Moyes So Far!

[#07]

'We’d basically let the opposition have the ball, defend, and score on the counter-attack. We managed to finish fourth on the back of it but couldn’t make the next step the season after. Teams gave us a lot more respect the following season and we weren’t as capable on the ball. We weren’t able to break teams down and change our game' (Leon Osman).

I'm posting this article here because Osman says a lot of things I recognise in Moyes' football. I think about our lack of nous with the ball at times and it explains a lot of why we cant seem to break down sides at Old Trafford. It took Moyes something like 8 months to realise we cannot cross our way to victory against the Fulham's of this world. 8 months for Moyes to see we need to give our creative players games, and the freedom to go out and express themselves.

Based on what he's done in the past I fear Moyes reverting to type, dropping players like Shinji as soon as others are fit and trying to make Mata the next Valencia. I really hope Moyes has learned his lesson from our poor showings, and will keep selecting the players who have the creativity to unlock defences.

 

[Getsme]

Munich aside (a draw at home is now seen as a fantastic result) Moyes has failed every test thrown at him this season. The last two PL means have been meaningless friendlies in real terms, no pressure or no expectations meant the players could go into the game relaxed. Yes the results have been impressive, and the football has been good at times, but that fact remains, we will not get into the top 4 this season. Chances are we won't win the UCL, therefore he has failed big time this season, that's what he should be judged on.
I still believe he will be our manager next season, however I can't see how he will get us in the Champions League places, let alone challenge for the title.

 

[Mihajlovic]

Can't believe the praise Moyes is getting after finally starting Kagawa and playing Mata centrally. Something that the entire Caf and anyone else with basic common sense has been demanding for ages. You'd think the average caftard could take the job and wouldn't do worse than Moyes.

 

[Lawman]

Moyes has yet to show his true colours, and with luck he will. Either way, next season will almost certainly be his defining one.

Agree with this but I think giving the fact he signed Mata & then Rooney up makes me think It will be centred around them. If RVP, Welbeck or Kagawa don't adapt then they will be surplus to requirement.

 

[Wumminator]

'We’d basically let the opposition have the ball, defend, and score on the counter-attack. We managed to finish fourth on the back of it but couldn’t make the next step the season after. Teams gave us a lot more respect the following season and we weren’t as capable on the ball. We weren’t able to break teams down and change our game' (Leon Osman).

I'm posting this article here because Osman says a lot of things I recognise in Moyes' football. I think about our lack of nous with the ball at times and it explains a lot of why we cant seem to break down sides at Old Trafford. It took Moyes something like 8 months to realise we cannot cross our way to victory against the Fulham's of this world. 8 months for Moyes to see we need to give our creative players games, and the freedom to go out and express themselves.

Based on what he's done in the past I fear Moyes reverting to type, dropping players like Shinji as soon as others are fit and trying to make Mata the next Valencia. I really hope Moyes has learned his lesson from our poor showings, and will keep selecting the players who have the creativity to unlock defences.

I can't wait to see where Everton are next season. It's going to be hilarious.

Moyes will end the season in the league well now. Good on him. Last few performances are much better.

 

[Dracula]

Playing Kagawa full game means he is not in plans for the Bayern game - probably Fellaini again

Most of this praise today baffles me. If a class topper stopped studying, failed the pre tests and then barely scraped through the finals after some late effort, sorry but that is still a massive regression

I am not a Moyes hater just to clarify, it is simply that I think he is not good enough

Indeed. It simply can't paper over what happened against likes of:

West brom
Southampton
Stoke h (for most of game)
Stoke a
City a
Liverpool a
everton
Sunderland
Fulham
Spurs h
Newcastle h
City h
Oly a
Liverpool h

This is the worst Newcastle team we'll see for a while.

For people saying how glad they are to see moyes finally see what kagawa/mata/jan et al can do, it's worth noting they (except mata) were only picked because they won't be playing on Wednesday

 

[itso 7]

Still think he should e sacked at the end of the season because the decline has been unforgivably too steep . I do know that we need a number of new signings but I feel we could appoint a manager who can be more effective with this team and get them challenging with those anticipated additions whereas I feel the best Moyes could do, after buying his ''own team'' is a string of top four finishes to kep the moneymen happy . Put it simply there are far better candidates for the job and as long as that is the case we should be striving for better .

 

[Pexbo]

I can't wait to see where Everton are next season. It's going to be hilarious.

Moyes will end the season in the league well now. Good on him. Last few performances are much better.

