Moyes So Far!

Status
Not open for further replies.
Loyalty, as a concept, doesn't exist in a vacuum. The club weren't loyal to Sir Alex in the early years because they thought they ought to, they were loyal because of what they could see he was doing with the club overall. The club didn't show loyalty to Sir Alex during our mid 2000s crisis/blip because they thought it'd be rude not to, it's because of his track record, plus they could see the steps he was taking to turn things around.

Loyalty without context is a meaningless, abstract notion. If you had the same plumber for years before he retired and you hire a new one to fix the sink and he ends up flooding the cellar, you don't stick with him on the basis that you had the last bloke a while and you think it's too soon to judge. Loyalty is earned and deserved not automatically assumed. What does it say about the respect, love and trust Ferguson spent decades building up with the fan base if they're traits we're willing to give to any Tom, Dick or Moysie on the basis that we think it's the done thing.

Players don't become heroes just for signing on the dotted line and managers don't get unquestionable loyalty just because of the job they hold.
 
Just goes to show how lucky we are to support United. For all the terrible results and performances we've had to endure in 2014 we're still in the top half of the table!

That's all very well, but expectation-wise it is a completely different thing. If you support Cardiff (or the likes) you'd expect a relegation battle.

No United fan expected mid-table mediocrity when Sir Alex made that speech.
 
Under Moyes we'll struggle not to lose at Everton, Newcastle and Southampton...

...I'm sure we'll go there and try to make it hard for them though.

Moyes probably views the 1999 final as a lost opportunity to obtain a credible 1-0 defeat against a very good side.
 
Did you not expect us to lose that game and lose convincingly?

City were always going to be tough therefore I'm not so sure why people are so upset we lost.
Thanks. I feel much better now.

Puts us in the mood for our tie against Bayern as well. We're gonna be crushed! Horraay!

Let the farce continue.


P.S. Just a little reminder, Real Madrid were also considered favorites last year when we met them in the CL last 16, still, "the better team lost".
 
With Moyes I expect us to lose every game. Seriously.

That doesn't mean that he should be praised because we didn't concede during a period of 25 minutes against City, because we conceded only 3 against Liverpool, because we hit the post against Newcastle or because we beat the mighty Cardif City. When people start praising him for this, it is time to realize how the expectations have fallen when only 12 months ago we went to Madrid with the aspiration of winning. Now we expect to concede 10 goals against Bayern. But it will be alright as long as we manage to make a shoot in target, because that will be a big sign of improvement.

I think expecting us to lose every game is a little over the top however, losing to City, I'm not surprised.

I haven't praised him either, however I'm not quite sure why people expected him to magically make us better for City...
 
I just read somewhere that the odds of United to win the match next Tuesday at about 7.5 is the biggest odds on United to win a home game for over 25 years.

After City went up to 2-0 yesterday, the odds of City to win the game was 1,01! With over 30 minutes to play, at OT!
Nobody believed we could turn things around and why would they, toothless as we are.
 
City are a good side, but Bayern Munich they are NOT. Take a look at their away record this season and it's fair to say last night was one of their easiest wins the whole season.

City are a very good side and everybody made them favourites. What happened was not unexpected.
 
When was the last time you went into a game, any game, before Moyes arrival and thought "we'll probably lose this convincingly"
Without even a glimmer of hope or a prayer of a performance? We're Man Utd for f**ks sake, Champions of England at home at Old Trafford and all we can think of is "We'll lose this game convincingly"? instead of confident, even if we get beaten we'd go down swinging with the best of them?
What the hell has happened to us over the last 8 months.

I'm talking about City specifically and how it seems people expected us to actually win. The reaction on here is different now than it was before the game but that game was expected so not quite sure what has prompted the reaction.
 
I think expecting us to lose every game is a little over the top however, losing to City, I'm not surprised.

