Moyes So Far!

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I think top 4 being minimum expectation is very fair. Surely the same can be said about Arse, Chelsea and City. All those clubs know that is their minimum too.

Its kind of nuts that we are even contemplating not finishing in the top 4, but I must admit like many I am concerned. We are in a very uncertain time for the club.

And I do think he would deserve the chop if he fails to qualify, sadly
 
Falling out of the top 4 is definitely a possibility. It's what you do with Moyes if that happens which becomes an issue
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That's exactly what I'm getting at.

Once you accept that Moyes won't get the same results out of this squad as Fergie did - and take into account the improvement in other teams - then top 4 is by no means guaranteed, whether or not Moyes has the chops to replace Fergie in the long term.
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Ye well there is a HUGE difference between expecting the success we had under Fergie and expecting to scrape into CL qualification, so I have no idea why you put them in the same point.

Anyway there has to be a minimum expectation level where you think any less is a failure - mine is top 4, what is yours?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Dunno if anyone listens to the second captains podcast but Richie Sadler made a really interesting point about whichever manager takes over from Fergie. He reckons that a big reason Fergie always got teams to punch above their weight was because his place as manager of the club was assured as long as he wanted it. There could never be any doubt that he would be there next season, or the season after that. This meant that if we went through a dodgy spell the players had nobody to blame but themselves. They couldn't cop out by putting the blame on the manager, assuming he wasn't up to the job or incapable of steering them to the trophies they wanted. If they wanted to have successful careers the onus was 100% on them to up their fecking game and drag themselves out of this slump. If they could do that, history had proven that Fergie was the man to get them right up there at the end of the season.

United was almost unique in this regard. At very other club you had managerial churn and you would regularly hear reports about X "losing the dressing room", meaning players had decided their season was fecked and it wasn't their fault. This would be a particular problem when dealing with players with high opinions of themselves. Players who've already won a load of medals. Sound familiar?

I've no idea if Moyes is up to the job of replacing Fergie but am going to give him a fair crack of the whip on the basis that Fergie picked him for the job. I don't think people appreciate just how difficult his job is, though, and I find it interesting that people remain so convinced that falling out of the top four is inconceivable and that our squad is so good that we should continue being no less succesful than we've been in recent years under Fergie. I reckon they're in for a very rude awakening and it could well be a case of years, rather than months, of under-achievement before United start to dominate again. In fact, there's every chance none of us will see a repeat of our recent period of sustained success again in our lifetime.
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Good post, good points (you shouldn't have credited Second Captains... claim this shit as your own!) and I think the bit in bold is almost a certainty.

I always knew the good times would be over as soon as Fergie left - it'd be nigh on impossible to replicate the job he did for us - I think it's just a bit of a harder punch to the stomach considering how quickly it all happened - from the announcement to Moyes... I always expected Fergie would announce at the start of the season when it would be his last.

Like I keep saying to my friends though - we're now supporting a normal club, so we should all be prepared for the shit that normal clubs go through.
 
Rather SAF is here or not, there's high standards at this club, and those standards should not instantly go out the fecking window when the man who built them has retired. We're not anywhere close to having as bad a squad as Liverpool did when they dropped out of the top four. It shouldn't be acceptable and I imagine it wouldn't if it happened. Moyes deserves to be given a lot of time, but a line surely has to be drawn too.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That's exactly what I'm getting at.

Once you accept that Moyes won't get the same results out of this squad as Fergie did - and take into account the improvement in other teams - then top 4 is by no means guaranteed, whether or not Moyes has the chops to replace Fergie in the long term.
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We have finished with the most points in the league in 6 of the last 7 seasons. I think everyone would accept dropping to 3rd or 4th in the table for a couple of years.

Dropping out of the top 4 altogether is a step too far.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That's exactly what I'm getting at.

