Two words - Denis Stracqualursi.
He made some good signings - but he made a fair few bad ones as well (as do all managers).
Moyes So Far!
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Two words - Denis Stracqualursi.
He made some good signings - but he made a fair few bad ones as well (as do all managers).
Signed on a season long loan as a squad player, and then sent back to Argentina when it was shown he didn't have what it takes. What is this supposed to prove?
I don't have an agenda... my point was, and still is, that only one of those players you mentioned went on to actually play continually & succesfully at a higher level then Everton. Even if I concede Lescott, that's still only 2.
Am I wrong?
None of those players are tier 1 (Messi, Ronaldo, Iniesta, Xavi), 2 (Silva, Toure, Ferdinand, Rooney, Villa) or 3 (Gundogan, Kroos, Muller) level players.
The best player he's ever bought was probably Leighton Baines, who's a good left back, but nowhere near world class.
Lescott pretty clearly demonstrated he wasn't anywhere near good enough for a higher level when he's been dropped by England and is being Demichellis in the pecking order for City.
That is incredibly harsh on Lallana, I think he's a classy player and would be a big asset to us. The closest I've yet seen to being the next Paul Scholes.
Adam Johnson won a league title with City. Ashley Young was also wanted by Liverpool from what I gather. I guess that means they too were that good?
Arsenal have had some of the worst signings when it comes to defenders and strikers. Their current predicament is very much like ours with our midfield.
Baines and Coleman are two players who are actually up there with the best in the PL and I will give you that. Point is that he did find some good players, many of whom have found their level with Everton, which is not a bad thing in itself. But so far all we have heard is him going after the megastars, which does not require any sort scouting. I can do that if that is what it means to scout for us.
Moyes has not unearthed too many gems who have gone on to the big boys and actually been top dogs there. The likes of West Ham and Southampton have had much better success with that. So we would have been better getting their scouts and someone from their academy to help us rather than Moyes.
I don't have an agenda... my point was, and still is, that only one of those players you mentioned went on to actually play continually & succesfully at a higher level then Everton. Even if I concede Lescott, that's still only 2.
Am I wrong?
Your original question (which you answered yourself) was:
Three of the players mentioned joined clubs in the Champions League, and at least three others have attracted bids from clubs in the Champions League.
So that's 6 of them - 6! - who either did go on to a higher level, or who would have if Everton had decided to sell.
Three? Lescott and Arteta is two?
And it's not six... it's two... two have gone on to a higher level "succesfully" (though I still doubt the apparent success of Lescott - who was never a great defender, even when winning the league at City).
Saying that three "might" have done, is worthless... ultimately, if these clubs had really wanted said players, they'd have gone all out for them... and even if they had gone, how do you know how good they'd have been? Could have been another Pienaar and had to go back to Everton for all we know... for instance, I don't think Cahill would ever have gone beyond what he was for Everton.
I think Baines is a very good left-back, but he's not a patch on say Ashley Cole or Evra were in their primes. Coleman could become a great one, but it's only been one season, before this year he'd been impressive, but nothing like to the standard he's showing this year.....
Scott Sinclair has joined a club in the Champions League. Victor Moses has joined a club in the Champions League. It doesn't mean anything.
Moyes has shown that he has a good eye for a solid PL level pro and a good deal.
He's definitely not shown that he can spot really special talent like Wenger has done for example.
Moyes was in for Mikel Essien when he was still at Bastia, but didn't have the money to complete deal. He wanted Di Maria when Di Maria was a relative unknown outside of Benfica. So there's two examples of him being in for 'top players', only to be thwarted by Everton's relative lack of resources.
Thank you! I knew I should have dug some more before mentioning Adam Johnson!
But that's a very good gist of what I wanted to say. The talent he spots are fine for the level they wanted to attain and maintain. For United, he is only going for players he already knows or superstars. Neither of which fills me with confidence regarding his ability to unearth the next superstars for peanuts.
Everyone is in for everyone if you believe stuff like that, just like Wenger wanted Messi and Ronaldo. Means feck all if you don't complete the deal.
He was also a big fan of Thiagio wasn't he? What happened there? He could have said he was after all big players before they became household names. He can only be judged on who he has signed not on who he was allegedly after.
We were in for Essien and Mikel. Mikel was voted the second best player in the same youth tournament which Messi played in. That is not unearthing a gem!
Di Maria was such a huge talent that we were supposed to be considering a swap deal for him with Nani. He then went to RM right after Benfica. I don't understand how you can call him unknown? An unknown is Hernandez who was not known before he got him. Unknown could be the Da Silva twins when both ourselves and Arsenal went after them. Even Coleman is a far better example than any you have mentioned.