In the Champions League?

 

[Cal?]

Can't believe the praise Moyes is getting after finally starting Kagawa and playing Mata centrally. Something that the entire Caf and anyone else with basic common sense has been demanding for ages. You'd think the average caftard could take the job and wouldn't do worse than Moyes.

I'm convinced that a lot of us will have done a better job than he has, not saying we're better managers, but we'd have got the United job quicker than he's done.

 

[LR7]

Where did he say this mate post match presser?

He thinks we have been too gung-ho? Jesus he can't really think that can he, most games at OT we've looked timid.

This team was built to go on the front foot and take the initiative in games, i feel moyes has tried to shackle them at times and set us up to stop the opposition instead of letting them express themselves, this may have caused the team to go into games in two minds, which might explain why we looked so pedestrian and devoid of creativity at times.

Gung-ho feck me, we're Manchester United.

"There's a bit of expectation at Old Trafford, a bit less pressure away. We've lost a few home games after being a bit gung ho." http://www.theguardian.com/football...manchester-united-premier-league-match-report

He needs to watch those games we lost back. We've looked abject and clueless not gung-ho.

 

[Cal?]

"There's a bit of expectation at Old Trafford, a bit less pressure away. We've lost a few home games after being a bit gung ho." http://www.theguardian.com/football...manchester-united-premier-league-match-report

He needs to watch those games we lost back. We've looked abject and clueless not gung-ho.

Can someone tell him to stop giving interviews, he shoots himself in the foot every time he opens his mouth.

 

[Hernandez - BFA]

Moyes played it well yesterday. Good substitutions to keep us alert, tactics were spot on etc.

I jumped ship from the Support-Moyes gang a couple of weeks ago, but I think I'm back on it now. If he shows performances like these, then he should be given the summer window. I'm certain we'll be in the top 4 next season - this squad is too good not to be there.

 

[Wumminator]

In the Champions League?

Yeah and we'll see how that works out with them.

Moyes did an incredible job at Everton. They're really going to struggle to maintain where they are.

 

[Amir]

"There's a bit of expectation at Old Trafford, a bit less pressure away. We've lost a few home games after being a bit gung ho." http://www.theguardian.com/football...manchester-united-premier-league-match-report

He needs to watch those games we lost back. We've looked abject and clueless not gung-ho.

There have been a couple of times we looked abject, clueless, and his solution was just throwing on more and more attackers. It did backfire against Everton and we ended up losing, but obviously the going gung-ho was not the problem.

 

[Cal?]

Moyes played it well yesterday. Good substitutions to keep us alert, tactics were spot on etc.

I jumped ship from the Support-Moyes gang a couple of weeks ago, but I think I'm back on it now. If he shows performances like these, then he should be given the summer window. I'm certain we'll be in the top 4 next season - this squad is too good not to be there.

You're on course entitled to your opinion, but if it's changed based on 2 wins in nothing league games over a week whilst we're still languishing in 6th place, it just goes to show how much you've lowered your expectation this season.

 

[Wumminator]

You're on course entitled to your opinion, but if it's changed based on 2 wins in nothing league games over a week whilst we're still languishing in 6th place, it just goes to show how much you've lowered your expectation this season.

Well yes obviously expectations have been lowered. We've been shit all year. I've sat in the stands and watched West Brom/Fulham/Everton take points off of us.

But we have turned it around somewhat since the Fulham game. (Even that game wasn't the worst ever - just lazy players) we're beating teams we should be beating and we're beating them comfortably. If it's taken Moyes this long to get that sorted so be it. If we carry it over into a new year we'll be a lot better than where we are now.

 

[Amir]

Well some members of the board no but the glazers have been in a situation like this before though a few times actually, they have sacked five coaches at the Buccaners including 2 under performing coaches in the last 2 years, waiting both times until the end of the season before terminating their contracts.

Now that doesn't mean they will definitely sack moyes, but those who believe that moyes not being sacked thus far means he's definitely here next season should consider the above information before speaking in absolutes.

Yeah, just in December they let go of both coach and General manager, but it's impossible to know what we can take from that to United. They've handled the club differently and while it was easier to just let the club people do their thing when you've got the capable hands of Gill and Fergie, they might not feel comfortable enough with their knowledge of the game to make such decisions without the support of the football people at the club.

That's why I think we're really in the dark here. It's not like with Abramovich, for instance, when you can pretty much guess how this is going to end.

