Moyes So Far!

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Sarni said:
Weren't we on like 38 points after first 19 games? Which would mean that regardless if we win the next 5 games or not we'd be worse off than our half season course.
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Nope - we had 34pts after the first 19 games, so a 72pt total would represent a small improvement. However given that we were only 2pts behind Liverpool at the half way stage, it's still been a very poor second half of the season.
http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/premier-league/2013-2014/table/2013-12-29
http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/premier-league/2013-2014/table/2013-12-29
 
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Big Ben Foster said:
Is that a sign of progress though? Everton under Moyes used to do the same thing year after year- they would finish the season very strongly when all the pressure was off and there was nothing left to play for.
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I would say the usual pattern is a drop in the results when there is nothing left to play for. So that is unusual (I agree that Everton do tend to finish stronger than how they started). It could be so Everton just finish strongly independent of pressure, who knows, it's up to the board to analyse.

I would think 10 wins in 12 games is better than not ending with that and also the fact he would have done the best away from home suggests a hint of potential.

I can't say he will get champions league next season however if he got to 72 points and strengthened the squad, then I can't see him getting less than 80 next season because surely things will only get better!

It is very worrying if he struggles under pressure though. I would argue the pressure of this job and from the board is immense therefore these last games very well could be him playing for his job.
 
That reminds me of Moyes' reasoning earlier in the season that both he and United tended to finish their seasons stronger than they started, he was wrong, we worsened.
 
Empire said:
I would say the usual pattern is a drop in the results when there is nothing left to play for.
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Can go both ways. Arsenal have often choked when the pressure was on around Feb/March time. Then when they're definitely out of the running for the title, they pick up and secure 4th. Normally at Spurs expense.
 
Empire said:
I would say the usual pattern is a drop in the results when there is nothing left to play for. So that is unusual (I agree that Everton do tend to finish stronger than how they started). It could be so Everton just finish strongly independent of pressure, who knows, it's up to the board to analyse.

I would think 10 wins in 12 games is better than not ending with that and also the fact he would have done the best away from home suggests a hint of potential.

I can't say he will get champions league next season however if he got to 72 points and strengthened the squad, then I can't see him getting less than 80 next season because surely things will only get better!

It is very worrying if he struggles under pressure though. I would argue the pressure of this job and from the board is immense therefore these last games very well could be him playing for his job.
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It depends on what the side has played for. If you're a smaller side, you may take your foot off the gas and lose more often, but there have been lots of cases where a side has failed over the season, but finished strongly. Everton did it regularly, Liverpool did it when Dalglish took over, and Chelsea did it in 2010/2011 when they'd had their awful run. We looked certain to walk the title, but they hit a good run and nearly won it, although we managed to beat them.

Don't get me wrong, it's certainly better to end strongly than not, but the assumption that we'll win our next 5 games is very optimistic when we've got to come up against Everton, who will be favourites, and Southampton, who we won't be clear favourites against.

For next season, it's a bit naive to assume that we'll suddenly get 80 points because things will only get better. There's no guarantee of that at all.
 
Cheesy said:
ged to beat them.

Don't get me wrong, it's certainly better to end strongly than not, but the assumption that we'll win our next 5 games is very optimistic when we've got to come up against Everton, who will be favourites, and Southampton, who we won't be clear favourites against.

For next season, it's a bit naive to assume that we'll suddenly get 80 points because things will only get better. There's no guarantee of that at all.
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I wasn't saying we will get 72 points but talking about how it's still a possibility and so it's better to have a lot of these discussions at the end of the season. I don't know how many points we will get; it's better not to predict but wait and see.

What do you think is most likely to happen with Moyes next season? More or less points and approximately how many?

I'm not saying 80 points is a guarantee, what I mean by I can't see him getting less is that I would expect him to be getting around 10 or more points than he did this season with a stronger squad and also learning from a lot of mistakes. I know nothing is guaranteed, just merely what I would expect to happen.
 
If, as expected, our summer business remedies some of the weak areas in this team, then I don't see how we can fail to improve next season.
 
Empire said:
I wasn't saying we will get 72 points but talking about how it's still a possibility and so it's better to have a lot of these discussions at the end of the season. I don't know how many points we will get; it's better not to predict but wait and see.

What do you think is most likely to happen with Moyes next season? More or less points and approximately how many?

