Moyes So Far!

[Adebesi]

Have you read Moyes's post match comment about Rooney mate? He said he felt Rooney was having trouble striking the ball. In a game of Football, surely that's reason enough to sub a player?

Yes I saw that, in retrospect it was clearly what he should have done. But at the time, when I was thinking about what we should do, I was thinking of other people to take off simply because Rooney is one of those players that can make something happen. At the end of the day you have to expect Moyes to make better decisions than I would make, Im just saying I understood his reasoning.

 

[united_99]

But he was not fit. Moyes admitted that he had trouble striking the ball! So what's the point then?

 

[entropy]

Yes! if he's playing terribly. That's what managers are supposed to do. He's already admitted he wasn't fit and was struggling to even strike the ball!

Believe it or not we don't have the luxury of players like Robben or ribery or goetze on the pitch. Who would you have subbed him for? Who else is capable of creating chances like Rooney? Moyes pushed him into the midfield which enabled him to link up with kagawa or Valencia.

 

[Rado_N]

Come on, he's clearly not saying that. The point is that Moyes took a risk and it did not pay off but it is not a decision that is ridiculous wall to wall, though it may seem so right now.

That's exactly what I wanted to say.

It was a gamble which backfired. I said previously that I didn't think it was the right decision but I can see the logic behind it.

Sorry but when the manager knows that the player in question is struggling with an injury to the extent that Rooney could barely strike the ball, then it very much is ridiculous and there is no logic to keeping him on the pitch.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

So the fact that he could, quite literally, barely kick the ball is not a problem?

Jesus, Nick. What's with the hyperbole? Did I imagine him whipping in all those corners? Or did he take them with his head?

 

[Varun]

Yes I saw that, in retrospect it was clearly what he should have done. But at the time, when I was thinking about what we should do, I was thinking of other people to take off simply because Rooney is one of those players that can make something happen. At the end of the day you have to expect Moyes to make better decisions than I would make, Im just saying I understood his reasoning.

If he was fit, I'd understand the gamble. Top players can produce a moment of magic even when having a poor game. But when you admit that a player was struggling to strike the ball, its insane to keep him on the pitch. To produce any magic, he'd need to kick the ball first unless we kept him on for his aerial prowess.

 

[Getsme]

Believe it or not we don't have the luxury of players like Robben or ribery or goetze on the pitch. Who would you have subbed him for? Who else is capable of creating chances like Rooney? Moyes pushed him into the midfield which enabled him to link up with kagawa or Valencia.

You still haven't answered my question. Is Rooney now up droppable?

 

[PlayerOne]

One thing with Rooney, if we kept him for to get a goal or assist, then why was he playing in CM? Surely, we he would've played near to the goal if we wanted goals from him. We put someone who can't hit the ball in a position where he would have to shot from distance and with power. That's what I didn't understand.

 

[Rado_N]

Jesus, Nick. What's with the hyperbole? Did I imagine him whipping in all those corners? Or did he take them with his head?

They're Moyes' words, not mine, he said Rooney was struggling to strike the ball. If that's information the manager has, why is he leaving him on the pitch?

 

[entropy]

Again, is he now up droppable?

That is that even relevant to yesterday's game? Which manager would be willing to drop his best player for a crucial game like this?

 

[KM]

Sorry but when the manager knows that the player in question is struggling with an injury to the extent that Rooney could barely strike the ball, then it very much is ridiculous and there is no logic to keeping him on the pitch.

There's also no logic in subbing off your attacking and then bringing on a right back when you want to score a goal, but it worked as a game changer for Guardiola. I also do think you're overstating the poorness(is that even a word?) of Rooney's performance last night.

 

[saivet]

Rooney was running fine, taking set pieces and playing some decent balls out wide. To me Moyes is just making an excuse for Rooney's poor performance.

 

[entropy]

I haven't seen Rooney on the training to know in what condition he is.

Damn, if only you knew.

 

[El-Manos]

If that is the sum total of expectations from United fans after just one season under Moyes, we are heading down a very wrong path.

They are the best team in Europe, it would have been the same outcome last year under SAF as well I reckon. We played a lot better against Munich than we have been playing in the league, that much is a fact.

 

[Getsme]

That is that even relevant to yesterday's game? Which manager would be willing to drop his best player for a crucial game like this?

How is it not relevant? It's clear Rooney wasn't fit, Moyes admitted that Rooney wasn't fit and it stood out like a sore thumb. It may have been worth the risk to start him, but the fact he wasn't taken off was undoubtably a bad decision. Moving Kagawa into the middle, pushing Welbeck out to the left and playing Hernandez was the way to go.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

They're Moyes' words, not mine, he said Rooney was struggling to strike the ball. If that's information the manager has, why is he leaving him on the pitch?