Once you accept that Moyes won't get the same results out of this squad as Fergie did - and take into account the improvement in other teams - then top 4 is by no means guaranteed, whether or not Moyes has the chops to replace Fergie in the long term.
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There is a big difference by not being able to win the league with the team who won it (by 11 points) last season to not being able to qulify for UCL.

Randall Flagg said:
I think top 4 being minimum expectation is very fair. Surely the same can be said about Arse, Chelsea and City. All those clubs know that is their minimum too.

Its kind of nuts that we are even contemplating not finishing in the top 4, but I must admit like many I am concerned. We are in a very uncertain time for the club.

And I do think he would deserve the chop if he fails to qualify, sadly
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There are people who were happy with the Moyes appointment and thought that he'll win the title. Now some of them are saying that even if we don't get the fourth place is all fine.

Agree with you that he deserves to get sacked if we finish outside of UCL season, that must be the absolute minimum he has to achieve in order to continue being the manager. In fact, I think that even fourth place is a big underachievement.
 
If we sack Moyes at the first sign of adversity then we'll quickly become one of these clubs that just goes through managers like no tomorrow. We've laughed at other clubs for the same but now we're advocating it happening here.

He needs to be given time to see what he can do with the team.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
We have finished with the most points in the league in 6 of the last 7 seasons. I think everyone would accept dropping to 3rd or 4th in the table for a couple of years.

Dropping out of the top 4 altogether is a step too far.
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I know that the difference between 4th and 5th is set in stone, as far as CL football is concerned. In real terms, though, I think it's a finer line than it has been for many years.

This would be the case no matter who was in charge. Bale's development into the most expensive footballer in the planet (and Spurs' subsequent re-investment of every penny in their squad) along with Arsenal finally holding on to their best players and unlocking their cheque book to more than double their previous transfer record means they both have to be taken seriously. City/Chelsea continually spend enough money to guarantee a top 4 place and even fecking Liverpool might have finally got their shit together.

For me, the points spread between the top 5 teams will be one of the lowest in the history of the league. Where we sit in that spread is a matter of very fine margins. I just don't buy this "too good to finish 5th" idea. It ignores the many significant changes that have taken place at other teams in the league.
 
pocco said:
If we sack Moyes at the first sign of adversity then we'll quickly become one of these clubs that just goes through managers like no tomorrow. We've laughed at other clubs for the same but now we're advocating it happening here.

He needs to be given time to see what he can do with the team.
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Not getting the fourth place with the current champions is much bigger than the first sign of adversity. The first bad signs was the pre-season and if Moratti was our president, Moyes wouldn't have survived the summer. Does anyone here wants that? Of course not, but also putting a blind faith that if we give him time he'll become SAF MK2 is not very smartish. Unless we continue being this poor, he should get the entire season and see how things go. For me, fourth place is the absolute minimum what is acceptable from Moyes. I think that it's the minimum Glazers would accept too.
 
Ultimately United have become a club that is heavily commercialized and is run by money men like Woodward and the Glazers who have become accustomed to SAF's consistency. UCL non qualification in their eyes would be disastrous. I wouldn't entirely be surprised if Moyes has been told that that is his minimum target every season. If he fails there I expect his position to come under severe scrutiny.
 
Revan said:
Not getting the fourth place with the current champions is much bigger than the first sign of adversity. The first bad signs was the pre-season and if Moratti was our president, Moyes wouldn't have survived the summer. Does anyone here wants that? Of course not, but also putting a blind faith that if we give him time he'll become SAF MK2 is not very smartish. Unless we continue being this poor, he should get the entire season and see how things go. For me, fourth place is the absolute minimum what is acceptable from Moyes. I think that it's the minimum Glazers would accept too.
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We'll never have another Alex Ferguson, or any longevity for that matter, with this type of thinking. There's not a manager out there that comes with guarantees. Who would we even hire to replace him? Harry Redknapp?
 
pocco said:
People are banging on about dropping out of the CL but Fergie took us into the Europa League not long back, with this squad of players too.
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That's quite different and if you can't see that then you need your head checked.

