Exactly, people constantly ignore that Moyes is the only reason Everton have a top 8 level squad, and that Martinez was a transfer disaster at Wigan who hasn't proven much better thus far at Everton with Kone, Alcaraz, Traore, Joel and Aiden McGeady among his astute purchases. We'll see how well he really does in the next 2/3 years, when Jagielka/Distin begin to show their age and he has to renew the squad and create a new defence.
Moyes So Far!
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Exactly, people constantly ignore that Moyes is the only reason Everton have a top 8 level squad, and that Martinez was a transfer disaster at Wigan who hasn't proven much better thus far at Everton with Kone, Alcaraz, Traore, Joel and Aiden McGeady among his astute purchases. We'll see how well he really does in the next 2/3 years, when Jagielka/Distin begin to show their age and he has to renew the squad and create a new defence.
It's also worth pointing out that before this particular stunt the media were keen to portray the entire United faithful as being behind Moyes, when it was patently not the case. If nothing else it has shown that some of us aren't happy with Moyes and are prepared to put our opinion across if given the chance. Whether the plane itself was a good idea is a moot point but the public expression of the sentiment is welcome to counter the white noise from the club.
As I've mentioned already match going fans need to give the best chances of winning by producing a good atmosphere. Openly being hostile to the team manager is hardly going to help the team. Internet is different where people are free to voice their opinion without affecting teams displays.
Do we really want the fans during a game to go the Blackburn route with their abuse of Steve Kean? The board don't need fans to tell them everything is not great by just witnessing results and performances.
United fans showed today in public we can be classy by not showing dissent to a global audience. What we think in private is another matter.
It was mostly cleared around game time.
The idea that the board are unaware of what is going on within the fan base at the moment strikes me as perfectly ridiculous. Same goes for the media. They're all perfectly aware of the fact that many United fans are anything but happy with the way things are going. I remember journos reporting on the grumblings on forums like this one months ago. And recently the media have commented explicitly on the lack of pro-Moyes chants at Old Trafford - "twenty..." being sung against Liverpool and City rather than the Moyes songs, etc.
And, yet again: does anyone actually think that the board will be happy to let Moyes fumble about in the dark forever just as long the match going fans refrain from booing him? To sum it up, I don't understand what the bloody problem is. As Sultan says, the match going fans focus on supporting the team rather than hurling abuse at Moyes. It probably means they are less irate than some people on here, yes - but it doesn't mean they're blindly worshiping David Moyes.
And, yet again: does anyone actually think that the board will be happy to let Moyes fumble about in the dark forever just as long the match going fans refrain from booing him? To sum it up, I don't understand what the bloody problem is. As Sultan says, the match going fans focus on supporting the team rather than hurling abuse at Moyes. It probably means they are less irate than some people on here, yes - but it doesn't mean they're blindly worshiping David Moyes.
No doubt, he did very good work to help make them a PL constant, but I'm talking about now. Everton fans certainly don't want him back. Hell, Southampton sure as hell wouldn't have him. Moyes is the perfect man for a Norwich, a Stoke, but Manchester United is one of the biggest football clubs in the world. It's quite amazing that he got the job in the first place. He's so under-qualified, not to mention underwhelming. He's had unbelievable luck in getting this job. I'm struggling to think of a manager who has experienced such serendipity as Moyes.
Hypocrisy may be too strong a word IMO. I think it's more disingenuous if 90 percent of OT fans want Moyes out (which is what the last Caf poll showed). And I think the visual of 75,000 people singing Moyes's name will be interpreted by the media as unwavering support for Moyes. Maybe a smart editor will do a piece on the disconnect between Internet forums and match day support-but I expect the write-up about today to take the angle of fans' defiant support for an embattled Moyes.
You would be surprised how shit was SAF when he arrived here. Fortunately for United and us this club is not a democracy and was ruled from a start by elders such as Busby and few other of his kind.
I may agree with your opinion in 2-3 years when there will be no significant impact. Now it seems like Moyes is experimenting and checking who will stay and who might have another chance to prove some football abilities.
Traffic was ok, thought we would get caught up in it but it didn't make an impact. I didn't notice it until the guy next to me pointed out the empty seats, most of the them were in North and South lower. Bayern is sold out so it should be a full house unless STH don't turn, keep in mind that it's a midweek game so a lot of people myself included will be missing it due to work.
We've got a massively problem with the fact that a) there are 3 or 4 teams who are markedly better than us and b) when we play them, we play like we know it.
But...