I haven't praised him either, however I'm not quite sure why people expected him to magically make us better for City...
They didn't. I expected a humiliation againt them. We're just moaning for getting served the same shit every week and people who can do something being fine by that and being absolutely certain that Moyes is brilliant.

With a good manager in charge, I would have expected us to win yesterday. City is a very vulnerable team.
 
Just goes to show how lucky we are to support United. For all the terrible results and performances we've had to endure in 2014 we're still in the top half of the table!

Yes! Top half! Now where is that Arsenal celebrating-a-throw-in image?

Moyes in.
 
That's all very well, but expectation-wise it is a completely different thing. If you support Cardiff (or the likes) you'd expect a relegation battle.

No United fan expected mid-table mediocrity when Sir Alex made that speech.

Well, obviously.

My point still stands. United fans of the last few decades have been spoilt beyond belief. They've no concept of what supporting a team feels like for fans of the majority of clubs in the league.
 
Wow, wasn't expecting @Pogue Mahone to crack.

On the game, we got rattled by the early goal... shit like that happens. After the first 10 minutes we actually were on top until half time. If both teams could finish properly the score would have been 2-2 at the break. The first 15 minutes after half time was a kick in the groin, and despite the substitutions, we never had a chance, and that is what hurts. Rafael was our best attacker. Rooney kept spraying the ball out wide. Mata was anonymous. Fellaini huffed and puffed when he wasn't assaulting City players. Ferdinand was a disgrace. Biggest of all, Moyes wasn't able to make the best of the situation, come up with a plan to get at City in the second half. All credit to City, they're a step behind the best in Europe, but they have the makings of a fantastic side, and the synergy of their understanding shows. Like it or not, it will take time before Moyes (or another manager) can get us to play like that. And 9 times of 10, the better side on paper wins. We looked just as helpless against City this time 2 years ago.

Going forward? Regarding Moyes... Well this won't do forever. I don't think Moyes should be sacked based on this game alone (come at me 'tards). He hasn't been decent this season, and that is putting it lightly. However if he was going to be sacked, it would have been against Fulham, or Olympiakos first leg, or Liverpool. He wasn't sacked. Ferguson and Charlton are all for giving him time, and since when have the Glazers ever given a flying feck about fans protesting or throwing their toys out the pram? (Remember their takeover, GnG?) So he will have time to rectify that. Do I think he should stay? I'm on the fence. I'm against sacking based on isolated events. If they have a long term plan I want them to stick to the plan. I don't want them to be knee jerky like Abrahamovic. If they manage to grab Klopp, by all means, with the best of wishes, let Moyes go. But bar the best, keep him, until it is absolutely sure we are going nowhere with him. I don't think we have reached that point, maybe if we're playing like this in December, then I will book a ticket to Manchester and bring a big fuck off "Moyes Out" sign to Old Trafford. You can quote that. And I don't want the manager position to be a revolving door for the next few years, we don't have a Bayern like structure that allows for such changes. And fuck Mourinho, he assaults people.

The players? Half of them have been an utter disgrace. Fuck 'em. They've won trophies in the past, but they're getting paid millions to perform a basic job. Ferdinand. Evra. Valencia. Young. Carrick. And Vidic, RVP to some extent. They've let the manager down, they've let the fans down, they've let the younger players down, the new signings they've let down. Carrick's spineless form shying away from tackles, Evra jogging back to defense, Ferdinand half arsing himself through games, Valencia and Young's aversion to anything other than crossing. Our captain's mind is in Milan, and RVP until the last few games moping around because his daddy retired. It was the same last season, but no one said anything because we were winning, and apparently that's all that matters. Of course not, we were carried to the title by RVP and Carrick, and now that they've regressed, we're playing poorly. Shock horror. Regardless of what happens to Moyes, I wouldn't mind if every last one of those players I mentioned left the club at the end of the season. I feel horrible saying all that, but it's the truth. They have been cowards. They have not played like Manchester United players. For that they deserve ire and reproach. Fuck em.