Here's the quote:

‘At times it looked like it was a struggle striking the ball. But he is so vital a player to us. He is so important with Robin van Persie out.’

So yes, it's hyperbole to claim he could "barely kick a ball". It was obviously a problem striking the ball with certain parts of his foot but not with others. At the end of the day, he has two feet and a head though and we saw him passing/striking the ball with both feet throughout the 90 minutes. No reason at all he couldn't have scored a goal.

Moyes also made the point I just did. With RvP available he probaly wouldn't have persisted with Rooney. As it stands, though, his options were limited and it made sense to keep Rooney on the pitch. Not only for the goals he can score but for the chances he can create. He could have played the assist for Welbeck against WBA with two broken toes, for example.

 

[entropy]

You realize no one knew before the game that he'd be that poor right? People are saying he should have been subbed off when he was clearly struggling, not that he shouldnt have started.

That is a risk everyone was willing to take. None of the players we had on our bench are capable of producing what Rooney can.

 

[Jev]

XI wise, yes, squad wise, no. You can make a point that such front four of Mata, Rooney, RVP and Kagawa ( Januzaj / Welbeck ) is great front four although we all know how the partnership between Robin and Wayne has looked like recently. We need to get rid of our old wingers who are not performing ( Young, Nani, Valencia ) and then we're lacking in the squad unless we promote youth.

I don't agree with that at all.

On the left-wing, we have the following options: Welbeck, Kagawa, Nani, Januzaj, Young, Rooney.

Behind the striker, we have the following options: Rooney, Kagawa, Mata, Januzaj

On the right-wing, we have the following options: Mata, Januzaj, Nani, Valencia, Young, RvP

On top, we have the following options: RvP, Rooney, Welbeck, Hernandez

That's an absolutely outstanding selection, both in terms of the starting XI and the depth.

 

[PlayerOne]

Moyes also said:

I was concerned that Wayne had not trained all week and he had taken an injection.

Surely someone who hasn't trained all week and was struggle would find it hard to play the full 90 minutes?

 

[Getsme]

That is a risk everyone was willing to take. None of the players we had on our bench are capable of producing what Rooney can.

So we should keep him on no matter what? Even if he's injured.

 

[Varun]

There's also no logic in subbing off your attacking and then bringing on a right back when you want to score a goal, but it worked as a game changer for Guardiola. I also do think you're overstating the poorness(is that even a word?) of Rooney's performance last night.

There's logic to it if there's a plan behind it. It allowed Bayern to move Lahm to CM thus moving Kroos further up the pitch. Gave them better control of the game. Frankly, that's how I expected them to start too, was surprised to see Lahm at RB. Didnt Benitez make a similar sub in the istanbul final? Brought on a DM in Hamann, took care of Kaka and secured a famous win? Just throwing on a striker when you need a goal or a defender when you're leading isnt always the right way

That is a risk everyone was willing to take. None of the players we had on our bench are capable of producing what Rooney can.

We should have kept on Welbeck who was looking much more dangerous and brought on Hernandez for Rooney. There was no need to totally lose the middle of the pitch by playing Rooney there. As I said to KM above, more strikers on the pitch = more chances of scoring isnt always true.

 

[entropy]

How is it not relevant? It's clear Rooney wasn't fit, Moyes admitted that Rooney wasn't fit and it stood out like a sore thumb. It may have been worth the risk to start him, but the fact he wasn't taken off was undoubtably a bad decision. Moving Kagawa into the middle, pushing Welbeck out to the left and playing Hernandez was the way to go.

It is a risk which did not pay off. But to assume we would have magically scored had we subbed off Rooney is just a lazy assumption.

 

[Getsme]

It is a risk which did not pay off. But to assume we would have magically scored had we subbed off Rooney is just a lazy assumption.

Ooh FFS, you have to look at the situation as it's happening, Rooney wasn't with it last night, on several occasions he looked lost, it was clear he wasn't 100% fit. He also had a great opportunity to score and should have played Kagawa through, but fluffed his lines both times.
Nothing is certain in football, but by refusing to take the bigger risk and playing it safe with Rooney may have cost us the game, we will never know.
It doesn't matter who you are, if you're playing with an injury and are having no influence on the game, then you should be subbed.

 

[Mockney]

Believe it or not we don't have the luxury of players like Robben or ribery or goetze on the pitch. Who would you have subbed him for? Who else is capable of creating chances like Rooney? Moyes pushed him into the midfield which enabled him to link up with kagawa or Valencia.

