Every post from Talking Vulture that I have read in the last few months contains this cancer analogy. It's highly distasteful, hence my response.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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Every post from Talking Vulture that I have read in the last few months contains this cancer analogy. It's highly distasteful, hence my response.
To be clear, no. I'm wishing that karma fecks him a round some so that he might learn to be less consistently offensive in his remarks. I'm an admin, btw, so report it if you like.
That's exactly what I said, bookies are very good at making money. They had City as favourites to win, they alter their odds in accordance to current betting behaviour to try and ensure whatever happens they will profit.
E.g. If somebody put a load of money on United to win they would alter their odds in response to this.
They don't have somebody who sits and then predicts the football score...
Where do you think that expectation of us being crushed by teams like Bayern, City, and Liverpool (at home) coming from? Is it a norm for United, which is well known as one of the top clubs in the world?
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More than the tactics,team selections and substitutions it just hurts to see a United team without any aggression especially in a derby game. Forget Moyes, any manager who is up against city after being trounced away earlier this season would like to get back at them. If you are up for the job as manager of Manchester United or 'cut from the same cloth as ferguson', it is games like these you look forward to..irrespective of the quality of players you got..what you do not do is lower fans expectations and try to hide behind safe comments.
I already have because I thought you were wishing him cancer. If you're an admin that's even worse by the way, you should be setting an example.
I'm really not sure why people thought he would be a success. Top teams are only ever successful with top managers in charge. Look at every top club, and you'll see they have a top manager. Why we thought that appointing a mid table manager could work is beyond me. It's not like we took a risk on an unknown quality with his first foray into management. We knew what he was like, he's an experienced manager who played negative, percentage football, and always failed when he came up against bigger teams, and he never won a trophy. He was never going to be a success, being a mid table manager, he's brought us down to his level, as all managers do with the clubs they are at.
You are entitled to your opinion. I have a job to do on the fourms, though.
"You've let youself down, you've let your mother down, you've let your school down..." ahh, that takes me back.
To be honest Pellegrini's totally right. Moyes need way more match winning players like Toure that will push the players forward. That include also defenders.
The summer window will determine more than any match played this season if he'll survive as United manager.
The summer window will determine more than any match played this season if he'll survive as United manager.
You're saying that bookies try to balance their books? I know for a fact they do not, it'd be in their interest to offer something like 1.20 on City rather than 2.20 if it was as much a foregone conclusion that we'd get trashed last night.
In fact, even Bayern are as short as 1.20 to win at OT next week.
Is that one of the caftards? The guy is absolutely furious.
You miss the point entirely.
The tone prior to City and after City in this thread is slightly different, everybody knows he under performed, they were a little less negative after back to back defeats and now, after the game we were expected to lose, they are incredibly negative again. I'm saying, why that slight change in tone? Nothing surprising occurred against City, despite back to back wins we knew what was going to happen at Old Trafford.
An Israeli chap who was at the game yesterday says that while the support for the team remains strong, there were no songs/chants for Moyes...
Even in our current situation though, getting beaten 3-0 by City is still an incredibly poor result. The position we're in right now is arguably akin to, say, Everton in previous years, although arguably worse than some of their season.
If we had beaten Moyes' Everton 3-0 last season at their home ground, then their fans would have been very displeased with that and it'd have gone down as a very poor result. I wasn't surprised we lost last night. I wasn't shocked we were beaten 3-0, but if we were going to lose then I was hoping we could keep down the margin in this one.
I'm saying the odds do not remain fixed and will respond to the amount of money being placed, bookies take calculated risks. Unless there is another explanation for slight fluctuations in odds as one approaches game time.
You speak as though you expected United to get something from the game?
Also, I'm not sure where you place your bets but you are being ripped off. Bayern are about 1.50 at most bookies I've checked, that includes Skybet, bet365, Paddypower, Stan James, Betfair etc.
Bayern have a 67% chance of beating United at Old Trafford, not as you suggest an 83% chance.
After what Liverpool did, how could you not expect City to at least do something similar?
Nobody is denying we are displeased with this season and we are displeased with most results. I'm saying from reading this thread today compared to before the City game but after the West Ham game I feel there is more displeasure despite City doing to us what any sane man would expect.
