ha, didn't know that one.
Moyes So Far!
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ha, didn't know that one.
I like to think there was a long sweet spot in the middle of SAF's reign where we'd moved past the personal contacts situation of the early 90s but hadn't reached the Henderson has an odd GAIT/Bebe/signing Young to bring us back to Barcelona's level crazyness of his last few years.
We're going in circles here but - as has already been pointed out - the value of a good scouting network is the quality of the assessment provided to the manager when it comes to making decisions about signing a player, not just finding out about the player in the first place.
The Spearing/Flanagan comment is also interesting, with hindsight.
Easy to criticise, though. Predicting the future careers of young footballers is incredibly difficult. Annoying we let Henderson slip through our fingers (playing in a position where we badly needed new blood) at around the same time it was decided that Ashley Young was a good signing but c'est la vie.
Oh well, there's time yet for him to be proven right.
Suppose so but he's already given Liverpool two years of excellent service and he's still only 23. Just seems like a strange comment. More like looking at race horse than a footballer. Like I said, un-scientific.
We will. Moyes will be out on his arse in one month.
But despite apparently lacking that detail before (we have no way of knowing if we were, but that's the assumption you have to make if we're to believe the changes Moyes made) Moyes was no better in the market at Everton than Fergie was at United, taking into account budget etc... In all his years at Everton with access to such detailed scouting he never once came even close to signing a tier 1 talent or even a tier 2 or 3 talent. He continuously just signed the best mid 20's players from relegated clubs or players on the fringes of the United side who wanted to be first team. I guess after all that detailed analysis, those players always come out the best?
And before you mention budgets, there's been countless examples of elite level players moving for next to nothing all the time. David Villa, Diego Costa, Lewandowski, Vidal, Vidic, Evra, Van Persie, Hyypia, Kolo Toure and countless others. A lot of those players weren't neccessarily extremely obscure but they were mediocre players knocking around at mid level clubs who've since proved they have a far higher ceiling than first thought. Surely those are the players that an advanced detailed scouting program should be able to find? Yet Moyes never found anyone close to that level, or even the level below.
Then we have his two United signings. Despite such detailed preparation before signing players we signed Fellaini (who most likely isn't good enough) for over his buyout clause at nearly £30m and spent £47m on Chelsea's best player who plays in the same position as Moyes's wants to play our best player. Where is the detailed preparation there?
Apparently so.
But Ferguson never said that Henderson wasn't a good player. Just that he thought his body would break down sooner because of the way he runs.
FWIW I think the Henderson signing is an example of our scouting system working well, he's had one very good season but for the money Liverpool spent and the injury concerns we had with him it was probably prudent to look elsewhere. The failure was not bringing in a midfielder of any description, not necessarily going after Henderson.
Been a theme in recent weeks but I'm finding myself defending the indefensible. Since Moyes joined United he's done literally nothing that I have been impressed by, at any level. Goes without saying the summer transfer window was an utter fiasco and signing Mata is incredibly hard to understand when we apparently turned down Ozil because we already had too many number 10s.
My only reason for posting in this thread today is because I think Moyes' record at Everton does clearly reflect some quality scouting. It's inevitable when you're successfully running a club on a shoe-string budget. Obviously, there's a completely different approach when it comes to the scouting/transfer strategy at a club like United and I'm certainly not going to start arguing that his approach will definitely be transferable. It probably won't. Which is yet another reason to be worried about Moyes staying at the club.
Of course it does, I’m not saying he was terrible in the transfer market, but he isn’t the genius he’s made out to be either. I would rate Wenger in that category, some of the signings he has made have turned into real stars that have not only won trophies, but have been consistently in the top 4.
Let’s be honest here, Moyes had done a good job at Everton, he kept his net spent relatively low thanks to getting a good price for some of their star players that they have sold on. If truth be told, he hit his ceiling at Everton, he was comfortable and didn’t want to take to many risks. His transfer dealing to date at United are 50/50, and that’s being generous after the summer fiasco.
Not saying that Fergie was infallible. Just pointing out how he liked to work.
The lies in this thread irk me. The board won't be that blinkered.
