Plus a good performance vs Bayern. When everyone expected us to experience a fisting, we actually performed well defensively and really should have scored more goals.
Moyes So Far!
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Plus a good performance vs Bayern. When everyone expected us to experience a fisting, we actually performed well defensively and really should have scored more goals.
peterstorey said: "The Evertonization of United has begun."
Wish he was wrong on that count as well.
Not that I'm aware of.
The point of it was to ignore transfer fees, Moyes had a negative transfer budget over his recent seasons with Everton like Wenger at Arsenal. However, Wenger is often praised for operating on a low budget however the fact he had a good wage budget helped him immensely.
That said, what Wenger did was very good.
The graphs won't ever be accurate because even after a combination chart then you've got to control for European football and the need for a larger squad.
The reality is Wenger did well on his budget, Ferguson did well on his budget and David Moyes did well on his budget too. Martinez has continued his good work however whether he could build a team so well drilled like Moyes did only time will tell. And whether Moyes can build a formidable team when he actually has a positive transfer budget and large wage bill, too only time will tell.
Moyes got 63 points last season, however looking at the previous 3 seasons he went from 54 to 56 to 63 and so it looked like he was building himself a good little team there. Realistically getting around 66 or 67 points this season would be fair to predict for him.
The question then becomes had he a striker like Lukaku, how many more points would he be worth? Somebody posted here saying Lukaku's goals have earned Everton 12 points, that is to say turning losses into draws / wins and draws into wins. Therefore I wouldn't be surprised with such a striker if Moyes' Everton managed to get over 70 points.
Martinez is on course for 73.5 points however that would mean maintaining their excellent form even against Arsenal, Sunderland, Crystal Palace, Man United, Southampton, Man City and Hull.
In my opinion come the end of the season it might be the argument Martinez would probably be around the points mark we would have expected Moyes' side to get this season with a striker like Lukaku.
I personally think Moyes did well at Everton. I don't know if he is the right man here or not, therefore I am happy for the board to give him time but I will be nervous next season. I think his premier league performances between now and then end will give some hope, if he wins the remaining games. It's something he can do but the team will need to dig deep in some games no doubt. They are still fighting for Europa, something that would give our youngsters a fantastic european experience. And Moyes needs to learn how to deal with so many games in a short period of time, I think he struggled with this and couldn't prepare the team as well as he did Everton.
feck off. We surrendered meekly to our 2 biggest rivals on our own patch and scraped through against the worst side in the CL over 180 minutes. We're complete gash and some end of season ceremonial games aren't changing anything.
It's the equivalent of Liverpools usual end of season good spell when nothing matters. We've put in 1 good defensive team performance against Bayern.
I like this post.
My stance is to back the board's decision. They have the information behind the scenes they need, they have shown patience and so unless they genuinely think David Moyes isn't the right man for the job, they will probably give him time.
This summer will be a massive test though as also will be the remainder of the season. He must find a way of incorporating Rooney, RVP, Mata and Kagawa or risk losing at least one of them. If he can successfully find a way (e.g. Simeone style) then he will have a most lethal attack. If RVP has already decided to leave then this is less of a problem.
He must also try to hold onto some key players that might themselves want to go elsewhere.
We surrendered meekly to our 2 biggest rivals on our own patch and scraped through against the worst side in the CL over 180 minutes. We're complete gash and some end of season ceremonial games aren't changing anything.
It's the equivalent of Liverpools usual end of season good spell when nothing matters. We've put in 1 good defensive team performance against Bayern.
What about our 4 away clean sheets in a row?
What about them? Seasons over.
I don't believe anyone who had a clue would or should need 30 odd league games to start figuring out some of the things Moyes has.
I was talking about it being a good performance from a defensive point of view. We didn't exactly play brilliant stuff against Bayern. We have hardly played any good stuff all season
To be fair, I didn't imagine that we would not qualify for UCL. From the beginning I have said that Moyes should get a few years (regardless if we win trophies or not) as long as we qualify for UCL. The probelm is that at time it looked very impossible for us to not get into top 4, so in that post I haven't mentioned that. Anyway, I am very sure that if you go into my posts you can see that I have given that condition in order to support Moyes (top 4).
I don't know when I made that post and it's hard to judge a post without context, but at-least I hope that it had to be what if we don't win trophies under Moyes. As I said, at that time, not finishing on top 4 wasn't really imaginable.
I never thought that Moyes would do a Hodgson, and I have said many times that Hodgson's sacking was a great decision by Liverpool because it was clear that they were not going anywhere but down with him. Moyes doing a Hodgson makes me change my stance on him, from a few years without trophies to at the moment when the season ends (assuming that we don't win UCL). When the person in charge doesn't even achieve the minimum expectations then I guess it is time to change the stance.