I did not care for the margin but I did want to see desire, passion and character however based on recent performances against big teams I was confident such would not be witnessed.
http://www.statto.com/football/stats/england/premier-league/2013-2014/versus-top-half/full
Sunderland,West brom,Stoke,Villa and Norwichhave won more points V the top half than us.
Dont think their is anything more damming than that anybody could post.
Our points per game total against all teams this season is lower than our points per game vs top 10 for every season going back to 02/03.
Is that one of the caftards? The guy is absolutely furious.
That was poetic.
Another fan not buying the party line then.
Oops, even Bayern AREN'T as short...
History proves this theory.
Why is he keep harping on about transitional period? All he needed to do last summer was sign 3 players. And then do the same this summer.
But he blew it. People were saying last season how we were a few players short of challenging for Europe. Now all of a sudden we 8 players short. He should have signed two midfielders and a left back last summer. This summer two centre backs and a winger. Now with his fecking around, we going to have to sign 6 players and then integrate them in a team.
But he blew it. People were saying last season how we were a few players short of challenging for Europe. Now all of a sudden we 8 players short. He should have signed two midfielders and a left back last summer. This summer two centre backs and a winger. Now with his fecking around, we going to have to sign 6 players and then integrate them in a team.
Because for a side in 7th, a 3-0 loss at home should be an occasional one off, not a regular occurrence. That's even against the best sides in the league. I wasn't shocked by the result, but I was still very disappointed at the margin of defeat.
31 reasons David Moyes must leave Manchester United
Manchester United may have reached the Champions League quarter-finals but there is a growing and convincing body of evidence that David Moyes is not up to the job
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...David-Moyes-must-leave-Manchester-United.html
1 This season Manchester United, the reigning Premier League champions and third richest club in the world:
- are seventh in the Premier League, their lowest placing for 24 years. Their previous finishes in the rebranded league have been:
Position finished Number of times
1st 13
2nd 5
3rd 3
4th or below 0
- have been eliminated from the FA Cup by Swansea City, who have never won the FA Cup.
- have been eliminated from the Capital One Cup by Sunderland, who have never won the League Cup.
In simple terms, this is failure.
UNWELCOME STATS
To reinforce the point:
2 On 26 March 2013 United had 74 points from 29 games and were 15 points clear at the top:
On 26 March 2014 United have 51 points from 31 games and are 18 points off the top:
3 51 points is their lowest total after 31 games in the Premier League era - indeed they have never previously had fewer than 60 at this stage.
4 United have fewer home points in the league than Norwich and Hull (21 points).
5 United have scored the same number of goals at home in the league as Cardiff and Fulham, the table's bottom two teams (18 goals).
6 Moyes has done marginally worse with the reigning champions than he managed with Everton last season:
Played Points For Against
Everton 12/13 31 52 49 37
United 13/14 31 51 48 37
TACTICS
7 Everton were expected to struggle post-Moyes, almost in the same way United might post-Ferguson. Instead the club has moved to a new level.
Under Roberto Martinez they have altered their style of play and have 57 points from 30 games, sitting above United in the league. In Moyes's last five seasons at the club they averaged 12 points fewer (51, 40, 40, 45, 48).
Ross Barkley's verdict was unintentionally damning: "He's similar to David Moyes as they both like to take over the training session and be the main man but Martinez is more tactical. We do a lot more tactical work which is good for me because I'm young and still learning."
8 United's limitations are well illustrated by these two images. As unfair as it may be to pick a single snapshot - and it goes without saying that different pictures could be presented by the case for Moyes's defence - they reflect the differing perceptions of Pep Guardiola's well-drilled Bayern Munich team and the Scot's one-dimensional United side.
Bayern Munich build an attack against Manchester City, with players in close contact and providing plenty of passing options for the man on the ball.
Rafael looks to start an attack for United against Fulham, with the nearest player 20 yards away.
9 In the 2-2 home draw against Fulham, pictured above, United became a laughing stock as they put in 81 crosses, to little effect with only 18 finding a team-mate. Fulham defender Dan Burn said he had "not headed that many balls since the Conference".
There has been a lack of variety and subtlety in United's play all season. Some have argued this is down to the squad he inherited from Ferguson, which was full of ageing players and lacking in quality. There may be an element of truth in that, but the disparate performances in the home matches against Liverpool this season and last night rebuff that assessment.
