I guess you could say where SAF walked in and had to sort out alcoholism and unprofessionalism, Moyes had to ween us off dependence on SAF. They arent exactly comparable situations, but at the same time a lot of people expected this season to be pretty bad. Most people did, in fact, it is more a case of misunderstanding just how bad it would be. Again, this has all been said a million times before. And the excuse is pretty old now. That is what I am looking forward to most about next season, that excuse (which I think originally had some validity) will have expired and if things dont improve I will feel more comfortable / fair in venting my anger at the manager - nothwistanding this suggestion that 1 year isnt enough, and that it actually takes 3-4 to get to grips with the job.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
- Start date
- Status
Again, Fergie took over a team that had only finished outside of the top four once in the previous 7 seven seasons, and then finished outside of the top four with them in three of his first four full seasons - including an 11th and a 13th, after spending what was big money for the day. We simply *did* get worse at first.
Moyes has inherited a club in much better shape, of course, but has the added disadvantage of replacing a quarter-century legend - with all the psychological ramifications of that, and the huge system-shock that it entails - rather than Ron Atkinson.
Whilst he tries to be polite and somewhat complimentary this from Naismith is telling imo:
Moyes is hands on and doesn't like anyone not pulling their weight which is fair enough but he's hardly ever going to revolutionise or modernise the way we play football. Those comments echo similar sentiments from a variety of Everton players over the course of this season.
from an interview with Naismith on the Guardian website.
Moyes is hands on and doesn't like anyone not pulling their weight which is fair enough but he's hardly ever going to revolutionise or modernise the way we play football. Those comments echo similar sentiments from a variety of Everton players over the course of this season.
I take your point. But from a personal perspective I'm disheartened by how things have gone, not necessarily the results (although they have been shocking) but that there's little evidence of any 'problems' being addressed, or even beginning to be addressed. Had he came in and spent a year at the club under the old set up to find out and then address the issues then I'd have more leniency towards him. But the changes we've seen him make in terms of the senior coaching staff didn't seem to be out of need for change but an arbitrary want to.
In terms of how we play, it just seems as if he has his way and that's it. He doesn't seem to adapt or take anything else on board other than what he wants to do. Of course that's his privilege, but when you see things like moaning of an ageing squad then playing 40 year old Ryan Giggs, or criticising the scouting set up after spending his time at the club targeting two of his former players, Mata and Fabregas (who are hardly unknowns) and then you hear murmurs about the youth set-up then he fails to give any of them a chance this season, not even in the league cup, it does make me wonder if he actually is trying to 'sort out' anything of if the whole ' there's things to sort out' stuff is just being used as an excuse.
I know there's only so much we can tell as outsiders but even little things such as acknowledging maybe it's the set-up that costs us points in games, still hasn't been addressed, months into is tenure. We only found what worked against Bayern Munich by the "luck" of Van Persie's injury.
Imagine Winston Churchill had promised not “blood, toil, tears, and sweat,” but to “hopefully try and work hard to make life difficult for Mr. Hitler.”
I enjoyed that article, thanks.
Last edited:
Sorry guys, this is in the, "there's nothing new to say, but not everyone has said it" category.
Of course stepping into the United job is daunting, and we had every reason to expect Moyes to climb a learning curve. That's why most reasonable folks would have been perfectly happy with 4th place and a decent cup run while United exhibited a David Moyes style of play.
That just hasn't happened, IMO. Moreover, if the problem is Moyes getting his hands around the job, then we should see improvement in his comfort level in being United's manager-and I haven't seen any evidence of that. In fact, one thing that I give Moyes credit for-is his consistency this year. Only problem is that he's been consistently mediocre as United's manager.
So-here's how I attribute blame for finishing outside of the top 4:
Aging squad: 10%
Moyes's man management: 40%
Moyes's in-game tactics/substitutions: 30%
Players adapting to a new manager after Fergie: 10%
Unknown/other/stuff happens: 10%
Looks like we'll never agree on the distribution of blame. Not saying an aging squad and following Fergie aren't factors, but to me they're not the predominant reasons for this year's disappointing results.
Of course stepping into the United job is daunting, and we had every reason to expect Moyes to climb a learning curve. That's why most reasonable folks would have been perfectly happy with 4th place and a decent cup run while United exhibited a David Moyes style of play.