I've just been looking at our record since the Fulham match, and we've actually got a little sniff of consistency going against the lower teams, which is something at least. 11 scored and 1 conceded in 4 wins and a draw (which of course was away to Arsenal) is much more like what we'd hope to see and a big improvement on what we were managing in the first 5 or 6 weeks of 2014. It's a start, anyway.
But...
I've just been looking at our record since the Fulham match, and we've actually got a little sniff of consistency going against the lower teams, which is something at least. 11 scored and 1 conceded in 4 wins and a draw (which of course was away to Arsenal) is much more like what we'd hope to see and a big improvement on what we were managing in the first 5 or 6 weeks of 2014. It's a start, anyway.
Moyes isn't the only reason at all. He required the right support to be able to stabilise Everton. He also had some stinking duds in the transfer market. To suggest Martinez was a transfer disaster at Wigan is totally off beat. You do realise the budget he had? Players like McCarthy, Kone, Jordi Gomez, Maloney etc were disasters? No of course they weren't. He won the FA Cup with those transfer disasters remember that.
His Everton side are 5th in the table within touching distance of a Champions League place, and playing some fantastic football. His squad building at Wigan was miraculous so I'm pretty sure he will be able to transmit that to Everton. He is already building for the future with his budding of Barkley and Stones, the progress of Coleman and the purchases of McCarthy and McGeady (a good one at that).
He knows a good player, and he knows a useful one. More importantly he is excellent at coaching those players, and that is the most important ability he possesses.
We didn't have many problems against the bottom half of league. It's the top half of the league that's killing us.
And I don't think 3-4 teams are markedly better than us. They all have squads with many flaws, they just concentrate on their strengths.
Probably only City has a markedly better squad.
But we'd be in a much mroe respectable position (ie 4th) if it wasn't for Fulham, Stoke (x2), Cardiff, West Brom, Newcastle. We used to base title wins on this - be the best against the bottom 14 and we can get away with being a bit flat against the big guns, as we more often than not were (though nowhere near this shit).
There's only one way to judge how good a team is, and that is on how they are performing. And City, Liverpool and Chelsea are markedly better than us.
Stoke and Newcastle are top half.
Well in that case then Arsenal, Everton and Tottenham too.
I wouldn't say any of those are markedly better...
Arsenal have certainly shown themselves more able to play great stuff, and for the first half of the season I'd say they were markedly better. But they're also capable of too many total horror shows... you think we're shit against the big teams? At least we normally limit the damage to 3 or 4!
Similarly Spurs, only their best stuff is less frequent. In fact I'd say they are the closest matched team to us in the league.
Everton are the most consistently good performers of any of the four and rarely get humiliated. Definitely ahead of us, but not by miles.
A Bob Cass story on Moyes' future and Fergie's role (or lack) in it
I'm really not a fan of the "Everton is only good because of Moyes", I would also rather agree with Moyes hold them back in the last seasons and Martinez brought them to a new tactical level. Yeah Moyes did some good and important things at Everton in his first seasons, but then they stagnated and he was not good enough to deliver more than 6-8th places. Martinez changed their whole approach and playstyle, he added new players, for me they looking like another team, not comparable with Moyes's Everton and I would bet a huge amount of money that Moyes would be again only on a 7th or 8th place with them.
Also it's not comparable with for example Bayern and van Gaal, who changed their apporach, did some major changes in their first team (Müller, Badstuber, Alaba first team, transformed Schweinsteiger into a CM), from which they could continue and got better and better. Martinez's football is so far away from Moyes's idea to play football, including the comments from him or Barkley, it's for me definitive more a "Moyes hold them back". Martinez is a winner, he arrived at Everton and said he wants the 4th place and people laughed at him and now it's not that unlikely anymore. Moyes on the other side compared his 7th place at Everton with a CL title.
Also the whole "operating on a laughable budget" is not true for me. Everton were pretty there where they should be in the last years, Klopp and Simeone are doing insane things with little money, but Moyes? Everton is not the small, shit and poor club, like some people suggest, I have respect for what he did in his first seasons there and the fans should be too, but after that he lacked the tactical skills to achieve more. At Everton that was ok, but at a big club like United? And you don't have to look at our season to see that, 11 years at Everton are enough for me.
Who knows what would have happened with Barkley with Moyes in charge. Martinez played him as a starter and he showed him that he is good enough, Maybe he could already made an impact last year, maybe Moyes was absolutely right with how he handled him, who knows that, it's like saying Januzaj would have been brilliant with Fergie too and Moyes shouldn't get any credit for his season.
