You're just attempting to muddy the waters to avoid the obvious interpretation, because you don't like the implications of the obvious interpretation.
Moyes So Far!
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You're just attempting to muddy the waters to avoid the obvious interpretation, because you don't like the implications of the obvious interpretation.
And where were his answers to the problems? When your team has a problem scoring goals for a full decade then the problem is slightly bigger than personnel.
Do you actually have a point? I'm not denying that he has done a poor job, or that he has spent money that he shouldn't. Does that change any of what I said above?
David Moyes' highest points total in his 11 years at Everton was 65 (his average points total was 57 and his average finish position 8th). It looks like Martinez will go past that in his very first season - they already have 60 points with 7 games left to go. And in what people keep claiming is the most difficult/competitive league in years.
Its also nowhere near that simple. Come on. Everybody knows this.
Indeed. Every other interview/piece he's written talked the squad up. If he wanted to say or even clearly hint there could be trouble ahead, he would have said so. People have been reading too much into that one line.
Again, I haven't denied that Martinez has improved them, simply pointed out that it's quite possible that Moyes would have improved them also, given that they'd have had more resources than he'd ever had before. As for the bolded part, people talk bollocks. There are just a lot of teams in or around the same level. Not a massive amount of actual quality, from what I've seen.
No no, it is. It's not rocket science.
Read Brophs' post. They have more money to spend.
I agree with you on that. A really good team would rack up a huge points total in this league.
Yeah, some fool gave them a £27.5m gift. They wouldn't have had that had Moyes stayed.
His answer was generally to try and wring more goals from the midfield, hence playing the likes of Cahill and/or Fellaini in advanced positions. And it worked pretty well.
After 31 games last season, for example, Everton had 49 goals. This season they have 49 goals after 31 games as well.
So if Moyes had been able to add a striker of Lukaku's quality to his squad, to compliment the goals from midfield, they could have been in a much stronger position.
And before you say 'Well why didn't he, eh?!', it's because getting a £20m+ striker in on loan is rare indeed, and Everton themselves likely won't have it next season.
Well yeah, admittedly that was a bit of an error, but the reality is that Fellaini was being heavily linked with a move anyway. They'd have gotten £20m from somewhere and because of the more level financial footing they're on, they could reinvest it in the squad.
I know you're just being glib but you know that the Fellaini sale wasn't the only windfall they have this season, compared to seasons past?
Also, there's every chance they would have got a fee close to that regardless. Fellaini was their best player and Everton usually end up selling on their best players when the big boys come knocking. We weren't the only club interested in signing Fellaini.
Goddamit! This fucking season!
I've finally made my mind up that Moyes isn't the man for the job but still end up defending the twat!
I've finally made my mind up that Moyes isn't the man for the job but still end up defending the twat!
As written. I'm agreeing with you, merely pointing out that any advantage Martinez had in terms of expenditure on the squad has similarly been enjoyed by Moyes.
One of the most damning things that Moyes has said so far in my opinion was before the Everton game: ""He has very good players there. I always told them they could play without a manager because they are very well organised. But Roberto is doing a really good job keeping it going." He's basically saying that in his 10 year tenure he set up a team that didn't even need a manager they were that well trained.
Firstly I saw this as an attack on Ferguson, as his inept season suggested United weren't left in an organised state. Secondly it totally disregards the fact that his old team are now playing a completely different style of Football under Martinez (and the "keeping it going" sounds like a sly dig at Martinez to me).
I agree with your post entirely btw.
Personally, I don't think the playing staff are the main reason Everton are playing better this season. From everything that's been reported in the press, I genuinely think the change of approach on the training ground and tactically has made a big difference to them.
Yes, having McCarthy over Fellaini is a huge plus, but I don't think it explains the change entirely.
Not really. His answer was to spend a fair amount of time and money on the likes Yakubu, Beattie, Saha, Ferguson, Beckford and others, none of which were very prolific. Cahill and Fellaini were tactical devices used to help them score, I'll agree on that, but it only further identifies his penchant for the percentage style of football. That style worked, but it only took them so far both aesthetically and in terms of results.
I've seen nothing so far at United to suggest that he knows how to create an attractive, imaginative, passing football team that embodies the essence of Manchester United. Nothing at Everton indicated this either, and lack of money can only be excused for so long.
The pretence that Everton are where they are primarily because of Romelu Lukaka is unjust.
I do too. In fact, I'd be fairly certain of it. But it is quite literally impossible to do well in the PL without a strong, balanced squad. Martinez has been able to add to a really strong spine of the team and, as you said, get them playing a more attractive style of football. That said, I think it's also likely, given the fact that Moyes put that spine in place and would have had money to spend, that they'd have improved also. Not in terms of style of play, most likely, as we've seen to our cost, but I suspect he'd have made them a better version of what they already were.
As Pogue said, this is bollocks. I'm somehow defending him and I'm not even in his fecking corner.