Edit: Oh, it looks like that post I made was for Rodgers, not Moyes. I thought that Rodgers did okay in his first season there, some things started to improve but their position on the table was the same (in fact, I remember defending him on one of LFC' threads and saying that they are improving and Suarez's good form is partially because of Rodgers). In his first season, Rodgers wasn't as bad as Moyes which means that a judgement about sacking or not him is a bit more complex.
You said we've put in 1 good defensive team performance against Bayern.
You responded to a post suggesting at least we are witnessing somewhat of an improvement. You laughed at that post stating we've put in 1 good defensive performance against Bayern so I asked you the question, were our last 4 away clean sheets not good defensive performances?
I don't think anybody is denying this has been a poor season and we have under performed. However that isn't reasoning enough to laugh at a very plausible suggestion by that other poster we seem to be showing an improvement.
But isn't it all a bit meaningless when we literally crumble each time we face a decent team ? Because good wins against the likes of Palace, WBA et al have preceded inept performances against decent sides . Moyes needed to show that he can win against the big boys because trophies are won by beating those teams .
The board would be completely crazy to let him continue in the job. Forget about the embarrassment and abject failure of not getting top 4, we're probably going to finish behind Everton. That is unforgiveable considering he has taken over a team of title contenders that finished way ahead of them for 2 decades. This is because he is unable to get the best out of our players. Let RVP leave?? Sorry but why sell him if the manager is the problem?
Meh, trophies are won by getting points I don't care who off. If we'd have beaten West Brom/Fulham and Newcastle this season at OT we'd be in the top four now. So winning these games comfortably for now is definitely an improvement.
I laughed at the suggestion we weren't that bad against Fulham and it was down to the laziness of the players. We've beaten a couple of shit teams playing for nothing and defended resolutely, at home, for 90 minutes in Europe. Let's not worry that we completely ceded possession or that our only out ball was a punt downfield to Welbeck. Mind you, that was actually a massive improvement so I suppose you're right.
Nice to see you return, Twiggy, when we start winning. Nice to see your ability to post rubbish hasn't changed either.
Thanks for the link mate.
''There's a bit of expectation at Old Trafford''
Understatement of the century that, the way he talks sometimes its like he had absolutely no idea about the United job.
Can someone tell him to stop giving interviews, he shoots himself in the foot every time he opens his mouth.
This, he needs some media training i don't like to over analyze everything the man says but jesus he has come out with some whoppers in recent weeks.
He should spend more time thinking about what he will say in pressers instead of reading those self help books on how to project confidence.
That is Arsenal's trophy and we shouldn't allow ourselves to descent to levels of coveting such a finish . Top four is where we fall off after defeat in the title race . And before you jump on my throat Moyes would have been excused if it was all he managed in his first two campaigns because following Sir Alex was never going be easy .
It's weird because our players are used to the expectation at OT. It's him who isn't. Leon Osman said today Everton were used to letting the opposition play but set up to be hard to beat then hit on the break. At OT where we are expected to dominate and dictate play, we've been found wanting with no plan but to get to the byline and hit an aerial cross in. Can Moyes set up a team to dominate games against quality opposition (not just relegation fodder or mid-table teams already on the beach)?
Well I doubt I'll ever stop posting rubbish. Been here for 6 years now and still going strong.
As for back when we're winning, it's my Easter holidays! I'll be around a lot for the next few weeks
Of course mate i agree, just irritates me when some people run about here posting that hes ''definitely'' staying or its ''obvious'' hes staying when they haven't a fecking clue one way or the other like the rest of us. It was also ''obvious'' to a lot of people in the last few years that when SAF retired we would go for a top coach and not someone like moyes, well look how that one turned out. I'm not desperate for the man to be sacked but i accept there is a good chance it will happen just as there is a good chance he will stay.
You are right about the Glazers delegating the football side to SAF and Gill but they are business men at the end of the day and this is a huge business so it's likely they seek advice from other football people also, i am not saying they will sack moyes but if they wanted to i doubt they would hesitate or be worried about going against some people at the club, they are the owners after all.
Also worth considering, everyone assumes the glazers know nothing about football, when they bought us the stories at the time were one of the brothers was a big ''soccer'' fan, and im sure in the decade since they bought the club they have all became a lot more knowledgeable about the game than they were.
I see you're back now we've won at the weekend. I assume we won't be seeing you on Wednesday if we lose to Bayern?
Most likely in the Champions League or Europa League on about a quarter of our budget, while we finish 6/7th with the second highest wages in the league.
