Moyes So Far!

[stevoc]

They were very lucky 4 years ago though, that flukey deflected free kick off neville, rooneys injury when he was on fire that season, and even them they had to get Rafael sent off at OT because we were hammering them, would have fancied us to get to the final that year would have made 4 finals in a row.

I'd say this is your favourite thread

Haha yeah probably mate in a masochistic sort of way.

I come on and try to stay away from this thread but im always drawn back in.

 

[Shamwow]

Who among us seriously see us beating Bayern at their house, with or without Fellaini? We had a much better squad and they a much better squad now than a few season ago, yet they beat us then.

It's an outrageous insult to the legacy Robbo, Keano, Becks and Scholesey that Fellaini is on this squad, but his inclusion in the side won't consign us to defeat to Bayern.

If Fellaini puts in a masterful performance and scores the match-winner I will consider sniffing my own log droppings. No way will I eat it!

I bet you sniff them anyway, just to appreciate your creation.

 

[Barney]

I'd say there are some similarities to Liverpool last season. By January they still hadn't managed to win against a team in the top 10 and their record was scored 9, conceded 19 against them. He was getting criticised from all quarters for what he said in his interviews and for coming across as smug. The signings of Sturridge and Coutinho really injected a bit of life into them from January onwards and they carried on that form and confidence into next season. They still struggled against the top sides - in fact I don't believe they won a game against the top four last season and they obviously went out against Zenit in the EL - but they won the smaller games and picked up a fair bit of momentum.

We're in a similar position. Our record against the top six this year is poor (played 5, lost 4, drawn 1, scored 2 and conceded 11) but we are doing well against the rest (9 games, 7 wins, 1 draw, 1 loss, scored 22, conceded 4). Mata has obviously added an injection of quality into the team and he has brought the best out of Kagawa, similar to the effect that Sturridge and Coutinho had this time last year. Rodgers' Liverpool are an obvious example of how the results in a managers' first six months can be misleading and how it is possible for a team to turn it around completely.

People are talking about whether Moyes has stumbled upon the right system at United thanks to injuries but I believe something similar happened with Rodgers. Liverpool fans have happily admitted that he was stubborn and stuck to a rigid system at the beginning and that hindered them but then a quality player like Sturridge came in and forced him to find a way of accommodating him. He went through a phase of trying a 352 before ending up with that 4312 so it's not like he had a clear idea of how to get the best out of his best players right from the start, there was some experimentation and a "getting to know his players" phase. It took a while for him to get the best out of Gerrard too. In fact most Liverpool fans were saying it's time for him to be phased out and he is becoming a problem which is similar to what some of our fans are saying about van Persie.

People will obviously say that Rodgers and Moyes are completely different and Rodgers showed signs of progress and United are in a completely different position etc., but just to remind people what was being said about Rodgers last year. "He's out of his depth", "he's a mediocre manager", "Swansea have went up a level without him"...it's all the same stuff we've heard about Moyes.


I thought this was funny considering Revan's stance throughout this Moyes thread as well...

The difference is Rodgers took over a team that finished in 8th and guided them to 7th. Moyes has taken a team that finished 1st and has brought them down and out of the Champions League places.

I think you're looking at things from an extremely optimistic stand point if you think Moyes will do what Rodgers has done.

Our record against the "top" teams was poor, but again, Rodgers had us unlucky not to win in most cases. We could've and should have beaten City home and away, As well as Arsenal away. We didn't suffer any drubbings and we looked like a competent team that actually knew what they were doing. If Moyes had been unlucky in his games I'd agree, but he's been spanked By City twice, us and Chelsea.

He was stubborn for the first couple of months, but he changed earlier on than you make out. The 3-5-2 came this season. Rodgers has shown and did show much more tactical flexibility last season and has brought that forward. He wasn't afraid to make early changes that impacted matches (see Suso vs Wigan).

Rodgers absolutely showed signs of progress. I don't think any Liverpool supporter would deny that whereas most United fans would admit that you have regressed.

If you think Moyes is going to title challenge, good luck to you. I think he can get you fighting for top four, but I wouldn't think he'll finish any higher than 4th with you lot. I hope he stays personally.

 

[Wednesday at Stoke]

Rodgers was also quick enough to get rid of mistakes from the previous regime like Carroll, Adam and Downing and brought something positive out of Henderson and Joe Allen, who both looked pretty unfit initially. Moyes here is still sticking onto players like Young, Valencia, Cleverley etc in important games as well as adding to the morose in Fellaini.