 

[Amir]

But we have turned it around somewhat since the Fulham game. (Even that game wasn't the worst ever - just lazy players) we're beating teams we should be beating and we're beating them comfortably. If it's taken Moyes this long to get that sorted so be it. If we carry it over into a new year we'll be a lot better than where we are now.

If we can take this into next season then it will obviously make a big, huge difference. Can't help but fear, though, the many obstacles on the way. Rooney and Van Persie, Young and Valencia, the fact we're playing pretty much dead rubber games now. And obviously, the fact that between those better matches recently, we still had the Liverpool and City disasters.

 

[Wumminator]

If we can take this into next season then it will obviously make a big, huge difference. Can't help but fear, though, the many obstacles on the way. Rooney and Van Persie, Young and Valencia, the fact we're playing pretty much dead rubber games now. And obviously, the fact that between those better matches recently, we still had the Liverpool and City disasters.

Why not be happy that Mata is looking great, we've got a massive injection of cash in the summer and we're playing some lovely football.

Lets all be optimistic!

 

[Cal?]

Well yes obviously expectations have been lowered. We've been shit all year. I've sat in the stands and watched West Brom/Fulham/Everton take points off of us.

But we have turned it around somewhat since the Fulham game. (Even that game wasn't the worst ever - just lazy players) we're beating teams we should be beating and we're beating them comfortably. If it's taken Moyes this long to get that sorted so be it. If we carry it over into a new year we'll be a lot better than where we are now.

Guess who's fault it was that those teams have taken points off us?

Are we losing games we should be losing? At OT to both City and Liverpool by 3 goals?

Like I've said many times, in May 2013, the least anyone expected from this season would be CL qualification, and nothing has changed. It's his fault that our only way to qualify for it is to win it.

 

[Cal?]

Why not be happy that Mata is looking great, we've got a massive injection of cash in the summer and we're playing some lovely football.

Lets all be optimistic!

Because I'm not convinced that Moyes will put that cash to good use, and he's also likely to have driven out some of our better players by his actions this season.

I find it very hard to be optimistic with him in charge as he seems to pull out blunder after blunder.

 

[Amir]

Why not be happy that Mata is looking great, we've got a massive injection of cash in the summer and we're playing some lovely football.

Lets all be optimistic!

I wish I could, but I was never the type to just look at the positives and lose touch with reality...

 

[Wumminator]

Guess who's fault it was that those teams have taken points off us?

Are we losing games we should be losing? At OT to both City and Liverpool by 3 goals?

Like I've said many times, in May 2013, the least anyone expected from this season would be CL qualification, and nothing has changed. It's his fault that our only way to qualify for it is to win it.

Yeah it's shit, and yeah we have done worse than I thought we would have. But we've had a lot of bad luck as well. It's been a crazy season in the league but I think I'd rather give Moyes a longer time, especially as I think we've got gradually better as the seasons gone on. It was going to be hard this year, but Moyes proved he was a good manager at Everton I'm sure he'll get it right here as well.

 

[Wumminator]

Because I'm not convinced that Moyes will put that cash to good use, and he's also likely to have driven out some of our better players by his actions this season.

I find it very hard to be optimistic with him in charge as he seems to pull out blunder after blunder.

Well I very much doubt any of our best players will leave this summer. He's already signed one down to a long term contract and signed one of the others as well.

 

[Cal?]

Yeah it's shit, and yeah we have done worse than I thought we would have. But we've had a lot of bad luck as well. It's been a crazy season in the league but I think I'd rather give Moyes a longer time, especially as I think we've got gradually better as the seasons gone on. It was going to be hard this year, but Moyes proved he was a good manager at Everton I'm sure he'll get it right here as well.

I'm not sure bad luck explains it all, and I don't really think we've got any better, especially if against any of the teams near the top, we narrow lost to Liverpool early on in the season, got trashed recently. We held Chelsea early on, got beaten with them in 2nd gear this year.

All those years at Everton seems to have proven he's reached his level at Everton and he's so far turned us into Everton.

Like I said in the other thread, let's just agree to disagree and if the club decides to persist with him, I dearly hope you're right, because United's future I envisage under Moyes is not a pretty picture.

 

[Pexbo]

Yeah and we'll see how that works out with them.

Moyes did an incredible job at Everton. They're really going to struggle to maintain where they are.

So 10 years of mediocrity, because let's not dress it up as anything else, that's exactly what Moyes achieved at Everton, is better than occasionally excelling?

