Moyes So Far!

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Pogue Mahone said:
He tried something new, then didn't have the balls to see it through. My initial concern was trying something new (as in, completely untested) in such a big game but if you're going to try something out the at least have the courage of your convictions. We did improve once we reverted to our usual formation but it was such a regressive step, it was just depressing. City caught us on the hop in the opening minutes and we completely shat ourselves and lost our shape for 10-15 minutes. Chances are things might have settled eventually, anyway, then Moyes could see if his novel approach was working. Instead, he never gave it a chance. That's what did my head in. Along with the valencia/Rooney stuff you mention.

Identifying your personal "final straw" is a pretty inexact science anyway. It's obviously the weight of evidence built up before then that matters most.
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How fecking true can this be? It was like after 5 minutes he felt that he fecked it up somewhere but couldn't pinpoint where was the mistake. His first reaction was for the team to switch back to the previous 4-4-1-1 formation. Cleverley being right side-ish and Fellaini beside Carrick as the midfield duo. Fellaini obviously missed out on the change in plans and continued playing towards the left. And then there's Valencia getting ready to be subbed on at the side after 10 minutes. I don't know whether is it because Carrick looked like he carried an injury or because Moyes was panicking.

His lack of confidence for a top flight manager is just astounding.
 
thepolice123 said:
How fecking true can this be? It was like after 5 minutes he felt that he fecked it up somewhere but couldn't pinpoint where was the mistake. His first reaction was for the team to switch back to the previous 4-4-1-1 formation. Cleverley being right side-ish and Fellaini beside Carrick as the midfield duo. Fellaini obviously missed out on the change in plans and continued playing towards the left. And then there's Valencia getting ready to be subbed on at the side after 10 minutes. I don't know whether is it because Carrick looked like he carried an injury or because Moyes was panicking.

His lack of confidence for a top flight manager is just astounding.
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The commentators were saying that he got his tracksuit back on, sat down on the subs bench and was asked to strip off again about 15 minutes later.

Then what happens at half time? Shinji Kagawa comes on instead.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
He tried something new, then didn't have the balls to see it through. My initial concern was trying something new (as in, completely untested) in such a big game but if you're going to try something out the at least have the courage of your convictions. We did improve once we reverted to our usual formation but it was such a regressive step, it was just depressing. City caught us on the hop in the opening minutes and we completely shat ourselves and lost our shape for 10-15 minutes. Chances are things might have settled eventually, anyway, then Moyes could see if his novel approach was working. Instead, he never gave it a chance. That's what did my head in. Along with the valencia/Rooney stuff you mention.
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It wasn't working, take issue with the fact he set us up that way but criticising him for changing it is totally unfair, particularly considering we improved drastically after it. It was designed to stop Silva but the reason it failed is because Ferdinand plays so fecking deep meaning the whole defensive line is so deep which results in huge pockets of space for our 'dynamic duo/trio' to cover. I haven't checked the stats but I'm sure we've got a good record this season with Evans/Jones/Smalling at centre back, and that's simply due to having a backline that's pushed up higher than the edge of the area. The change certainly wasn't regressive either, it was progressive, particularly if Valencia had come on for Cleverley, like Moyes was going to do but bottled for reasons unknown. There was definitely progress in that first half though.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I've come to the conclusion, though, that he's not cut out for this job. Or at the very least, it will take him so long to grow into the role that in the event he never steps up we'll have wasted a staggering amount of time and money on someone who turns out a failure.
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That's the real scary part here, he's moving into his 10th month in charge next week and he seems to get worse with every week. He may "grow" to be a title winning manager but it would be a huge gamble & will take a number of years.

My biggsst hope now is that he has a clause in that massive contract for no Champions League football. That would help all sides save face & save the club from a huge payout.
 
Mickeza said:
It wasn't working, take issue with the fact he set us up that way but criticising him for changing it is totally unfair
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If the players have been working on that shape/formation all week, of course it sends out poor signals to them when the manager bottles it so early. Moyes doesn't have the courage of his convictions and with every week that passes his team becomes a closer reflection of him, unsure, nervous, like a deer caught in the headlights.
 
