What's wrong with it is there should be no rebuilding plan, Moyes has pulled the wool over everyone's eyes he's got a hell of a lot convinced that this squad is poor and the reality is that it's not true, not even remotely true, it's a fantastic squad of players. Does it need adding to yes of course it does but rebuilding ? Does it bollox, what the actual F**K !
Moyes So Far!
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What's wrong with it is there should be no rebuilding plan, Moyes has pulled the wool over everyone's eyes he's got a hell of a lot convinced that this squad is poor and the reality is that it's not true, not even remotely true, it's a fantastic squad of players. Does it need adding to yes of course it does but rebuilding ? Does it bollox, what the actual F**K !
It's a secret, say no more of this bad word.
75% of the defense needs uprooting. People have been calling for an entirely new midfield. It is a rebuild.
Hasn't that already arguably been happening with Moyes? Fellaini seems to be as bad as any signings Dalglish made and Dalglish signed Suarez and Henderson...2 of Liverpools most important players now so Moyes has yet to get even 1 signing right so far out of a 70 million splurge...Mata may come good but jury still out if he will improve us and if he was the player we needed...but i agree with your point that if Moyes stayed and bought Kroos and Carvalho for example then the team would be in excellent shape for the next manager were he to fail if given next season to redeem himself
The defense is fine, Evra is the only position we will be desperate in and he's not actually gone yet, he would make a great back up LB should we sign someone and the midfield we need two players under Ferguson, two true CM Moyes has already brought us one of those has he not. No he's not because Fellaini isn't good enough and will be a squad player unless we're plotting to replace Evertons position in the table full time.
Exactly.
Are Chelsea in a transitional period? They need a left back, centre back and striker.
Fact is Moyes should have signed 3 players last summer. Why he thought Barca would sell Fabregas after selling Thiago, feck knows. Two CMs and centre back.
This summer two centre backs and winger. But now we need to sign 6 players in a World Cup year and hope they gel together.
We need a CB or two.
Jones/Smalling/Evans are always injured. I thought by now they should have displaced Rio or Vidic. But two of them always injured.
I thought the defense was fine before the season begun but it has shown extreme frailty. Rio will retire, Vidic is gone and the other three are massively injury prone. We need to add another world class CB to the mix. A first choice LB is needed and a back up right back to cover for Rafael.
For two seasons now the performance of our wingers have been pathetic. Especially at a club where we pride ourselves on our wing play. We need to add a pacey, goal scoring addition in that area.
The midfield needs remain the same. Fellaini is basically an expensive replacement for Cleverley as a third choice midfielder.
The parallels with Sextons tenure are alarming. A man of integrity no doubt but ultimately, and inately, defensive and conservative in mind and deed and the United of that time reflected this. Sexton was nicknamed "whispering Dave" he was so self effacing. A good man. Integrity. Character. Did his best etc. Moyes is of the same ilk I reckon and, if allowed, will deliver the same. Mediocrity. A non UNited.
We had 4 years of Sexton and it was fecking horrible believe me. It was a full time job watching that team.
We had 4 years of Sexton and it was fecking horrible believe me. It was a full time job watching that team.
I don't think Fellaini and Mata would be regarded as liabilities by most managers either, to be fair. The main problem with Fellaini is his price tag - and that isn't really a problem if the owners feel we're in a position to spend that sort of money on a squad player. King Kenny blew his budget on dross - that's very different.
Exactly. The club needs rebuilding now, thanks to him.
9 months ago it needed reloading.
We've had a share of injury problems in defense granted but how many CB's do we need, our 3 are of the right quality but there's only really Evans played in position this season you could say, we probably would benefit another CB and a back up RB of course but LB is the only true area we are a disaster defensively, I think a lot of our defensive woes comes from the lack of protection from midfield and of course Evra when he's overplayed.
Don't tell me that Moyesy has you pair convinced the squad is shit too.
Here are some quotes from Moyes from last Summer:
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"It's never the same until you've worked with the players, but we've got a great group of players -- they won the Premier League last year."
"There is no pressure to do it. I have an idea of where I’d like to strengthen," said Moyes. "If the right players are available, then great, but there is a possibility nothing may happen."
"I am quite confident we will add to the squad. But what we have here is a really good squad of players already. You mustn't forget about the quality that is already here at Manchester United."
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Add to that the fact that he didn't really show real urgency to add many players in the Summer, and ended up doing only one (not very good) business.
So where is this idea that we had a sh*t squad that needed a massive overhaul and "rebuilding" suddenly come from?