Last January United won deservedly 2-1 against their biggest rivals at Old Trafford, enjoying the majority of possession and having 15 shots on target. Ten days ago United, for whom 10 of the 14 players fielded had figured in last season's victory, were totally outplayed by Liverpool, managing one shot on target, their lowest in a home match for five years.
Moyes was comprehensively outcoached by his opposite number, Brendan Rodgers. Rodgers has transformed Liverpool in the past 18 months into a dynamic, cohesive unit with attacking full-backs, pace and mobility in attack and a versatile and tactically astute midfield. It is everything Moyes's United are not, as Gary Neville remarked last night after a very similar 3-0 defeat, to Manchester City: "They need to have a rethink about where they are going. There is no pace and power going forward. At this moment they have an identity crisis."
10 Some supporters have been perplexed by Moyes's reluctance to select one of the most creative players at his disposal, Shinji Kagawa. The Japanese international's former manager at Borussia Dortmund, Jurgen Klopp, was referring to Ferguson when he made the following comments last year, but they could have been uttered a few months later and been just as pertinent.
"Shinji Kagawa is one of the best players in the world and he now plays 20 minutes at Manchester United - on the left wing! My heart breaks. Central midfield is Shinji's best role. He's an offensive midfielder with one of the best noses for goal I ever saw."
Rarely has Moyes experimented with Kagawa there - last night he came on as a substitute on the right of midfield - prompting United fans to produce videos emphasising how redundant he is in this team setup.
TRANSFER MARKET
11 United and Moyes had by common consensus a dreadful summer, being embarrassed in their pursuits of Cesc Fabregas, Cristiano Ronaldo, Leighton Baines, Fabio Coentrao and Ander Herrera, among others. So misjudged were they that they passed on the option to return to Moyes's old club, Everton, in July to buy Marouane Fellaini for his release clause value of £23m, and were then forced to pay £27.5m for him weeks later when other transfer targets fell through.
There is mitigation in that chief executive David Gill retired along with Sir Alex Ferguson last summer, and so Moyes was partnered in the market by the inexperienced Ed Woodward. But Moyes has actually spent £70m, on Fellaini and the club-record signing Juan Mata, as yet recouping no money, and has next to nothing to show for that outlay.
12 Fellaini, or "the Lampshade" as he is known by the crueller United fans, has certainly not brought value for money. He has made only 17 appearances and has failed to score or register an assist in those games. Anecdotally he slows down the play, needing three touches where rival midfielders would use one, and stymies any attempts to modernise United's brand of football. In fairness he does have one goal to his name this season - for Everton, against Stevenage.
13 It is too early to judge Mata, but his impact has been minimal so far and already the pundits who heralded him as a terrific signing are now wondering if, in fact, Chelsea manager Jose Mourinho pulled off a masterstroke in selling him for such a large fee. He is yet to score in his nine games for United, and has had only one shot on target in those matches. Moyes paid £42.5m for the World Cup, European Championship and Champions League winner, and is certainly not extracting the best from him, frequently playing him wide rather than in his best position, No 10. The player looks horribly lost as he plays balls sideways all too often rather than being the creative spark he was in winning Chelsea's player of the year award in successive seasons.
14 The Glazers are willing to give the manager at least £100m to spendin the summer in the all-too-obvious knowledge that the squad needs an overhaul. But is Moyes the right man to spend this cash?
Leave aside Fellaini and Mata's performances thus far. Or the fact that the likes of Toni Kroos are unlikely to be clamouring to play for Moyes. Or that the 51-year-old has no experience of this kind of transfer budget. The evidence of his purchases at Everton count against him. When he did buy (relatively) big the players failed to perform as they had at their old club. The three most expensive strikers he signed all had low goals to games ratios:
Player Fee Everton goals / games Previous club goals / games
Yakubu £11.25m25 in 82 37 in 53
Johnson£8.6m 17 in 61 24 in 80
Beattie £6m 13 in 76 34 in 62
THE HUMILIATIONS
Time and again United have been humiliated this season by clubs they would expect to beat - certainly clubs they had not lost against for a long time, ending streaks which were decades long:
15 West Brom's 2-1 win in September was their first at Old Trafford since 1978. None of the Baggies squad that day were born when the club had lost won at United.
16 Everton inflicted huge embarrassment on their former manager when they won, 1-0, at Old Trafford in December for the first time since 1992.