Nah, he's here to stay. Results are secondary, Moyes is our project.
Thanks for the update. I love reading this blog on a weekly basis.
I can understand the man's hesitation about Van Gaal, but we really do need some swagger back. Why that emphasis on humility when it comes to United? I don't know and I couldn't care less as long as he delivers.
Abit harsh, considering that Wenger had more money to play with, and a bigger club behind him.
Say they both wanted to sign Kolo Toure or Gilberto - Moyes stands no chance really.
It's debatable if he even really have access to the best 'unknowns'.
Not really, since Arsenal last won the title I'd say they have one of the lowest net spends out of the current top 7, They've also had to sell their top players more or less every season.
I'm not having a go at Moyes, hes done a good job at Everton, I'm just bringing a bit of realism to his transfer dealings.
That's the point though. The board will expect we are because they want lucrative sponsorship deals and they want leverage at the negotiating table therefore if we are not title challengers then Moyes will be gone, if he isn't at the end of the season.
I thought that was quite the opposite. He said his physios noticed the fact that Henderson has an awkward gait and runs through his knees which can lead to knee trouble in the future so they decided to steer clear. It remains to be seen if he is right but if it was a nagging doubt for Fergie you can understand why he didn't look to spend £17m on him.
For example, over the last 10 seasons Dortmund have a net spend on transfers of -£6.5m according to my calculations and built what they did!
Dortmund are a more reputable club with champions league football to offer and they have the pick of youngsters from a country producing them in abundance. However what they have done is incredible, if there is a bench mark for being great in the market it's probably those guys over there. Everton have spent (net) during Moyes final 10 seasons £8.6m therefore although one could argue he has done well, I wouldn't say he has done great considering he has not even consistently been involved in the race for top four.
Never mind top 4, hes never won a trophy.
Aye, how can noticing his gait be considered "unscientific", it's the exact (well not exactly but in the context it's being used here) opposite. He didn't say he didn't sign him because he was born under a ladder with a passing black cat on the 13th during a full moon.
It was thought his gait might cause injury issues later on, so he passed it up. To dismiss that as 'unscientific' is crap.
It's a great blog, very meticulous with its analysis of our season too.
I can understand the apprehension regarding Van Gaal, but the blog author suggested Klopp as a replacement, though I'd hardly call him a realistic, attainable target considering his loyalty and contract situation. If the sole choice was between keeping Moyes for another season or hiring Van Gaal, I'd wager most sane fans would opt for the latter, despite his eccentricities.
Yet he sanctioned an even bigger fee to sign Owen Hargreaves. Someone who had only once made more than 40 appearances in any season in his entire career to date (24 and 17 in the two seasons before we signed him).
Jordan Henderson made 38 appearances in his debut season for Sunderland (09/10) and is on track for 40+ in every single season since then. If his dodgy gait is harming his knees, they're taking a long fecking time to show any signs of it.
As per my follow up post, it's easy to be wise after the fact but that really stood out as a big decision based on not very much. There has to have been better ways of analysing his likelihood of being injury prone in the future. The fact he consistently runs huge distances and rarely gets injured would be a good starting point. The contrast with players like Hargreaves and Saha is huge.
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He signed Tim Cahill for £1.5m when, according to Souness, most other Premiership managers weren't sure if his game would hold up at the highest level. Moyes took the gamble, and at his peak, Cahill was easily a £15m player.
He signed Mikel Arteta for £2m. Arteta wasn't really an unknown, having already had a spell with Glasgow Rangers. But his career was going nowhere fast at Real Sociedad. Moyes brought him to the Premiership, and he became at his peak one of the classiest midfielders in the league (especially pre-cruciate ligament injury). Sold on for £10m to CL regulars Arsenal.
He signed Steven Pienaar from Borussia Dortmund for £2m. Pienaar was another who was highly rated as a youngster at Ajax, but who's career had begun to drift. But he's since played over 200 games for Everton, putting in some excellent performances, and was worth every penny Moyes paid for him, and more.
He signed Seamus Coleman for £60k from Sligo Rovers. Coleman is now widely regarded as one of the best full backs in the league. Enough said on that one.