Fergie was shit? He was never shit. He won a european title with Aberdeen, broke the Celtic/Rangers reign in Scotland and he improved a useless United massive in his first 2 seasons. He showed enough of his ability to deserve the time even in a bad spell and that's the biggest difference between him and Moyes, the second hasn't delivered anything so far, but still always wants time. A lot of new coaches are at big teams since last summer and none of them needed their own 11 players, none of them needed more than 2 windows to add players they wanted and none of them needed more than one season to show us improvements or their plan/vision. None of them is looking for excuses every week.
What makes David Moyes so special?
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Fantastic post. Tired of reading posts how Moyes was so amazing with Everton when in the next 3 weeks Martinez will break his all time record of points (with 5 games left to play). He was good for a few years there but he couldn't make the next jump so it was great for them that he left. Now they are in a much better position.
“A lot of the stuff I do is a building plan – I’m here to build a team which I’ve done in the past: take it forward and introduce young players, that is what I am trying to do,” Moyes said.
Guardiola also inherited a daunting legacy and, if anything, Bayern have improved, but Moyes is quick to stress the differences.
“He had a year of preparation before he took the job in Munich,” Moyes said. “It gave him the chance to learn German, watch the games, so I think he did take over maybe a bit more prepared and ready. Also, with respect, he took over the champions of Europe which means they had a lot of things in place.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...-United-in-awe-of-Bayern-Munichs-success.html
So what did Moyes take over, a Sunday league side? Did Fergie leave nothing in place..?
Guardiola also inherited a daunting legacy and, if anything, Bayern have improved, but Moyes is quick to stress the differences.
“He had a year of preparation before he took the job in Munich,” Moyes said. “It gave him the chance to learn German, watch the games, so I think he did take over maybe a bit more prepared and ready. Also, with respect, he took over the champions of Europe which means they had a lot of things in place.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...-United-in-awe-of-Bayern-Munichs-success.html
So what did Moyes take over, a Sunday league side? Did Fergie leave nothing in place..?
Plucky little David Moyes
Utter nonsense.
Moyes telling me he didn't watch us in the last 10 years? He didn't speak English?
Can't decide if that would be a good or bad thing from a wanting Moyes out point of view at least.
Shit, did we never give Moyes english lessons?
The way he keeps trying to paint it as if he took over some shitty little team in disarray is disgusting. Horrible little man.
Isn't Bob Cass a decent enough journo?
Moyes does realise that the German season starts in August? He only had a few months not a year!
And Moyes took over the Champions of England yet he won't shut up about how old the team is and how much work there is to be done!
The man loves a good excuse! Problem is none of them make any sense.
I just don't see how he can motivate the players to leave everything on the pitch for him when he undermines them with these type of comments. And as far as his future plan talk, he's never created fast, positive and young teams, he's never really played beautiful football (bursts of it perhaps).
Does he know that he took over the champions of England? And what about the other coaches. Ancelotti, Pellegrini, Mourinho for example, they also were at other teams last season, they don't need more preparation.
One thing I noted today, and it might just be my own views colouring what I'm seeing so pinches of salt etc, was how the players didn't really react to him whatsoever on scoring/winning given all the question marks around his future, with plenty of articles on the "dressing room revolt" having been written of late.
What in the actual feck? Is he purposely winding up the fans? What is this shite that he's saying? Excuses after excuses after excuses.
Seems like he used to be fairly close to SAF so he might be fairly well connected. Not sure how they get on these days though!
I would have thought it's a good thing. SAF would be reluctant to sack Moyes considering he was his recommendation and sacking him would be admitting he was wrong. I think the Glazers will be more ruthless.
He really lacks self awareness at times. It's not like Moyes took over the champions of England. Oh wait.
He's pathetic
David Moyes needs to shrug off his old Everton ways at Manchester United
Though they have the best away form in the Premier League, United don't perform at home because of the manager's mindset
The world that David Moyes has entered at Manchester United is one of a club accustomed to winning. Photograph: Jon Super/AP
When I joined Liverpool in 1992, the first game of the season was a Charity Shield match at Wembley. We lost 4-3 to Leeds and, as we all piled back on the team bus, I'll never forget the bus driver – "Helmet", we called him – saying to me: "Don't worry, lad, we go to Wembley at least once a season here."
That was my introduction to Liverpool. The club that expects to go to Wembley. The club that expects success. As we now know, that was also the beginning of the end of Liverpool's dominant period, and later that season, Helmet took me aside once more to say, incredulously: "I can't believe we're not going to Wembley," as though it should have been a given.