I'm not saying 80 points is a guarantee, what I mean by I can't see him getting less is that I would expect him to be getting around 10 or more points than he did this season with a stronger squad and also learning from a lot of mistakes. I know nothing is guaranteed, just merely what I would expect to happen.
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I'm not completely sure. I'd like to think we'll improve, but that assumes we'll make the right purchases in the summer and that Moyes will improve his style of management which clearly hasn't worked so far. I'd like to think he'll get the first one right, but with a number of new players needed it's far from guaranteed, especially if those players don't settle in immediately or gel with their teammates around them.

I hope we improve in the summer, but it's not as simple as just picking up a couple of very good players. Moyes has got to know how to use them, and has got to use a system which maximises them. I'm not certain he'll do that with top quality players. Until Mata got some time in a more central role, it was beginning to look like he'd be limited out on the wing for us.
 
Cheesy said:
I hope we improve in the summer, but it's not as simple as just picking up a couple of very good players. Moyes has got to know how to use them, and has got to use a system which maximises them. I'm not certain he'll do that with top quality players. Until Mata got some time in a more central role, it was beginning to look like he'd be limited out on the wing for us.
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And thats something i have no faith in, he has shown (albeit his brief time) that he is tactically inept. Getting a few good players in and expecting them to "play" is hardly going to send Europe (or the rest of the league) quaking in their boots.
 
Empire said:
I would say the usual pattern is a drop in the results when there is nothing left to play for. So that is unusual (I agree that Everton do tend to finish stronger than how they started). It could be so Everton just finish strongly independent of pressure, who knows, it's up to the board to analyse.

I would think 10 wins in 12 games is better than not ending with that and also the fact he would have done the best away from home suggests a hint of potential.
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I don't feel this away form hints at potential. To be honest, for me, games away from home & games against big teams like Bayern are what suit Moyes and his defensive tactics. Against teams worse than us, away from home, he sets up the team to keep it tight, and hit them on the break. This works against these teams, because they're just not that good. At home against the same teams when the pressure is on us to attack, he can't get it right. He doesn't know how to do this, he's a negative manager.

The Bayern game was absolutely perfect for him. He could send out a team against a superior side to essentially sit back and try to contain them, then hopefully hit them on the break. Which we managed to do. But as is often the case, this won't get you through two legs, and the better side won.

In my opinion Moyes doesn't have what it takes to push on and go and win things. He's just too negative and needs to go.
 
DWelbz19 said:
If he's watching anybody I hope it's Garay and Salvio. Not a fan of Mangala, and isn't Fernando basically in some sort of deal with City?
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Could be. Plenty of players worth watching tonight. Here are the starting eleven from both teams (i´ll put the interesting players on bold):

Benfica: Artur, Maxi Pereira, Jardel, Garay and Siqueira; André Gomes, Enzo Perez, Sálvio and Gaitan; Rodrigo and Cardozo

Porto: Fabiano, Alex Sandro, Mangala, Diego Reyes, Danilo; Herrera, Fernando, Defour; Quaresma, Varela, Jackson Martinez

About Fernando nothing is confirmed yet. In fact he has renewed his Porto contract, so i don´t know where he is going to end up.
 
Sly said:
Could be. Plenty of players worth watching tonight. Here are the starting eleven from both teams (i´ll put the interesting players on bold):

Benfica: Artur, Maxi Pereira, Jardel, Garay and Siqueira; André Gomes, Enzo Perez, Sálvio and Gaitan; Rodrigo and Cardozo

Porto: Fabiano, Alex Sandro, Mangala, Diego Reyes, Danilo; Herrera, Fernando, Defour; Quaresma, Varela, Jackson Martinez

About Fernando nothing is confirmed yet. In fact he has renewed his Porto contract, so i don´t know where he is going to end up.
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What do you make of Alex Sandro? I heard that what Porto want to do is force Fernando to sign a new contract so he doesn't leave on a free/cheap, and that they were more than willing to put him in the reserves if he didn't agree. Not sure how much of that is true, I'm sure you could offer some clarification. Gaitan was somebody who looked a big star a few seasons back but hasn't quite followed his promise, whilst Salvio has impressed me quite a lot, it's a shame he got that long term injury for a lot of this season. He also seems to suit us more; he's a lot more direct than Gaitan, and is just as effective on the ball.
 