17 Yohan Cabaye's goal for Newcastle in December gave them their first win at Old Trafford for 41 years.
18 The 2-1 defeat to Tottenham at Old Trafford was United's first loss on New Year's Day for 20 years.
19 Swansea recorded their first ever win at Old Trafford when they knocked United out of the FA Cup in January. Ferguson only lost in the third round once in 27 attempts.
20 Stoke's 2-1 win at the start of February was the first time they had beaten United since 1984.
21 The Champions League first-leg 2-0 defeat to Olympiakos was the first time ever that United had lost to a Greek team.
22 The 3-0 home defeat to Man City witnessed the first time United had conceded a goal in the first minute of a Premier League game at Old Trafford.
THE BIG GAMES
23 Until recent weeks it could have been argued that the lowest points of Moyes's reign had been the defeats to Sunderland and Swansea and the others listed above. But the consistently poor record against the Premier League's top teams, several inflicted in a painfully embarrassing manner, have done the most damage. The bare stats tell only half the story, but here they are (matches against Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Everton and Tottenham):
Played 11
Won 1
Drawn 3
Lost 7
For 5
Against 19
Points 6
This is consistent with his dreadful record against the top clubs with Everton. An often trumpeted fact during his reign at Goodison Park was that he never won a league game at the Emirates, Stamford Bridge, Anfield or Old Trafford (the latter has been rectified now, although not as many times as United fans would like).
24 While Manchester United are still in the Champions League, following the come-from-behind victory over Olympiakos in the last 16, few people hold out much hope for them against the Bundesliga champions Bayern Munich in the quarter-finals. As Paul Hayward wrote following the draw last Friday: "For the first time in decades, gallows humour shapes United's response to a Champions League draw. Expectations are even lower than their league position."
Moyes's experience in European football is limited, his record with Everton reading:
2005-06: Champions League qualifying round defeat to Villarreal
2005-06: Uefa Cup first round defeat to Dinamo Bucharest
2006-07: Did not qualify
2007-08: Uefa Cup round of 16 defeat to Fiorentina
2008-09: Uefa Cup first round defeat to Standard Liege
2009-10: Europa League round of 32 defeat to Sporting Lisbon
2010-11: Did not qualify
2011-12: Did not qualify
2012-13: Did not qualify
25 Moyes has never won a major trophy in his managerial career (he did win the Scottish League with Celtic as a player, and the Second Division with Preston North End as a manager).
PUBLIC APPEARANCE
26 When Moyes first took the job he cast himself in Ferguson's shadow, talking about what a "big job" it was to be replacing the United legend, how "it would take time" for him to adapt, playing down expectations at every possible juncture since then and admitting more recently that he is baffled by United's woeful performances. Recently he even conceded Liverpool were favourites for the match at Old Trafford.
As Henry Winter wrote last night: "It certainly felt both an undeniable truth and an unwise frankness when Moyes remarked that United are 'aspiring to be like City'. Such comments signal the caution, even negativity, of the Moyes era that he should be fighting, not highlighting. He has to start behaving like a Manchester United manager, exuding defiance off the pitch and instilling width, pace and fearlessness on it."
27 Moyes did not help his cause by moving on all of Ferguson's backroom staff and surrounding himself with familiar faces. Dismissing the experience of Rene Meulensteen and Mick Phelan, among others, and replacing them with Steve Round, Phil Neville and co has left himself horribly exposed. Eric Steele, the discarded goalkeeping coach observed: "You had the United perspective - [Ferguson] saying, 'Keep what we've got, keep the continuity, work with them and they'll guide you through. You're taking on a massive machine here. You've gone from Marks and Spencer's to Harrods."
28 There have been reported fallouts with key players, vigorously denied by Moyes. To his credit he handled the Wayne Rooney contract standoff well last summer, but what is not debatable is that the senior players have not stood up for him - captain Nemanja Vidic is off to Internazionale, Patrice Evra is almost certainly returning to France at the end of the season, Rio Ferdinand is likely to become a full-time television pundit, Van Persie's future is shrouded in doubt, and Ryan Giggs has barely been seen on the pitch this year, not being picked for last night's derby despite his virtuoso display against Olympiakos. That is a lot of knowhow that Moyes has failed to tap into.
