This has been completely missed as well.
How bad...I mean, how comical have spurs been this year? And they have done bet than us. .. Even beating us at home.
For the record I think we'll finish above them now, just
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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How bad...I mean, how comical have spurs been this year? And they have done bet than us. .. Even beating us at home.
For the record I think we'll finish above them now, just
If it meant getting rid I'd not mind us losing every game from now until end of the season. I hate myself for saying that too.
Same here, but only of it means he's sacked.
What's worst about him is that I get the feeling that he thinks there's nothing wrong with the job he's done and anyone would have the same problems.
I also have this awful picture of him celebrating a top 4 finish like mad next season and it bothers me very much. There's absolutely no chance that a club like United should ever aim to be 4th and I can definitely see him being extremely proud of himself, proclaiming himself an Old Trafford hero, if we just finish 4th next season, that's how our standards have slipped. It's not even the fact that we're 7th now that's the worst part of it, it's that we will no longer be a team aiming to win competitions under Moyes - we'll be a team that wants to be as hard to beat as possible and do fine.
I also have this awful picture of him celebrating a top 4 finish like mad next season and it bothers me very much. There's absolutely no chance that a club like United should ever aim to be 4th and I can definitely see him being extremely proud of himself, proclaiming himself an Old Trafford hero, if we just finish 4th next season, that's how our standards have slipped. It's not even the fact that we're 7th now that's the worst part of it, it's that we will no longer be a team aiming to win competitions under Moyes - we'll be a team that wants to be as hard to beat as possible and do fine.
The glazers will expect more, they will be under pressure from commercial sponsors to perform. They will expect a title challenge so if he struggles again but scrapes top four, he will be too big of a risk to be allowed to continue.
People watch winners, people follow winners, people talk about winners. I doubt commercial sponsors want to be paying a premium to be sponsoring the next Arsenal.
He's spent £68m (or there abouts) but if you include the figure we paid for Zaha only for Moyes not to give him a chance, you could bump that up to £80m+ in terms of cost, even though he didn't sign him. He was presented with a new £15m player and wasn't even arsed to see what he could do.
All the top managers in the game were chasing Zaha. Moyes, of course, knew better. He probably didn't smash his bleep-test so could never be considered a Manchester United player.
All the top managers in the game were chasing Zaha. Moyes, of course, knew better. He probably didn't smash his bleep-test so could never be considered a Manchester United player.
There's absolutely no way in hell we'll be title challengers next year though and we all know it. It won't even be in Moyes' mind, he's a mid-table manager and he'll try as hard as possible to be 4th after spending £120m to improve this awful squad of fecking players who don't even try.
Tim Sherwood turns up to work in a colourful wig and when he stops the wheels fall off his car and the bonnet explodes, showering glitter all over the car park. And he STILL tactically out-smarted Moyes.
The worst thing is that after spending £ 100 m we probably won't even end up with the likes of Carvalho or Koke, but rather with more Fellainis or a Lallana at best. He will go for "premier league" proven (and that despite his apparently extremley modern scouting methods) and wouldn't know at all how to use the likes of Koke (not that Koke would come anyway). But assuming we are in a dreamland and he comes, Moyes will probably use him as an out and out winger (just because he starts on the wing for Atletico at times) or even as Rafael's replacement because he played right back once or twice! I am sure he went on Transfermarkt before we bought Mata and was overhelmed about the amount of goals and assists Mata had for Chelsea, so he bought him, without thinking how to use him. Same with Fellaini, we have wasted £ 27,5 mil and all Moyes comes out with is his superb chest control and that he will score goals soon enough! So we bought him for his goal scoring ability?
I am more worried about our board and the lack of modern footballing ppl in it as very much must be wrong with them if they can't see things like these and decide to give him the rumoured warchest to waste.
I am more worried about our board and the lack of modern footballing ppl in it as very much must be wrong with them if they can't see things like these and decide to give him the rumoured warchest to waste.
Well he can't do any worse can he? Even if he does do better and gets say top four. Since when is top four good enough?
For Moyes it'd be the best day of his life if we finished 4th, or second best behind winning Community Shield against Wigan.
Give me Lallana over Young or Valencia any day.
That's the problem: our standards and expectations have gotten so low that people would settle for players who will never be world class potential at the very least. <_<
Well, then there are a lot of players we would prefer over Young or Valencia! But that doesn't mean much, does it? And to be honest, I don't even think we will get him as Young's or Valencia's replacement, but rather as Nani's or Kagawa's and you can quote me on that. IF we get Lallana, then Young and Valencia will still be here and at least one of Nani/Kagawa will be out.
