Moyes So Far!

[BorisontheRock]

Rather than arguing the relative obscurity of the players Moyes finds, surely it's better to look at what he's done with those players. At the end of the day, I don't care if it's a big name player like RVP that we sign, or an unknown like Hernandez, prvovide he can do the business, that's the mark of the player. There are two aspects to this, firstly, Moyes bigger name signs tended to underperform under him And secondly, look how players have improved under Martinez showing that Moyes couldn't get extra out of them....

Bent at everton 7 goals 55 games, pre everton 30 goals 94 games
Johnson 17 goals 61 games, pre Everton 75 goals 145 games
Saha 27 goals in 97 games at Everton, 28 goals in 86 games at United
Yakubu 25 in 82 games at Everton, 25 in 73 at boro.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

But Ferguson never said that Henderson wasn't a good player. Just that he thought his body would break down sooner because of the way he runs.

FWIW I think the Henderson signing is an example of our scouting system working well, he's had one very good season but for the money Liverpool spent and the injury concerns we had with him it was probably prudent to look elsewhere. The failure was not bringing in a midfielder of any description, not necessarily going after Henderson.

Crikey, god knows what the running gait of some of our current players is like, seeing the number of injuries they pick up.

 

[shabadu84]

For me, the worry is that the only player who seems to have improved under Moyes is Rooney, whom he already had a relationship with previously. None of the other players this season seem to have improved from last year (not counting Januzaj). None of the other players have come out and actually credited Moyes with, well, anything. Some talk of how training and other things are different but I can't think of any player who has come out and said "I am doing X better because of Moyes/the coaches/the system." Just some canned quotes that the players support the manager or that everyone needs to step up more. He may not have "lost" the locker room yet, but I've seen nothing to suggest he ever truly won it over in the first place.

 

[Adebesi]

Hard to see how they could credit Moyes with anything more tangible than the fluff about training and ipads given we were champions last year and have been awful this year. It just wouldnt make any sense.

 

[bobbyf]

For me, the worry is that the only player who seems to have improved under Moyes is Rooney, whom he already had a relationship with previously. None of the other players this season seem to have improved from last year (not counting Januzaj). None of the other players have come out and actually credited Moyes with, well, anything. Some talk of how training and other things are different but I can't think of any player who has come out and said "I am doing X better because of Moyes/the coaches/the system." Just some canned quotes that the players support the manager or that everyone needs to step up more. He may not have "lost" the locker room yet, but I've seen nothing to suggest he ever truly won it over in the first place.

No he lost them a while back cos they just don't have any belief in him. Forget the games we won against poor teams, when we really needed the points in big games he could not deliver. That's what defines our season. Players also know that the manager will take the blame for poor results so will just say the usual platitudes.

 

[Ekeke]

Something interesting. Moyes had a young lad at Everton called Shkodran Mustafi, a German CB. He had him in the reserves and gave him 0 games in the first team before he was moved on in 2012.

He's been at Sampdoria this season and has been the highest rated CB 21 or younger at the start of the season in all the top leagues according to whoscored.com. Low has called him up to the Germany squad too. According to the same system Phil Jones was ranked 4th after Mustafi, Aurier and Antei.

What happened there then?

 

[redevil2]

Something interesting. Moyes had a young lad at Everton called Shkodran Mustafi, a German CB. He had him in the reserves and gave him 0 games in the first team before he was moved on in 2012.

He's been at Sampdoria this season and has been the highest rated CB 21 or younger at the start of the season in all the top leagues according to whoscored.com. Low has called him up to the Germany squad too. According to the same system Phil Jones was ranked 4th after Mustafi, Aurier and Antei.

What happened there then?

It means Moyes cannot identify talents and use them the way they should be used. This also means when he's given money to buy in the summer, why fans like us should be doubtful (and feel nervous) how Moyes can lead the club forward.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

It means Moyes cannot identify talents and use them the way they should be used. This also means when he's given money to buy in the summer, why fans like us should be doubtful (and feel nervous) how Moyes can lead the club forward.

There's a good chance that he will be given some very good money this summer and there's a possibility he might not utilize it properly. With the spike in TV revenues, most PL clubs will be flush with cash soon and the club that utilizes their resources well, identifying good players will have the upper hand. Another summer of big money on Fellaini like quality could set us back severely for many years especially if the Glazers severely regulate the cash flow after a big spending spree.

Clubs like Southampton have demonstrated quality in identifying talent and managers like Rodgers, Martinez surely will spend well. These clubs are above/close to us in the league and could well make a leap if we stay static for a while.

The upcoming summer is very important for the long term future of the club.