FINALLY
29 The most trenchant defence for Moyes is that Ferguson struggled in his early seasons at United before becoming the most garlanded coach in English football history. "He must be given time."
But this is not 1986 - football has changed a tad in the intervening 28 years. Moyes inherited a squad that had faults but had won the league title, and joined a club that despite being saddled with debt has plenty of money to spend in the transfer market. He has handled himself with humility and decency during these arduous few months but even some of the loyal Old Trafford support has now turned.
30 While United may not be able to attract managers of the calibre of Jose Mourinho or Carlo Ancelotti as they might have done last summer, there are plenty of deserved candidates who would be interested in the job of reviving one of English football's great institutions. Klopp, who took Dortmund (wage bill lower than Queens Park Rangers) to the Champions League final last season, leads the betting at present.
31 Results are worsening, not improving. Moyes's Manchester United record:
Year Played Won Drawn Lost
2013 29 18 6 5
2014 17 7 2 8
There really is nothing to suggest that downward spiral is going to be reversed.
Manchester United may have reached the Champions League quarter-finals but there is a growing and convincing body of evidence that David Moyes is not up to the job
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...David-Moyes-must-leave-Manchester-United.html
1 This season Manchester United, the reigning Premier League champions and third richest club in the world:
- are seventh in the Premier League, their lowest placing for 24 years. Their previous finishes in the rebranded league have been:
Position finished Number of times
1st 13
2nd 5
3rd 3
4th or below 0
- have been eliminated from the FA Cup by Swansea City, who have never won the FA Cup.
- have been eliminated from the Capital One Cup by Sunderland, who have never won the League Cup.
In simple terms, this is failure.
UNWELCOME STATS
To reinforce the point:
2 On 26 March 2013 United had 74 points from 29 games and were 15 points clear at the top:
On 26 March 2014 United have 51 points from 31 games and are 18 points off the top:
3 51 points is their lowest total after 31 games in the Premier League era - indeed they have never previously had fewer than 60 at this stage.
4 United have fewer home points in the league than Norwich and Hull (21 points).
5 United have scored the same number of goals at home in the league as Cardiff and Fulham, the table's bottom two teams (18 goals).
6 Moyes has done marginally worse with the reigning champions than he managed with Everton last season:
Played Points For Against
Everton 12/13 31 52 49 37
United 13/14 31 51 48 37
TACTICS
7 Everton were expected to struggle post-Moyes, almost in the same way United might post-Ferguson. Instead the club has moved to a new level.
Under Roberto Martinez they have altered their style of play and have 57 points from 30 games, sitting above United in the league. In Moyes's last five seasons at the club they averaged 12 points fewer (51, 40, 40, 45, 48).
Ross Barkley's verdict was unintentionally damning: "He's similar to David Moyes as they both like to take over the training session and be the main man but Martinez is more tactical. We do a lot more tactical work which is good for me because I'm young and still learning."
8 United's limitations are well illustrated by these two images. As unfair as it may be to pick a single snapshot - and it goes without saying that different pictures could be presented by the case for Moyes's defence - they reflect the differing perceptions of Pep Guardiola's well-drilled Bayern Munich team and the Scot's one-dimensional United side.
Bayern Munich build an attack against Manchester City, with players in close contact and providing plenty of passing options for the man on the ball.
Rafael looks to start an attack for United against Fulham, with the nearest player 20 yards away.
9 In the 2-2 home draw against Fulham, pictured above, United became a laughing stock as they put in 81 crosses, to little effect with only 18 finding a team-mate. Fulham defender Dan Burn said he had "not headed that many balls since the Conference".
There has been a lack of variety and subtlety in United's play all season. Some have argued this is down to the squad he inherited from Ferguson, which was full of ageing players and lacking in quality. There may be an element of truth in that, but the disparate performances in the home matches against Liverpool this season and last night rebuff that assessment.
Last January United won deservedly 2-1 against their biggest rivals at Old Trafford, enjoying the majority of possession and having 15 shots on target. Ten days ago United, for whom 10 of the 14 players fielded had figured in last season's victory, were totally outplayed by Liverpool, managing one shot on target, their lowest in a home match for five years.
