departed. Basically how a competent incoming manager had no excuses with the current squad and club infrastructure. People spoke specifically about the club not being in the state it was when Fergie took over, so obviously the same time wouldn't be needed.

Now a lot of people are accepting that a 4th place finish and "round of 32" Champions league knockout would be relatively acceptable or par for the course. People are talking as though it will inevitably take 3-4 years for the manager to mould the team with his idea's and philosophies and that 5th place or below is almost acceptable.

With this mindset Moyes can't fail in the next 3-4 years, and whilst I don't subscribe to it, it certainly eases the pressure on him.
 
I was talking to a PNE insider last night who had previously assured me that Moyes was a brilliant motivator and man manager. He said that he was shocked at the way Moyes had aged since moving to United and how he was dealing with the press. His view was that the job was far bigger than he had anticipated and that he had been overwhelmed with the enormity of it all. His view was that he would grow into the job but that he should have appointed an assistant manager, someone with vast experience at United who would provide continuity and take some of the pressure off. Rene would have been ideal.
 
shaggy said:
The fooball is garbage but it was the majority of the time under Fergie's last few years with us as well. But we created a lot more chances under Fergie's teams.
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finneh said:
There is actually some potential positives to be taken from this (bizarrely).

Over the Summer many people were talking about how Fergie had left the squad in such incredible shape; how Fergie had built Man Utd from the ground up, which meant there couldn't be a "bust" when he departed. Basically how a competent incoming manager had no excuses with the current squad and club infrastructure. People spoke specifically about the club not being in the state it was when Fergie took over, so obviously the same time wouldn't be needed.

Now a lot of people are accepting that a 4th place finish and "round of 32" Champions league knockout would be relatively acceptable or par for the course. People are talking as though it will inevitably take 3-4 years for the manager to mould the team with his idea's and philosophies and that 5th place or below is almost acceptable.

With this mindset Moyes can't fail in the next 3-4 years, and whilst I don't subscribe to it, it certainly eases the pressure on him.
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We played some utter shit under Fergie over the last few seasons but he knew how to get a win playing that way.

Everyone can see we are a squad with a lot of average players - Moyes isn't stupid, he knows all about the players he's got now. Players like Anderson, Young, Valencia, Buttner, & Cleverley just aren't cut out for United.

Rio Ferdinand is looking like he's lost it - we know he has no pace but the goals where he has been at fault this season beggars belief.
On Saturday, why did we play that back 4? Surely Rafael on the right with Jones and Evans in the middle was the sensible option?

His biggest task now I feel is shipping out the wasters in the squad. And obviously getting us back to winning ways.
 
Henry Winter said:
In the modern world where perception is key...
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Well perhaps the problem lies not with David Moyes but with 'the modern world' as presented to us by the media, Henry. Just a thought.
 
Rednails said:
I was talking to a PNE insider last night who had previously assured me that Moyes was a brilliant motivator and man manager. He said that he was shocked at the way Moyes had aged since moving to United and how he was dealing with the press. His view was that the job was far bigger than he had anticipated and that he had been overwhelmed with the enormity of it all. His view was that he would grow into the job but that he should have appointed an assistant manager, someone with vast experience at United who would provide continuity and take some of the pressure off. Rene would have been ideal.
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Someone like Ryan Giggs, perhaps?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I thought that "vast experience at United" was one of the criteria?

Rene joined in 2007. Giggs had already been with the club 20 years at that point.
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He had been at Unitef since 2001 (except 2006-2007) which is 11 years. He has a big experience in coaching, something Giggs doesn't. Only time will tell, but I think Moyes will regret that he sacked the entire coaching staff.
 
Phah, we made enough chances in that first half to be out of sight. People seem to have taken the result and forgotten that we actually looked decent going forward in the first 45. The only gripe I have with our play on Saturday was the two full backs and Rio. The rest were all OK and we would have won the game comfortably enough if we had proper fullbacks or a centrehalf who looks half interested/
 
I've said he was the right man all along and stand by it. That said, his persistence in referring to United as they is starting to really grate me now. WTF is that all about?
 
He should start refering to himself in the third person... that would be a great way to build up his presence within the club.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
Phah, we made enough chances in that first half to be out of sight. People seem to have taken the result and forgotten that we actually looked decent going forward in the first 45. The only gripe I have with our play on Saturday was the two full backs and Rio. The rest were all OK and we would have won the game comfortably enough if we had proper fullbacks or a centrehalf who looks half interested/
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Exactly my thoughts. From the post match thread when my blood was still boiling:

antohan said:
Nani showed he should be starting, Januzaj was impressive and grew in the face of adversity.

Problem was this stupid notion of conservative fullbacks paired with less defensive widemen. feck that, you need the danger of Nani/Kagawa trying to carve openings on the inside AND the fullbacks stretching the defence.

Rio should take up ballet, he has been perfecting spinning around of late. Buttner should never ever start and Fabio deserves a go.

RvP is not in the same form as last season, Moyes jumped the gun a bit with that sub.

Overall lots of useful lessons and some promising take-aways despite the loss.

Need to stop learning from losses though.
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antohan said:
Exactly my thoughts. From the post match thread when my blood was still boiling:
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We were hampered so badly by our fullbacks because Jones offered nothing going forward giving West Brom the freedom off their right and Buttner was so poor defensively that Evans was trying to cover him when he could have been covering Rio. Attacking fullbacks offer more to the teams defence than simply defending. Them being a threat going forward restricts the way the opposition can break and when you have players like we did the opposition know they can disregard them.

Rio should be given a nice long break again to get his head right.
 