Kaos said:
I seriously hope him scouting players isn't indication of him staying on another season :nervous:
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:lol: These were also my sentiments, but perhaps the board haven't formally made the decision? Even if he does or doesn't know he's getting sacked, he isn't going to stop doing his job now, is he?
 
JSMHE said:
What does the article says by the way. I couldn't understand the language.

I think instead of watching Everton vs CP. I prefer to watch Benfica vs Porto.
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I´ll do a quick translation:

Tonight´s classic match up in the Estádio da Luz, has attracted the interest of several european clubs, with Manchester United represented by their manager David Moyes. It´s usual to see interest in Porto and Benfica players such as Garay, Gaitán, Mangala, Fernando, Alex Sandro ou Jackson and Moyes is watching potencial targets.

There are also other european clubs tonight at the stadium scouting such as Juventus, Chelsea, Liverpool, Fulham, Watford, West Bromwich (England), Celtic (Scotland), Montpellier (France), PSV Eindhoven (Holland), Udinese (Italy), Celta de Vigo (Spain) e Wisla Cracóvia (Poland)
 
Sly said:
I´ll do a quick translation:

Tonight´s classic match up in the Estádio da Luz, has attracted the interest of several european clubs, with Manchester United represented by their manager David Moyes. It´s usual to see interest in Porto and Benfica players such as Garay, Gaitán, Mangala, Fernando, Alex Sandro ou Jackson and Moyes is watching potencial targets.

There are also other european clubs tonight at the stadium scouting such as Juventus, Chelsea, Liverpool, Fulham, Watford, West Bromwich (England), Celtic (Scotland), Montpellier (France), PSV Eindhoven (Holland), Udinese (Italy), Celta de Vigo (Spain) e Wisla Cracóvia (Poland)
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cool thanks.
 
dirkey said:
I don't feel this away form hints at potential. To be honest, for me, games away from home & games against big teams like Bayern are what suit Moyes and his defensive tactics. Against teams worse than us, away from home, he sets up the team to keep it tight, and hit them on the break. This works against these teams, because they're just not that good. At home against the same teams when the pressure is on us to attack, he can't get it right. He doesn't know how to do this, he's a negative manager.

The Bayern game was absolutely perfect for him. He could send out a team against a superior side to essentially sit back and try to contain them, then hopefully hit them on the break. Which we managed to do. But as is often the case, this won't get you through two legs, and the better side won.

In my opinion Moyes doesn't have what it takes to push on and go and win things. He's just too negative and needs to go.
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With the away thing that was my point. The fact he knows how to keep things tight and hit on the counter therefore he needs to only work on controlling the game, keeping the ball and breaking teams down when they are content to play on the counter and we must take the initiative.

I'm not supporting Moyes i'm merely talking from the viewpoint he is here next season and identifying a positive in that he can play on the counter. Then one can only hope he figures out how to set up teams to take control when that is needed, perhaps he needs to bring somebody in to help, I don't know.

It's better than being awful home and away. At least he has an idea what his problem is although we all noticed it early on.
 
DWelbz19 said:
What do you make of Alex Sandro? I heard that what Porto want to do is force Fernando to sign a new contract so he doesn't leave on a free/cheap, and that they were more than willing to put him in the reserves if he didn't agree. Not sure how much of that is true, I'm sure you could offer some clarification. Gaitan was somebody who looked a big star a few seasons back but hasn't quite followed his promise, whilst Salvio has impressed me quite a lot, it's a shame he got that long term injury for a lot of this season. He also seems to suit us more; he's a lot more direct than Gaitan, and is just as effective on the ball.
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Alex Sandro is a great player. If he lives up to his potencial, i can see him having a great career and being Brazil´s future left back in their national team. Very energetic left back, plenty of pace and good technic. Defends with reasonable efficiency and is very dangerous in the attack. Has a decent cross and passing ability. I think Porto will earn good money when they sell him.

About Fernando, don´t know what happened but he did renew with Porto. My guess is that he renew out of gratitude for everything Porto did for his career but they have a tactical understanding to let him leave in the summer. My guess is that he will go to City along with Mangala in a big transfer package.

I agree with your opinion about Gaitan and Sálvio. I think Sálvio is a good player that deserves another chance in an european top club. His first stint at Atlético didn´t go that well but they had alot of choices. Both him and Gaitan are very good wingers but Sálvio in my opinion is less flashy but more productive and less inconsistent. The problems i´d point out in each players are Sálvio being injury prone and Gaitan being too inconsistent (ability to be a world beater and become a very average player in the next game). Don´t think Gaitan is good enough for United (perhaps Spain or Italy clubs like Valência, Sevilla or Fiorentina) and Sálvio is a good player but i´m skeptical how he would adapt to a physical league like the English premier league.
 