Mickeza said:
It wasn't working, take issue with the fact he set us up that way but criticising him for changing it is totally unfair, particularly considering we improved drastically after it. It was designed to stop Silva but the reason it failed is because Ferdinand plays so fecking deep meaning the whole defensive line is so deep which results in huge pockets of space for our 'dynamic duo/trio' to cover. I haven't checked the stats but I'm sure we've got a good record this season with Evans/Jones/Smalling at centre back, and that's simply due to having a backline that's pushed up higher than the edge of the area. The change certainly wasn't regressive either, it was progressive, particularly if Valencia had come on for Cleverley, like Moyes was going to do but bottled for reasons unknown. There was definitely progress in that first half though.
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So it would have been a particularly progressive change if he'd actually had the balls to do something which he ended up bottling for unknown reasons. Damning with faint praise there.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
He tried something new, then didn't have the balls to see it through. My initial concern was trying something new (as in, completely untested) in such a big game but if you're going to try something out the at least have the courage of your convictions. We did improve once we reverted to our usual formation but it was such a regressive step, it was just depressing. City caught us on the hop in the opening minutes and we completely shat ourselves and lost our shape for 10-15 minutes. Chances are things might have settled eventually, anyway, then Moyes could see if his novel approach was working. Instead, he never gave it a chance. That's what did my head in. Along with the valencia/Rooney stuff you mention.

Identifying your personal "final straw" is a pretty inexact science anyway. It's obviously the weight of evidence built up before then that matters most.
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Spot on. The decision to go with an eleven/formation against City not tested this season was just another baffling decision by the manager. He then bottled it and reverted to type.

Not the actions of a man befitting of manager of Manchester United. The job is overcoming him.
 
Tyrion Lannister said:
That's the real scary part here, he's moving into his 10th month in charge next week and he seems to get worse with every week. He may "grow" to be a title winning manager but it would be a huge gamble & will take a number of years.

My biggsst hope now is that he has a clause in that massive contract for no Champions League football. That would help all sides save face & save the club from a huge payout.
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Even if there is no clause, sacking him will not cost as much as having Fellaini around.
 
Well, last night was a bit shit wasn't it? Felt we got battered by the better side. Players in/out needed in the summer. Moyes needs to wake up just as much as the players.
 
Mickeza said:
It wasn't working, take issue with the fact he set us up that way but criticising him for changing it is totally unfair, particularly considering we improved drastically after it. It was designed to stop Silva but the reason it failed is because Ferdinand plays so fecking deep meaning the whole defensive line is so deep which results in huge pockets of space for our 'dynamic duo/trio' to cover. I haven't checked the stats but I'm sure we've got a good record this season with Evans/Jones/Smalling at centre back, and that's simply due to having a backline that's pushed up higher than the edge of the area. The change certainly wasn't regressive either, it was progressive, particularly if Valencia had come on for Cleverley, like Moyes was going to do but bottled for reasons unknown. There was definitely progress in that first half though.
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Come on now, we improved but we didn't improved drastically. We were rocked by the fastest away goal ever at Old Trafford but we grew into the game eventually. Even then our play were so disorganised by the change in tactics that City looked as if they could murder us anytime on the counter.

Our main gripe with him isn't because he changed tactics but rather the drastic change and the time needed for him to do it. Changing your own tactics and even going to the point of wanting to substitute a player after conceding an early goal and 10 minutes into the game just shows a total collapse on your pre-match preparations. I've seen Chelsea getting murdered 3-0 on the first half but come out second half Mourinho makes three substitutes and saves the game. That's a man who knows what he is doing. Moyes clearly panicked at that point in time.
 
Tomalonge said:
Well, last night was a bit shit wasn't it? Felt we got battered by the better side. Players in/out needed in the summer. Moyes needs to wake up just as much as the players.
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Do you honest believe he's going to change? Wake up may not be the right word...
 
Can't pretend I'm not slighty disappointed he hasn't been sacked this morning. He's here until next season now anyway, I'm confident of it. He will want to adapt, and fast. The past nine months have appeared to be a waste of time, both for Moyes and Manchester United.
 
Tomalonge said:
Well, last night was a bit shit wasn't it? Felt we got battered by the better side. Players in/out needed in the summer. Moyes needs to wake up just as much as the players.
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Even the players Moyes brought in Fellaini and Mata were awful for him last night, so we gut our squad and bring in X amount of *his* players?.. it won't by current observation fix all the *motivatinal* wrongs.
 