Moyes was comprehensively outcoached by his opposite number, Brendan Rodgers. Rodgers has transformed Liverpool in the past 18 months into a dynamic, cohesive unit with attacking full-backs, pace and mobility in attack and a versatile and tactically astute midfield. It is everything Moyes's United are not, as Gary Neville remarked last night after a very similar 3-0 defeat, to Manchester City: "They need to have a rethink about where they are going. There is no pace and power going forward. At this moment they have an identity crisis."
10 Some supporters have been perplexed by Moyes's reluctance to select one of the most creative players at his disposal, Shinji Kagawa. The Japanese international's former manager at Borussia Dortmund, Jurgen Klopp, was referring to Ferguson when he made the following comments last year, but they could have been uttered a few months later and been just as pertinent.
"Shinji Kagawa is one of the best players in the world and he now plays 20 minutes at Manchester United - on the left wing! My heart breaks. Central midfield is Shinji's best role. He's an offensive midfielder with one of the best noses for goal I ever saw."
Rarely has Moyes experimented with Kagawa there - last night he came on as a substitute on the right of midfield - prompting United fans to produce videos emphasising how redundant he is in this team setup.
TRANSFER MARKET
11 United and Moyes had by common consensus a dreadful summer, being embarrassed in their pursuits of Cesc Fabregas, Cristiano Ronaldo, Leighton Baines, Fabio Coentrao and Ander Herrera, among others. So misjudged were they that they passed on the option to return to Moyes's old club, Everton, in July to buy Marouane Fellaini for his release clause value of £23m, and were then forced to pay £27.5m for him weeks later when other transfer targets fell through.
There is mitigation in that chief executive David Gill retired along with Sir Alex Ferguson last summer, and so Moyes was partnered in the market by the inexperienced Ed Woodward. But Moyes has actually spent £70m, on Fellaini and the club-record signing Juan Mata, as yet recouping no money, and has next to nothing to show for that outlay.
12 Fellaini, or "the Lampshade" as he is known by the crueller United fans, has certainly not brought value for money. He has made only 17 appearances and has failed to score or register an assist in those games. Anecdotally he slows down the play, needing three touches where rival midfielders would use one, and stymies any attempts to modernise United's brand of football. In fairness he does have one goal to his name this season - for Everton, against Stevenage.
13 It is too early to judge Mata, but his impact has been minimal so far and already the pundits who heralded him as a terrific signing are now wondering if, in fact, Chelsea manager Jose Mourinho pulled off a masterstroke in selling him for such a large fee. He is yet to score in his nine games for United, and has had only one shot on target in those matches. Moyes paid £42.5m for the World Cup, European Championship and Champions League winner, and is certainly not extracting the best from him, frequently playing him wide rather than in his best position, No 10. The player looks horribly lost as he plays balls sideways all too often rather than being the creative spark he was in winning Chelsea's player of the year award in successive seasons.
14 The Glazers are willing to give the manager at least £100m to spendin the summer in the all-too-obvious knowledge that the squad needs an overhaul. But is Moyes the right man to spend this cash?
Leave aside Fellaini and Mata's performances thus far. Or the fact that the likes of Toni Kroos are unlikely to be clamouring to play for Moyes. Or that the 51-year-old has no experience of this kind of transfer budget. The evidence of his purchases at Everton count against him. When he did buy (relatively) big the players failed to perform as they had at their old club. The three most expensive strikers he signed all had low goals to games ratios:
Player Fee Everton goals / games Previous club goals / games
Yakubu £11.25m25 in 82 37 in 53
Johnson£8.6m 17 in 61 24 in 80
Beattie £6m 13 in 76 34 in 62
THE HUMILIATIONS
Time and again United have been humiliated this season by clubs they would expect to beat - certainly clubs they had not lost against for a long time, ending streaks which were decades long:
15 West Brom's 2-1 win in September was their first at Old Trafford since 1978. None of the Baggies squad that day were born when the club had lost won at United.
16 Everton inflicted huge embarrassment on their former manager when they won, 1-0, at Old Trafford in December for the first time since 1992.
17 Yohan Cabaye's goal for Newcastle in December gave them their first win at Old Trafford for 41 years.
18 The 2-1 defeat to Tottenham at Old Trafford was United's first loss on New Year's Day for 20 years.
19 Swansea recorded their first ever win at Old Trafford when they knocked United out of the FA Cup in January. Ferguson only lost in the third round once in 27 attempts.
