Are we expecting some signings ?
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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Are we expecting some signings ?
Absolutely not true. We are playing worse than Pulis's Stoke at the moment. No defense, no midfield, no creativity, no chances created. 6 games without scoring a goal from open play.
I strongly disagree. He was always going to change things up and find HIS way of doing things. You're assuming because one manager can win with a squad another can simply replicate the success with the same squad and that's not how football management works. Moyes isn't Fergie and he shouldn't be judged on that where the team is concerned. He should do it his way and be given time to do it, even if it takes more than one season. It's not Wigan he took over...it's Manchester Utd.
I don't expect it myself (and rightly so). Fellaini cost 27.5m, as I said without knowing how good/bad Moyes is going to be, it will be foolish to give him money to spend. We could easily end with a lot of expensive mediocre players and then things would get even worse. In fact, if I was the owner, the only way I would back a Moyes signing in January is if he was in United list before Moyes.
Are people actually unable to read? Where the hell did I said that Moyes should get the sack if he doesn't achieve to win the title by 11 points/make 89 points. Finishing in fourth place doesn't make him as good as Fergie, it will make him a manager who underperformed with a team but still that could be acceptable. Finishing outside of Champions doesn't make it acceptable cause we know from your team (after Capello left), Liverpool and other cases how difficult becomes getting back there.
You have an incredibly short, rose-tinted memory.
Enlighten me with some examples please.
Look, do you accept that a 4th place finish is acceptable? That is the question. If you do, then it seems extremely odd to me that 5th would be sackworthy. We are in the English Premier League. A league that may turn out to be more competitive than ever, with five teams in the mix. Either you dismiss that notion as being perfectly outlandish - or you can't insist that finishing outside the top four makes Moyes an obviously incompetent manager.
I said that Moyes should get sacked if he finishes below the fourth position. You said that you disagree, because just because SAF can win with the squad doesn't mean that Moyes can replicate his suceess. Which makes no sense considering that no-one has ever suggested that Moyes should get sacked if he doesn't walk with the title.
I can't be bothered. You are living in a delusional fergie wonderland.
Grazie. More sense from without than within these days, it would seem. Not least at the Caf.
So you're saying that he shouldn't be sacked if Utd don't win the title but sacked if Utd place lower than 4th? I disagree with the latter simply because Moyes was handpicked by Fergie for the job. The club sacks him and it shows the succession planning despite Fergie's love of club or foresight, was piss poor.
Do you want examples of slow starts on our part? Examples of us playing like feckin' zombies against City? Examples of us losing at Anfield to an inferior team? You can't be feckin' serious.
I think that 4th is a massive underachievement and depending on other things could be acceptable or not. Unless there are really shit performances (like those we have make this season) I wouldn't have nothing to give him another season because at-least we won't lose 30+m pounds, won't lose very much the atractiviness to sign players and would still be a big name. But we'll lose all of these if we don't get into UCL. And if you miss to go there, things will get harder to go back there. If you miss for two seasons then we have to spend half a decade trying to get there. It isn't that yeah, we give him 3-4 years, he does shit and then we are back to the position we were when SAF left. No in that case, we would be in position when Souness left. Morale would be critically low, agings players and very possible a lot of mediocre signings. Ok, I am taking into consideration one of the worst possible scenarios but there are many examples that things go progressively worse after you'll finish outside of Champions zone.
The only possible scenario I would back Moyes to keep the job if we finish outside of UCL is if we really have a complete shit half of season, but then in the second half we start playing like Gods beating everything in process, but not manage going there because of poor form of the first half. That would say that he has improven and the first half isn't what we are going to expect by him, rather that was the exception. But if we continue playing like this (or even a bit better) and finish outside of UCL zone, IMO it would be retarded to keep him more, and we should try to save ourselves while we can.
Try to give some examples of going 6 game without a goal from open play. Or examples of a run of games when we created absolutely nothing. How many times did we troubled Cech? Or Mignolet? Or Hart? Or WBA keeper? Now try to give a single example of a season that we got less than half of points in more than 5 games, couldn't score (or even come near to it) from open play and our defense was completely shit. I mean a run of games cause obviously you can pick 5 bad games from SAF in his reign of 3 decades, but it would be interesting if we can find all of these things combined in a single season. Oh, and having the wost start in EPL after 6 games.
You have 32 more games to play...cheer up!
Yeah, well the only thing there that makes any sense is the part about us playing like this: Of course, if we keep playing like this, there is every reason to sound the feckin' horn. But we are six matches into the season for Christ's sake. We have to assume we are capable of beating the likes of West Brom at Old Trafford (and we are) and that we're capable of not looking like bleedin' corpses against the likes of City (and we are). If we do not improve our performances at all, we are feckin' well doomed and - yes, then we should all chip in and hire a hitman to finish Moyes off. Alright? Cheer up, though - it might never happen.
The question here is how good a team he has inherited. And what he needs to do with it - how many changes is necessary to turn it into a team capable of challenging on all fronts under him - not under Fergie, who was an entirely different kettle of fish. You may have to live with the unpleasant fact that the teams around us have strengthened sufficiently to make it tricky enough for Moyes to steer us to a CL place. And you may want to consider that this would've been difficult for any manager.
If Spurs and Arsenal both mount a proper challenge this season what you say is completely absurd: 4th is alright - 5th, however, means Moyes is a terrible manager. It's plainly bollocks.
Baffles me that a hypothetical situation has been argued for so long in here.
