Moyes So Far!

[Chesterlestreet]

I think taking them on for one or two seasons would be better than hiring Harry Redknapp or someone equivalent.

Hehe - yeah, by all means: I don't deny that!

 

[Revan]

Meh, they'd last a year or two before being hounded out for not winning anything one season, or something like that.

They have all win (except Prandelli who hasn't won anything but has been brilliant for Viola and Italy) much more than Moyes. Prandelli, Bielsa, Heyckness are also known for attacking play. All of them have been shown that they are much better managers than Moyes.

I stand by opinion that having a manager for long term shouldn't be the priority when choosing the manager. If he's good and turns out to be loyal, wonderful. But we don't need a loyal mediocre manager.

Anyway, my point was that there are available managers in case Moyes fails this year. You changed the point.

Most of 'em are just about a hundred years old, mate.

Bielsa has another decade in him. Prandelli more. The other three are old but can go a 'savier job' for a year or two if things go completely wrong.

 

[blythy]

I said it at the time - making wholesale changes to the back room staff could be a mistake. I appreciate that he wanted his own team and wanted to make his mark - but you cannot under estimate the value of the experience of the likes of Phelan, Steele and Meulensteen.

That said - he needs a lot more than 6 (league) games before we start judging him.

 

[pocco]

Yeah, is the club today exactly the same as 25 years ago? By always, I of course meant the recent past. We have no God given right to always be in top four, but that is what we should expect from ourselves at the minimum.

From ourselves? Support and trust. Hiring Moyes is Fergies last call as manager and I'm going to bet right now that it'll be one of his best decisions.

This isn't like signing a player or anything like that. He knows Moyes extremely well, he knows exactly how he works, how he'd fit in here, what type of football he'd have us playing, he knows that he has the bollocks to lead a top team. They're basically two peas in a pod and this has been said time and time again.

There's no way Fergie will misjudge him with all the prior insight that he has into Moyes.

 

[Bestie07]

Big difference between asking questions and handing Moyes his P45. I've always maintained finishing 5 or lower will be disappointing. If we don't win any cup competition then Moyes will be under serious pressure. It shouldn't and wouldn't be a case for summary dismissal though, which is what a lot of people are claiming.

This is very subjective though. If we continue to play the brand of football we were playing in Ferguson's last years but with much worse results (outside top four), then Moyes has to walk.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

They have all win (except Prandelli who hasn't won anything but has been brilliant for Viola and Italy) much more than Moyes. Prandelli, Bielsa, Heyckness are also known for attacking play. All of them have been shown that they are much better managers than Moyes.

I stand by opinion that having a manager for long term shouldn't be the priority when choosing the manager. If he's good and turns out to be loyal, wonderful. But we don't need a loyal mediocre manager.

Anyway, my point was that there are available managers in case Moyes fails this year. You changed the point

Well that's where you and SAF (and by extension, presumably, the owners) disagree. They're clearly trying to recreate what helped Fergie's turn the club into a dominant force. Consistency of approach. I suggest you revise that opinion or face a lot of upset in the years ahead.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

From ourselves? Support and trust. Hiring Moyes is Fergies last call as manager and I'm going to bet right now that it'll be one of his best decisions.

This is an internet forum, me saying Moyes should perhaps be let go if he fails to finish in the top 4 isn't a huge deal. If we started booing after a bad defeat like on Saturday then that's probably taking it a bit far.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Read the sentence again - the point is not about rotation.

Nothing wrong with rotation, in fact it is vital when you are fighting on several fronts but you have to find the right balance between continuity and keeping everyone fresh - Moyes is struggling with that.

I completely agree with you, I think Fergie was a genius at managing the squad and that Moyes so far is struggling with that aspect. What's worse, to be honest, is that I think he's trying to replicate Fergie's pattern but not quite managing it. Though I'm not panicking, I recognize that it's probably one of the hardest things to master and will come with time. I doubt he was confronted with this type of problem when at Everton.

Also, a lot of people are criticizing his 'I'm getting to know some players better', I'm pretty sure he doesn't mean he's going to walk up to Kagawa and say 'hiya lad so what's your position? Fullback?', I'm sure he knows the core elements of our squad because of pre-game scouting as Everton boss and general football-watching, you know, but getting to know them as 'employees' (i.e. their position in the squad, their relations to one another, their capacity to train very hard or not, their ability to play certain games in a row and so on) is a different thing altogether. I really don't want to draw too many conclusions at the moment, by Christmas we'll have a better idea of how well he's doing, and even then it will only be slightly indicative of what's to come.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

This is very subjective though. If we continue to play the brand of football we were playing in Ferguson's last years but with much worse results (outside top four), then Moyes has to walk.