I think Rodgers would have relished working with players of Kagawa's ability and he's been afforded lesser funds compared to what Moyes has accessed already and will likely get more in the summer. Comparing Moyes' management so far would be unfair to how well Rodgers has done at a club where the financial resources were nowhere compatible to what the supporters and history of the club demanded of him.

 

[Needham]

Seems to be no precedent in the modern game of an annointed successor being carried along on the goodwill of supporters ordered to give him an elastic length of time in which to succeed in achieving something he has never achieved before: success. There are no relative definitions of success at Manchester United, though there may be at Stoke, Hull, and even a penniless Everton. Success at Manchester United means winning things season on season, and 'the double' is not the League and the FA Cup, but the League and the Champion's League (modesty aside, that's what it has been since 99). At this point, a cranky or decisive owner would come in handy. Aren't these acquisitive, money broker, deal-making ownership magnates skilled in at least wielding the red button to protect their gains? Seems they won't do it unless there is sustained obvious dissent from the match-going support. And they've just been singing the manager's name again. DM is a decent man being kept in a job by a decent support base. It won't change this summer.

 

[Sky1981]

I'd say there are some similarities to Liverpool last season. By January they still hadn't managed to win against a team in the top 10 and their record was scored 9, conceded 19 against them. He was getting criticised from all quarters for what he said in his interviews and for coming across as smug. The signings of Sturridge and Coutinho really injected a bit of life into them from January onwards and they carried on that form and confidence into next season. They still struggled against the top sides - in fact I don't believe they won a game against the top four last season and they obviously went out against Zenit in the EL - but they won the smaller games and picked up a fair bit of momentum.

We're in a similar position. Our record against the top six this year is poor (played 5, lost 4, drawn 1, scored 2 and conceded 11) but we are doing well against the rest (9 games, 7 wins, 1 draw, 1 loss, scored 22, conceded 4). Mata has obviously added an injection of quality into the team and he has brought the best out of Kagawa, similar to the effect that Sturridge and Coutinho had this time last year. Rodgers' Liverpool are an obvious example of how the results in a managers' first six months can be misleading and how it is possible for a team to turn it around completely.

People are talking about whether Moyes has stumbled upon the right system at United thanks to injuries but I believe something similar happened with Rodgers. Liverpool fans have happily admitted that he was stubborn and stuck to a rigid system at the beginning and that hindered them but then a quality player like Sturridge came in and forced him to find a way of accommodating him. He went through a phase of trying a 352 before ending up with that 4312 so it's not like he had a clear idea of how to get the best out of his best players right from the start, there was some experimentation and a "getting to know his players" phase. It took a while for him to get the best out of Gerrard too. In fact most Liverpool fans were saying it's time for him to be phased out and he is becoming a problem which is similar to what some of our fans are saying about van Persie.

People will obviously say that Rodgers and Moyes are completely different and Rodgers showed signs of progress and United are in a completely different position etc., but just to remind people what was being said about Rodgers last year. "He's out of his depth", "he's a mediocre manager", "Swansea have went up a level without him"...it's all the same stuff we've heard about Moyes.


I thought this was funny considering Revan's stance throughout this Moyes thread as well...

Well Brwned

I wasn't convince with Rodgers before however, he has proven me wrong, and now I have only praise for him and I eat my words. I can't say the same with Moyes, he has not proven me wrong. He might do a Rodger, but until he finally does a Rodger, he's still the wrong one for me. I'm fair enough to acknowledge Rodger's great job there, and you can find my post regarding Liverpool.

On the other hand, how many of yous says he's a brilliant appointment when he got the job?

 

[Sky1981]

Yeah it's shit, and yeah we have done worse than I thought we would have. But we've had a lot of bad luck as well. It's been a crazy season in the league but I think I'd rather give Moyes a longer time, especially as I think we've got gradually better as the seasons gone on. It was going to be hard this year, but Moyes proved he was a good manager at Everton I'm sure he'll get it right here as well.

This is the one thing I have problems with:

He's doing a great job taking them from bottom to midtable. But after that, is it a wonder he kept them on 6th on average? Budget or no Budget, Name me a team that's supposed to be better than Everton? My point is, after the first few season, Everton are there based on merit / quality / transfer wise / stability / manager, it's not by Moyes' sheer brilliance they stayed at 6th, 6th or thereabouts is where Everton should be give or take 1 or 2 spots.