The only thing that's hilarious is how badly Moyes has failed, to everybody in football except United fans.
We know he's failed so far. The question is do we believe he can get us out of it.
Of course he can't. Even if he manages to get is back in the Champions League next season that is not an achievement, that is not success. That's the absolute minimum he should be achieving.
Moyes will never ever be a manager who can lead a club to the Champions League win, feel free to bookmark that and quote me if I'm wrong but he does not and never will have what it takes to constantly win trophies and for that reason (among many others) he has to go.
Yeah i think thats been our problem against decent sides this season home and away, this teams instincts are to go out and assert themselves and try to get on top, Moyes natural instincts seem to focus on stopping the opposition which could be confusing matters, resulting in our performances being being caught between two stools.
Our one win this season against a good side vs arsenal was 1-0 from a corner where we ceded the initiative and tried to hit them on the break, hardly convincing and the story of our season.
The question is, do we want the man who got us to this position being given the opportunity to get us out of it.
True. Against other sides we have looked toothless and devoid of ideas, yet he thinks it's because we've been gung-ho.
I'm not defending or attacking Moyes.
A poster laughed at the suggestion we have shown improvements and I merely pointed out this is a plausible suggestion. I thought laughing at the suggestion was unnecessary.
Secondly, one season does not mean Moyes won't do better against the top teams next season. Rodgers got 5 points from a possible 20 points against the top four last season and then instantly improved on this. Moyes got 5 points from a possible 20 points this season.
That said, whether the board sack or back Moyes is irrelevant to me. I just want them to get it right.
I also reject your notion we have crumbled each time we face a decent team. We didn't crumble against Bayern (home), Arsenal (home), Arsenal (away), Chelsea (home). Clearly we need to improve our performances and results against the better teams, also we have clearly under performed against them however I do not think we have crumbled each time we have faced them, one look at the results shows this.
I've been posting here regularly all season!
Started to show a style of football now which has been missing.
Tactically good against a superb Bayern team.
We can only hope he is getting a handle on the job.
Tactically good against a superb Bayern team.
We can only hope he is getting a handle on the job.
Two more victories at home this year and we would have been right in the Battle for fourth. That's bitter and even with our lack of midfield and a class central defender, we should have been there.
What he did at everton in terms of consistent league position is certainly commendable but i do think his job there has been overrated a little.
Once he had a few years and stabilized them in mid-table he had the platform to introduce a more expansive style of football but chose not to, for reasons i don't understand because it's not like he was under pressure to come 4th every year, he could have at least had them play entertaining football in most of the last 5-6 years. Although granted they did play some good stuff last season.
The other thing is the way he sets his teams up to be hard to beat should have lent to them being a great cup side, but not one cup win in 20+ attempts. I have always been baffled how they didn't do better in the cups to be honest. Good solid side hard to beat, they should have picked a few cups up no problem.
I personally think he could have done a lot more at everton, so do a lot of everton fans i've spoken to in the last few years.
How many managers have suddenly become top class at/after 50? Genuine question...
Oh right, that's fair enough against Fulham.
'shit' teams, like Crystal Palace beating Chelsea because they are fighting relegation? We beat them with a clean sheet and then we beat West Brom with a clean sheet and before that we got a clean sheet against at the time an Arsenal team very much so in the title race. So that's 5 away clean sheets in a row, 3 of those playing for something. Personally, I think Mourinho would rather have got a clean sheet against Palace than not. And I would say he took that game very seriously as he mentioned afterwards because of the danger posed by teams fighting to stay up.
Being critical of this season is fair but using that to ignore obvious improvements isn't. I think it's fine being objectively critical but turning positives of your manager into negatives just to make him look bad is odd, surely you should want Moyes to succeed and for as long as he is in a job hope he performs well?
Also you seem to suggest Moyes' tactics against Bayern were not the way forward? I don't think Mourinho would have done much different, considering Bayern have only two centre backs defending when they are deep in our half and a player like Welbeck could exploit that. Had we better passers of the ball then a few long accurate balls could have really punished Bayern.
I recall a Real Madrid match, parking the bus against Barcelona and playing Ronaldo up top, simply because it was an effective tactic.
You seem to suggest Moyes went about things the wrong way so I ask you this, looking at the United team how would you approach Bayern? Shall we try to play them off the park, is that what Ferguson would do?
Has Moyes ever won Arsenal 3-0? Imagine if Everton get 4th spot, Everton would never take Moyes back in a million years they've taken the shackles off.
To answer my own question... I'm fairly sure it doesn't happen.