Empire said:
With the away thing that was my point. The fact he knows how to keep things tight and hit on the counter therefore he needs to only work on controlling the game, keeping the ball and breaking teams down when they are content to play on the counter and we must take the initiative.

I'm not supporting Moyes i'm merely talking from the viewpoint he is here next season and identifying a positive in that he can play on the counter. Then one can only hope he figures out how to set up teams to take control when that is needed, perhaps he needs to bring somebody in to help, I don't know.

It's better than being awful home and away. At least he has an idea what his problem is although we all noticed it early on.
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Do you think he has an idea though? I don't. He seems utterly clueless to me. I haven't seen anything to say that he'll change suddenly after however many years in management, and become an attacking manager. This is what he is. His record against the big teams while with Everton wasn't a fluke. He's just a decent manager, not good enough to be managing at the top most level.
 
If we can beat Everton on the weekend we will finally get our invitation to the race for fifth!
 
DWelbz19 said:
:lol: These were also my sentiments, but perhaps the board haven't formally made the decision? Even if he does or doesn't know he's getting sacked, he isn't going to stop doing his job now, is he?
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That would be grand actually, would probably suit us in the long run.
 
dirkey said:
Do you think he has an idea though? I don't. He seems utterly clueless to me. I haven't seen anything to say that he'll change suddenly after however many years in management, and become an attacking manager. This is what he is. His record against the big teams while with Everton wasn't a fluke. He's just a decent manager, not good enough to be managing at the top most level.
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I don't think he needs to be an attacking manager to be successful. Even when breaking teams down we just need to keep the ball better when pressed and play at a higher tempo with far more off the ball motion.

I'm not sure how good he is tactically, I haven't seen him much before United however I would imagine he knows what he is doing otherwise he wouldn't have the job. Furthermore, if he identifies tactics as an area where we did struggle one would like to think he will bring in a top tactician to help as did Ferguson.

I don't know if he has an idea, I also cannot see him mounting a serious title challenge. I would imagine he will be gone come this summer and we will get somebody more proven in however if he isn't then he might be gone when somebody of a high quality becomes available.

The Glazers want the title, they want it because it will result in far more lucrative commercial deals. If he can't give them this; they will find somebody who can.

We'll see what happens, I would like to think the glazers have asked their personal advisors regarding football to review his Everton performance and understand more about whether he can solve the problems.

With Louis Van Gaal at the very least available; they must be considering their options.
 
I wouldn't be shocked if Pelligrini was binned by the Sheik. It appears likely Moyes will outlast both City and Barca's managers.
 
Empire said:
I don't think he needs to be an attacking manager to be successful. Even when breaking teams down we just need to keep the ball better when pressed and play at a higher tempo with far more off the ball motion.

I'm not sure how good he is tactically, I haven't seen him much before United however I would imagine he knows what he is doing otherwise he wouldn't have the job. Furthermore, if he identifies tactics as an area where we did struggle one would like to think he will bring in a top tactician to help as did Ferguson.

I don't know if he has an idea, I also cannot see him mounting a serious title challenge. I would imagine he will be gone come this summer and we will get somebody more proven in however if he isn't then he might be gone when somebody of a high quality becomes available.

The Glazers want the title, they want it because it will result in far more lucrative commercial deals. If he can't give them this; they will find somebody who can.

We'll see what happens, I would like to think the glazers have asked their personal advisors regarding football to review his Everton performance and understand more about whether he can solve the problems.

With Louis Van Gaal at the very least available; they must be considering their options.
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He doesn't have to set his team up to play attacking football to win trophies it's true, but he will have to get the team playing entertaining football to keep the fans onside. Only so long people will put up with watching the shit thats been on display for the majority of this season.

If the football doesn't improve sharply next season if he is still here, he will lose a lot of support i reckon.
 
stevoc said:
He doesn't have to set his team up to play attacking football to win trophies it's true, but he will have to get the team playing entertaining football to keep the fans onside. Only so long people will put up with watching the shit thats been on display for the majority of this season.