 

[redevil2]

There's a good chance that he will be given some very good money this summer and there's a possibility he might not utilize it properly. With the spike in TV revenues, most PL clubs will be flush with cash soon and the club that utilizes their resources well, identifying good players will have the upper hand. Another summer of big money on Fellaini like quality could set us back severely for many years especially if the Glazers severely regulate the cash flow after a big spending spree.

Clubs like Southampton have demonstrated quality in identifying talent and managers like Rodgers, Martinez surely will spend well. These clubs are above/close to us in the league and could well make a leap if we stay static for a while.

The upcoming summer is very important for the long term future of the club.

Agreed! This is especially true when clubs like Liverpool which had not won for so many years partly because of United and now if they do win it, they know that it is possible to win the league which gives them even more incentive to prevent us from getting the trophy back in the future.

Their taste of the trophy this year if they do win it, gives them more incentive to set us back and it's hard to create the fear factor again at OT pre 2013/14 season, unless we have a strong manager. What Moyes has done this season has so many repercussion and on so many levels.

 

[BennyBlanco]

United are trying to artificially recreate Sir Alex, it must be the funniest thing in the world to those outside the club, we as fans are too close to the situation of course to find it amusing however.

 

[bobbyf]

United are trying to artificially recreate Sir Alex, it must be the funniest thing in the world to those outside the club, we as fans are too close to the situation of course to find it amusing however.

It's ridiculous cos it will provbably never happen. And we certainly have been a laughing stock this season.

 

[Empire]

We need more of this:



And less of this:

 

[MrMarcello]

Moyes was in for Mikel Essien when he was still at Bastia, but didn't have the money to complete deal. He wanted Di Maria when Di Maria was a relative unknown outside of Benfica. So there's two examples of him being in for 'top players', only to be thwarted by Everton's relative lack of resources.

Quite a few clubs were after Essien before Lyon snatched him up. United had him on trial in 2000. Houllier wanted to sign him in 2003 along with Moyes and Robson. He wasn't an unknown prospect in the world football circles.

To think SAF could have snatched him up in 2003 instead of Djemba (the latter signed because he had a good match against United the prior year, sigh).

 

[Sky1981]

For me, the worry is that the only player who seems to have improved under Moyes is Rooney, whom he already had a relationship with previously. None of the other players this season seem to have improved from last year (not counting Januzaj). None of the other players have come out and actually credited Moyes with, well, anything. Some talk of how training and other things are different but I can't think of any player who has come out and said "I am doing X better because of Moyes/the coaches/the system." Just some canned quotes that the players support the manager or that everyone needs to step up more. He may not have "lost" the locker room yet, but I've seen nothing to suggest he ever truly won it over in the first place.

Is he playing better? Is he improving? What has he done apart from looking arsed? And at 300k he better look arsed.

There's no improvement, we have seen what Rooney is capable of when he's arsed, and this season, IMO he's just "arsed" enough to be arsed, I don't think Moyes improved him technically or positionally, he simply motivated him better (cough... by giving him 300k / week)

 

[Sky1981]

Somehow I imagined Building a pyramid

Rodgers probably introduced a Pulley and have his workers pushing it easier
Pep was probably teaching his slaves to operate a pulley he invented last year, while continuously modifying his pulley to be more efficient
Mourinho was probably charismatic enough to make the whole Egypt work for him for free, not just the slaves
Martinez was probably introduced this thing called pulley to the already well muscled evertonians, hence they now build faster.
Pellegrini probably a nice guy, but he didn't whip his slaves and their pulleys hard enough

Moyes would flog his workers to work harder in pulling that big slab of stone, probably pulled the stone himself at times. I can imagine Rene and Pheelan introduced him to Pulley but nah, the good ol'scot roll your sleeve and start digging mentality stuff

 

[shabadu84]

Is he playing better? Is he improving? What has he done apart from looking arsed? And at 300k he better look arsed.

There's no improvement, we have seen what Rooney is capable of when he's arsed, and this season, IMO he's just "arsed" enough to be arsed, I don't think Moyes improved him technically or positionally, he simply motivated him better (cough... by giving him 300k / week)

I actually agree with you, I don't think he's still anywhere near his best but compared to last season, he's improved. Sadly, that's it - and that was my point. What, if any, improvement has there been in any aspect of the team? I can't pick even one out. That alone probably explains so much of what's happened this season and so much about what will happen this summer (really, no matter what happens).

 

[Cal?]