It's quite sad that what Sir Alex said in that same speech about leaving a competitive squad and seeing the club do very well in the future gets conveniently ignored by the Moyes brigade.
That's the part I doubt. I think Moyes' 11 years showed there is only so far that kind of football can take you. At some point you have to aspire to be better.
Bit unfair, no? They were regarded as having played some good football last season. More money means better players, means better results, IMO.
Yakubu cost £11m, scored 21 goals in his first season, then got an Achilles injury in his second, which kept him out for a year. He was never the same player again. But that wasn't a bad signing by any stretch. Beattie cost £5m, which was peanuts even then. Saha cost £500k - a miniscule amount - and was massively injury prone as we know, but still scored a fair few goals when he was fit. Ferguson was at the club when Moyes joined, and Beckford was a free transfer who was signed as a stop-gap, probably with selling him on for a profit in mind.
I don't think it's the sole factor, or perhaps even the main one. But his goals *have* been worth 12 points to them this season, and if they lose him for next season, they might not be anywhere near as effective (it'd be useful to look at Everton's average PPG this season with and without Lukaku, actually, which I might do later on).
Maybe. He's got more money and better players now - let's see the better football and results please.
I don't necessarily think what Everton do is relevant. For all we know Martinez might be having a purple season and next year they'll finish 16th. Moyes's record at Everton stands up.
Moyes: "You can never question the character of Manchester United. It's ingrained in the club & has shown its strength at times this year."
haha. It's so ingrained that at times it can be seen.
Anyhow. Now we've all had a few days to get down from the cloud of getting a draw at home to Bayern, which admittedly, was a decent result. Not good or great, but decent. I'm hoping he does the sensible thing and rests some players tomorrow. I don't know if Rooney needs to play or be rested though, as he's an odd case fitness wise.
haha. It's so ingrained that at times it can be seen.
Anyhow. Now we've all had a few days to get down from the cloud of getting a draw at home to Bayern, which admittedly, was a decent result. Not good or great, but decent. I'm hoping he does the sensible thing and rests some players tomorrow. I don't know if Rooney needs to play or be rested though, as he's an odd case fitness wise.
Well, yeah, that's the issue. It's been shit on a stick so far. So if it takes him 10 odd years to craft a team that can play good football, then we're really in trouble.
Just to be clear-I think standing by Moyes as Fergie said to do is not incompatible with believing that Moyes is largely (but not solely) responsible for this season's disappointing results.
Seems like the two get conflated. Whether Fergie's remarks show that he expected things to get bad or not-he said stand by your manager. There's no ambiguity there. But-I think it's hard to argue that Moyes has done a good job this year, even grading him on a curve.
Seems like the two get conflated. Whether Fergie's remarks show that he expected things to get bad or not-he said stand by your manager. There's no ambiguity there. But-I think it's hard to argue that Moyes has done a good job this year, even grading him on a curve.
Fair point in regards to Yakubu. Still, it's a decade-long worth of evidence that suggests Moyes never found the striker. Money or no money, it's still a failing on his part. Perhaps if they were a more positive side then the likes of Beattie, Ferguson and Beckford would have scored more goals.
I do think Lukaku will be a miss if and when he leaves, but let's no go overboard. He can look fairly terrible in terms of his all round game, and it isn't beyond Martinez to bring in a striker and get them scoring regularly. We'll have to wait and see on that one, though.
We've seen much more positive sides come and leave the Premier League. In Everton's position, strapped for cash over the years, being more gung ho would have earned them lower positions at the hands of less naive teams.
Martinez is doing well. It's possible to hold that belief, and maintain that Moyes did a great job with Everton as well. Which he did. Could he have done better? Maybe. What other clubs in Everton's position have made the jump across the chasm? Tottenham flirted with 4th place for a while, and is back in the pile. Newcastle? Liverpool (until this season)? Let's not deceive ourselves.
It's quite sad that what Sir Alex said in that same speech about leaving a competitive squad and seeing the club do very well in the future gets conveniently ignored by the Moyes brigade.
Yeah well, there's a lot of convenient ignoring going on, and it isn't exclusive to the so-called Moyes apologists. Every time there's a serious discussion here, people arbirtraily decide that only they know 'the truth' so there's precious little objectivity to be found.
I'd judge Martinez after three or four seasons. His team is showing the best of Moyes (resilience, fitness, organization) with the best of Martinez (attacking philosophy, risk taking). However looking at Wigan's generally shambollic defending and inconsistency under Martinez, there's no guarantee that he'll be able to build a new team with those same Moyes attributes.
Or maybe he will, at which point he'll deserve even more credit.
When people purport to know the truth, the pretentious git in me asks, What would Derrida do?
He'd probably write a whole series of indecipherable word games, leading to an entire labyrinth (see Foucault et al) of wilfully inscrutable 'technic'. Ahem.
True. Although I was thinking more along the lines of he would critique the notion of the existence of a simple, identifiable truth.
And he'd be right, of course.
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