If it was a like for like replacement and we brought in a quality player for the first team I would say yes.
The trouble is, it won't be. It'll be what Moyes will consider an upgrade and Young and Valencia will stay as backups and we will be no better off. In fact we'll be £25m worse off with no improvement.
He's a better manager than he's showing here, I think it's just quite clear the step up was too big for him, is all. From eleven years at Everton to the 2nd biggest club in the world is just an enormous ask for anyone, but I agree if he went to a club somewhere in between the two (which should really have been his next step) he'd be likely to succeed there and get them delivering. Sadly for him he'll probably have to start all over again after the shambles here.
How many points did Everton get last season? Are we on course to beat that?
63. Still a a couple of wins needed to match it.
This always makes me laugh about Moyes's defenders as well. I've no idea where the idea he's a genius at finding players no one has heard of with his "advanced scouting methods" comes from.
For example, this is a list of his top 20 signings at Everton.
20. John Heitinga - Established player at Ajax/Atletico.
19. John Stones - Was playing regularly in the Championship. Don't really know why he's on the list to be honest.
18. Marcus Bent - Established player
17. Bryan Oviedo - This one's fair enough, good find.
16. Andy Johnson - Established player
15. Louis Saha - Established player
14. Yakubu - Established player
13. Joseph Yobo - Established player at Marseille, already Nigerian international.
12. Kevin Mirallas - Belgium international for 5 years, top scorer in Greek league. Probably not a household name to most people but hardly plucked from nowhere either.
11. Phil Neville - Established player
10. Nigel Martyn - Established player
9. Sylvain Distan - Established player
8. Tim Howard - Established player
7. Tim Cahill - Championship player, great signing on the cheap.
6. Steven Pienaar - Established player at Ajax and Dortmund.
5. Phil Jagielka - Established player
4. Leighton Baines - Established player
3. Jolean Lescott - Established player
2. Mikel Arteta - Established player
1. Seamus Coleman - Great off the radar signing.
So out of his 20 best signings I'd say only Oviedo, Cahill, Mirallas and Coleman would count as off the radar signings for mostly obscure players. Almost all his best signings were players already playing Premier League football when they came to Everton or playing for other top European clubs. The idea that Moyes is this great finder of obscure hidden talent is absolute bollocks. He mostly seems to either rely on hand-me-downs from Man Utd or sign the best players from relegated Premiership clubs.
Jagielka wasn't so much established, he had one season in the PL with SUFC in which they got relegated.
Also Arteta, he was hardly setting the world alight in Spain. People consider Michu to be this fantastic unknown buy, he was a similar price to Arteta and scored 16 goals in La Liga the following season.
Also Arteta, he was hardly setting the world alight in Spain. People consider Michu to be this fantastic unknown buy, he was a similar price to Arteta and scored 16 goals in La Liga the following season.
The point is every football fan in the country knew him, it didn't require advanced scouting methods to pick him up.
Surely there's not many signings made by any top clubs that aren't "established" by that definition?
Fair point but I think you should give him Arteta. I'd never heard of the guy when he went to Everton, I'd assume most fans didn't have a clue who he was.
I'm not a Moyes defender btw, but scouting isn't just about finding players. In this day and age finding players isn't hard when almost every league is on TV and OPTA stats can rank players for you on the basics like goals, assists, possession, touches, etc.
What a manager is looking for is additional things, such as
- will he fit into the system we use, or will he allow us to change our system?
- how is his peak fitness?
- what's his injury record and are they likely to re-occur?
- how does he perform in easy games, medium games, hard games?
- Does her perform as well away as at home?
- How do his stats compare with what we have already? Do they make up areas we're short on, or add to what we already have?
A better judgement is whether the players that were brought in a) were successful as individuals b) fitted in to the existing style of play or helped develop the team and c) kept within a cost framework
I don't have the time, and frankly I am not sufficiently abreast of Everton's players to go through one by one & judge whether they were good buys or not. But against those criteria you could find a different result.
It proves a point that he hasn't been as successful in his scouting record as some seem to think.
He'd been Rangers's best player for two seasons prior. I definitely knew him.
It doesn't prove any point, though. The only way you can judge the success of Moyes' scouting record is by comparing Everton's spending under Moyes with their average points total.