That just hasn't happened, IMO. Moreover, if the problem is Moyes getting his hands around the job, then we should see improvement in his comfort level in being United's manager-and I haven't seen any evidence of that. In fact, one thing that I give Moyes credit for-is his consistency this year. Only problem is that he's been consistently mediocre as United's manager.
So-here's how I attribute blame for finishing outside of the top 4:
Aging squad: 10%
Moyes's man management: 40%
Moyes's in-game tactics/substitutions: 30%
Players adapting to a new manager after Fergie: 10%
Unknown/other/stuff happens: 10%
Looks like we'll never agree on the distribution of blame. Not saying an aging squad and following Fergie aren't factors, but to me they're not the predominant reasons for this year's disappointing results.
Moyes has said that he almost underestimated the task at hand. Almost as if he came in thinking everything would be perfect for him and he could make a few tweaks here and there. Naivety, out of his depth or was he simply sold a dream? I'm not really too sure.
There's some good stuff in there.
While we're all putting the boot in, this piece is also damning. Especially seeing as it's based around one of the most unsettling aspects of Moyes tenure, the improvement in Everton since he left.
http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/tacticsandanalysis/id/2812?cc=5739
This section, in particular, is seriously depressing.
Under David Moyes, Everton were often dangerous, but inflexible going forward. They concentrated on working the ball into wide positions repeatedly with quick switches of play, and crossed the ball frequently.
There was often a lack of a Plan B, something rather overlooked because what is often considered the ‘Plan B’ for technical passing sides, crossing the ball, was actually Everton's Plan A
Another problem is that Moyes is too determined to respond to the opposition's strengths, rather than seeking to exploit their weaknesses. There was a great example in 2010 when Moyes' Everton travelled to White Hart Lane to play Harry Redknapp's Spurs, and every step of the way, Moyes responded to his opposite number. He played two right-backs in tandem to stop Gareth Bale, and played Johnny Heitinga in midfield to stop his countryman Rafael van der Vaart.
But at half-time Redknapp moved Bale moved to the right, and van der Vaart to the left -- so Moyes ditched both Coleman and Heitinga, brought on Tony Hibbert, shifted Phil Neville's position, and made sure the two dangerous opponents were still being marked, but by players more comfortable in the positions Bale and van der Vaart were now playing in. That, already, was two substitutions down. This is just one match, but it's a microcosm of Moyes' thinking at Everton -- he reacted in a defensive sense, rather than changing the game offensively.
Or, as Fergie himself says, 'no manager is prepared for the job at Old Trafford'.
It's likely Fergie, drawing on his own early experiences, did anticipate what has happened so far, at least to an extent.
Hence the deliberate focus in his retirement speech on 'standing by your manager during bad times'.
I'd say naivety in the sense that he clearly didn't anticipate a learning curve. It evidently never crossed his mind that someone who had never managed at this level might need to spend a season or two getting to grips with the job. Instead the coaching staff was dismissed and his own men brought in. Now this was of course his privilege but you don't need to have 20-20 hindsight to spot the potential issues in that.
It's a funny one, Arsenal got 73 points last year and then did well this year. The turnaround in football can be quick therefore I just think we've got to trust the board to get it right. They know what's going on behind the scenes and we've just got to trust them to get it right, they will understand some reasons for failure and they will understand Moyes' plans to sort it out, if it makes sense then I don't mind giving him time.
The question is whether he has the skill to perform at the highest level, the skill to become a world class manager and surely the board would assess this. If they think he does then there is nothing wrong with time however if they don't think he does then it's obvious he must be sacked.
This season without a doubt has been a disaster. But I don't think that should be the focal point in sacking him, the focal point should be whether he will achieve top four next season. If the board are not sure of this then get somebody who will because the talent and character of the squad is still strong and worthy of challenging for trophies.
Yes, that anecdote you quoted about the blood draining from Moyes' face was the other bit that really jumped out.
The thing is, SAF is not for turning. Get used to this folks.
Another debate which has been done to death, but people are just presuming that Everton wouldn't have continued to improve had he stayed, even though their points total had been increasing year on year for the previous 3. And with a fast maturing Barkley and an on-loan £20m+ striker, who knows where they would have been this season under him?
I certainly wouldn't have been surprised to see them on a points total similar to what they're on now.