20 Stoke's 2-1 win at the start of February was the first time they had beaten United since 1984.
21 The Champions League first-leg 2-0 defeat to Olympiakos was the first time ever that United had lost to a Greek team.
22 The 3-0 home defeat to Man City witnessed the first time United had conceded a goal in the first minute of a Premier League game at Old Trafford.
THE BIG GAMES
23 Until recent weeks it could have been argued that the lowest points of Moyes's reign had been the defeats to Sunderland and Swansea and the others listed above. But the consistently poor record against the Premier League's top teams, several inflicted in a painfully embarrassing manner, have done the most damage. The bare stats tell only half the story, but here they are (matches against Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Everton and Tottenham):
Played 11
Won 1
Drawn 3
Lost 7
For 5
Against 19
Points 6
This is consistent with his dreadful record against the top clubs with Everton. An often trumpeted fact during his reign at Goodison Park was that he never won a league game at the Emirates, Stamford Bridge, Anfield or Old Trafford (the latter has been rectified now, although not as many times as United fans would like).
24 While Manchester United are still in the Champions League, following the come-from-behind victory over Olympiakos in the last 16, few people hold out much hope for them against the Bundesliga champions Bayern Munich in the quarter-finals. As Paul Hayward wrote following the draw last Friday: "For the first time in decades, gallows humour shapes United's response to a Champions League draw. Expectations are even lower than their league position."
Moyes's experience in European football is limited, his record with Everton reading:
2005-06: Champions League qualifying round defeat to Villarreal
2005-06: Uefa Cup first round defeat to Dinamo Bucharest
2006-07: Did not qualify
2007-08: Uefa Cup round of 16 defeat to Fiorentina
2008-09: Uefa Cup first round defeat to Standard Liege
2009-10: Europa League round of 32 defeat to Sporting Lisbon
2010-11: Did not qualify
2011-12: Did not qualify
2012-13: Did not qualify
25 Moyes has never won a major trophy in his managerial career (he did win the Scottish League with Celtic as a player, and the Second Division with Preston North End as a manager).
PUBLIC APPEARANCE
26 When Moyes first took the job he cast himself in Ferguson's shadow, talking about what a "big job" it was to be replacing the United legend, how "it would take time" for him to adapt, playing down expectations at every possible juncture since then and admitting more recently that he is baffled by United's woeful performances. Recently he even conceded Liverpool were favourites for the match at Old Trafford.
As Henry Winter wrote last night: "It certainly felt both an undeniable truth and an unwise frankness when Moyes remarked that United are 'aspiring to be like City'. Such comments signal the caution, even negativity, of the Moyes era that he should be fighting, not highlighting. He has to start behaving like a Manchester United manager, exuding defiance off the pitch and instilling width, pace and fearlessness on it."
27 Moyes did not help his cause by moving on all of Ferguson's backroom staff and surrounding himself with familiar faces. Dismissing the experience of Rene Meulensteen and Mick Phelan, among others, and replacing them with Steve Round, Phil Neville and co has left himself horribly exposed. Eric Steele, the discarded goalkeeping coach observed: "You had the United perspective - [Ferguson] saying, 'Keep what we've got, keep the continuity, work with them and they'll guide you through. You're taking on a massive machine here. You've gone from Marks and Spencer's to Harrods."
28 There have been reported fallouts with key players, vigorously denied by Moyes. To his credit he handled the Wayne Rooney contract standoff well last summer, but what is not debatable is that the senior players have not stood up for him - captain Nemanja Vidic is off to Internazionale, Patrice Evra is almost certainly returning to France at the end of the season, Rio Ferdinand is likely to become a full-time television pundit, Van Persie's future is shrouded in doubt, and Ryan Giggs has barely been seen on the pitch this year, not being picked for last night's derby despite his virtuoso display against Olympiakos. That is a lot of knowhow that Moyes has failed to tap into.
FINALLY
29 The most trenchant defence for Moyes is that Ferguson struggled in his early seasons at United before becoming the most garlanded coach in English football history. "He must be given time."
But this is not 1986 - football has changed a tad in the intervening 28 years. Moyes inherited a squad that had faults but had won the league title, and joined a club that despite being saddled with debt has plenty of money to spend in the transfer market. He has handled himself with humility and decency during these arduous few months but even some of the loyal Old Trafford support has now turned.