Such is the world that David Moyes has entered at Manchester United. A club so accustomed to winning that its fans are beginning to talk of protests, and hiring aeroplanes to fly messages across the sky.
Meanwhile, fans, pundits, onlookers and commentators have all struggled to pinpoint exactly what is going wrong at United. We've heard a myriad of opinions – ageing players, players not pulling their weight, players being played out of position, too much influence from Fergie, not enough influence from Fergie – but I can't help wondering if there actually is anything fundamentally wrong with the team itself.
Just take a look at their away form: until Saturday's matches, United were top of the table. It seems unbelievable, I know. Then have a look at their home form and United are languishing in the bottom half. Not performing at Old Trafford? The fortress, the legendary stadium to which other teams turn up and know they are beaten before they've even left the changing rooms? It's unthinkable. And it's understandably frustrating for the 60,000-odd United season ticket holders who are unused to such a phenomenon.
So why can't United perform at home? For me the reasons are 100% psychological. At Everton, even during a good run, Moyes was never expected to win all his home games. He has simply never experienced this level of pressure before, and in front of so many expectant home fans. He no doubt carries a residual historic nervousness around Old Trafford, because for opposition managers, Old Trafford has always been an intimidating, awe-inspiring stadium, and every sign of insecurity, every glimpse of a lack of confidence, every hesitation from Moyes in his preparation for a home game then resonates throughout that changing room.
Away games are different. Whether it's Everton at the Emirates, or Manchester United at the Emirates, it's all still away. You set up differently, your team talk is different, your expectations are different. It's a familiar formula for Moyes, comfortable and well-honed over the years.
There lies the crux of it. Essentially, Moyes is still Moyes the Everton manager. He still thinks, talks and acts like an Everton manager. He is awkward and unfamiliar in his dealings with United's superstar stable of players who struggle to respect him. He is too hands on – getting too involved in training instead of leaving it to his coaches, as Sir Alex Ferguson used to. Players like to moan and vent at their coaches on the training pitches so they can feel confident that it won't affect them come Saturday's match. If the manager is always taking training, there is nowhere to release those frustrations and players soon begin to retreat and grow resentful.
When Moyes answers questions from the media, he speaks like he is still at Everton. "We've been training well and I know we're going to turn it round." That's an Everton manager answer. It's the answer you give for Everton because you're not expected to win week in, week out. Always, the emotion is written all over his face. With Ferguson, if he wasn't happy it was always someone else's fault – the ballboy, the referee – he deflected everything. Similarly, José Mourinho at Chelsea tends to avoid answering the question and instead comes up with some subterfuge to talk about.
What Ferguson was so good at was being the biggest person in the equation. The best at mind games, the most in control. The centre of the universe. That gives your players confidence that you can deal with anything, you run the ship regardless. You are top dog. You have the last word. You are chief psychopath in the bizarre world of football psychopaths.
Under Ferguson we rarely knew what was really going on at United. I've talked about it before, the Man Utd mafia, the omertà, a grip of such strength that still to this day – despite intense media coverage and speculation – no one, apart from those who were there, really knows what happened when David Beckham got a boot in his eye. That hold over the dressing room is fading now. There are leaks, suggestions and stories coming out of United in a way not seen before. Moyes isn't a bad person, or a bad manager, he's just being himself. But that's not the United mantra.
Ultimately, United are going through an evolutionary period. As Darwin says, the most dominant force always gets overtaken at some point. Whether that was Liverpool in the 1990s, or now United. Fans at Old Trafford will have to get used to booing, for now, because evolution takes time.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/mar/29/david-moyes-everton-ways-manchester-united
Though they have the best away form in the Premier League, United don't perform at home because of the manager's mindset
The world that David Moyes has entered at Manchester United is one of a club accustomed to winning. Photograph: Jon Super/AP
When I joined Liverpool in 1992, the first game of the season was a Charity Shield match at Wembley. We lost 4-3 to Leeds and, as we all piled back on the team bus, I'll never forget the bus driver – "Helmet", we called him – saying to me: "Don't worry, lad, we go to Wembley at least once a season here."
That was my introduction to Liverpool. The club that expects to go to Wembley. The club that expects success. As we now know, that was also the beginning of the end of Liverpool's dominant period, and later that season, Helmet took me aside once more to say, incredulously: "I can't believe we're not going to Wembley," as though it should have been a given.