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"It's never the same until you've worked with the players, but we've got a great group of players -- they won the Premier League last year."
"There is no pressure to do it. I have an idea of where I’d like to strengthen," said Moyes. "If the right players are available, then great, but there is a possibility nothing may happen."
"I am quite confident we will add to the squad. But what we have here is a really good squad of players already. You mustn't forget about the quality that is already here at Manchester United."
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Add to that the fact that he didn't really show real urgency to add many players in the Summer, and ended up doing only one (not very good) business.
So where is this idea that we had a sh*t squad that needed a massive overhaul and "rebuilding" suddenly come from?
Did he? As far as I remember he signed Suarez and Henderson too. Suarez himself would generate as much money as his entire signings combined if Liverpool decides to sell him today.
I don't agree about Fellaini, but I think we have mentioned this before. Personally I think that unless Allardyce or Pulis is the new manager, he will be out of the club as fast as Carroll was sold when Rodgers came at Liverpool. We'll wait and see, I guess. Mata on the other side would be fantastic with a new manager. But if we continue with Moyes for lets say another year, then who knows, the confidence may be really low and many good players couldn't return to form when they had a couple of bad years. Anyway, the idea of signing good players because in the end the new manager would be in a good position seems to me a bit ridiculous. Not every manager likes certain good players (Mourinho didn't fancy Mata for example) Why just not leave it to the new manager in the first place?
Also (this is becoming repetitive now - I always say in the morning to myself that won't comment on Moyes anymore) if Moyes had no idea how to get something good from Mata, RVP, Rooney, Carrick and Fellaini in the first place (up to last game they were available for a few games in the same time) why people think that he will do much better if he signs another 2-3 great players? Frankly speaking, Mata has looked a 5-10m players since he came here.
And in the end, is that there is no guarantee that we will actually sign good players. Kroos is Fabregas saga all over again, is so obvious to see that.
I don't think it's shit. In fact if you look at my posts from earlier in the season I would have made a case for them competing for the title. Though I think Moyes has been also very unlucky in a lot of aspects. You cannot deny that Evra, Rio and Vidic have gone to complete shit this season. We can make a long list of individual errors that the three of them have committed this season. Evans, Smalling and Jones have been troubled with injuries for long periods. The past few games we didn't have a single CB on bench, which is ridiculous. Then RVP injuries, the indifferent forms of Rafael and Carrick and we have the main components of our title winning squad not functioning properly.
It's a shared blame.
Exactly. Didn't SAF say in his speech after the Swansea game that the aim was to try to win the league this season? Moyes even suggested early on in the season (after the Chelsea game I think) that he expected us to be in the mix come the end of the season. When everyone was complaining about the lack of transfer activity in the summer he said there was no need for major changes as he had inherited a title winning side. A little over 6 months later and the same man is saying big changes need to be made and these will take time, the club is in transition, etc. He seemed satisfied with the squad in September but now it's the opposite. He is just say this to cover up his incompetence.
The fact that we won the league by 11 points would suggest that, even though there were a few players that needed replacing, a major rebuild was hardly necessary. I don't remember hearing anybody suggest back in August that there was a chance we could come outside the top 4, let alone the top 6.
I knew it would be a huge ask for us to win the league this season. City and Chelsea were always going to be a different proposition than they were last year. However with 2-3 quality signings in the summer I believe we could have been in with a decent shout and certainly would have cemented our place in the top 4. Yes changes were needed to be made but suggesting a championship winning team needed rebuilding is wide of the mark.
I remember the Sexton years and I think you have summed things up pretty well. Sexton was a good bloke but our football under him was boring as hell. Its just not Utd
We dont have a "shit" squad but it absolutely needs rebuilding. Fergie rebuilt 4 or 5 times. The squad we have would not have won the EPL this year, there are aging players, players past their best years. There has been for a number of years the midfield issue. We also lack quality backup in a couple of positions. RB for example, last season Fergie used a winger or a CB as the backup for the RB position. If Fergie was still in charge he would have started another rebuilding.
It's amazing how many people who support Moyes also say how bad the squad suddenly is. He obviously disagrees with them cos he didn't even try to strengthen in the right areas.
This overhauling/rebuilding bollocks has been around for a few years. Even when we were doing consistently well, some 'experts' still didn't rate our players but couldn't explain why we were so successful with them. Then when we got a much inferior manager in, they thought their views were justified and some mugs decided to believe them. Let' face it, every supporter slates their players cos they perform badly, doesn't mean they are sh*t all the time.