The third is Pienaar, who joined Spurs when Spurs were in the Champions League (Chelsea also had a bid accepted, but Pienaar decided to join Spurs).
I don't think it's 'worthless' at all, if the argument is that these players weren't good enough to play at a level above Everton. The fact Champions League clubs bid for them demonstrates that they were considered good enough by the managers of those clubs.
And 6 of the players I mentioned either joined or were bid for by Champions League clubs.
That's an excellent record, given the money paid for them.
Im counting down the days and checking here, Twitter, the dailys with the vain hope of:
"Manchster United and David Moyes have come to an agreement that will see Moyes leaving the side of immediate effect on mutual consent", Ryan Giggs will take over as interim manager until the end of the season with the view to bring Louis Van Gaal in after the summer with Ryan Giggs staying on as assistant to the head coach and Frank De Boer coming in as assistant manager"
Surely its a matter of time, please tell me he is basically seeing out the rest of the season with the knowledge he is gone.
"Manchster United and David Moyes have come to an agreement that will see Moyes leaving the side of immediate effect on mutual consent", Ryan Giggs will take over as interim manager until the end of the season with the view to bring Louis Van Gaal in after the summer with Ryan Giggs staying on as assistant to the head coach and Frank De Boer coming in as assistant manager"
Surely its a matter of time, please tell me he is basically seeing out the rest of the season with the knowledge he is gone.
Not the best example really - considering he wasn't deemed good enough for Spurs(!) and had to go straight back to Everton... if anything, that just proves my point.
Being "considered" good enough, and actually being good enough are two entirely seperate things (see: Fellaini so far). As I said, if any of these clubs truly rated these players they'd have broken the bank for them. And also, a Daily Mail report saying that Wenger has Cahill on his radar is probably the very definition of worthless....
Like Veron flopping at United proves he wasn't good enough for our level? Sometimes it doesn't work out for players at certain clubs. But if two Champions League clubs are bidding for you, then it's probably because you're good enough to play in the Champions League
That's just a non-sequitur.
How about the horses mouth then? Arsene Wenger on Tim Cahill:
http://espnfc.com/news/story?id=613882&sec=automation&cc=5739
No it doesn't... not even remotely. Generally speaking... playing well in the Champions League means you're good enough to play in the Champions League.
It's not though is it? If clubs really want a player, they go all out and we get lengthy transfer sagas... I don't recall there being such "transfer sagas" for any of these players, other then Baines, and that was this season.
Arsene Wenger has probably said nice things about many, many footballers... and I don't doubt that he probably liked Cahill and was probably interested in him at some point... but again, he never went all out to bring him to Arsenal did he? And frankly, Tim Cahill wasn't good enough with the ball at his feet to play for Arsenal in my honest opinion.
I still can't believe how we a) ended up with this turd & b) the turd is still here, stinking the place out
To review then - and these are the facts - of the players I listed:
£1.5m man Tim Cahill was heavily linked with Arsenal in 2009. But okay, he never joined, so we'll leave that one out of it (he was still a superb signing anyway, for the money).
£2m man Mikel Arteta joined Champions League Arsenal for £10m, and is a regular in their midfield.
£2m man Steven Pienaar joined Spurs when they were in the Champions League, and had the option to join Chelsea (Everton confirmed they'd accepted a bid from Chelsea).
£60k man Seamus Coleman remains at Everton, but has been heavily linked with Champions League clubs, and given his form, it's unlikely that it's all just paper talk.
Everton rejected a £10m bid for £4m man Phil Jagielka from Arsenal (confirmed by the BBC).
£5m man Joleon Lescott joined City for £25m, and played 31 league games - that is, was a regular - in their title winning season.
£6m man Leighton Baines remains at Everton, but has been heavily linked with Champions League clubs, and given his form, it's unlikely that it's all just paper talk.
John Stones is still too young to judge, but the critics are raving about him.
So the original claim - that Moyes only signed a single player (Arteta) who is good enough for a higher level - is in my opinion demonstrable nonsense.
And the only reason people are refusing to accept that is because it would entail giving David Moyes a shred of credit, something which they are absolutely refusing to do (at least beyond damning him with faint praise).
£1.5m man Tim Cahill was heavily linked with Arsenal in 2009. But okay, he never joined, so we'll leave that one out of it (he was still a superb signing anyway, for the money).