DDG, Rooney have been great this season. Januzaj has shown promise. The young defenders will grow into their roles with time. Cleverley can still turn it around hopefully. Kagawa and Mata have the makings of a great platonic relationship on the pitch. Fellaini has gotten lots of stick, but we haven't seen his best IMO. Nani needs to stop getting injured. The makings of a great side are here. With or without Moyes their talent will eventually yield fruit. Hopefully it is sooner than later.

The match going fans, both home and away? They have been awesome all season. All credit to them, I don't see many bandwagoners amongst them. Hopefully they continue to support the team, and try and give us the extra boost. No one is asking for Moyes songs, but they've done a great song supporting the team despite the frustration with Moyes. The fan who accosted SAF... what an idiot. After all he has done for the club. Go away.

The fans on here? Great discussions, a lot of reasoned people on both sides of the argument, but I've had to take personal breaks from the caf because several Dementors keep on sapping the spirit out of this place after every damned loss, and every rickety win. The signs were there after the infamous loss to Basel, that any prolonged period not spent at the top would make this place annoying, but wow, I never expected it to be as bad as this. Hoping for severe beatings at the hands of City and Liverpool, asking match going fans to boo the team, invading the "Support David Moyes thread"... On twitter and facebook it's even worse, no wonder we get a bad rep as bandwagoners. I feel awful for the mods, goodness knows how worse the newbies must be. I had a newb PM me, accusing me of sucking Moyes off. I love you all, but damn all of you to hell. I think I'll do a Plech and take the summer off from the Caf

Rant over
 
City are a very good side and everybody made them favourites. What happened was not unexpected.

If you want to talk about odds, City was 1/4b favourites, that means the bookies expect City to beat us by 0.25 goals on average, not fuc*ing 3 goals in it.
 
To be fair, I actually noticed that last night. Did one of my standard "youse are all idiots" rants in the match-day thread at half time when everyone was moaning about our abject display. I thought that spell you describe was our best period of football against any top side this season.

I just can't ignore the utter shambles either side of it. They say that the opening 15 minutes and the first 15 minutes after half time are when you see the most evidence of a manager's influence on his team. Which speaks volumes really. One step forwards, two steps back. The theme running throughout this godforsaken season.
Yeah, it's incredibly frustrating. I don't know what happened in that second half, Moyes said something quite interesting in his post match interview where he confirmed that Cleverley was injured but that we had to change it anyway because we were 1-0 down, I didn't think a change had to be made at all, and if he did feel the need then Valencia was the only option. His signings are worrying me too, I rated Moyes in the transfer market very highly at Everton, but I look at Fellaini and I look at this other lad Carvalho and think that if Moyes really believes these are Manchester United midfielders then we're in trouble. Don't get me wrong, Fellaini can be a useful player, and he's much better technically than people think, but he isn't a Manchester United midfielder, I think about Scholes when I watch him and it makes me weep. This notion of steel people crave for, it's a myth, Roy Keane was an incredibly gifted player, he had the physicality, intelligence and the technical ability to play the ball early and forward, and I think it's in underrating Keane that they crave this steeliness in midfield, thinking that's all he was, when he was so much more.

I pointed that out in the Matchday thread that the formation might thrive if there's proper work done on the training ground. However, watching the match today again made me realise he actually stumbled upon it by chance.

When we swapped back to the original 4-4-1-1 formation with Cleverley on the right, we took control of the game because Cleverley was constantly finding space on the right side of the midfield. He wasn't playing as a winger per se, but rather a wide midfielder Iniesta-esque role. Mata was also thriving in it because we had bodies in midfield.

It looked like a good tactical move until you realise that wasn't what he intended when he tried to sub Cleverley off 10 minutes into the game and subsequently subbed him off for Kagawa.
Cleverley was playing the role Mata has been when he plays wide, it wasn't luck. The reason it was working was because Mata was in his actual position which meant he could thrive in the space created, instead of having to roam everywhere and us having Rooney in that role playing higher up the pitch. Also, the fact he brought Kagawa on at half time instead of Valencia sort of proves he knew exactly why it was working, that's what Kagawa had been doing from the left before Mata arrived.
 