And I obviously expect us to improve, in fact to improve big. I was just pointing out that we have never played this bad under Sir Alex, and I see no need to mask it and to say 'nah, it's nothing to worry, we always start slow', 'no problem getting thrashed by City, they hampered us 2 years ago', 'no problem losing against Liverpool, they always beat us in their stadium (despite we got 4 points in our last 2 visits there), 'no problem losing at home against WBA, we lost against Blackburn two years ago and against Bolton a decade ago', 'no problem that we aren't scoring from open play, 5 years ago we couldn't score against Fulham while 8 years ago against West Ham'. Thinks have been terrible so far this season, no need to mask it. Do I expect to improve? Yes of course cause the squad is very good, and I always rated Moyes to a degree (though wouldn't have him in my top 5 choices to replace SAF), but as there are now, it doesn't seem that much to hope for.
I admire your will to keep pointing out the obvious and picking apart their arguments, Chesterlestreet. It must have killed some of them to see Nevilles words.
This is hyperbole and rubbish, mate. We were poor - nobody in his right mind would deny that. But we weren't outplayed by either Chelsea or Liverpool. And we could've salvaged something from the WBA match. Chicharito alone could've made sure we would've been up by two at half time.
Aye. But we are now at a stage where we are doomed until proven otherwise. That is some people's idea of giving the new bloke half a chance, it seems.
Thanks, mate. I don't know how much longer I can keep it up, though. This place is falling apart fast. Does anyone have the link to that Bebecafe site someone launched, when we were waiting for the migration earlier?Never said that 4th is alright, I said 4th could be acceptable based on other things, though is a big underachievement. Fifth isn't acceptable, unless he shows some signs of exponential improvements in the second part of the season (like winning 10 games in a row or something like that).
Which teams have improved that much? City has changed their manager too and has got some good players, I give you that. Chelsea changed thier manager too. Arsenal signed Ozil, but are very short on many areas. Spurs lost their best player but invested smart. Liverpool are looking to be better then their were, though how much better? Yes most/all of these teams are a bit better than last season, but that much better? You can say that City has a better team than us, and you could possibly argue that Chelsea are at our level (though I think that it's bullshit) but here you have to stop. Are Arsenal, Spurs and Liverpool better than us? Not even close. When that pundit expected us to finish outside of UCL zone, we joked with him and said that how someone can argue that Arsenal/Spurs can finish above us. We gave Pete and Glaston a lot of stick for suggesting it. Now, 6 games (and 7 points) after the beginning of the season, some here have already accepted that finishing outside of Champions zone is perefectly fine and acceptable. What happened in the last month that some people here changed their attitude from 'not going to ever happen' to 'yeah, he's learning you know, the league is more competitive than ever, look the Supermans who are playing for Arsenal/Spurs'?
Which part is rubish? How many times had Mignolet to save his team? 1, from a shot by Nani from 25 metres? Cech to save Chelsea? We didn't even test him. Or how many times Hart had to make a save? Don't remember any. Dunno why Chicharito has been crucified in this forum for not scoring 2 goals from 3 crosses Nani made, when he didn't even touch the ball anyway.
We were equals to Chelsea and Liverpool, I give you that and in a better day at Liverpool we would have managed a 0-0 draw (and a point). But that's it, we didn't dominate either of those games (or coming close to score).
It's really stupid to judge Moyes purely on where we finish at the end of the season, you need to make decisions based on a wider view of what occurs. For example, if RvP or Carrick were injured for a large part of the season then a lower finish would be understandable. Or, as Revan said, if we massively improve in the second half of the season then that'll be a promising sign.
Having said all that, we still have at least one of the best four squads in the league, arguably the best. The majority of our rivals have gone through change too, either in terms of management or (in Spurs' case) the squad. We also hired a manager we believed would be good enough to keep us competitive. With all that in mind, failing to even challenge for the league would be a massive underperformance. I think people are beginning to underestimate our squad based on the results so far. We're better than this and, if we don't get back to the level this squad is capable of, it's ultimately down to the manager.
Having said all that, we still have at least one of the best four squads in the league, arguably the best. The majority of our rivals have gone through change too, either in terms of management or (in Spurs' case) the squad. We also hired a manager we believed would be good enough to keep us competitive. With all that in mind, failing to even challenge for the league would be a massive underperformance. I think people are beginning to underestimate our squad based on the results so far. We're better than this and, if we don't get back to the level this squad is capable of, it's ultimately down to the manager.
Lets be honest, some people are in there element, whatever hypothetical doomsday scenario they can think of. This thread is a testament to this.
Wise words, brother.
Look at what you just said - and at your original suggestion. Is this any worse than we have seen before? That is the question. If you don't get that, I'm done.
Oh Bullshit. Jesus H Christ. BULLSHIT.
That home game against Wolves under SAF was the worst thing I've ever seen...and I watched the Woman in Black remake with Daniel Radcliffe*.
*I didn't actually sit in the cinema with him, scandal fans.
*I didn't actually sit in the cinema with him, scandal fans.
If you take only a single game in context, then you can probably find games under SAF when we played worse. If you take the entire run of games, then no.
Are you really serious with this comment?
Gawd blimey.
I can see a lot of the posters not being United fans if we have a few years of mediocrity.
There is an upside then.
Being not happy wit how the things are going (and thinking that we can do better) doesn't make fans to choose another squad Sultan. Did anybody decided to not be a United fan when we couldn't even compete for title between 2003-2004 and 2005-2006, losing almost everytime we played Chelsea? Maybe yes, but I don't know any of them.
That was horrible, yeah - shocking, and not in a good way. And I did sit next to Radcliffe.
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