£2m man Mikel Arteta joined Champions League Arsenal for £10m, and is a regular in their midfield.
£2m man Steven Pienaar joined Spurs when they were in the Champions League, and had the option to join Chelsea (Everton confirmed they'd accepted a bid from Chelsea).
£60k man Seamus Coleman remains at Everton, but has been heavily linked with Champions League clubs, and given his form, it's unlikely that it's all just paper talk.
Everton rejected a £10m bid for £4m man Phil Jagielka from Arsenal (confirmed by the BBC).
£5m man Joleon Lescott joined City for £25m, and played 31 league games - that is, was a regular - in their title winning season.
£6m man Leighton Baines remains at Everton, but has been heavily linked with Champions League clubs, and given his form, it's unlikely that it's all just paper talk.
John Stones is still too young to judge, but the critics are raving about him.
So the original claim - that Moyes only signed a single player (Arteta) who is good enough for a higher level - is in my opinion demonstrable nonsense.
And the only reason people are refusing to accept that is because it would entail giving David Moyes a shred of credit, something which they are absolutely refusing to do (at least beyond damning him with faint praise).
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He could sign all the worlds best players for United and still have us playing long ball. He's fecking clueless when it comes to actually playing the game.
Shithead of a man
We average less long balls per game this season than Everton, and the same amount as Chelsea.
But ultimately it's the results that matter of course, and they've not been good enough.
Don't see why there's any need to denigrate him as a person either. It just comes across as spoilt and petty.
Nothing spoilt or petty about it. I dont like him, cant understand how anyone can back him. He isnt good enough to manage United - we had enough top quality coaches to take this position when Fergie retired. We probably picked the worst possible one.
You forgot £27.5m Maroune Fellaini (available for £23m, which would have also been a rip off)
There are some respectable names on that list but none that would really excite you as a United fan. Ignoring Stones for the time being as he is just starting out, only Baines and Coleman strike me as players who you might want as part of a team gearing up for assaults on the premier league and champions league, and even those two have yet be be fully tested at that elevated level.
I am not trying to belittle Moyes's ability to pick up talent but to query to what extent those budget buys tell you anything worthwhile about his ability to replenish a squad aspiring to compete at United's level. In fact, his record when he has been allowed to spend a bit more is decidedly mixed - at United, with Fellaini and, at Everton, with the succession of striker flops (Beattie, Johnson) and the Russian guy who was completely useless. Granted Mata was a good player but buying Chelsea's two time player of the year for a club record fee is not exactly uncovering a hidden gem. All in all, it reinforces the impression of a very capable premier league manager but one who will have to substantially re-invent himself to succeed at United. And I really doubt that is possible based both on his age and the evidence of the last 9 months.
Baines wasnt an unknown either, he had been outstanding for Wigan for two seasons and was under offer from another club before Moyes bought him.
One of the Sheffield clubs I believe.
Piennar played 10 times for spuds before being kicked out after half a season, he is also not a particularly great player.
One of the Sheffield clubs I believe.
Piennar played 10 times for spuds before being kicked out after half a season, he is also not a particularly great player.
The unknown Di Maria who went for 30m to Madrid?
What's the name of that Spanish guy we signed in January? Moyes has really unearthed a star...
I was trying to find a good analogy for my wife of how boring, predictable and repetitive Moyes had turned united.
Ill show her the last 3 pages of this thread....
Ill show her the last 3 pages of this thread....
Can you bite him?
Hehe
Carlos Queiroz is the only bloke who can save david moyes....he knows the club inside out and knows the type of players we would need for more modern systems.....everyman and his dog can see that david moyes is a footballing dinosaur and we could have appointed george graham or giovani trappatoni and their man utd style and tactics would have looked no worse then the shit on a stick that moyes has been giving us....moyes is a workaholic and a decent talent spotter so by bringing in someone like carlos would give us the techical and tactical expertise that we so badly need in the background.....if moyes doesn't bring in a new number 2 like carlos over the summer then in fairness he should be de-capitated in front of cheering crowds in manchester city center....please save us Carlos
Alternatively let's just sack him and appoint a better manager and save the club.
if you love her...don't do it
No, she must share my pain.if you love her...don't do it
then prepare yourself for the consequences....don't be surprised if tomorrow she wakes up believing some end of the world theory...
. The pessimism over here can be very contagious..Unfortunately we can do nothing about it. If we think that we're getting the likes of Fabregas without offering them shitloads of money or/and at least a chance to win the CL then we are deluded at best.
Don't find a good analogy or any United footage. Just show her this and say our football is as exciting as this:
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