 

[Wumminator]

I'm not sure bad luck explains it all, and I don't really think we've got any better, especially if against any of the teams near the top, we narrow lost to Liverpool early on in the season, got trashed recently. We held Chelsea early on, got beaten with them in 2nd gear this year.

All those years at Everton seems to have proven he's reached his level at Everton and he's so far turned us into Everton.

Like I said in the other thread, let's just agree to disagree and if the club decides to persist with him, I dearly hope you're right, because United's future I envisage under Moyes is not a pretty picture.

If it's not turning out the way I hope he'll probably be gone next year. And we'll have enough money that we'll eventually rise again (Yay modern football!)

 

[Cal?]

Well I very much doubt any of our best players will leave this summer. He's already signed one down to a long term contract and signed one of the others as well.

I wasn't talking about the star players like Rooney, Mata or De Gea, even Moyes won't get rid of those.

But based on everything I've seen this season, there's every reason to believe the likes of Kagawa, Chicharito will be sold/want to leave whilst the likes of Valencia, Young & Cleverly stay.

 

[Wumminator]

So 10 years of mediocrity, because let's not dress it up as anything else, that's exactly what Moyes achieved at Everton, is better than occasionally excelling?

Ten years of what he did at Everton on that budget is certainly excelling. Behind Fergie he had the most points per pounds spent in the entire league. He's just had to learn a different skill set while he is here but I'm sure he'll figure it out

 

[Cal?]

If it's not turning out the way I hope he'll probably be gone next year. And we'll have enough money that we'll eventually rise again (Yay modern football!)

In my dreaded scenario of persisting with him, imagine this - he stays, the likes of Kagawa, Chicharito are sold, he signs Baines and a couple of other "decent" players on big fees and big wages, we fail to make the CL again, the new manager has a limited budget to sign replacements. Real Madrid come calling for De Gea & Mata...

 

[Cal?]

Ten years of what he did at Everton on that budget is certainly excelling. Behind Fergie he had the most points per pounds spent in the entire league. He's just had to learn a different skill set while he is here but I'm sure he'll figure it out

Surely that has to be Wenger?

 

[Wumminator]

Surely that has to be Wenger?

I saw a big graph with it when we hired him. It was something like that. It's what made me believe in him as a manager.

 

[Ducklegs]

Indeed. It simply can't paper over what happened against likes of:

West brom
Southampton
Stoke h (for most of game)
Stoke a
City a
Liverpool a
everton
Sunderland
Fulham
Spurs h
Newcastle h
City h
Oly a
Liverpool h

This is the worst Newcastle team we'll see for a while.

For people saying how glad they are to see moyes finally see what kagawa/mata/jan et al can do, it's worth noting they (except mata) were only picked because they won't be playing on Wednesday

Exactly this, and I've said it in another thread.

We've looked better when team selection has been forced on to Moyes through injury or lack of availability.
He hasn't had a choice in who he picks the last few games, and he's had to play players he either doesn't rate or doesn't understand how to use effectively and we've, if not looked entirely convincing, got the results that based on the performance of "his" team selections and tactics in the league this year, we almost certainly wouldn't of got otherwise.

 

[Ducklegs]

Ten years of what he did at Everton on that budget is certainly excelling. Behind Fergie he had the most points per pounds spent in the entire league. He's just had to learn a different skill set while he is here but I'm sure he'll figure it out

If you discount the 58 million pounds a year wages on his tiny squad then yes, he's had nothing to spend.

 

[Cal?]

I saw a big graph with it when we hired him. It was something like that. It's what made me believe in him as a manager.

Even if that was the case, being able to keep a club 5th-8th on a budget is very different from what United should be aiming to achieve.

 

[Empire]

Surely that has to be Wenger?

I saw a big graph with it when we hired him. It was something like that. It's what made me believe in him as a manager.

http://angryofislington.com/2013/05/07/is-arsene-wenger-underperforming-relative-to-wage-spend/

 

[Cal?]

http://angryofislington.com/2013/05/07/is-arsene-wenger-underperforming-relative-to-wage-spend/

Interesting, but this also completely ignores transfer fees, has someone done a combination chart?

 

[Brwned]

Why not be happy that Mata is looking great, we've got a massive injection of cash in the summer and we're playing some lovely football.

Lets all be optimistic!