It's one thing to drop out after the group stage, it's a whole other thing to not qualify at all. As Liverpool themselves have found if you drop out of CL places in the Premier League it's quite hard to get back in.
 
pocco said:
If we sack Moyes at the first sign of adversity then we'll quickly become one of these clubs that just goes through managers like no tomorrow. We've laughed at other clubs for the same but now we're advocating it happening here.

He needs to be given time to see what he can do with the team.
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He needs to be given time to build a title-winning team. Top four is the minimum requirement. This was so obvious that it probably wouldn't even have been discussed. Being patient with our manager means sticking with him even if we don't win anything, and if he fails to finish top four with this squad, his position will be under consideration and rightly so. Us sacking him for not finishing top four will not be the same as the likes of Chelsea, City and Real as they have sacked their managers after even winning the league or finishing in top two. If you can't see the difference between this situation and theirs, then there is no point in continuing discussion. Again, my point is, that Moyes should be given plenty of time to build his title winning team provided he finishes in top four. Once you drop out of top four, your priorities become getting back into it, something which we have always taken as a given.
 
pocco said:
We'll never have another Alex Ferguson, or any longevity for that matter, with this type of thinking. There's not a manager out there that comes with guarantees. Who would we even hire to replace him? Harry Redknapp?
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Marcelo Bielsa, Cesare Prandelli, Fabio Capello, Jupp Heynckess, Gus Hiddink in the top of my mind.
 
pocco said:
People are banging on about dropping out of the CL but Fergie took us into the Europa League not long back, with this squad of players too.
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After the UCL group stages. Big differnece.

Also, SAF had enough good credit to feck up for about 20 years in a row before anyone at the club would dare even question his position.
 
Bestie07 said:
He needs to be given time to build a title-winning team. Top four is the minimum requirement. This was so obvious that it probably wouldn't even have been discussed. Being patient with our manager means sticking with him even if we don't win anything, and if he fails to finish top four with this squad, his position will be under consideration and rightly so. Us sacking him for not finishing top four will not be the same as the likes of Chelsea, City and Real as they have sacked their managers after even winning the league or finishing in top two. If you can't see the difference between this situation and theirs, then there is no point in continuing discussion. Again, my point is, that Moyes should be given plenty of time to build his title winning team provided he finishes in top four. Once you drop out of top four, your priorities become getting back into it, something which we have always taken as a given.
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Football didn't start with the Premier League.
 
pocco said:
People are banging on about dropping out of the CL but Fergie took us into the Europa League not long back, with this squad of players too.
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We failed in group stage but we were in UCL. Completely different to finishing outside of top 4.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
That's quite different and if you can't see that then you need your head checked.

It's one thing to drop out after the group stage, it's a whole other thing to not qualify at all. As Liverpool themselves have found if you drop out of CL places in the Premier League it's quite hard to get back in.
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It's not a massive difference at all, I just think this is another hypothetical stick to beat Moyes with already.
 
pocco said:
It's not a massive difference at all, I just think this is another hypothetical stick to beat Moyes with already.
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There is a massive difference as pointed out by others already. I agree it is a hypothetical stick as it hasn't happened yet but finishing in the top 4 should be a minimum for a competent manager with this squad.
 
Sorry, but I know the team needs strengthened in certain areas but if we fall out of the top 4 this season then Moyes should be sacked.
 
This is an extract from the match report in the DT.

"Moyes is undoubtedly correct in his assessment (that he requires two new players to go straight into the team). United do lack quality, particularly in midfield, but there is a danger that he is giving his players an excuse for failure by repeatedly high-lighting their failures. Ferguson in contrast would never talk his team down. He would often exaggerate the potential of his players simply to instil the belief that they could achieve great things. The mind games started at home, in the United dressing room and Ferguson's psychology delivered the results, but the message from Moyes is one of fear and concern and he may need to find a way of saying something he does not believe in order to to put his team back on track."