Such is the world that David Moyes has entered at Manchester United. A club so accustomed to winning that its fans are beginning to talk of protests, and hiring aeroplanes to fly messages across the sky.
Meanwhile, fans, pundits, onlookers and commentators have all struggled to pinpoint exactly what is going wrong at United. We've heard a myriad of opinions – ageing players, players not pulling their weight, players being played out of position, too much influence from Fergie, not enough influence from Fergie – but I can't help wondering if there actually is anything fundamentally wrong with the team itself.
Just take a look at their away form: until Saturday's matches, United were top of the table. It seems unbelievable, I know. Then have a look at their home form and United are languishing in the bottom half. Not performing at Old Trafford? The fortress, the legendary stadium to which other teams turn up and know they are beaten before they've even left the changing rooms? It's unthinkable. And it's understandably frustrating for the 60,000-odd United season ticket holders who are unused to such a phenomenon.
So why can't United perform at home? For me the reasons are 100% psychological. At Everton, even during a good run, Moyes was never expected to win all his home games. He has simply never experienced this level of pressure before, and in front of so many expectant home fans. He no doubt carries a residual historic nervousness around Old Trafford, because for opposition managers, Old Trafford has always been an intimidating, awe-inspiring stadium, and every sign of insecurity, every glimpse of a lack of confidence, every hesitation from Moyes in his preparation for a home game then resonates throughout that changing room.
Away games are different. Whether it's Everton at the Emirates, or Manchester United at the Emirates, it's all still away. You set up differently, your team talk is different, your expectations are different. It's a familiar formula for Moyes, comfortable and well-honed over the years.
There lies the crux of it. Essentially, Moyes is still Moyes the Everton manager. He still thinks, talks and acts like an Everton manager. He is awkward and unfamiliar in his dealings with United's superstar stable of players who struggle to respect him. He is too hands on – getting too involved in training instead of leaving it to his coaches, as Sir Alex Ferguson used to. Players like to moan and vent at their coaches on the training pitches so they can feel confident that it won't affect them come Saturday's match. If the manager is always taking training, there is nowhere to release those frustrations and players soon begin to retreat and grow resentful.
When Moyes answers questions from the media, he speaks like he is still at Everton. "We've been training well and I know we're going to turn it round." That's an Everton manager answer. It's the answer you give for Everton because you're not expected to win week in, week out. Always, the emotion is written all over his face. With Ferguson, if he wasn't happy it was always someone else's fault – the ballboy, the referee – he deflected everything. Similarly, José Mourinho at Chelsea tends to avoid answering the question and instead comes up with some subterfuge to talk about.
What Ferguson was so good at was being the biggest person in the equation. The best at mind games, the most in control. The centre of the universe. That gives your players confidence that you can deal with anything, you run the ship regardless. You are top dog. You have the last word. You are chief psychopath in the bizarre world of football psychopaths.
Under Ferguson we rarely knew what was really going on at United. I've talked about it before, the Man Utd mafia, the omertà, a grip of such strength that still to this day – despite intense media coverage and speculation – no one, apart from those who were there, really knows what happened when David Beckham got a boot in his eye. That hold over the dressing room is fading now. There are leaks, suggestions and stories coming out of United in a way not seen before. Moyes isn't a bad person, or a bad manager, he's just being himself. But that's not the United mantra.
Ultimately, United are going through an evolutionary period. As Darwin says, the most dominant force always gets overtaken at some point. Whether that was Liverpool in the 1990s, or now United. Fans at Old Trafford will have to get used to booing, for now, because evolution takes time.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/mar/29/david-moyes-everton-ways-manchester-united
Article still suggests Fergie believes Moyes will keep his job even though it's not his decision. You'd imagine he has some basis for thinking that from what goes on at boardroom level, although apparently he has little to no contact with the Glazers.
Lads, Moyes with United is actually have a great season.
League cup semis,
CL quarterfinals (probably going down only to the potential winners)
0+ points in the league may creep up to 65.
Few games winning by more than two goals.
Something that was unimaginable at Everton that now he has managed to accomplish with a better (ageing) squad.
He shouldn't be ruffled as he has only shattered his personal benchmark.
But he would need at least £70M to spend on two players next season to maintain the current standard
League cup semis,
CL quarterfinals (probably going down only to the potential winners)
0+ points in the league may creep up to 65.
Few games winning by more than two goals.
Something that was unimaginable at Everton that now he has managed to accomplish with a better (ageing) squad.
He shouldn't be ruffled as he has only shattered his personal benchmark.
But he would need at least £70M to spend on two players next season to maintain the current standard
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