If the football doesn't improve sharply next season if he is still here, he will lose a lot of support i reckon.
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But he's not set up the team to play attacking football all season and won nothing. Sir Alex could do this. And do you really think Moyes can play entertaining football with our team?
 
bobbyf said:
But he's not set up the team to play attacking football all season and won nothing. Sir Alex could do this. And do you really think Moyes can play entertaining football with our team?
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Its possible but i personally doubt it, at least not on a regular basis or against top teams, hes a cautious manager by nature will be hard for him to change half way through his career in my opinion.
 
bobbyf said:
Are you being ironic? Or is just finishing ahead of Everton some kind of achievement?
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It was a joke. Highlighting how we are aren't in the race for fifth really at the moment however by beating Everton then we can finally enter it and hope they slip up.
 
stevoc said:
Its possible but i personally doubt it, at least not on a regular basis or against top teams, hes a cautious manager by nature will be hard for him to change half way through his career in my opinion.
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He's managed our team for 50+games and I don't remember us playing entertaining football in more than 5 of them. Forget a few wins against poor sides. Like you said, it's just not in his nature.
 
Pulis has shown him up well and proper and with a shite infested inferior team. In fact, I rated Moyes more than Pulis but how on earth they've gained similar amount of points in the time Pulis has been there is beyond me.
 
I don't know my arse from my elbow regarding basketball, but I found this Kobe Bryant tweet relevant to our season.
 
TheGame said:
Yeah he tried by giving him 3 first team appearances! Anyway thats another discussion. My point is summed up in my original post. You seem to be implying that because Moyes let one player go who has made his name elsewhere, he hasn't got the ability to judge other players whereas there could have been a number of other reasons why the player went. Everton were well stocked at CB whereas we were struggling at CM. This happens at the number of clubs e.g Pogba so using it to criticise Moyes is weak at best.
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He gave him 3 appearances and would have had more if he committed. We didnt do enough, but thats besides the point. We rated him and gave him games and tried to get him to stay, the exact opposite of Mustafi and Moyes. You dont have a point. And no Everton werent well stocked with international class German Cbs
 
So he was at the Porto Vs. Benfica cup game yesterday. Having watched it myself, Moyes saw a fairly boring football match but there were a few things to note as well as a bunch of incidents off the ball.

He would have seen a very nice cross from Gaitan to the back post for Eduardo Salvio to head home. He would have seen that Alex Sandro should have done a bit better there at left back being beaten to the cross and not going with his head.

He would have seen most of the midfielders being decent, with Fernando standing out with his defensive work and cleaning things up in front of the defence as usual and expected of a defensive midfielder. For me the only CM who looked a bit above average on the ball was young Andre Gomes of Benfica. I know that along with Rodrigo he was signed to third party ownership by the same guy who was looking to buy Valencia months ago. He was fairly good defensively and offensively, and then broke out in the 79th minute to score an outstanding goal. If you go to 79 mins of the 2nd video here
http://livefootballvideo.com/fullmatch/portugal/taca-de-portugal/benfica-vs-porto-2
you can see what he managed to do. He's a 20 year old midfielder at 6'2 so I guess he fits the Moyes profile.

(I dont know if I'm allowed to post a link like that so if a mod takes a look and either gets rid of it or asks me to get rid of it I'll understand. Its not just the goal and not just highlights.)

He would also have seen an incredibly average Mangala at CB. One example of this would be sitting there waiting for the ball to roll to him while Salvio came in from behind and pinched the ball inside Mangala's own box, just unable to direct his shot on target and open the scoring. A lack of sharpness and awareness that should have cost him. Garay looks slightly more solid without being outstanding himself. So I'm sure Moyes would have seen these two players who are mentioned all the time and would have been thankful he has Smalling, Jones and Evans to call on because overall they arent any worse.

He would also have seen Rodrigo close down a Porto player, steal the ball and start running towards goal with only Mangala to beat. Only for Rodrigo to turn and trip himself over and waste the chance completely. So I doubt we're too high on him... Jackson Martinez had one or two bits of decent holdup play and was anonymous for the rest of the game. There were also a couple of clowny sending offs too for Siquera, Jorge Jesus the coach of Benfica for seemingly getting in the face of and shouting at his own player Jardel. I think it was Porto's coach also sent to the stands and Quaresma off for 2 bookings. I think that covers most things and about all of the players who have been linked with bigger clubs over the years.
 
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