Well it won't "take much" worse results for us to finish outside the top four, assuming the other clubs fulfil their obvious potential for the season ahead. As for improving on the style of football preferred by Fergie, are you really giving the new manager just one season to do this?

 

[Revan]

Well that's where you and SAF (and by extension, presumably, the owners) disagree. They're clearly trying to recreate what helped Fergie's turn the club into a dominant force. Consistency of approach. I suggest you revise that opinion or face a lot of upset in the years ahead.

That's good as long as manager is good. If Moyes fails and we find a good manager who is loyal (cough cough, Klopp) then wonderful. But just hiring someone for the sake that he's loyal doesn't sound very smart to me. Could be wrong, I know, but also I could be right. There aren't many cases of loyal succesful managers, we had the luck of having two of them, doesn't mean that we have now the third one (or we'll have it in the foreseeable future)

 

[Siorac]

Not sure if you read this post and ignored it, or haven't read it yet. It highlights the obvious reasons why it will take more than simply being "competent" to secure a top four slot this season.

I read it, I just don't think that all that is a reasonable excuse for us to lower our standards drastically. We won the title last season, I see no reason why we should suddenly accept mediocrity.

If you don't rate our players, fine. It's contrary to your usual position but okay. I do think that we still have a clearly better squad than either Arsenal or Spurs and it's not inferior to Chelsea's. If we can't finish ahead of either of these three then Moyes will have done a disastrous, horrible job. EDIT: Unless of course the shit really hits the fan, like both Rooney and Van Persie get injured for 9 months or something like that.

I do have faith in Moyes delivering; apparently you don't.

 

[pocco]

That's good as long as manager is good. If Moyes fails and we find a good manager who is loyal (cough cough, Klopp) then wonderful. But just hiring someone for the sake that he's loyal doesn't sound very smart to me. Could be wrong, I know, but also I could be right. There aren't many cases of loyal succesful managers, we had the luck of having two of them, doesn't mean that we have now the third one (or we'll have it in the foreseeable future)

Are you, some guy off the internet, the judge of who is a good manager? I think I'll trust Fergie on this one.

 

[Woodzy]

I read it, I just don't think that all that is a reasonable excuse for us to lower our standards drastically. We won the title last season, I see no reason why we should suddenly accept mediocrity.

If you don't rate our players, fine. It's contrary to your usual position but okay. I do think that we still have a clearly better squad than either Arsenal or Spurs and it's not inferior to Chelsea's. If we can't finish ahead of either of these three then Moyes will have done a disastrous, horrible job. EDIT: Unless of course the shit really hits the fan, like both Rooney and Van Persie get injured for 9 months or something like that.

I do have faith in Moyes delivering; apparently you don't.

I agree with this. Put it this way, falling outside the top 4 would mean finishing behind either Spurs or Liverpool at their current level. In my opinion, that is not acceptable, as we have a much better squad.

 

[Revan]

Are you, some guy off the internet, the judge of who is a good manager? I think I'll trust Fergie on this one.

You know, thinking for yourself is sometimes allowable.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

I agree with this. Put it this way, falling outside the top 4 would mean finishing behind either Spurs or Liverpool at their current level. In my opinion, that is not acceptable, as we have a much better squad.

We have apparently got a better manager as well as when I suggested AVB was better than Moyes, it got laughed off by a few. I hadn't even thought about Rodgers! If we finish outside the top 4 then one of them has done a better job.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I read it, I just don't think that all that is a reasonable excuse for us to lower our standards drastically. We won the title last season, I see no reason why we should suddenly accept mediocrity.

If you don't rate our players, fine. It's contrary to your usual position but okay. I do think that we still have a clearly better squad than either Arsenal or Spurs and it's not inferior to Chelsea's. If we can't finish ahead of either of these three then Moyes will have done a disastrous, horrible job. EDIT: Unless of course the shit really hits the fan, like both Rooney and Van Persie get injured for 9 months or something like that.

I do have faith in Moyes delivering; apparently you don't.

You sure you read that post? I find it bizarre that someone can be aware of the obvious, significant improvements in Spurs and Arsenal then decide that not finishing ahead of them represents "mediocrity"

If you really have faith in Moyes delivering I'll take your word for it. Bit fecking odd you'll be calling for the head of a manager you think is the right man to replace Fergie after one bad season but each to his own.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

We have apparently got a better manager as well as when I suggested AVB was better than Moyes, it got laughed off by a few. I hadn't even thought about Rodgers! If we finish outside the top 4 then one of them has done a better job.

Neither of them are in their first season with a new club. Which is huge. How can this not be obvious to you?