30 While United may not be able to attract managers of the calibre of Jose Mourinho or Carlo Ancelotti as they might have done last summer, there are plenty of deserved candidates who would be interested in the job of reviving one of English football's great institutions. Klopp, who took Dortmund (wage bill lower than Queens Park Rangers) to the Champions League final last season, leads the betting at present.
31 Results are worsening, not improving. Moyes's Manchester United record:
Year Played Won Drawn Lost
2013 29 18 6 5
2014 17 7 2 8
There really is nothing to suggest that downward spiral is going to be reversed.
Even at United it's like that. We've had 2 top managers, and have had 2 consistently successful periods in our history. The rest of the time was changing managers looking for a top manager and getting us to back to the top. Not as rashly as Chelsea have been doing, sacking people after 2 months in charge even though they are still in top 4, but still knowing when to get rid and knowing he's not the one for us. 7th place and getting worse after 9 months is more then enough to show that he's just not cut out for us. When you get a manager who is a good fit, you see certain things within the first year. You see the character of the manager, if he's a defeatist or somebody who always believes in themselves, you see motivated players, you see some resilience, you see a change in style in a positive way. Moyes just hasn't shown anything during his time here, or ever in his time as a manager, that gave promising signs for him taking over.
I'm quoting the oracle that is Big Ron but "big clubs don't have transitional periods". And he's damn right. Sure it is a monumental change at the club without Fergie managing us, it's all most of us have ever known. But I honestly think that it would not have been noticed much had we appointed a top manager like Guardiola or Mourinho to take it on. Either could have managed us and with great distinction. Both have won the CL twice and both managed massive clubs. What more could you possibly want?
Why we never appointed proven quality is totally beyond me, unforgivable. How we never went all out for Mourinho, one of the best managers in the history, is a travesty that will haunt us for many years. Gill wanted a top European manager with vast experience, he said this a few years back. It was a requirement of the job that Fergie's successor had to have "vast experience at the elite of Europe". Gill fecking said it himself then we went against it.
It was only Fergie that was pushing Moyes' name it seems. I honestly thought Fergie had a better grasp on the modern game.
They are expected to win at Old Trafford though, my point exactly. I take it you don't expect Bayern to win and shall be surprised if they do?
The score line is irrelevant, they will have a lot of the ball and will likely dominate the game. Then people will complain and blame Moyes for everything, even for what he fed the players
Even King Eric is chatting shit now, I'm so depressed at this Moyes love in.
They are expected to win at Old Trafford though, my point exactly. I take it you don't expect Bayern to win and shall be surprised if they do?
The score line is irrelevant, they will have a lot of the ball and will likely dominate the game. Then people will complain and blame Moyes for everything, even for what he fed the players
What do you mean the score line is irrelevant, it's very relevant. The odds the bookies put out for last night's game suggests they think the game will be tight and likely to be drawn or decided by 1 goal, not 3.
The Bayern odds suggests the bookies think Bayern are likely to win by 1 goal.
Elaborate please.
Has anyone formally associated with the club discussed Moyes in a negative light? I can't think of anyone.
You are talking about home fixtures, we have been the 12th best team at home this season! We're only 7th because we have more points away than any other team. Everything before the game pointed to a convincing City win.
The odds put out are not based on the scoreline, it's based on how often they think City would win out of x amount of meetings. So City scored in the first minute, the odds drastically changed no?
The players are as much to blame for the poor start as is Moyes. Everybody was praising the formation before the game with 3 in the middle however all the plans went awry after City scored and Moyes went from a more defensive 451 set up to a 4231 looking to get the goal back.
When City scored in the first minute I'm sure the in-play odds responded and adjusted themselves. I mean at 2 - 0 with ages to play I'm sure the odds were ridiculously low. That's how sure the bookies were that United wouldn't make one of their famous comebacks, that's the faith they had...
I have just realised that we play Bayern at home on April fools day. It seems like it is written in the stars for a severe embarrassment for the club with Moyes being crowned King Fool. It will probably be the beginning of the end for him, if not the end and it will go down in the history books, it is too succinct not to.
Eric Harrison?
Even if they harboured negative sentiments (and I'm sure many do), they're not going to go public with them, instead opting with the scripted responses of "Needs time, build squad, etc". I suspect they feel like they'd betray Fergie if they were to badmouth his goldenboy.
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