Bestie07 said:
He basically wrote a huge wall of text for something that could have been said in a single line.
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Same could be said about 90% of football articles to be honest. In most, you are doing well if that single line would be worth writing. (I have a real bug bear about articles saying things like: "Rio believes United can win the league this year" or "Evra says team is focused on winning next game": so utterly pointless.)

I actually thought that article was quite good.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
It's not his head. He's aged. Sometimes it's fast, sometimes it's slow.
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I agree to an extent, but he's not gone from being a pretty good centre back last season when used sparingly to being one who has performed awfully in almost every game this season just because of his legs. His confidence looks completely shot.
 
Adebesi said:
I actually thought that article was quite good.
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Same here. Thought that was a decent read from Winter. With all the shit hitting the fan in the last couple of weeks, it hopefully reminds people that Moyes is a bloody good manager. He just needs time.
 
RedTillI'mDead said:
Agreed I am speculating, but even if we looked bad last year, this is the worst start in 24 years! Now that could just be a few difficult fixtures and our typically slow start, but on paper what has changed, a new manager! I struggle to believe the overall quality would become that markedly worse to result in losses. That leaves me to think its something to do with the players and the only real change is in training. The line-ups have not been that different to how it was under SAF either.

Regarding the players, we have more talented players, doesn't mean they are all at the level of fitness of the Everton players. Fitness programs take time to pay back and at different rates for different players. Rooney seems to be thriving. Others are maybe not there yet.
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i agree in part but i think youre probably underestimating the effect, not that a new manager has, but somebody like alex ferguson leaving has on a set of players, let alone his entire staff and chief executive. add the tough fixtures, rooney missing verus liverpool, van persie missing versus city and weve had a bad run of it. performance vs west brom was utterly awful though and no excuses can be made
 
Irwinwastheking said:
I agree to an extent, but he's not gone from being a pretty good centre back last season when used sparingly to being one who has performed awfully in almost every game this season just because of his legs. His confidence looks completely shot.
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Aye - it's hard to tell given Rio's age. He could be where Gary Neville was eventually - simply done. Or it could be a bad spell from which he could easily recover. I find it strange that Moyes has played him this much, I must say. Sure, he might have been the safest option in one sense - and playing it safe has clearly been Moyes' approach in the big games thus far - but his history is well documented. He hasn't been used this extensively for a long time. Oh well, I'm sure he will be rested for a spell now - and hopefully he still has some juice left.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
I agree to an extent, but he's not gone from being a pretty good centre back last season when used sparingly to being one who has performed awfully in almost every game this season just because of his legs. His confidence looks completely shot.
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It's not just your legs that go. Trust me, I'm old. Reflexes, the mind a bit. You're just not what you were. It's always going to be more exaggerated in a top athlete. And that would naturally effect his confidence. But I'm not seeing it as a confidence problem.

And let's not pretend like Rio hasn't lost his speed. He did a while ago. What was still keeping him as a top defender was being used much less and his positioning. There's only so long one can do that. He's played a part in every goal we have conceded.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
It's not just your legs that go. Trust me, I'm old. Reflexes, the mind a bit. You're just not what you were. It's always going to be more exaggerated in a top athlete. And that would naturally effect his confidence. But I'm not seeing it as a confidence problem.

And let's not pretend like Rio hasn't lost his speed. He did a while ago. What was still keeping him as a top defender was being used much less and his positioning. There's only so long one can do that. He's played a part in every goal we have conceded.
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I hope you're wrong about him, but on the showing so far I don't know.
 
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Get em Moyesy..
 
Bestie07 said:
Two points which might or might not be relevant, but there have been points raised about us not scoring from open play and Everton having a wonderful start under Martinez:

1) Everton had 13 points after 6 games last season. This season they have 12.
2) Chelsea have scored only two goals from open play all season.

This doesn't discount the fact that we are playing horribly, but some cheap shots are being taken at Moyes with regards to Martinez having a wonderful start at Everton, I read somewhere that "Moyes was holding Everton back all these years"!
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LR7 said:
To be fair to Moyes they had a flying start last season too iirc.
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That's an unfair comparison unless we compare how many points we had at this stage last season.
 
SER19 said:
i agree in part but i think youre probably underestimating the effect, not that a new manager has, but somebody like alex ferguson leaving has on a set of players, let alone his entire staff and chief executive. add the tough fixtures, rooney missing verus liverpool, van persie missing versus city and weve had a bad run of it. performance vs west brom was utterly awful though and no excuses can be made
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True, SAF was someone that players wanted to play for. He was like the ultimate puppet master! So yes fair play there probably is an element of hard feeling in the dressing room, discomfort trying to work under a new manager, etc. However, even still this should at last be outweighed by the need to prove yourself under a new manager, but maybe our players don't handle that kind of stress well.

I guess even from an office environment if a boss change it can feel like a lot of hard work has gone to waste and you go back to square one rebuilding your reputation. On the flip side winners find a way! And we are not exactly some crap team! We are a team of winners or won the title by 11 points last year! The confidence and self belief should be sufficient regardless and the desire to win should be instilled!
 
Shakhtar Donetsk boss Mircea Lucescu says Manchester United's poor start to the season is down to David Moyes' policy of rotating his team.​
But Lucescu says Moyes simply needs time to work out what talent is at his disposal and how best to deploy it.​
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Lucescu said: "Of course every coach needs some time to look at a new way.​
"There can always be some changes of philosophy and maybe that's why Manchester United are facing some difficulties in their championship. We have analysed their games and noted there are always some changes. Because of rotation the links between players are not very good.​
"Turnover creates a lot of problems for them. In Ukrainian championship we are not rotating the squad as much. Maybe that is why we have been more secure."​
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Lucescu is bang on here, I had said before that I think Moyes has rotated too much and needs to start settling the team a bit. Making some changes and using the squad is fine, but he is not finding the right balance at the moment.
 
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