What I don't understand is that normally when we go behind the players pick up their tempo. It's the cue to start playing like Real Madrid (super beast mode for us last season), now under Moyes we haven't been so good but still this season we have gone into a lesser version (so normal beast mode) but still we showed character and we got back into the game, at the very least we put a lot of pressure on the opponents.

This has become less and less over time and most recently the players don't even try after conceding. I think he has lost those players therefore either the players he has lost go or he goes. Ferguson would rather the former assuming they no longer have the desire, the hunger but I am curious which the board would rather.



Also, what's Chicharito doing for the second goal? Trying to steal it, or just randomly throwing himself into the net?
 
Tyrion Lannister said:
If the players have been working on that shape/formation all week, of course it sends out poor signals to them when the manager bottles it so early. Moyes doesn't have the courage of his convictions and with every week that passes his team becomes a closer reflection of him, unsure, nervous, like a deer caught in the headlights.
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No, it wasn't working. It's ridiculous, he quite rightly got criticised for doing absolutely nothing against Liverpool despite the fact Sterling and Henderson were continually getting in between our lines, he changed it early on against City, the change worked, and now he's getting criticised for making the change.

Pogue Mahone said:
So it would have been a particularly progressive change if he'd actually had the balls to do something which he ended up bottling for unknown reasons. Damning with faint praise there.
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No, it was progressive anyway, astonishingly going from a 4-3-3 designed to pack the centre and stop Silva, which forced one of our best players in Mata out wide, to a 4-4-1-1 with Mata behind Rooney as a central playmaker is more progressive, even if you put Chris Smalling as one of the wide men. It just would have been more effective if he'd stuck Valencia out there to stretch Fernandinho wider and create even more space for Mata, Welbeck and Rooney centrally, even though they actually got quite a lot of space in the latter period of the half anyway, when we were the better side, after the change, you're criticising. Maybe, and here's a crazy thought, David Moyes was in two minds about which formation to pick, had doubts about both, and after he witnessed the 15 minute annihilation that was the opening period realised he'd made a mistake and rectified it. You know, reacted to the situation on the pitch, something he's been criticised for not doing all season.

I may be looking at this from a different perspective, I couldn't watch the game so knew the result before I watched it back last night. I read the comments on here before hand and I thought, "great, another Liverpool performance", but it wasn't that at all. The first half, after the change, we gradually got into the game and, for the last 25 minutes, were the much better side. We passed the ball with a tempo I haven't seen this season, I'm choosing to focus on that instead of focussing on the dire second half, because Moyes isn't going anywhere soon, and signs of improvement, no matter how small, offer at least some hope.
 
A bunch of friends of mine are all giggling amongst themselves at his cluelessness, and the way we had to guard the banner last night to stop the fans from taking it down. We're in utter meltdown, lads, and the rest of the league is loving it. We're the laughing stock of England.

Well in, David.
 
At least we don't have to play anyone from the top 4 anymore. Everton is the only 75%> chance of loss I can see from our fixtures.

Hopefully we can end the season on a high.
 
BennyBlanco said:
Even the players Moyes brought in Fellaini and Mata were awful for him last night, so we gut our squad and bring in X amount of *his* players?.. it won't by current observation fix all the *motivatinal* wrongs.
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Thanks for sharing your view.

They were all shit. Mistakes have been made, I'm not denying that. Difference is you're pinning it on one man while I'm pissed off with the lot of them. They all let us down, only Rooney can hold his head up after that shit last night. We've had these nights before and the result was expected.
 
Hernandez - BFA said:
At least we don't have to play anyone from the top 4 anymore. Everton is the only 75%> chance of loss I can see from our fixtures.

Hopefully we can end the season on a high.
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There's another 3 league defeats left in us this season. Everton & Southampton are certanties. Newcastle may do us. Not looking forward to Villa on Saturday either.
 
Sadly it looked as if the way we played Saturday was just something he accidentally stumbled upon. Had RVP not been injured in the European game then Saturday would have been the same lifeless, uninspiring and ineffectual system that average teams have found it piss easy to nullify all season. I'm not even sure the few things he does right he does so intentionally. RVP's injury forcing him to try something a bit different probably saved him from having to say "oops, sorry my fault!" twice in four days.

What do we anticipate vs Villa at the weekend? A sign the manager is noticing and addressing concerns that everyone must have about the way his team plays or same old shit followed by either "we were unlucky" or "I take responsibility" followed by no actual taking of responsibility whatsoever.
 