Someone said earlier in the thread that Moyes needs PR training. That is true, not just in saying the right things to the press but in keeping the players motivated at the same time. I don't think Moyes is capable of such a balancing act and he is not aided by the coaching team he has round him.


Edited to correct spelling.
 
pocco said:
It's not a massive difference at all, I just think this is another hypothetical stick to beat Moyes with already.
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Of course it's a massive difference. Manchester United win the league, qualify for the CL group stages, subsequently finish third and qualify for the Europa League vs Manchester United finish 5th and qualify for the Europa League.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
That's quite different and if you can't see that then you need your head checked.

It's one thing to drop out after the group stage, it's a whole other thing to not qualify at all. As Liverpool themselves have found if you drop out of CL places in the Premier League it's quite hard to get back in.
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It is when another oligarch sets up shop in the Premier League. Ever since City got a cash injection a top four finish has got harder than at any point in previous years. If Arsenal finally start spending big (which they have done already) then that task becomes harder still. But hey, let's all decide that the manager taking over from Fergie should get the sack unless he manages that task in his debut season.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Most of 'em are just about a hundred years old, mate.
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We didn't really need a "young manager to find another dynasty". That would have been impossible in this day and age. We needed someone with the nous to be able to handle the shadow of Ferguson. Reality is experience at the top should have been a priority.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That's exactly what I'm getting at.

Once you accept that Moyes won't get the same results out of this squad as Fergie did - and take into account the improvement in other teams - then top 4 is by no means guaranteed, whether or not Moyes has the chops to replace Fergie in the long term.
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Moyes not getting the same results as Fergie and finishing outside the top four are two very, very different things. In the last seven seasons we won the title five times and missed out on goal difference and by one point, respectively. There is a middle ground between that dominance and the Europa League.

If Moyes can't steer this squad into the top 4 then he's not good enough. And that has nothing to do with replicating the achievements of Fergie because frankly, you don't have to be a managerial legend to finish fourth with Manchester United. You just have to be competent.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It is when another oligarch sets up shop in the Premier League. Ever since City got a cash injection a top four finish has got harder than at any point in previous years. If Arsenal finally start spending big (which they have done already) then that task becomes harder still. But hey, let's all decide that the manager taking over from Fergie should get the sack unless he manages that task in his debut season.
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Well if Fergie left the club in a total mess I would agree. But it's not like we are asking Moyes to replicate the previous season. We're asking him to do something that has been managed since for the last 20+ years.

If we don't finish in the top 4 this season it will become even harder to get back in unless we start spending to proportions we haven't done in years.
 
Rednails said:
This is an extract from the match report in the DT.

"Moyes is undoubtedly correct in his assent (that he requires two new players to go straight into the team). United do lack quality, particularly in midfield, but there is a danger that he is giving his players an excuse for failure by repeatedly high-lighting their failures. Ferguson in contrast would never talk his team down. He would often exaggerate the potential of his players simply to instil the belief that they could achieve great things. The mind games started at home, in the United dressing room and Ferguson's psychology delivered the results, but the message from Moyes is noe of fear and concern and he may need to find a way of saying something he does not believe in order to to put his team back on track."

Someone said earlier in the thread that Moyes needs PR training. That is true, not just in saying the right things to the press but in keeping the players motivated at the same time. I don't think Moyes is capable of such a balancing act and he is not aided by the coaching team he has round him.
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If what he was saying was such a disaster then I'm sure Fergie would say something to him, given that they're best mates and talking all the fecking time. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if he sought his advice before coming out with this. He's challenging the players, champions react to this. Let's see who reacts.
 
You kind of get the impression he's setting himself up for damage limitation. Essentially writing us off in the Champions League, playing down our losses in the league with comments such as "every team loses games". Title winning squad or not, this is not Moyes' team and I think he's suffering as a result. As good as our squad is, our best eleven doesn't match up to the top European clubs anymore and unlike Fergie, he's seems to be unable get the best out of what is actually an excellent squad.