Exactly, as expect. But against City, not sure why anybody is surprised...
Well. It's not a surprise, really. More of a realization based on previous performances. A continuation of turd being served, which nobody like it.
 
United have fewer home points in the league than Norwich and Hull (21 points).

United have scored the same number of goals at home in the league as Cardiff and Fulham, the table's bottom two teams (18 goals).

Everton were expected to struggle post-Moyes, almost in the same way United might post-Ferguson. Instead the club has moved to a new level. Under Roberto Martinez they have altered their style of play and have 57 points from 30 games, sitting above United in the league. In Moyes's last five seasons at the club they averaged 12 points fewer
 
I think expecting us to lose every game is a little over the top however, losing to City, I'm not surprised.

I haven't praised him either, however I'm not quite sure why people expected him to magically make us better for City...

Nobody expected that, but myself, including others probably wanted to see some continuity from the West Ham game. Instead he went with a formation that was foreign to the players and attempted make a substitution within the first few minutes of the fecking game. A sub that's been a shambles of a player for two years now. It was all one big mess, like it has been for the entirety of his appointment.
 
Thanks. I feel much better now.

Puts us in the mood for our tie against Bayern as well. We're gonna be crushed! Horraay!

Let the farce continue.


P.S. Just a little reminder, Real Madrid were also considered favorites last year when we met them in the CL last 16, still, "the better team lost".

Everybody knows the expectation is for Bayern to crush us. furthermore, by your little reminder, that implies Moyes should be doing what Ferguson has been doing. To think Moyes should be at Ferguson's level is utter stupidity.
 
They didn't. I expected a humiliation againt them. We're just moaning for getting served the same shit every week and people who can do something being fine by that and being absolutely certain that Moyes is brilliant.

With a good manager in charge, I would have expected us to win yesterday. City is a very vulnerable team.

The mood is different now we have lost than it was prior, with two wins on the bounce.
 
If you want to talk about odds, City was 1/4b favourites, that means the bookies expect City to beat us by 0.25 goals on average, not fuc*ing 3 goals in it.

Did you honestly think City would not beat us by such a margin? The bookies also suspended odds on Moyes getting sacked, yet, no signs of that right?

Using the bookies as a prediction of football scores is ridiculous.
 
The match going fans, both home and away? They have been awesome all season. All credit to them, I don't see many bandwagoners amongst them.
I think some people are starting to lose the grip of what this word means. Nobody here is switching to support City, or is in awe of them for that matter (well apart from one person apparently). We all still love our club and will support it no matter what happens.
if we're playing like this in December, then I will book a ticket to Manchester and bring a big fuck off "Moyes Out" sign to Old Trafford.
What a bandwagoner.
 
I think some people are starting to lose the grip of what this word means. Nobody here is switching to support City, or is in awe of them for that matter (well apart from one person apparently). We all still love our club and will support it no matter what happens.

What a bandwagoner.
:lol:
 
Did you honestly think City would not beat us by such a margin? The bookies also suspended odds on Moyes getting sacked, yet, no signs of that right?

Using the bookies as a prediction of football scores is ridiculous.
Obviously I did, cos I expect us to lose most games under Moyes.

But do you think the bookies offered those odds because they wanted to give away money? As most people expected City to beat us anyway.
 
I think some people are starting to lose the grip of what this word means. Nobody here is switching to support City, or is in awe of them for that matter (well apart from one person apparently). We all still love our club and will support it no matter what happens.

What a bandwagoner.

A lot of rival fans call Manchester United fans bandwagoners. I think this season has refuted all those claims. What was your point again?
 
Nobody expected that, but myself, including others probably wanted to see some continuity from the West Ham game. Instead he went with a formation that was foreign to the players and attempted make a substitution within the first few minutes of the fecking game. A sub that's been a shambles of a player for two years now. It was all one big mess, like it has been for the entirety of his appointment.