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Some people are so thick they're beyond reason. I doubt anybody will throw their toys out of the pram if we don't win anything this season but finish in top 3. If we finish in fourth, Moyes should and will be given more time to try and get us back fighting for trophies. If you drop from first to outside top four without any major changes in the squad, then questions need to be asked. Anyhow, we are all arguing over hypotheticals because I do believe we will finish top three.

I believe so too. But this could be a very rough season - and it could be a very odd season too, compared to what we've been used to. And the latter has nothing to do with Moyes as such: New management at Chelsea and City, Spurs and Arsenal stronger, us without Fergie (a fact that would've had a tremendous impact regardless of who his successor had been). It could be a bit flukey, actually, at the end of the day whether you end up 1st or 4th, 3rd or...5th.

The assumption that 4th is a minimum, given the strength of our squad, is based on the major premise that our squad is actually as strong as some would have it. And further on the premise that Moyes can handle this squad well enough. The latter is not a given - and by that I don't mean that Moyes is possibly out of his depth: We had two immense things going for us in the league in latter seasons: A squad with excellent depth and a manager who was a master of rotation - who played the squad game better than anyone in history. We cannot expect Moyes to pick up this skill in a matter of months, not even if Fergie gives him daily lessons. In all likelihood Moyes will be far more dependent on getting a strong XI to gel - and that's where the question of pure, individual quality comes in.

I think he will end up with a strong XI - one strong enough to ensure that we do not fall short of 4th. But to claim that falling short is completely unacceptable - well, to me it ain't that simple. He faces a real challenge in that respect. Any manager would - there are factors present this season that simply weren't there under Fergie. We can't ignore this - that isn't fair to Moyes.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Neither of them are in their first season with a new club. Which is huge. How can this not be obvious to you?

Both had to take over squads in far worse situation than ours. It's not as if they have been in the job for that long either.

The teams aren't all on an even keel to start off with. Expectations start off differently at different clubs, that's fairly obvious.

 

[Shark]

You sure you read that post? I find it bizarre that someone can be aware of the obvious, significant improvements in Spurs and Arsenal then decide that not finishing ahead of them represents "mediocrity"

If you really have faith in Moyes delivering I'll take your word for it. Bit fecking odd you'll be calling for the head of a manager you think is the right man to replace Fergie after one bad season but each to his own.

I think it's fair that some people have a different view on what a 'bad season' for this club would be.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Both had to take over squads in far worse situation than ours. It's not as if they have been in the job for that long either.

The teams aren't all on an even keel to start off with. Expectations start off differently at different clubs, that's fairly obvious.

I'm not sure what point you're making here tbh. Are expectations different at these three clubs? Well, yes. Are all three clubs hoping for a top four finish? Yes to that too.

Whatever, managerial continuity makes a huge difference and both Liverpool and Spurs were on an upward trajectory coming into this season, under their current managers. In contrast, we have to deal with all the instability and uncertainty that comes with a new manager. Which will cost us points. Is it really a massive coincidence that all three of last season's top 3 clubs have fallen off the pace already compared to Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal?

That's not even allowing for AvB having a massive windfall to invest in his club. I think Liverpool are flattering to deceive and finishing behind them would be a disaster but you'd have to be very naive (or deliberately disingenuous) to try and pretend that Spurs haven't a great chance of a top four finish this season. The best I can remember.

 

[pocco]

You know, thinking for yourself is sometimes allowable.

Will you explain to me then why SAF picked a bad manager to replace him? Just doing his mate a favour? Wants us to fail?

 

[Bestie07]

I believe so too. But this could be a very rough season - and it could be a very odd season too, compared to what we've been used to. And the latter has nothing to do with Moyes as such: New management at Chelsea and City, Spurs and Arsenal stronger, us without Fergie (a fact that would've had a tremendous impact regardless of who his successor had been). It could be a bit flukey, actually, at the end of the day whether you end up 1st or 4th, 3rd or...5th.

The assumption that 4th is a minimum, given the strength of our squad, is based on the major premise that our squad is actually as strong as some would have it. And further on the premise that Moyes can handle this squad well enough. The latter is not a given - and by that I don't mean that Moyes is possibly out of his depth: We had two immense things going for us in the league in latter seasons: A squad with excellent depth and a manager who was a master of rotation - who played the squad game better than anyone in history. We cannot expect Moyes to pick up this skill in a matter of months, not even if Fergie gives him daily lessons. In all likelihood Moyes will be far more dependent on getting a strong XI to gel - and that's where the question of pure, individual quality comes in.