Somehow I imagined Building a pyramid

Rodgers probably introduced a Pulley and have his workers pushing it easier
Pep was probably teaching his slaves to operate a pulley he invented last year, while continuously modifying his pulley to be more efficient
Mourinho was probably charismatic enough to make the whole Egypt work for him for free, not just the slaves
Martinez was probably introduced this thing called pulley to the already well muscled evertonians, hence they now build faster.
Pellegrini probably a nice guy, but he didn't whip his slaves and their pulleys hard enough

Moyes would flog his workers to work harder in pulling that big slab of stone, probably pulled the stone himself at times. I can imagine Rene and Pheelan introduced him to Pulley but nah, the good ol'scot roll your sleeve and start digging mentality stuff

Moyes has got rid of the pulley and decided to take down what was nearly a completed pyramid built by Sir Alex because it was too grand for him.

 

[MrMarcello]

Moyes has got rid of the pulley and decided to take down what was nearly a completed pyramid built by Sir Alex because it was too grand for him.

Well, in fairness, it was an aging pyramid. hehe

 

[fishfingers15]

Moyes apparently is very religious and a devout Christian. Maybe that'll make him unpopular with our evolution folks?

 

[Ubik]

Moyes apparently is very religious and a devout Christian. Maybe that'll make him unpopular with our evolution folks?

Nah, Klopp is as well. We're happy to overlook it.

 

[TheGame]

Something interesting. Moyes had a young lad at Everton called Shkodran Mustafi, a German CB. He had him in the reserves and gave him 0 games in the first team before he was moved on in 2012.

He's been at Sampdoria this season and has been the highest rated CB 21 or younger at the start of the season in all the top leagues according to whoscored.com. Low has called him up to the Germany squad too. According to the same system Phil Jones was ranked 4th after Mustafi, Aurier and Antei.

What happened there then?

Something Interesting, SAF had a young lad at United called Paul Pogba, a French CM. He had him in the reserves and gave him 3 appearances in the first team before he got fed up of Park and Rafael playing in midfield and moved onto Juventus.

He's been at Juventus and has been one of the highest rates CMs in Europe. He's even been in the french squad too.

What is your point exactly, players leave teams, come good and then are sometimes brought back for inflated prices or move to other teams. It happens to all the teams and managers in Europe. People using this to batter Moyes have a very weak arguement.

 

[Blasphemy]

Moyes apparently is very religious and a devout Christian. Maybe that'll make him unpopular with our evolution folks?

Not all religious people are creationist nut jobs

 

[MrMarcello]

This is how I imagine the half-time talk with Moyes as the deaf coach and Giggs as Van Wilder.

 

[fishfingers15]

Nah, Klopp is as well. We're happy to overlook it.

Not all religious people are creationist nut jobs

FFS

 

[Ekeke]

Something Interesting, SAF had a young lad at United called Paul Pogba, a French CM. He had him in the reserves and gave him 3 appearances in the first team before he got fed up of Park and Rafael playing in midfield and moved onto Juventus.

He's been at Juventus and has been one of the highest rates CMs in Europe. He's even been in the french squad too.

What is your point exactly, players leave teams, come good and then are sometimes brought back for inflated prices or move to other teams. It happens to all the teams and managers in Europe. People using this to batter Moyes have a very weak arguement.

Sir Alex rated Pogba highly, trying to keep him at the club. Nothing like willingly let a player go after not giving him a single game. Whats your point exactly?

 

[TheGame]

Sir Alex rated Pogba highly, trying to keep him at the club. Nothing like willingly let a player go after not giving him a single game. Whats your point exactly?

Yeah he tried by giving him 3 first team appearances! Anyway thats another discussion. My point is summed up in my original post. You seem to be implying that because Moyes let one player go who has made his name elsewhere, he hasn't got the ability to judge other players whereas there could have been a number of other reasons why the player went. Everton were well stocked at CB whereas we were struggling at CM. This happens at the number of clubs e.g Pogba so using it to criticise Moyes is weak at best.

 

[Smores]

If we finish with 72pts is that as bad as is being made out? If you accept the premise we are in transition which apart from attackers id say we are then we've fared worse before, difference is this a much stronger league than back in 03, 04, 05.

Its not good but its not Djemba-Djemba bad.

 

[Empire]

If we finish with 72pts is that as bad as is being made out? If you accept the premise we are in transition which apart from attackers id say we are then we've fared worse before, difference is this a much stronger league than back in 03, 04, 05.

Its not good but its not Djemba-Djemba bad.

No, Moyes would get at least 10 more points next season one would think after learning from and correcting his many mistakes and signing players in key positions.

I would think he could very well be in the title race therefore if he finished on 72 points it really isn't that bad. He has to do it though so we can better discuss this at the end of the season.

He would also have the best away record if he manages to beat Everton and Southampton away suggesting he is not out of his depth and he is actually very good when required to defend solidly and hit on the counter. He could bring experience onto his coaching staff to better break down teams at Old Trafford who are content with a draw and so implement a counter attacking strategy of their own.