I'd have brought Hernandez on for Rooney and not Welbeck for starters, who was playing well, but there was also Giggs to still consider if you wanted creativity in midfield, who we didn't even bring on despite still having a substitution left (which has become a theme with Moyes)

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'd have brought Hernandez on for Rooney and not Welbeck, who was playing well. There was also Giggs to still consider if you wanted creativity in midfield, who we didn't even bring on despite still having a substitution left (which has become a theme with Moyes)

Definitely true (and frustrating) in the earlier parts of the season but he's been using all three subs a lot more often in recent months. I was actually wondering if Fergie had a word with him.

 

[entropy]

Ooh FFS, you have to look at the situation as it's happening, Rooney wasn't with it last night, on several occasions he looked lost, it was clear he wasn't 100% fit. He also had a great opportunity to score and should have played Kagawa through, but fluffed his lines both times.
Nothing is certain in football, but by refusing to take the bigger risk and playing it safe with Rooney may have cost us the game, we will never know.
It doesn't matter who you are, if you're playing with an injury and are having no influence on the game, then you should be subbed.

That is only one half of the argument though. Why is it so hard for you to understand that Rooney is a player capable of changing games. He has been our best player for the last 10months and it is understandable for Moyes to stick with him even on a bad day.

 

[Kostur]

I don't agree with that at all.

On the left-wing, we have the following options: Welbeck, Kagawa, Nani, Januzaj, Young, Rooney.

Behind the striker, we have the following options: Rooney, Kagawa, Mata, Januzaj

On the right-wing, we have the following options: Mata, Januzaj, Nani, Valencia, Young, RvP

On top, we have the following options: RvP, Rooney, Welbeck, Hernandez

That's an absolutely outstanding selection, both in terms of the starting XI and the depth.

I think that such thinking - no offence by the way, it's not personal - is more damaging than Moyes right now. Rooney will not play on the left wing, RVP won't play on the right wing ( unless we're playing 4-3-3 but for that you'd need pacey striker-wingers, neither Rooney nor RVP fit into this description ). Nani, Young and Valencia, three unreliable wingers, former being constantly injured and it's just some people's sentiment that makes them believe that he'll 'come good' or so, Young speaks for itself and I'd probably leave Valencia here purely for his versality ( right wing, right back that is ) even though there are games where he's looking cringey with his inability to do anything with his broken left leg ( yesterday's game wasn't the one, he was good yesterday ).

I'd say that nobody here wants to see Rooney behind the striker ( RVP that is ), it's simply not working, their partnership is ugh this season. Hernandez seems to be gone, same applies for Nani even if somebody insisted on him staying here, Young should be gone. Kagawa, Mata, Januzaj, Valencia for the three spots behind the striker - that's how I see it. To utilise Welbeck the best, he should become our #9, he excels there, so it's three strikers of Rooney, RVP and Welbeck up front. Of course you can throw Danny on the wing because he's pacey and so on, but as said, I think we should stick him in the #9.

Januzaj, Kagawa and Mata all offer very similiar trait, they're not very fast ( Januzaj is easily the fastest out of those, but his speed is nowhere near Welbeck's or Valencia's for that matter ) and somebody made a good point, that front four of Januzaj, Kagawa, Mata, Rooney/RVP is possibly the slowest team you can get up front. We do need some winger that offers pace. I don't mind adding some youngster really, I'm all for it, but is there somebody who fills that role ?

I'd say that our depth - even though it looks good on the paper - is a bit glorified. Sure, compared to other formations it's Rolls Reus of our team but there's little versatility there. And I'd say that a year without CL is possibly the best year when you can fill in the gaps of your squad and build that depth.

 

[Getsme]

I know Rooney can change games, I know he can do wonders, I'm not arguing that, no one is. It's not just that he was having a bad day, he was clearly injured and struggling, Moyes said that he looked like he was struggling to strike the ball, and was concerned about his injury, yet still kept him on.
I'd much rather have a player who is fully fit than a player struggling for fitness, no matter who it is.

 

[stevoc]

We can talk all we like about tactics, motivation, systems etc but the problem is his ethos as a manager is the opposite of what Utd fans crave.....his priority is to hold onto what he has first and rarely will he gamble that to try and get a win. Its ingrained in everything he does and says "we made it hard for them....." for example.

Utd fans are used to throwing caution to the wind and accepting the highs and lows that go with the territory. Moyes is not wired that way and you're asking him to fundamentally change his priorities - this wont happen. Whether hes good enough or not is irrelevant, hes not "right" nor is he "Utd". That may be harsh but it was the one question we all asked after he was appointed - does he change Utd or does Utd change him? We have our answer.

I agree have been saying similar. The channel i was watching the match last night in my mates house(not sure which channel), had Mike Phelan on.