Today was an indication of just how far Everton have come since Moyes left. Previously when they've beaten the big teams (at home, obviously) they play tight and score one or two on the break or from set pieces, today they played football at Arsenal and got reward.
Cast your mind back to how we played Arsenal at home this season. Sound familiar?
Cast your mind back to how we played Arsenal at home this season. Sound familiar?
There are examples, what worries me though.
While im sure there are coaches who half way through their careers started winning trophies having not done so before, and i am sure there are coaches who half way through their careers changed their philosophy from defensive to attacking.
I sincerely doubt there are any who have gone from not winning anything to winning consistently while simultaneously transforming their mentality from defensive minded to attack minded, and lets not even mention the added pressure of succeeding the greatest manager of all time at one of the largest clubs on the planet which would have been difficult for even a world class coach.
This has always been my problem with moyes i think it will all prove too much for him. The signs are already there, appointing him was a massive risk.
Yeah stark contrast to how we set up against them Home & Away, everton showed some serious balls today they could have easily tried to stay tight and nick it given the importance of the match to them.
The board won't be completely crazy if they let him continue in the job as they will only do so if they have sound reasoning. They have far more knowledge than we do and if they feel he can drastically improve next season then it would make sense on their part to let him continue.
For this reason I would back their decision as opposed to moaning about it because they are so much better placed than us to make it.
If RVP wants to leave then let him go, we won't have champions league football and he is at the end of his career. He will be very problematic if we force him to stay, understandably so since we will be building for the future. Should RVP want to stay then fine however if he wants to leave then use him in a player exchange.
I've noticed this the last few times I've seen Liverpool but that corner West ham was good example. Liverpool left 4 outfield players outside the box, 4 of whom practically on half way line. Brought great chance for counter attack that a better team would have put away.
Compare that next time you see a corner is are defending. I've only seen one this season where we havent had all 11 players in the box
Compare that next time you see a corner is are defending. I've only seen one this season where we havent had all 11 players in the box
Fellaini has not scored since his £27million summer move from Everton and was subject to ironic cheers by United fans when he made a successful pass in the first leg 1-1 draw with Bayern Munich last week.
But Moyes insisted: “His first goal will be the turning point – I really think so. Some of the stuff he has done with the ball on his chest has been great.
“I can see bits where the supporters probably want more than that. But hopefully he’ll get better, and I think and hope the supporters grow to like him because I think he has a part to play in many of the games we’ll play.
“He is capable of big goals and in Munich on Wednesday wouldn’t be a bad time if he could get an opener.
“He’s been getting closer, he’s had a couple of snap shots, he should have scored with a header at West Ham, so I can only say it’s getting closer and I hope a goal is not too far away.
“He’s probably had his best performances away from home for us, so that might say a little bit. The supporters who’ve seen him away from home will say he’s played well.
“In the first leg against Bayern Marouane got better as the game went on as he grew into it. He did well.
“He wasn’t brought in to play in every single game. He was here to play in certain games.”
Moyes is adamant there was no disgrace in playing a containing game against the reigning champions. But he has hinted he may tweak tactics in Germany as they seek an away goal.
He said: “I don’t think there is any shame in what we did by a long way.
“Tactically we played very well but we might need to think differently in the second leg.
“We have to try to get the first goal. That would put us in the driving seat.
“But we need to give ourselves a chance, and don’t concede by feeling we have to go chasing the game.”
But Moyes insisted: “His first goal will be the turning point – I really think so. Some of the stuff he has done with the ball on his chest has been great.
“I can see bits where the supporters probably want more than that. But hopefully he’ll get better, and I think and hope the supporters grow to like him because I think he has a part to play in many of the games we’ll play.
“He is capable of big goals and in Munich on Wednesday wouldn’t be a bad time if he could get an opener.
“He’s been getting closer, he’s had a couple of snap shots, he should have scored with a header at West Ham, so I can only say it’s getting closer and I hope a goal is not too far away.
“He’s probably had his best performances away from home for us, so that might say a little bit. The supporters who’ve seen him away from home will say he’s played well.
“In the first leg against Bayern Marouane got better as the game went on as he grew into it. He did well.
“He wasn’t brought in to play in every single game. He was here to play in certain games.”
Moyes is adamant there was no disgrace in playing a containing game against the reigning champions. But he has hinted he may tweak tactics in Germany as they seek an away goal.
He said: “I don’t think there is any shame in what we did by a long way.
“Tactically we played very well but we might need to think differently in the second leg.
“We have to try to get the first goal. That would put us in the driving seat.
“But we need to give ourselves a chance, and don’t concede by feeling we have to go chasing the game.”
“He wasn’t brought in to play in every single game. He was here to play in certain games.”
Interesting
Interesting
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