In truth, we do need players cos some of them aren't good enough for whatever reason now. Can't deny that cos it showed especially when we played in Europe. But not every single one of them. And as a unit they competed, that counts for a lot.
Though I think Moyes has been also very unlucky in a lot of aspects. You cannot deny that Evra, Rio and Vidic have gone to complete shit this season. We can make a long list of individual errors that the three of them have committed this season. Evans, Smalling and Jones have been troubled with injuries for long periods. The past few games we didn't have a single CB on bench, which is ridiculous. Then RVP injuries, the indifferent forms of Rafael and Carrick and we have the main components of our title winning squad not functioning properly.
It's a shared blame.
We know he's been unlucky he's been telling us with every breath in his body, first it was the fixtures, then luck, then the players and luck again, it makes for cringe worthy listening every week.
Rio at center back is a disaster but that was evident last season too, he drops us too deep leaving huge spaces for our midfield 2 to cover, Liverpool battered us on it and Moyes never spotted it because City battered us on it again after his panic switch after 45 seconds.
We've needed a pair of quality CM players a few seasons now, that's been done over and over, Moyes has delivered us 2 Midfielders one wont make it here as long as he has a hole in his arse and the other will be perfect in a position we are stacked in. We need reinforcements not a rebuild, it actually strikes fear into me that this man we have in charge is going to be let loose with the warchest we've know only before as a myth.
Is rebuilding going to be the excuse for every fecked up season from a team managed by a manager clearly out of his depth?
Thank you for reminding people of this.
There wasn't anyone else available, mate. The other choice would have been to play Carrick.
We need central midfielders and Mata is not one (though I would like us to try him there until the end of the season). Mata has played in wider roles before and it won't be a problem once he has had time to adjust and we have another pacey outlet on the other wing. Fellaini would prove to be a successful squad player.
Reinforcements/Rebuild it's just semantics. We need top quality players in four positions, with or without Moyes.
Although we kept saying that many times in the past and we were proven wrong.
Nobody is saying we don't need to add a couple of players (and by the way, when Fergie rebuilt his teams, he never changed everybody all of a sudden, just 2-3 additions, and we stayed competitive every year). But, we already added 2 big signings (money-wise at least), added somebody from the the youth team, and all we should need now is probably 2 more signings to be able to compete for the title again. 5 new players should be more than enough to address whatever big weaknesses we had.
However now Moyes is starting to sound more like it's gonna be a long process that could take years to rebuild our squad. There is no way our squad is that bad, and he himself didn't think so when he took over.
Main problem is other clubs have strengthened a lot, it feels as if Moyes does make the difference tactically, and mentality wise (meaning he has a negative impact), I think any manager coming in would want to add to the squad though.
Problem is that he hasn't started rebuilding yet. The only players gone are players that were not getting significant minutes anyway. I could accept this if he had overhauled the squad in the summer. But he's done this with all the same regular players (plus a couple of upgrades) still in the squad. Are you suggesting that one more year on a handful of aging players is worth a 20+ point swing?
But this would have to be gradual thing. That's what SAF did, he didn't just have a revolving door policy. Rebuilding is a bit much, evolution is better. Why did he buy Jones if he didn't think he would be one of our main CBs for the next few years?
We needed 3 players last summer (and not fellaini). Strong leaders in central midfield and a new CB cos of Rio's age. We also needed to get rid of a few. And then a few more in and out this summer where necessary. We do have a big squad, but it can be too disruptive to make too many immediate, drastic changes. New players would also give the remaining squad impetus to put more effort in and play better, under the right management of course.
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Yea I know we had to play Rio and that's why we started 4-3-3 to outnumber them, the fact that for 10 minutes it looked like we hadn't been drilled on it and the fact we did it in such a big derby was plain naive, we had Giggs available who would have brought the calm but hey it's done now and just another blot on his copybook.
Yea agreed Fellaini will prove useful especially when your facing a wall of defenders but the fact remains we've spent 70m and not addressed one single area we needed to with a top quality player.
Well, I can't fully disagree with that. I think we have shown uncharacteristically weak mentality this season. We are too scared to lose at Old Trafford. Which is something that has been most disappointing amongst other things. Even in the City game, we played really well for the final 25-30 minutes of the first half. Had control of the game, were moving the ball well and created a couple of decent chances. And then we came back in the second half and gave up a goal pretty early, which was essentially ended the game.
We need to improve on that aspect in the remaining games of the season.
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Not a patch on American fans.