I see your point about winning it. And judging by the other night it's not a complete impossibility (similar situation to when Chelsea won it), cos playing 9-10 men behind the ball is probably the only tactic Moyes knows cos he can't get anything else right. Of course Bayern are the better side but still, he's just incapable of getting the best out of our team in the league or as an attacking force.
And another thing, forgetting Europe for a minute, what if we finish behind Everton in the league this season? If that is not a complete and utter failure, then I don't know what is. How could any supporter justify him staying on after that? No excuses about 'weak' and 'old' squad or luck, injuries would wash.
That's almost gratuitous, and the fixed result of preconceptions & hindsight; writers virtually always look for the deeper meanings in what may actually be, well, nothing of true import. Besides, how on earth was Moyes supposed to be 'in control' of what was - quite obviously - a completely unexpected turn of events? For me, his reaction speaks of his natural modesty - he didn't quite believe that he'd be considered for the job (which, I concede, is somewhat telling)...a job which didn't even seem available until SAF called him.
The comparisons with Sir Alex end upon the realisation that they are two completely different individuals. "Oh, well Fergie got point total X and Y in years two and four."
It's irrelevant. Sir Alex Ferguson was and is a very special, talented, imaginative man. David Moyes is not him, never was and never will be. Drawing comparisons is futile.
It's irrelevant. Sir Alex Ferguson was and is a very special, talented, imaginative man. David Moyes is not him, never was and never will be. Drawing comparisons is futile.
This quote, IMO opinion has been misconstrued by some to mean that Fergie expected Moyes to struggle this year. I'm not so sure-I assume Fergie was expecting that Moyes would be here for a while, and so he would have some rough times during his long and otherwise successful tenure.
Regarding this year, it seems as though Fergie thought he left Moyes with a good squad, and if reports are to be believed, that Moyes would keep around some experienced hands to assist in a challenging (not impossible) transition.
That Fergie's quote has been used to speculate about the state of this year's squad, Fergie's expectations for this year, etc. is a little silly, IMO.
It's disturbing. Naismith really tries to compliment Moyes, he clearly likes him but in the end he couldn't help himself, he just had to mention Moyes' dinosaur methods.
No, the context of the quote makes it quite clear what he meant. Here's exactly what he said:
The only period when we ever really had 'bad times' under Fergie was during his early years. And it is surely no coincidence that he references those early 'bad times' right before he implores the fans to stand by the new manager.
Last edited:
Yet another damning quote from an Everton player. With an increasingly out of date Ferguson on his way out, the club had the perfect opportunity to really modernise our approach, and in my opinion, get even more out of the individuals on the squad on a personal development level. What we decided to do was look for a mini-Ferguson, without the attacking verve, and actually employ a better version of Sam Allardyce and Martin O'Neil. I just laugh at the farce these days, however, these kind of comments speak volumes.
It's all speculation, but SAF's remarks hint that he had little faith in the squad to overcome his departure (the remarks hardly suggest that SAF believed Moyes would be unsuccessful - why would he choose him, if that were the case?). Perhaps SAF was thinking of the time he announced his retirement, previously, and things swiftly went to hell (before he changed his mind & stayed on).
Some good points there, his actions definitely seem to be contradicting his statements.
Putting my conspiracy theory hat on i think his statements about ageing squad and especially the scouting and academy are nothing more than an effort to buy himself time.
The story of when ferguson started and we only had 4 scouts in manchester etc. and the youth team was in a mess etc. is well known, i think he trying to make people believe hes emulating fergusons first few years. Charlton and edwards always said SAF was given time because they could see the work he was doing behind the scenes with the scouting and youth.
I think moyes probably doesn't entirely understand whats going wrong with the first team or how to go about fixing it, so is saying and doing everything he can think of to buy himself time to try to figure it out.
I think hes trying to convince the board that if they give him enough time they will have another Ferguson on their hands when the sad reality is hes much more likely to be another Sexton.
I think many read too much into this--if he meant to say that he expected challenges during the transition-he would have said so-he had many opportunities to make this point. Has he ever said as much? Not to my knowledge.
According to Fergie his OT speech was off the cuff-and so I'm not sure that we can assume he meant things would be rough this year. Maybe he was referring to his initial problems in Europe, or when dealing with popular players who, for whatever reason the manager decides must go. The point is that Fergie could have thinking of many different types of "bad times" besides a drop from 1st to 7th in the first year of Moyes's tenure.