There's nothing special / marvelous about his tenure there, and this "On a shoe string budget" is getting too much overrated

 

[Getsme]

Fellaini is a distraction for Bayern though - he's a distraction against any team (including us). You need to ask the Bayern players if he made any real difference to the way they played to be honest.

He's itchin to get sent off by the looks of it too, so he'll most likely be a liability in Munich. I'd drop him to the bench & maybe put Jones & Fletch alongside Carrick, with Kagawa, Welbeck & Rooney last third. Or Kagawa in midfield replacing Fletch, with Adnan on the right - swappin with Danny...

Reckon he'll pretty much stick with the same side though, but with Evra at LB & Jones / Fletch replacing giggsy...

Its a tough one, just hope Moyes makes the right decision!

This is where the danger lies with Fellaini, he could easily have been sent off in the games against City and Newcastle, both for the same reason, elbowing. If he does that in Europe it's a certain red card.
I've tried to be positive when it comes to him but I've lost all faith in his ability to fit in at United. £27 million for a squad player! If Moyes keeps spending like that we will be in trouble.

 

[pocco]

This is the one thing I have problems with:

He's doing a great job taking them from bottom to midtable. But after that, is it a wonder he kept them on 6th on average? Budget or no Budget, Name me a team that's supposed to be better than Everton? My point is, after the first few season, Everton are there based on merit / quality / transfer wise / stability / manager, it's not by Moyes' sheer brilliance they stayed at 6th, 6th or thereabouts is where Everton should be give or take 1 or 2 spots.

There's nothing special / marvelous about his tenure there, and this "On a shoe string budget" is getting too much overrated

Why should Everton be in 6th? You only think that because Moyes turned them into a good team and consistently get them to those positions. Based on spending etc then they were punching above their weight really.

 

[Sky1981]

Why should Everton be in 6th? You only think that because Moyes turned them into a good team and consistently get them to those positions. Based on spending etc then they were punching above their weight really.

Punching above whose weight?

Everton spend much less than City, Arsenal, Chelsea, United, Liverpool, Hotspur, and they're 6th but you forgot that Everton also outspends the other bottom halves

Do you honestly think Everton doesn't merit being 6th and only Moyes' brilliance made them finish sixth? Where do you think Moyes should be if not for Moyes then? 18th?

 

[pocco]

Punching above whose weight?

Everton spend much less than City, Arsenal, Chelsea, United, Liverpool, Hotspur, and they're 6th but you forgot that Everton also outspends the other bottom halves

Do you honestly think Everton doesn't merit being 6th and only Moyes' brilliance made them finish sixth? Where do you think Moyes should be if not for Moyes then? 18th?

That's a good question, but one I don't have the answer to.

Seriously, Everton looked like they'd get relegated before Moyes took over.

 

[Tomalonge]

I can understand people having reservations about Fellaini but Mata was a beauty of a signing.

 

[Jev]

Surely, Moyes doesn't really believe Fellaini did well against Bayern? The talk of him getting his first goal also seems a bit silly. Some CMs go years without a goal, shouldn't matter if you're capable of doing your job.

 

[Floyd]

Punching above whose weight?

Everton spend much less than City, Arsenal, Chelsea, United, Liverpool, Hotspur, and they're 6th but you forgot that Everton also outspends the other bottom halves

Do you honestly think Everton doesn't merit being 6th and only Moyes' brilliance made them finish sixth? Where do you think Moyes should be if not for Moyes then? 18th?

That's just not true at all. Season after season they were bottom of the net spend table. They hardly bought players.

 

[Julian Denny]

Nobody's doubting that Moyes steadied the ship at Everton. What is at issue is that he failed to get them back into the top echelon of clubs where they belonged. During his 11 years at Goodison, they merely flirted with a top four finish and achieved it on just one occasion and then failed to get beyond the ECL qualifiers. Frankly I don't think this was a good enough performance. After all Everton were not a West Brom or a Stoke etc, they had been a big club in the 80's and during that period they had won the league twice, the FAC, the League Cup as well as the old European Cup Winners Cup. So the history was there and so must have been the expectation. Moyes basically failed to re-ignite the glory years. OK there was always the old excuse of unavailability of funds but a good manager, with pretensions of greatness, will invariably make something out of virtually nothing and Everton were not at that level. The more I read about Moyes' time at Everton and what the fans thought about it and some of the players too, it becomes increasingly apparent how unsuited he is for this United job. He just doesn't have it in him to manage a club of the magnitude of United and to carry on the glorious traditions of attacking and above all winning football. Moyes is not a winner as such. He is more suited to managing far more ordinary clubs who are in need of some organisation and steadying. It really is unfathomable how "they" came to the conclusion that Moyes was the right man for the job. They didn't seem to want to consider anyone else including those who seemed far better qualified.