Also if he did finish on 72 points he would have won 10 of his last 12 premier league games.

 

[Kaos]

If we finish with 72pts is that as bad as is being made out? If you accept the premise we are in transition which apart from attackers id say we are then we've fared worse before, difference is this a much stronger league than back in 03, 04, 05.

Its not good but its not Djemba-Djemba bad.

No its bad. It'll still be our lowest finish ever in the PL, and we'd have accumulated a whooping 5 points from the top 4 teams (4 of which come from Arsenal). This is in spite of spending 65million to boost a title winning squad.

So yes its very bad. To say otherwise is Moyesitis.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

If we finish with 72pts is that as bad as is being made out? If you accept the premise we are in transition which apart from attackers id say we are then we've fared worse before, difference is this a much stronger league than back in 03, 04, 05.

Its not good but its not Djemba-Djemba bad.

Point totals can only be judged in contrast to other sides really. If we finish seventh, it is a disaster of a season.

 

[Sarni]

If we finish with 72pts is that as bad as is being made out? If you accept the premise we are in transition which apart from attackers id say we are then we've fared worse before, difference is this a much stronger league than back in 03, 04, 05.

Its not good but its not Djemba-Djemba bad.

It is Djemba-Djemba bad. Around 03-05 when we had players like Miller, Djemba or Bellion we actually managed to finish top 4 comfortably.

We won't finish on 72 points anyway. 67-69 most likely. It's what you'd expect Spurs to get, not United.

 

[Kakeru]

Point totals can only be judged in contrast to other sides really. If we finish seventh, it is a disaster of a season.

This. Regardless of how many points we get, the only thing that matters is the final position in the standings.

 

[Sarni]

Funny how Liverpool are apparently winning the league only because it's poor and we only won the league last season because all the other teams were crap, yet somehow when it comes to judging Moyes' season our low position can be put down to the league actually being amazing.

 

[Smores]

Point totals can only be judged in contrast to other sides really. If we finish seventh, it is a disaster of a season.

I agree it has been a disaster. I've been trying to get my head round the points/position thing since people said Moyes 4th was everyone else being bad. I think our transition teams around then were fortunate for the same reason. There's a lot of competition this season and a lot of other seasons we'd have finished 4th.

Not really good enough for a United manager of course, just don't think its as bad as made oft made out.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

I agree it has been a disaster. I've been trying to get my head round the points/position thing since people said Moyes 4th was everyone else being bad. I think our transition teams around then were fortunate for the same reason. There's a lot of competition this season and a lot of other seasons we'd have finished 4th.

Not really good enough for a United manager of course, just don't think its as bad as made oft made out.

We've become significantly weaker, Chelsea, City, and Arsenal have remained at the same level, Tottenham have become weaker, Liverpool and Everton have improved.

 

[Smores]

Funny how Liverpool are apparently winning the league only because it's poor and we only won the league last season because all the other teams were crap, yet somehow when it comes to judging Moyes' season our low position can be put down to the league actually being amazing.

I'm guessing that general statement is aimed at me. I've said no such thing and think Liverpool have been sickenly excellent. I don't think many seasons have been as strong as this the top half is very good.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Also if he did finish on 72 points he would have won 10 of his last 12 premier league games.

Is that a sign of progress though? Everton under Moyes used to do the same thing year after year- they would finish the season very strongly when all the pressure was off and there was nothing left to play for.

 

[Sarni]

I'm guessing that general statement is aimed at me. I've said no such thing and think Liverpool have been sickenly excellent. I don't think many seasons have been as strong as this the top half is very good.

No, it wasn't aimed at you particularly. We're the worst of the bunch though and we shouldn't really be, no matter how much Chelsea, City and Liverpool have improved (Arsenal have basically stayed the same IMO). Our record against top sides is abysmal and it's not just our points total but the football we've played that leaves a lot to desire. All in all it's been a joke of a season.

 

[Sarni]

Is that a sign of progress though? Everton under Moyes used to do the same thing year after year- they would finish the season very strongly when all the pressure was off and there was nothing left to play for.

Weren't we on like 38 points after first 19 games? Which would mean that regardless if we win the next 5 games or not we'd be worse off than our half season course.

 

[stevoc]

If we finish with 72pts is that as bad as is being made out? If you accept the premise we are in transition which apart from attackers id say we are then we've fared worse before, difference is this a much stronger league than back in 03, 04, 05.

Its not good but its not Djemba-Djemba bad.

We would have to win all our remaining games to finish on 72pts, considering our form i wouldn't risk £10 on that happening personally.