I'd say there are some similarities to Liverpool last season. By January they still hadn't managed to win against a team in the top 10 and their record was scored 9, conceded 19 against them. He was getting criticised from all quarters for what he said in his interviews and for coming across as smug. The signings of Sturridge and Coutinho really injected a bit of life into them from January onwards and they carried on that form and confidence into next season. They still struggled against the top sides - in fact I don't believe they won a game against the top four last season and they obviously went out against Zenit in the EL - but they won the smaller games and picked up a fair bit of momentum.

We're in a similar position. Our record against the top six this year is poor (played 5, lost 4, drawn 1, scored 2 and conceded 11) but we are doing well against the rest (9 games, 7 wins, 1 draw, 1 loss, scored 22, conceded 4). Mata has obviously added an injection of quality into the team and he has brought the best out of Kagawa, similar to the effect that Sturridge and Coutinho had this time last year. Rodgers' Liverpool are an obvious example of how the results in a managers' first six months can be misleading and how it is possible for a team to turn it around completely.

People are talking about whether Moyes has stumbled upon the right system at United thanks to injuries but I believe something similar happened with Rodgers. Liverpool fans have happily admitted that he was stubborn and stuck to a rigid system at the beginning and that hindered them but then a quality player like Sturridge came in and forced him to find a way of accommodating him. He went through a phase of trying a 352 before ending up with that 4312 so it's not like he had a clear idea of how to get the best out of his best players right from the start, there was some experimentation and a "getting to know his players" phase. It took a while for him to get the best out of Gerrard too. In fact most Liverpool fans were saying it's time for him to be phased out and he is becoming a problem which is similar to what some of our fans are saying about van Persie.

People will obviously say that Rodgers and Moyes are completely different and Rodgers showed signs of progress and United are in a completely different position etc., but just to remind people what was being said about Rodgers last year. "He's out of his depth", "he's a mediocre manager", "Swansea have went up a level without him"...it's all the same stuff we've heard about Moyes.

Spoiler

I think he's out of his depth; worse, he doesn't even realise it.

He's young and stuff

But is he really the pedigree RAWK hyped him up? He's just a good manager strikes lucky with a ticking team at Swansea, the next guy after him didn't do too badly with what's left of him anyway.

We rate him correctly, mediocre, and it's just recently becomes funny because RAWK hypes him up to the rank of a clone of Mourinho 10 years younger

From Swansea to Liverpool, the jump is too brutal for such an inexperienced coach.After all, he's still learning things at this level but what a fecking arrogant twat he is.He gives interviews like he's been in the PL for over a decade.

They had 35 points after 22 games last season.

I liked Rodgers when he was at Swansea and thought he did a good job with the team. He has reversed my views on him since he has moved to Liverpool. Some of his comments are ridiculous and Liverpool's effectiveness on the field has declined. They have become more dependent on Suarez than they were last season.

Swansea meanwhile have become better than they were last season. They have sacrificed some possession numbers but have become a more lethal team. Their possession is actually counting towards more attacks and goals this term. It makes me believe that Rodgers is somewhat obsessed with his philosophy and buys too much into it. You cannot be rigid and have to adapt as a manager, which he seems unwilling to do. He is not playing to Liverpool's strength but forcing them to play to his.

Is Brendan Rodgers really that good?

Swansea don't seem to be doing any worse without him and Liverpool haven't really improved with him.

Swansea have gone up a good level or two without him.

Villa was a good choice for Lambert, he'll sort them out and progress. Liverpool was a poor choice for Rodgers, he's over-reached and will fail horribly.

I thought this was funny considering Revan's stance throughout this Moyes thread as well...

I don't think that they should give him 5 years, but 2 or 3 years are necessarily to judge a manager.

 

[bobbyf]

Ten years of what he did at Everton on that budget is certainly excelling. Behind Fergie he had the most points per pounds spent in the entire league. He's just had to learn a different skill set while he is here but I'm sure he'll figure it out

So he's shrewd with money, big deal. Where was the pressure to succeed at Everton? Not saying he didn't do well there, but this is a totally different job. He has not shown anything to prove he can get our team playing to their potential, in fact, his archaic tactics and negativity have stifled our attacking traditions and sent us backwards.

And his former team have been ahead of us for most of this season, who we finished way ahead of for the past 20 years. If that is not a catastrophic failure then what is?

 

[Stack]

peterstorey said: ↑
"Villa was a good choice for Lambert, he'll sort them out and progress. Liverpool was a poor choice for Rodgers, he's over-reached and will fail horribly."

hahahahaha