Assuming such is one interpretation of his extemporaneous remarks on the day he was saying goodbye to a job he held for 26 years. I'm not sure there's one simple interpretation.
That may well be so. It's human nature to seek out one, overriding reason as a solution to 'puzzles' when, perhaps, there are in truth many factors responsible.
He also said that. People read far too much into that speech. By his own admission, they were "ramblings." He said what came to him naturally and there was certainly no cryptic messages beyond what was just an honest, 71 year old bloke that was on the verge of tears. People live and breathe by that daft speech.
I'm pretty sure there is a simple/obvious interpretation, and that you just don't want to see it, because accepting the simple/obvious interpretation essentially involves having to say 'Well I don't care what Fergie thinks. Moyes is the wrong guy, doesn't deserve time, and should be sacked'.
Which is fine, and many will admit that's exactly what they do think (they're United fans, not Fergie fans per se). For others though, I think it entails too much cognitive dissonance.
RAWK ahoy!
Agree it's been done to death. This whole thread is ludicrously repetitive but bear with me, I'm coming at this from the opposite side to my usual stance!
Even if we accept that Everton would have improved under Moyes continued stewardship, the fact they didn't disimprove is slightly concerning. By all accounts, they're playing a much more attractive brand of football while replicating their points haul from last season. I'm sure most Everton fans would be delighted with this. Plus, we have the fact that a lot of us have been comforting ourselves that losing a manager as integral to the fabric of the club as SAF has created a situation which no successor could cope with. Meanwhile, we have Everton going from strength to strength after losing their manager of the last 10 years. Either Moyes wasn't as vital an element of the Everton he created as Fergie was at United, or he's less capable of managing a transition than the bloke who replaced him on merseyside. Whichever way you look at all of these events, Moyes doesn't come out of it well.
A manager moves clubs. The club he leaves improves and the club he joins significantly declines. It's not rocket science.
The factors behind these changes in fortunes are a little more nuanced than you imply but you also can't ignore the fact that Everton are currently ahead of us in the fecking league table!
Nah, it's more complex than that. Sir Alex was running a Sunday league club, bereft of facilities, structure and iPads.
I had to laugh this morning when I read that Martinez intends to fully rebuild the Everton training ground. Not perfect after all?
With that kind of logic, I feel much safer with the knowledge you're not a rocket welder, not to talk of being an actual rocket scientist.
There are other factors involved. The new tv deal, for one, which gave them a financial clout they haven't had in a while. Add to that selling Fellaini and Anichebe and they have another £34m odd, which has allowed them to strengthen the squad. I'm not suggesting that Martinez hasn't done well, or that Moyes would necessarily have achieved the same, but I don't think it's so simple as saying Martinez good, Moyes bad.
But nor is 50 odd games a huge sample, especially not when we're talking about a manager who was explicitly appointed with the proviso that he be given time to build a side over the medium to long term. Pretty much everyone associated with the club keeps saying this.
Doesn't mean it'll ultimately come off, but that has obviously been the plan.
Then it strikes me that Moyes was the wrong choice, being a close personal friend of Ferguson and someone likely to just persist with "Fergusonism".
We needed a complete change of focus for the club, a new manager with new ideas to try something new.
The debate has been done to death on here on both sides, armed with the little snippets from the press, "hear say", armchair psychological evaluations... I'm just glad the club doesn't take our opinions on here into account either way. Because at the end, it's mostly babble and bullshit being spouted.
A big factor could be Lukaku, whose goals have been worth 12 points to Everton this season (in terms of turning draws into wins, and losses into draws).
If they don't keep him, miss out on the CL, and can't replace him with someone of a similar quality, will they be able to replicate this seasons success?
These are the kinds of problems Moyes had to deal with for ten years at Everton.
The juxtaposition of Fergie's remarks in which he references bad times, and then says to support the manager has a simple and obvious interpretation, so you claim. Here's the text of the 2nd Amendment to the U.S. Constitution--where two clauses are juxtaposed.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Not to turn this into a constitutional debate, but the meaning of this juxtaposition has been argued for over 200 years. All I'm saying is that one cannot always draw an inference from two juxtaposed clauses in a sentence.
You're right it's not as simple but...remind me how much has Moyes spent.
- Status