Attempted to make a substitution within the first few minutes? Now he can't even successfully complete that! Also, Carrick might have been injured, who knows the reasons for Valencia stripping down the first time. Did you not see Carrick struggle...

Also, his plans were thrown out of the window when we went 1 - 0 down so he reacted and changed to a 4411 that seemed to help for a little while. Now, I don't know about you, but I think it's the job of a manager to react to the situation as opposed to just letting a failing formation continue.
 
Wow, wasn't expecting @Pogue Mahone to crack.

On the game, we got rattled by the early goal... shit like that happens. After the first 10 minutes we actually were on top until half time. If both teams could finish properly the score would have been 2-2 at the break. The first 15 minutes after half time was a kick in the groin, and despite the substitutions, we never had a chance, and that is what hurts. Rafael was our best attacker. Rooney kept spraying the ball out wide. Mata was anonymous. Fellaini huffed and puffed when he wasn't assaulting City players. Ferdinand was a disgrace. Biggest of all, Moyes wasn't able to make the best of the situation, come up with a plan to get at City in the second half. All credit to City, they're a step behind the best in Europe, but they have the makings of a fantastic side, and the synergy of their understanding shows. Like it or not, it will take time before Moyes (or another manager) can get us to play like that. And 9 times of 10, the better side on paper wins. We looked just as helpless against City this time 2 years ago.

Going forward? Regarding Moyes... Well this won't do forever. I don't think Moyes should be sacked based on this game alone (come at me 'tards). He hasn't been decent this season, and that is putting it lightly. However if he was going to be sacked, it would have been against Fulham, or Olympiakos first leg, or Liverpool. He wasn't sacked. Ferguson and Charlton are all for giving him time, and since when have the Glazers ever given a flying feck about fans protesting or throwing their toys out the pram? (Remember their takeover, GnG?) So he will have time to rectify that. Do I think he should stay? I'm on the fence. I'm against sacking based on isolated events. If they have a long term plan I want them to stick to the plan. I don't want them to be knee jerky like Abrahamovic. If they manage to grab Klopp, by all means, with the best of wishes, let Moyes go. But bar the best, keep him, until it is absolutely sure we are going nowhere with him. I don't think we have reached that point, maybe if we're playing like this in December, then I will book a ticket to Manchester and bring a big fuck off "Moyes Out" sign to Old Trafford. You can quote that. And I don't want the manager position to be a revolving door for the next few years, we don't have a Bayern like structure that allows for such changes. And fuck Mourinho, he assaults people.

The players? Half of them have been an utter disgrace. Fuck 'em. They've won trophies in the past, but they're getting paid millions to perform a basic job. Ferdinand. Evra. Valencia. Young. Carrick. And Vidic, RVP to some extent. They've let the manager down, they've let the fans down, they've let the younger players down, the new signings they've let down. Carrick's spineless form shying away from tackles, Evra jogging back to defense, Ferdinand half arsing himself through games, Valencia and Young's aversion to anything other than crossing. Our captain's mind is in Milan, and RVP until the last few games moping around because his daddy retired. It was the same last season, but no one said anything because we were winning, and apparently that's all that matters. Of course not, we were carried to the title by RVP and Carrick, and now that they've regressed, we're playing poorly. Shock horror. Regardless of what happens to Moyes, I wouldn't mind if every last one of those players I mentioned left the club at the end of the season. I feel horrible saying all that, but it's the truth. They have been cowards. They have not played like Manchester United players. For that they deserve ire and reproach. Fuck em.

DDG, Rooney have been great this season. Januzaj has shown promise. The young defenders will grow into their roles with time. Cleverley can still turn it around hopefully. Kagawa and Mata have the makings of a great platonic relationship on the pitch. Fellaini has gotten lots of stick, but we haven't seen his best IMO. Nani needs to stop getting injured. The makings of a great side are here. With or without Moyes their talent will eventually yield fruit. Hopefully it is sooner than later.