I havent said this shouldnt be gradual. Fergie did it over a few seasons each time. The only thing I am trying to get across is that its not a shit squad but it had hit its peak and needs rebuilding. That would under Fergie have taken a few seasons. The big difference here being that Fergie would have still kept us in the top 4.
I was responding to this "So where is this idea that we had a sh*t squad that needed a massive overhaul and "rebuilding" suddenly come from?"
The idea we needed rebuilding wasnt a sudden idea, its been clear to us for a couple of seasons.
Last summer I think we needed more than 3 players. Everyone forgets how weak we were with respect to backup players for LB and RB. I also think we needed to move on some under performing wingers as well.
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Yea I know we had to play Rio and that's why we started 4-3-3 to outnumber them, the fact that for 10 minutes it looked like we hadn't been drilled on it and the fact we did it in such a big derby was plain naive, we had Giggs available who would have brought the calm but hey it's done now and just another blot on his copybook.
Yea agreed Fellaini will prove useful especially when your facing a wall of defenders but the fact remains we've spent 70m and not addressed one single area we needed to with a top quality player.
You are right. To me it looks like that both buys were as much to make a statement as to strengthen the team. Though the quality of Mata would prove to be useful in the long run, I am confident of that.
This is a very important summer for Moyes or whoever is in charge. We can't afford a feck up like last summer.
I don't know about that as i'm english,but feel free to stereotype Americans.
Without please
Yea I know we had to play Rio and that's why we started 4-3-3 to outnumber them, the fact that for 10 minutes it looked like we hadn't been drilled on it and the fact we did it in such a big derby was plain naive, we had Giggs available who would have brought the calm but hey it's done now and just another blot on his copybook.
Yea agreed Fellaini will prove useful especially when your facing a wall of defenders but the fact remains we've spent 70m and not addressed one single area we needed to with a top quality player.
Part of my concern with the summer transfer was this, but I think this was intentional (because the right players weren't available, Thiago being the only one, yet we missed out on him, I think even Thiago thought he was coming to United).
Basically, as the deadline loomed, he wanted to dip into the market, he missed out on the right player, so he thought about another area to add to, that could add another dynamic to our game, even if the right player wasn't available, he maybe realised he could start to plan for the years ahead now, so bought Fellaini, and also Mata who we have a similar player in Kagawa.
I think we need a ball-winner which looks to be Carvalho in the summer, and a creative deep lying player to replace carrick, and a box to box but as none of those were really available in europe last year he bought what he could, Mata and Fellaini may look a bit out of place so far, but I think they aren't really in the system he wants with the right players this year.
I do agree to some extent that SAF did leave the squad in a bit of a state (in some areas) like losing Scholes and Pogba not given a chance so he got fed up, then Giggs retiring, Rio and Vidic past their prime, and perhaps some of the younger players haven't developed as much as we would like, (they will given time) the thing is this season is high pressure for the united players and under new management doesn't help, yet that doesn't neglect we should be top 2-3 this season.
I think the board realises, there does need to be a world class midfield, a top winger, and a strong back four, because other teams have strengthened a lot last summer, and will again this summer, the team can't be left behind, the money will be recouped by sponsorship deals, if it doesn't strengthen the money will go elsewhere.
You're arguing a different case than I am here, though. If Moyes is incompetent then, no, it won't actually make much of a difference who he buys in terms of United's success under him. But what targets he goes for makes a great difference if one is worried about United spending millions on dross. Unless he goes for the equivalents of Downing and Carroll I wouldn't worry about that aspect - that's what I'm saying. None of the targets Moyes is reportedly interested in belongs to that category.
And no, there is no guarantee we will sign anyone. Ultimately whether we spend top dollar on top players depends on factors beyond Moyes - or any other manager. All we know is that the club seems to recognize the need to strengthen - and that Woodward has made plenty of noise regarding this.
Sure English fans are the worst - look at them turning their back on Moyes and organizing a plane to fly over OT. So fickle
.No one wanted to tell King George the colonies were winning the war, either.
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I wonder if other forums have done a "Moyes stay or go" poll, and if he fared better than the 92% of the Caf who want him gone.
I don't think Moyes will be here but if he is he might make some of the signings we need, if he does bring in those missing players when he finally does go it won't have been a complete waste of time.
Mata will be an excellent buy once we find out how to use him correctly, his positioning against West brom was where he's been most effective but i would like to see him used a little deeper occasionally but for now stick him right in behind Rooney with Wellbeck and Kagawa covering him either side and we will get results.
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