Mickeza said:
I may be looking at this from a different perspective, I couldn't watch the game so knew the result before I watched it back last night. I read the comments on here before hand and I thought, "great, another Liverpool performance", but it wasn't that at all. The first half, after the change, we gradually got into the game and, for the last 25 minutes, were the much better side. We passed the ball with a tempo I haven't seen this season, I'm choosing to focus on that instead of focussing on the dire second half, because Moyes isn't going anywhere soon, and signs of improvement, no matter how small, offer at least some hope.
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To be fair, I actually noticed that last night. Did one of my standard "youse are all idiots" rants in the match-day thread at half time when everyone was moaning about our abject display. I thought that spell you describe was our best period of football against any top side this season.

I just can't ignore the utter shambles either side of it. They say that the opening 15 minutes and the first 15 minutes after half time are when you see the most evidence of a manager's influence on his team. Which speaks volumes really. One step forwards, two steps back. The theme running throughout this godforsaken season.
 
Plugsy said:
Sadly it looked as if the way we played Saturday was just something he accidentally stumbled upon. Had RVP not been injured in the European game then Saturday would have been the same lifeless, uninspiring and ineffectual system that average teams have found it piss easy to nullify all season. I'm not even sure the few things he does right he does so intentionally. RVP's injury forcing him to try something a bit different probably saved him from having to say "oops, sorry my fault!" twice in four days.

What do we anticipate vs Villa at the weekend? A sign the manager is noticing and addressing concerns that everyone must have about the way his team plays or same old shit followed by either "we were unlucky" or "I take responsibility" followed by no actual taking of responsibility whatsoever.
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One would expect based on this seasons trend, for us to pick up maximum points against Villa, it does seem to be the way of things, one or perhaps two half decent results against vastly lesser opposition, sandwiched between bone jarring humilation, Villa would no doubt serve as the uplift for the Moyes enablers to refind their voice, before Bayern expose us as frauds once more.
Saying that... Villa seem much better away from home due to their setup and personnel, perhaps even that result shouldn't be taken at liberty.
 
BennyBlanco said:
One would expect based on this seasons trend, for us to pick up maximum points against Villa, it does seem to be the way of things, one or perhaps two half decent results against vastly lesser opposition, sandwiched between bone jarring humilation, Villa would no doubt serve as the uplift for the Moyes enablers to refind their voice, before Bayern expose us as frauds once more.
Saying that... Villa seem much better away from home due to their setup and personel, perhaps even that result shouldn't be taken at liberty.
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One thing is for certain that even if we do beat Villa, thump them even in what is called our best performance not only of the season but of the last few years, it is 100% guaranteed that he'll completely change the system and personnel for the Bayern game. If Kagawa, Januzaj, Nani, Fletcher and Evans play at the weekend and have the game of their lives, they'll be nowhere near the starting 11 come Tuesday.
 
Plugsy said:
One thing is for certain that even if we do beat Villa, thump them even in what is called our best performance not only of the season but of the last few years, it is 100% guaranteed that he'll completely change the system and personnel for the Bayern game. If Kagawa, Januzaj, Nani, Fletcher and Evans play at the weekend and have the game of their lives, they'll be nowhere near the starting 11 come Tuesday.
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His (mis?)management of the squad has been another black mark against him, and quite fairly in all honesty, in the opening months it was assumed by most his reasoning for changing our personnel game to game, week to week, could be explained away by giving "everyone a chance" , inhreting a new squad and all that... but here we are 31 games into the Premier League season, another 10 or so games added in all competitions and it's still a recurring theme.

edit: f**king hell my spelling is s**t.
 
Mickeza said:
I may be looking at this from a different perspective, I couldn't watch the game so knew the result before I watched it back last night. I read the comments on here before hand and I thought, "great, another Liverpool performance", but it wasn't that at all. The first half, after the change, we gradually got into the game and, for the last 25 minutes, were the much better side. We passed the ball with a tempo I haven't seen this season, I'm choosing to focus on that instead of focussing on the dire second half, because Moyes isn't going anywhere soon, and signs of improvement, no matter how small, offer at least some hope.
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I pointed that out in the Matchday thread that the formation might thrive if there's proper work done on the training ground. However, watching the match today again made me realise he actually stumbled upon it by chance.