 

[Varun]

Surely, Moyes doesn't really believe Fellaini did well against Bayern? The talk of him getting his first goal also seems a bit silly. Some CMs go years without a goal, shouldn't matter if you're capable of doing your job.

He said Fellaini did very well. Make of that what you will.

Also, the comments about Fellaini and goals fits in with what I think about Moyes and his use of Fellaini, he's confused regarding the role he wants him to play. Surely he understands that the reason Fellaini got goals at Everton have nothing to do with him being a proper goal scoring midfielder but because of where he played?

 

[Getsme]

I can understand people having reservations about Fellaini but Mata was a beauty of a signing.

I agree, I hope Moyes or whoever comes in has the balls to drop players and build the team around Mata.

 

[Varun]

I can understand people having reservations about Fellaini but Mata was a beauty of a signing.

Yes, lets hope we use him properly.

 

[Getsme]

That's just not true at all. Season after season they were bottom of the net spend table. They hardly bought players.

They bought plenty, it was the fact that Moyes usually sold a 'star player' that kept his net spend down.

 

[Loublaze]

That's a good question, but one I don't have the answer to.

Seriously, Everton looked like they'd get relegated before Moyes took over.

In all fairness you're right. Everton were just about keeping their heads above relegation waters when Moyes signed. He took them as far as he could though, now they are tactically better and more lethal as an attacking unit under Martinez. They wouldn't be talking top four if Moyes was still in charge.
When Everton made the top 4 in 04/05 they scored the least number of goals in the top 9 in the table (Villa were tenth and matched them for goals scored) and they were the only team in the top ten (Villa being the other) to have a negative goal difference. They made the top 4 by being 'hard to beat' but were one of the weakest attacking teams. They amassed 61 points in what was a poor season for teams trying to make top 4. Sounds like a typical Moyes team. It was a fluke. This Martinez top 4 chasing team is streets ahead in all departments and statistics.

 

[Sky1981]

In all fairness you're right. Everton were just about keeping their heads above relegation waters when Moyes signed. He took them as far as he could though, now they are tactically better and more lethal as an attacking unit under Martinez. They wouldn't be talking top four if Moyes was still in charge.
When Everton made the top 4 in 04/05 they scored the least number of goals in the top 9 in the table (Villa were tenth and matched them for goals scored) and they were the only team in the top ten (Villa being the other) to have a negative goal difference. They made the top 4 by being 'hard to beat' but were one of the weakest attacking teams. They amassed 61 points in what was a poor season for teams trying to make top 4. Sounds like a typical Moyes team. It was a fluke. This Martinez top 4 chasing team is streets ahead in all departments and statistics.

But... but... shoestring budget.... Shoe string budget...

Surely... Moyes is the GOAT... imagine... shoestring budget....

 

[Drummer]

Managers use interviews for their own goals. If people don't understand that at this stage then they are extremely naieve.

How often do top managers consistantly pick and support players that has the fans scratching their heads? Let's not forget that Ashley young was bought and played by SAF !

Fellani is short on confidence and struggling. DM obviously doesn't think publically attacking him will yield any benefits to the player so he is trying to publically back him.

Some players respond to constructive criticism at differant times, but sometimes putting your arm around them can give just the same results.

People on social forums only want heroes or heads to roll! We haven't really come that far as a society, just changed heads physically in blocks to death by public scrutiny.

 

[Danny1982]

Managers use interviews for their own goals. If people don't understand that at this stage then they are extremely naieve.

How often do top managers consistantly pick and support players that has the fans scratching their heads? Let's not forget that Ashley young was bought and played by SAF !

Fellani is short on confidence and struggling. DM obviously doesn't think publically attacking him will yield any benefits to the player so he is trying to publically back him.

Some players respond to constructive criticism at differant times, but sometimes putting your arm around them can give just the same results.