He's clearly struggling to identify what his best eleven would be. It's tricky for him because we are at a time where our once world class defenders in Evra, Rio and Vidic are on the decline, and our young defenders, while promising, are still not quite there yet. Our centre midfield is a mess, either having to play players out of position, aren't good enough yet or will never be good enough. Our wide options, while fairly strong, are limited by average players who seem to be getting games ahead of the others. Our striking options are seemingly our best asset, but with the miss that is our midfield we aren't half making life difficult for our strikers.

He should have solved this in the transfer window, but didn't, and he and Woody should be held accountable. I do think we should give him the benefit of the doubt for now and let him have a season to prepare targets properly and at least get a feel for players that would actually consider joining us. The good news is that he has established the need for world class players and hopefully with a sufficient amount of time to identify targets, that's what we'll get next summer, as well as clearing out the deadwood.

Things are looking shit right lets to be honest, but he does need a season to begin to make his mark. However, I do believe it's unacceptable for our club, with the squad of players it has, to even entertain the possibility of falling outside of the top 4. If this does actually happen then he should be out of the door straight away. If a manager cannot take our squad of players from day 1 and achieve what I would see as the minimum requirement (top 4) for our club in the modern footballing era, then he is not good enough.

A lot has changed in football since Liverpool's fall from grace, and it would take a major balls-up for a club of our size to follow suit. Lets hope David Moyes is not that balls-up.

At this point, i'd be happy if we get top 4 and a decent run in one or two of the cups, and I wouldn't be surprised if that isn't Moyes' target now himself (or maybe even from the start?)
 
Some people are so thick they're beyond reason. I doubt anybody will throw their toys out of the pram if we don't win anything this season but finish in top 3. If we finish in fourth, Moyes should and will be given more time to try and get us back fighting for trophies. If you drop from first to outside top four without any major changes in the squad, then questions need to be asked. Anyhow, we are all arguing over hypotheticals because I do believe we will finish top three.
 
Siorac said:
Moyes not getting the same results as Fergie and finishing outside the top four are two very, very different things. In the last seven seasons we won the title five times and missed out on goal difference and by one point, respectively. There is a middle ground between that dominance and the Europa League.

If Moyes can't steer this squad into the top 4 then he's not good enough. And that has nothing to do with replicating the achievements of Fergie because frankly, you don't have to be a managerial legend to finish fourth with Manchester United. You just have to be competent.
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Not sure if you read this post and ignored it, or haven't read it yet. It highlights the obvious reasons why it will take more than simply being "competent" to secure a top four slot this season.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
We didn't really need a "young manager to find another dynasty". That would have been impossible in this day and age. We needed someone with the nous to be able to handle the shadow of Ferguson. Reality is experience at the top should have been a priority.
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That's not the point. They're approaching seventy, these boys. Anyway, he didn't say we should've replaced Fergie with any of them - rather that we could hire one to replace Moyes, which would make them even older, so to speak.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
That's not the point. They're approaching seventy, these boys. Anyway, he didn't say we should've replaced Fergie with any of them - rather that we could hire one to replace Moyes, which would make them even older, so to speak.
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I think taking them on for one or two seasons would be better than hiring Harry Redknapp or someone equivalent.
 
Bestie07 said:
Some people are so thick they're beyond reason. I doubt anybody will throw their toys out of the pram if we don't win anything this season but finish in top 3. If we finish in fourth, Moyes should and will be given more time to try and get us back fighting for trophies. If you drop from first to outside top four without any major changes in the squad, then questions need to be asked. Anyhow, we are all arguing over hypotheticals because I do believe we will finish top three.
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Big difference between asking questions and handing Moyes his P45. I've always maintained finishing 5 or lower will be disappointing. If we don't win any cup competition then Moyes will be under serious pressure. It shouldn't and wouldn't be a case for summary dismissal though, which is what a lot of people are claiming.
 
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