Writing a long list of all the players he signed and deciding whether they were "established" or not tells us feck all. It's the size of the transfer fee that tells us exactly how highly rated they all were, not whether or not assorted football nerds were familiar with their careers to date.
This is what feels me with trepidation about the upcoming transfer window tbh, it's either he will buy based on reputation (big names) or he will panic when his first choice targets do not sign for us .
Any kid with an FM knows all the players! How they will fare in your team relative to the cost you buy them for is what matters when you are managing a club with constraints on spending and I think Moyes did a fairly decent job overall. His record whenever he actually got some money to spend is extremely questionable though.
I'm not criticising him for making bad signings or for signing established players. I've no problem with that whatsoever.
What I'm saying is that for some reason some people have the impression of Moyes that he's a manager who's found a load of players from nowhere and turned them into solid Premiership players when as I showed above this isn't true at all and only really Coleman and Oviedo were plucked from total obscurity.
Mostly Moyes signed players from top clubs who weren't good enough or the best players from poor/relegated PL clubs. There's nothing wrong with that approach, it worked great for him.
I'm just debunking the idea that Moyes has revolutionised the scouting network at United just like he did at Everton and that will pay dividends in future years so we should keep him around. When that's not at all what he did at Everton, he usually played it extremely safe. Just like he's done with his two signings so far at United -- both well established top players at other PL clubs.
He played for Rangers in the Champions League, didn't he?
What bothers me is him letting the heart of our team go and then only recruiting second rate players. We are going to end up like Tottenham - a bunch of strangers showing occasional good teamwork. You need a spine of a team and ours will be gone apart from De Gea.
Can't say I've read that opinion anywhere on here. Or in the press in general.
He has a reputation for building a consistently competitive team with very little money to spend. You can't do that without an excellent network of scouts.
The challenge with working on an Everton budget is that you have to have a much higher ratio of successes/flops than clubs with a bit more money to spend. As such, it stand to reason he will have taken less risks when it comes to signing players. As @bishblaize already pointed out, sometimes signing a well know but under-rated player is just as good a piece of scouting as signing some kid nobody has ever heard of. Seeing as everyone is sucking scouse cocks - with the week that's in it - do the Liverpool scouts not get any credit for the Coutinho signing? He was a very well known player, using your criteria.
I've always found it hard to believe that our scouting network wasn't good. Its not like every player we get is £25M+. Look through our squad and there a few like Hernandez or Vidic, who were hardly household names.
However I can entirely believe that it was not systematic. Fergie was probably the most connected man in football (the guy had 9 mobile phones) and his brother was one of our key scouts. I'm sure there are hundreds of people out there desperate to give Fergie a tip when they saw a good player.
In his first autobiog he mentions how Lee Sharpe came across his path because his manager at Torquay was a United fan, he just rang the club to tell them about him. Combine that with the fact that Fergie clearly had an eye for a good player. Indeed when we signed Bruce the medical found problems with his knees, but Fergie judged from his playing record that it wasn't a problem.
So when Fergie left, so did all of that stuff. Instead Moyes may (and I stress 'may' since I don't know) be trying to make it more systematic, so that he and every subsequent manager will instead be able to draw down on data to try and pick out potential buys.
The number of journalists who have mentioned that the Board is very impressed with the way Moyes has modernized our scouting system and that's why he is being given more time is amazing. Who is feeding this to the press? Was Fergie's scouting system so antiquated?
The idea he's overhauled the scouting network is thrown around all the time in the media.
Of course they get credit, just like Moyes gets credit for signing Jagielka or Distin. You don't need an amazing network of scouts that will take years to play dividends to discover these players though.
Yet he decided we shouldn't be interested in Jordan Henderson because of his gait when he runs. There's definitely something a little, for want of a better word, "un-scientific" about Fergie's approach to transfers. With a "money ball" team about to win the league, maybe it was time for our own approach to scouting and signing to have a bit of a re-vamp. No idea if Moyes is the best man to do this, though. I suspect not.
I know that. It was this sort of thing I haven't heard before:
"
a manager who's found a load of players from nowhere and turned them into solid Premiership players
"
And despite his amazing scouting network and the fact he signed our cast off's all the time he apparently came to club and knew nothing about our players by his own admission. Mental.
That's the point of an amazing scouting network no? You don't need an amazing scouting network to find Phil Jagielka, you can watch MOTD, read the Newspaper or watch him yourself when Everton play Sheffield United twice a year and judge for yourself.
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