The match going fans, both home and away? They have been awesome all season. All credit to them, I don't see many bandwagoners amongst them. Hopefully they continue to support the team, and try and give us the extra boost. No one is asking for Moyes songs, but they've done a great song supporting the team despite the frustration with Moyes. The fan who accosted SAF... what an idiot. After all he has done for the club. Go away.

The fans on here? Great discussions, a lot of reasoned people on both sides of the argument, but I've had to take personal breaks from the caf because several Dementors keep on sapping the spirit out of this place after every damned loss, and every rickety win. The signs were there after the infamous loss to Basel, that any prolonged period not spent at the top would make this place annoying, but wow, I never expected it to be as bad as this. Hoping for severe beatings at the hands of City and Liverpool, asking match going fans to boo the team, invading the "Support David Moyes thread"... On twitter and facebook it's even worse, no wonder we get a bad rep as bandwagoners. I feel awful for the mods, goodness knows how worse the newbies must be. I had a newb PM me, accusing me of sucking Moyes off. I love you all, but damn all of you to hell. I think I'll do a Plech and take the summer off from the Caf

Rant over
Good post. GGMU!
 
United have fewer home points in the league than Norwich and Hull (21 points).

United have scored the same number of goals at home in the league as Cardiff and Fulham, the table's bottom two teams (18 goals).
Good God. How is this being allowed to happen? Any other big club would have hounded him out by now.

Might get slaughtered for saying this as a glory-hunting foreigner but the Old Trafford crowd need to turn on him properly instead of defiantly singing "20 times" through the pain.
 
I think expecting us to lose every game is a little over the top however, losing to City, I'm not surprised.

I haven't praised him either, however I'm not quite sure why people expected him to magically make us better for City...

A year ago we didn't need to magically get better for us to have a hope of beating City at home.
 
Well, obviously.

My point still stands. United fans of the last few decades have been spoilt beyond belief. They've no concept of what supporting a team feels like for fans of the majority of clubs in the league.

It's not quite the black and white statistical matter it may appear to be, if I may lay out a scenario, My old man is a Red and mostly match going fan since the 50's yet he also follows his once local side from where he was born and raised: Gillingham, in league 1 (the old 3rd, don't ask why he follows 2 sides, I couldn't tell you) Gillingham are near the bottom of the table, having sacked their manager earlier in the year, yet he's losing sleep soley over United, why? well for one I think it boils down to expectations of the club for the season, based on management and playing staff available, while Gillingham are having between an average to encouraging year, United have underperformed drastically based on prior expectation entering the season It's all about individual club circumstance and expectation of the squad that defines a good/bad/indifferent season to a fan.
(Though I agree we've been spoilt rotten and those who've thought we have some divine right to win leagues have had a nice dose of reality!)
 
How much longer do we have to put up with this cancer killing our club?

Bayern will be like the chemo next week, painfull but totally necessary to rid us of him.


About as long as I am going to put up with your blatantly insensitive remarks about a manager of a football club.

Karma, if it exists and is listening, would do well to put you through hell later on in your life.
 
Obviously I did, cos I expect us to lose most games under Moyes.

But do you think the bookies offered those odds because they wanted to give away money? As most people expected City to beat us anyway.

The bookies take calculated risks. It does not appear Moyes will be sacked anytime soon therefore how do you explain them suspending betting on that?

It doesn't take a genius to know they will use past data to make future predictions. They don't watch United and say, well, they aren't playing good so let's make odds x,y,z. We watch the games and we knew what was going to happen, the bookies did what was best for business and stuck to their method of using past data to form future predictions or however they do it.

United are 33 / 1 to win the champions league however, I'm not sure any sane man would put money on United winning the champions league once in 33 attempts with the teams left in.

I am not surprised we lost 3 - 0 to City.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.