When we swapped back to the original 4-4-1-1 formation with Cleverley on the right, we took control of the game because Cleverley was constantly finding space on the right side of the midfield. He wasn't playing as a winger per se, but rather a wide midfielder Iniesta-esque role. Mata was also thriving in it because we had bodies in midfield.

It looked like a good tactical move until you realise that wasn't what he intended when he tried to sub Cleverley off 10 minutes into the game and subsequently subbed him off for Kagawa.
 
Tomalonge said:
Can brown-tinted specs become a thing now? Some people only see shit. There were some positives last night. (Only about 20 minutes worth, granted)
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Well we looked less cack than we have looked most of this season for about 15-20 minutes. My expectations of a side capable of what our squad is, isn't pacified by that just yet.
 
Tomalonge said:
Thanks for sharing your view.

They were all shit. Mistakes have been made, I'm not denying that. Difference is you're pinning it on one man while I'm pissed off with the lot of them. They all let us down, only Rooney can hold his head up after that shit last night. We've had these nights before and the result was expected.
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To be fair, I thought Rafael also showed the character we want.

He hasn't got control over the key influences on the team (in terms of players). We went behind and still no desire, I mean, that's surely a cue to the players to pick up the tempo and start playing with some fire. They refused to do it, it's like they were already mentally beaten and were content with going through the motions.

Something is wrong in terms of their mental attitude. I don't know who to blame for that to be honest, but if somebody isn't giving 100% then they need to be dropped.

Any team depends on a central midfielder to demand the ball and then move it around quickly. Carrick doesn't seem to care, he hasn't the urgency and so we have no tempo. Mata messed up but he did still demand the ball, I would even put Mata central midfield and ask him to play the tempo setting role temporarily of getting the ball much deeper than the number 10 and moving it about. Carrick is fine as an anchor man but he hasn't the urgency to make us tick.

As big of a risk as it is, we need somebody who can start the attack letting those up top finish it. Play 3 in the middle, let Carrick be the anchor and somebody more physical like Fellaini but then have Mata dropped deep too and give him the free role even. Play Welbeck LW, Rooney ST and either Valencia or Nani wide.

No idea if it will work though but without somebody moving the ball around quickly we are helpless.

I would even consider playing 4-3-3, let Carrick be the anchor, ask Mata to play in Xavi's zones and pull the strings from the centre and then get Rooney to play the iniesta role, the zones where he did against Olympiakos and then put Welbeck up top and Kagawa LW and then Nani or Valencia RW.

Whatever we do, don't bother with Mata on the right and have somebody who has the desire to move the ball around from the centre.
 
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Empire said:
Something is wrong in terms of their mental attitude. I don't know who to blame for that to be honest, but if somebody isn't giving 100% then they need to be dropped.
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Its bound to be a remarkable coincidence that they all lost mental desire at the same time. Maybe it was something they each ate in late July.
 
Tomalonge said:
Can brown-tinted specs become a thing now? Some people only see shit. There were some positives last night. (Only about 20 minutes worth, granted)
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Yeah, we played well at times. That's not the issue though. We were unprepared and had no idea what to do last night most of the time.. Good play doesn't excuse bad planning, lack of motivation and useless tactics.
 
Plugsy said:
Well we looked less cack than we have looked most of this season for about 15-20 minutes. My expectations of a side capable of what our squad is, isn't pacified by that just yet.
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That's absolutely fine and understandable.

I've always said that I've got the patience of a musician. I've seen some of the least naturally talented people struggle through for years then one day it clicks. I'm hoping (not expecting) this is the case with Moyes. He certainly doesn't give the impression of a natural.
 
Whilst i'm still behind Moyes, even if we did something miraculous and made it to the CL final or win our remaining games, I believe that he will never win the respect of the fans for many many years. Some of the bitterness towards him on social media, Redcafe, FB etc is just beyond reason really. Sure, every club will have fans that have a gripe with manager/players/board and so on, but for Moyes it may have gone too far.
It would take a massive title push next season to win many fans back...at least, maybe.
I'm behind him and will remain so until he fecks it up with a squad that he has built. That may be next season, maybe the season after, but I don't sit on the board and will have no say or input in to whether he stays or goes, so I may as well get behind him and see how it pans out - can't be any worse can it?
He will most probably get the duration of his contract to prove us right or wrong - that could be a bitter few years for those wanting him out so passionately now.
 
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