People on social forums only want heroes or heads to roll! We haven't really come that far as a society, just changed heads physically in blocks to death by public scrutiny.

Backing him publicly is one thing, playing him against Bayern, again, and giving clear indications that he's going to be an important player for us next season as well, is another thing.

By the way, what happened to the caf lately?! "We need to give Fellaini more time, and back him until he performs", but, after scoring 11 goals in 17 starts this season, "sell RVP now"!

 

[Getsme]

By the way, what happened to the caf lately?! "We need to give Fellaini more time, and back him until he performs", but, after scoring 11 goals in 17 starts this season, "sell RVP now"!

It's crazy when you think about it. Sell everybody buy Everton

 

[Wumminator]

Backing him publicly is one thing, playing him against Bayern, again, and giving clear indications that he's going to be an important player for us next season as well, is another thing.

By the way, what happened to the caf lately?! "We need to give Fellaini more time, and back him until he performs", but, after scoring 11 goals in 17 starts this season, "sell RVP now"!

I imagine the people saying those two sentences are widely different fans of the club.

 

[Drummer]

Backing him publicly is one thing, playing him against Bayern, again, and giving clear indications that he's going to be an important player for us next season as well, is another thing.

By the way, what happened to the caf lately?! "We need to give Fellaini more time, and back him until he performs", but, after scoring 11 goals in 17 starts this season, "sell RVP now"!

Some managers feel playing a player out of bad form is the best way for them to find their feet. But like I said most people on foot forums only understand simple solutions to what they see as simple problems.

The Rvp comments are no less stupid then some of the stuff written about DM. It's just different people are happy to choose different scapegoats at differant times. I'm not sure that those backing Fellani are all looking to offload Rvp but found the fact you linked the two together interesting.

Rvp was bought to replace Rooney. I think that The problem is that they were never intended to play together! Rooney was never gonna be a big part of SAF plans as soon as Rvp was bought.

DM had decided from the start that Rooney was his number one but would of been mad to turn up the opportunity to try and get two of the worlds best forwards to fit into the one team.

 

[DFreshKing]

Fines lines in reality are blurred by grandstanding bullshit on forums like any other media. We have got to the Cl Qf and with two wins at home we would be strong favourites for top four which most people expected after losing the greatest manager ever who by all accounts overachieved last season.

He is clearly trying to boast a new signing who has had a tough start to his career at one of the biggest and high pressure clubs.

He might come good or be swallowed by the stature of the club as has happened before, if he does come good though he will deserve all the more credit because he certainly will have to do it without support from his club's fans.

 

[bishblaize]

By the way, what happened to the caf lately?! "We need to give Fellaini more time, and back him until he performs", but, after scoring 11 goals in 17 starts this season, "sell RVP now"!

People are suggesting sacrificing RvP for tactical reasons, not for a lack of performances.

 

[Drummer]

People are suggesting sacrificing RvP for tactical reasons, not for a lack of performances.

I actually understand that argument . . .

But can United afford to offload such a superb finisher? RVP could just as easily be our main forward and you could rotate Rooney, Kagawa, Mata, Wellbeck and Januzai . Suppose the big question is what tactics are gonna be deployed. .

As much as people are lambasting DM defencive attributes, I think his approach to games at OT this season, while disappointing, have shown he has a willingness to be more adventurous.

 

[bishblaize]

But can United afford to offload such a superb finisher?

Well we thought that about losing Ruud, and in the end if turned out okay. If anything it was his ability as a finisher that held us back. No-one thought Saha the better striker, but his mobility and strength in areas other than the 18 yard box that were crucial in bringing out the best in Rooney in 06-07.

That's not to say the same will happen with RvP, but there's a similarity between the situations.

 

[Julian Denny]

Fines lines in reality are blurred by grandstanding bullshit on forums like any other media. We have got to the Cl Qf and with two wins at home we would be strong favourites for top four which most people expected after losing the greatest manager ever who by all accounts overachieved last season.

He is clearly trying to boast a new signing who has had a tough start to his career at one of the biggest and high pressure clubs.

He might come good or be swallowed by the stature of the club as has happened before, if he does come good though he will deserve all the more credit because he certainly will have to do it without support from his club's fans.