And while Jagielka wasn't exactly an unknown, it was Moyes who took the gamble on him at £4m. He has again played 200+ games for the club, as well as becoming a regular England international.
He signed Joleon Lescott for £5m, when others were worried about the state of Lescott's knees. He was superb for Everton at both left back and centre back, became an England international, and then got sold on for £25m.
He signed Leighton Baines for £6m. Not exactly peanuts, but he did become arguably the best left back in the league under Moyes, an England international, and is now worth much more.
He signed young John Stones for £3m, who is now making waves in the Everton defence, and being talked about as a future England international, if not captain.
And so on. These are probably Moyes' biggest transfer hits, and they're all players who were signed for small-ish amounts, and who went on to be worth much more than the initial outlay.
So Moyes *was* actually a bit of a magician in the transfer market, all said and done.
Maybe the old goat isn't incapable of learning from his mistakes. Once bitten twice shy. He was terrified of buying another midfield crock and as a result he was being incredibly through.
That's a fair point. Henderson wasn't a crock though. His injury record was excellent.
I don't even know what he means anyway. How the feck does anyone run without engaging their hips? I don't think I could run "from the knees" if I tried! And since when is a straight back a bad thing in a runner? Just seems like a really odd observation to get hung up on, when you're considering a new signing.
Anyway, this is getting very off-topic, so happy to agree to disagree.
My problem with thishas been... how many of these players have gone onto a level that is above Everton? One... Arteta.
Other than that, all Moyes' signings have basically been good signings for the level of Everton, which is not a criticsm - as that is his job... but, it doesn't really enable them to push beyond the level that they remained at for the majority of his time there.
In all honesty I think it was just his way if getting under the skin of that club a bit. He loves having a sly pop and watching the feathers fly.
Lescott won a league title with Man City. Arsenal have wanted both Jagielka and Cahill in the past. Baines was heavily linked with Bayern and United (even before Moyes took over). The 'bigger' clubs are currently all over Seamus Coleman. Pienaar joined Spurs when they were in the CL. Etc.
So I think that 'not a criticism' is slightly unfair.
None of that has anything at all to do with the point I was making.
There is that, too!
I would say it disproves your claim that Moyes has never signed a 'tier 1, 2 or 3 talent', and that he only ever went for relegated Premiership players and United cast-offs. Because that's frankly nonsense.
Lescott has proven that he is - in fact - not of the quality to play at the top level, which is why he barely plays for City... so that's a bit void.
"Wanting" a player and actually going out to buy them are two different things... Everton are a selling club, and, I suspect, would have sold either of those players had Arsenal made a decent offer.
Baines is possibly the exception, though again, our interest before Moyes took over was nothing more than that. Same with Coleman, currently it's all interest, but we'll see if anyone actually puts their money where their mouths are.
Ultiamtely, that's a lot of conjecture - but the evidence so far points to none of these players breaking through the glass Everton ceiling. As I said, Arteta has... and so has Fellaini, though the less said about the second one the better.
With the reputation Moyes has as a "scout" I would expect him to sign Kagawa from Japan or Chicarito from Mexico, not well-known players who failed or made an impact in Europe's well-known leagues.
Or Coleman from LoI...
Of course he going to have a number of players who were successful, he was at the club for 10 years FFS. No one is saying that hes been bad in the transfer market, just that hes not the genius that hes made out to be by some.
Hes also had a high number of flops (like every other team) hes also never built a successful team, hes never won a trophy with his signings, hes never maintained a level of competitive with any of his squads.
They've won a single title since the Oil money started pouring in, and Lescott played in 31 of those games. He was a key part of a league winning defense, so it's not 'void' at all.
The point is that they were still wanted by a club 'at a higher level'. See here and here. If Arsenal decided not to pay what Everton were demanding, then okay, but you can't say it's because they weren't ultimately considered good enough for that level. Wenger wouldn't have bid for them if he didn't think they were up to it.
I think i've conclusively proved that numerous Everton players signed by Moyes either went to or are/were wanted by clubs at a 'higher level'. You simply aren't going to have it though, because it doesn't fit your agenda.
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