Mike was saying we seem to have changed our philosophy, united traditionally wouldn't have went into the bayern games with the mentality that they did.

He was saying the fans won't stay on his side too much longer unless he comes out of his shell and shows he can set the team up to play expansive football.

 

[Bilbo]

There's no doubt we need reinforcements in midfield and defence but our front four is among the five best in Europe. That should be enough foundation to get us playing exciting football, creating chances, scoring goals and finishing in the top-4.

Our attacking players are great. You'll hear no complaints about our selection of players there. However, an attacking unit is not a foundation of any team - Its the finishing touch. Our defense and midfield require serious surgery otherwise we simply won't be able to control games enough to feed our talent.

The reason (IMO) that Van Persie has cut such a disconsolate figure this season is because we weren't able to get him anywhere near enough of the ball, so his confidence dipped and he hasn't really recovered yet.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Why on earth would Mike Phelan be critical of United under Moyes?

 

[Cal?]

Yup, there isn't much wrong with our squad.

Bar the fact that we'll be short of 2 most experienced CBs and LB come summer, and God knows who more but hey, it seems that you entertain the idea of Büttner being our new first choice LB.

And yea, Klopp will magically come to us because we'll throw money at him, he surely wants to manage such great and huge club like Manchester United, he loves Kagawa naturally so he'll come here just for him.

Choo choo, everybody aboard the delusion train.

Nobody said anything about letting Evra leave, and you haven't noticed we have 3 other very good CBs.

Klopp May or may not come if we throw money at him, but he'd certainly be cheaper than Fellaini both in terms of fee and wages.

 

[Kostur]

Nobody said anything about letting Evra leave, and you haven't noticed we have 3 other very good CBs.

Klopp May or may not come if we throw money at him, but he'd certainly be cheaper than Fellaini both in terms of fee and wages.

Yea, nobody gave Evra a contract extension either. Yup, we have three very good CBs. All three injury prone. And yea, usual dig at Fellaini, quelle surprise.

 

[Bilbo]

Welbeck was subbed because he was exhausted. It was noticeable before the substitution.

 

[Bilbo]

The fact is that I think we are seeing clear signs of things improving over the last few weeks. I realise that it is not nearly enough to satisfy everybody who has made up their minds, and frankly it doesn't matter anyway. You will have to suck it up.

I am still withholding judgement on Moyes until he can recruit to solve the obvious problems we have in this squad, but I think we are at the point now where we need to keep seeing a steady improvement for the rest of our matches this season, followed by a strong summer in the market, and then a good start to next season. If we are still struggling at Xmas then I will be completely in favour of Moyes leaving.

 

[NK86]

They are the best team in Europe, it would have been the same outcome last year under SAF as well I reckon. We played a lot better against Munich than we have been playing in the league, that much is a fact.

We have been crap in the league. If you use that as the standard, any performance which did not include a battering was good. But my point is, people are resigned to it. We were not better than Madrid last season, but we were livid to go out. Now it's like a less humiliating defeat is ok.

 

[Amar__]

Well if you decide you can't compare them, then no, you can't compare them, but the fact is that Pep has the balls to take off any player he wants - even his stars - to change things tactically. He brought on a cocking right back FFS.

Rooney was injured and playing badly. He wasn't even kept up front to get a goal, he was moved back into midfield just to accommodate keeping him on. It was the opposite of balls.

Remember when Mourinho would take people off after half an hour if it wasn't working? That's what top managers do.

That happens almost every time he plays like shit, Moyes just has no balls to take him off and we usually end up bei6ng even worse after we move him in midfield.

 

[Cal?]

Yea, nobody gave Evra a contract extension either. Yup, we have three very good CBs. All three injury prone. And yea, usual dig at Fellaini, quelle surprise.

Nobody gave Evra a contract because Moyes is still around and he wants to spend half his warchest on Baines.

 

[Blasphemy]

How in the actual feck do you expect fergie to know we would finish 7th.

erm the point if we've finished 7th now (or 6th) and Fergie could dismiss Moyes if he wished, such is his influence on the Glazers.

 

[NK86]

There's logic to it if there's a plan behind it. It allowed Bayern to move Lahm to CM thus moving Kroos further up the pitch. Gave them better control of the game. Frankly, that's how I expected them to start too, was surprised to see Lahm at RB. Didnt Benitez make a similar sub in the istanbul final? Brought on a DM in Hamann, took care of Kaka and secured a famous win? Just throwing on a striker when you need a goal or a defender when you're leading isnt always the right way

Lahm started at RB but he was mostly playing in midfield. That's why Welbeck had all the space to run into on their right flank.