Yes but where is there any shred of evidence that there is even a likelihood of Moyes coming good? In all honesty, given his background and what has happened since he joined United, what chance, percentage wise, would you give him of succeeding here at United? By "succeeding" I mean competing at the top level domestically and in Europe and actually landing major trophies on a regular basis. I am not comparing him with SAF or expecting the same level of achievement over a protracted period but this is what is expected of every United manager surely? What's more to create teams who play the United way and by so doing uphold the traditions of this great sporting institution. If you give him at least a 50% chance of achieving this then fair enough although I must say I am more than doubtful. If you think, on the balance of probabilities, that Moyes has less than a 50% chance of succeeding, then he has no future and should be gone as soon as possible.

 

[Drummer]

Well we thought that about losing Ruud, and in the end if turned out okay. If anything it was his ability as a finisher that held us back. No-one thought Saha the better striker, but his mobility and strength in areas other than the 18 yard box that were crucial in bringing out the best in Rooney in 06-07.

That's not to say the same will happen with RvP, but there's a similarity between the situations.

Ha, I used to make the same argument!

I just feel though it's kind of differant. Back then SAF had been building another team and united was on an upward curve. After thumping Wigan in league cup final without ruud, it signalled the end of his importance to the team.

His response to the challenge was typically Dutch. I remember him sauntering around Cardiff looking like a bold child. Possibly not too dissimilar to the actions of Rvp. I still question how unfit he has really been this season. While I don't honestly know, I do feel some of the comments about Rvp from Dutch colleagues have been approved by Rvp who never publically denounced things said in his name - doesn't like training etc.

That said, I take your point. I have wondered if letting go of a top big name would be a good statement of intent to fans and squad that DM is stamping his authority down.

 

[Drummer]

Yes but where is there any shred of evidence that there is even a likelihood of Moyes coming good? In all honesty, given his background and what has happened since he joined United, what chance, percentage wise, would you give him of succeeding here at United? By "succeeding" I mean competing at the top level domestically and in Europe and actually landing major trophies on a regular basis. I am not comparing him with SAF or expecting the same level of achievement over a protracted period but this is what is expected of every United manager surely? What's more to create teams who play the United way and by so doing uphold the traditions of this great sporting institution. If you give him at least a 50% chance of achieving this then fair enough although I must say I am more than doubtful. If you think, on the balance of probabilities, that Moyes has less than a 50% chance of succeeding, then he has no future and should be gone as soon as possible.

I personally think DM has the potential to succeed but like a young footballer showing signs of quality, it's hard to know for sure if he will realise it at this club.

I don't think we have seen the best of DM. I think this season has mainly been a learning curve and bedding down period. I don't believe its comparable with any other job in football which makes it harder to really analyse how good or bad DMs chances of succeeding are.

I don't think the board will blindly stick with him for anything other then if they feel he can build the club back up.

 

[stevoc]

That's just not true at all. Season after season they were bottom of the net spend table. They hardly bought players.

True though league position and wage bill are more closely linked, higher the wage bill higher the league finish on average.

Evertons wage bill was nothing compared to United, Chelsea ,City ,Arsenal etc. but he hardly had to work on a shoe string either, over the years if i remember correctly everton always came 8th-10th in the wages table.

Though credit where its due they did usually finish a few places higher in the actual table compared to their position in the wages counterpart.

 

[Drummer]

True though league position and wage bill are more closely linked, higher the wage bill higher the league finish on average.

Evertons wage bill was nothing compared to United, Chelsea ,City ,Arsenal etc. but he hardly had to work on a shoe string either, over the years if i remember correctly everton always came 8th-10th in the wages table.

Though credit where its due they did usually finish a few places higher in the actual table compared to their position in the wages counterpart.

And people convenient ignore that DM built the entire foundations of the club that marinez has moulded defence and attack so beautifully. In short Martinez Everton would not be so successful if moyes had t built such a solid team.

There's a lot in that to believe that even if he doesn't succeed at united he can at least leave a predecessor a strong squad.

 

[RoadTrip]

That's a good question, but one I don't have the answer to.

Seriously, Everton looked like they'd get relegated before Moyes took over.

That guy is talking shit. He's saying how Everton should finish 6th because of the players, the "merit" of the club, the stability, recruitment, staff etc.

What he forgets is that Moyes is the reason that infrastructure and stability is there in the first place. They were in the shit when he took over, and look where he took them.

He's stupid and so he thinks we all say MOyes did a good job because he managed to finish 6th. No.

We say he did a good job because he took a club that was in the gutter, and turned them into a club that can consistently finish 6th.

 

[Julian Denny]

I personally think DM has the potential to succeed but like a young footballer showing signs of quality, it's hard to know for sure if he will realise it at this club.

I don't think we have seen the best of DM. I think this season has mainly been a learning curve and bedding down period. I don't believe its comparable with any other job in football which makes it harder to really analyse how good or bad DMs chances of succeeding are.

I don't think the board will blindly stick with him for anything other then if they feel he can build the club back up.

I just don't think he's ever shown the sort of quality to succeed at United. However unlikely it seems now, that doesn't mean he wont in the future it just means he has to step up quite a few gears from his previous modus operandi and add a few new dimensions to it. Its asking a huge amount from him and somehow, based on what I've seen so far, it is almost certainly beyond him. He'll be given another season no doubt, mainly on the strength of the "give him time" philosophy" plus the ECL "run". If we have anything approaching a repeat of this season, in particular domestically, then the board, which doesn't include Fergie or Charlton, should be forced to take action. I just hope the delay in realising this mistake (if indeed it is one!) wont prove even more costly with potential replacements tied up elsewhere by that time. I also hope that the desire to give him more time is in no way affected by the substantial cost of paying out the balance of his contract should he be fired. Btw I would put his chances of succeeding at the required level no more than 30%.

 

[stevoc]

And people convenient ignore that DM built the entire foundations of the club that marinez has moulded defence and attack so beautifully. In short Martinez Everton would not be so successful if moyes had t built such a solid team.

There's a lot in that to believe that even if he doesn't succeed at united he can at least leave a predecessor a strong squad.

Possibly lets just hope we don't have to wait 11 years for its though.

Seriously though you are right Martinez has added attacking flair to the base Moyes created. But if im honest i do wonder why Moyes was never able to do that himself when he steadied the everton ship after 5 years, he really should have had them playing similar to how they are this season he had the time and platform to implement it but chose not to. Its probably the main worry i have with moyes i think his cautious nature will always dominate his tactics.

 

[NK86]

That guy is talking shit. He's saying how Everton should finish 6th because of the players, the "merit" of the club, the stability, recruitment, staff etc.

What he forgets is that Moyes is the reason that infrastructure and stability is there in the first place. They were in the shit when he took over, and look where he took them.

He's stupid and so he thinks we all say MOyes did a good job because he managed to finish 6th. No.

We say he did a good job because he took a club that was in the gutter, and turned them into a club that can consistently finish 6th.

And Moyes must be commended for that. But he was not able to build up any further than what he had achieved for about 4-5 years. A decent upper mid-table finish. He did not win a single trophy in his 10-11 years there and he managed 4th spot just once. So if Martinez outperforms Moyes' achievements in his first season with Everton, it will just re-emphasize that Moyes was only good enough to reach a certain point, beyond which he either did not worry too much or did not have the know-how to actually get it done.

While we are on that train of thought, SAF built an empire on a much larger and more successful scale than Moyes managed with Everton. Yet Moyes could not use or capitalize on that. What does that say about Moyes again? If you agree that it was always going to be difficult for Moyes in the first season despite the world-class infra we have, then you can only praise Martinez for what he has achieved with Everton this season and simply claim he is the better manager now in terms of adapting and getting the best out of what he has been provided.

 

[JohnDoe]

And Moyes must be commended for that. But he was not able to build up any further than what he had achieved for about 4-5 years. A decent upper mid-table finish. He did not win a single trophy in his 10-11 years there and he managed 4th spot just once. So if Martinez outperforms Moyes' achievements in his first season with Everton, it will just re-emphasize that Moyes was only good enough to reach a certain point, beyond which he either did not worry too much or did not have the know-how to actually get it done.

While we are on that train of thought, SAF built an empire on a much larger and more successful scale than Moyes managed with Everton. Yet Moyes could not use or capitalize on that. What does that say about Moyes again? If you agree that it was always going to be difficult for Moyes in the first season despite the world-class infra we have, then you can only praise Martinez for what he has achieved with Everton this season and simply claim he is the better manager now in terms of adapting and getting the best out of what he has been provided.

Bollocks. Let's see where Martinez is with Everton in 2-3-4 years, if he is at all, before drawing conclusions like that. He's hardly a football genius; yes, he did well to win the FA cup, but he led Wigan to relegation after all.

Some people put way too much emphasis on short-term (and individual) results. By that logic Di Matteo and Avram Grant are top European managers.