I think he will end up with a strong XI - one strong enough to ensure that we do not fall short of 4th. But to claim that falling short is completely unacceptable - well, to me it ain't that simple. He faces a real challenge in that respect. Any manager would - there are factors present this season that simply weren't there under Fergie. We can't ignore this - that isn't fair to Moyes.

Fair enough. I didn't say that falling short of top four was completely unacceptable, I said that questions would need to be asked though about the direction that the club is heading, which again is very subjective. We are the third biggest club in the world after all, we have to set some minimum standards for ourselves.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

I'm not sure what point you're making here tbh. Are expectations different at these three clubs? Well, yes. Are all three clubs hoping for a top four finish? Yes to that too.

Whatever, managerial continuity makes a huge difference and both Liverpool and Spurs were on an upward trajectory coming into this season, under their current managers. That's not even allowing for AvB having a massive windfall to invest in his club. I think Liverpool are flattering to deceive and finishing behind them would be a disaster but you'd have to be very naive (or deliberately disingenuous) to try and pretend that Spurs haven't a great chance of a top four finish this season. The best I can remember.

I suppose the point I'm making is AVB and Rodgers developed their team. We were bound to regress under Moyes but really we shouldn't be regressing to the point where we fall behind Spurs or Liverpool. Both were miles behind us back just in May.

 

[Siorac]

You sure you read that post? I find it bizarre that someone can be aware of the obvious, significant improvements in Spurs and Arsenal then decide that not finishing ahead of them represents "mediocrity"

If you really have faith in Moyes delivering I'll take your word for it. Bit fecking odd you'll be calling for the head of a manager you think is the right man to replace Fergie after one bad season but each to his own.

We still have a better squad than Arsenal or Spurs and it's not inferior to Chelsea's squad either. How hard is that to understand? Finishing behind all three of them would be a worse than mediocre season, it would be a disastrous one.

I'm not sure why you seem to have zero faith in Moyes, considering Fergie picked him for the job. It's a bit odd that you don't consider him good enough to finish in the top four with a title-winning squad plus a player he's known for five years and paid 27.5m for him. You're already preparing for failure, as if it were almost inevitable. It's really not. We do have some rather good players you know, they won a few things.

 

[Siorac]

Neither of them are in their first season with a new club. Which is huge. How can this not be obvious to you?

AVB achieved a points record in his first season with a new club, building on the good work of a previous manager. It's not impossible to do well at a new club! Just look at Everton and Moyes.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Fair enough. I didn't say that falling short of top four was completely unacceptable, I said that questions would need to be asked though about the direction that the club is heading, which again is very subjective. We are the third biggest club in the world after all, we have to set some minimum standards for ourselves.

Absolutely - they must be asked: We're at a crossroads here - the board and everyone who matters at the club must stay sharp as feck at all times. Moyes should put up a huge portrait of King Kenny - in a t-shirt - in his office as a constant memento: Look at my works, ye mighty - and despair!

But - and this is the point: If we accept that this season will be a bit sketchy - trial and error, what have you, then the possibility of certain teams challenging the usual suspects, upsetting the balance...well, this must be taken into consideration. Sketchy may mean 5th - it's not inconceivable and it shouldn't mean an automatic exit for Moyes, which many have suggested.

 

[Heardy]

I agree that Moyes should be given sufficient time to get to know the team, and work out where he can direct us.

Finishing outside of the CL aside (even top 6 he will likely be given another year), I can't see him being sacked within a year. But imperative to that is whether he keeps control of the dressing room. I don't think we have too many prima donna's in our side that would want to "jump ship" (Rooney aside), but they have a history of winning and they won't like losing and if they (collectively) start to question Moyes, it'll only really go one way.

 

[finneh]

Dunno if anyone listens to the second captains podcast but Richie Sadler made a really interesting point about whichever manager takes over from Fergie. He reckons that a big reason Fergie always got teams to punch above their weight was because his place as manager of the club was assured as long as he wanted it. There could never be any doubt that he would be there next season, or the season after that. This meant that if we went through a dodgy spell the players had nobody to blame but themselves. They couldn't cop out by putting the blame on the manager, assuming he wasn't up to the job or incapable of steering them to the trophies they wanted. If they wanted to have successful careers the onus was 100% on them to up their fecking game and drag themselves out of this slump. If they could do that, history had proven that Fergie was the man to get them right up there at the end of the season.

United was almost unique in this regard. At very other club you had managerial churn and you would regularly hear reports about X "losing the dressing room", meaning players had decided their season was fecked and it wasn't their fault. This would be a particular problem when dealing with players with high opinions of themselves. Players who've already won a load of medals. Sound familiar?

I've no idea if Moyes is up to the job of replacing Fergie but am going to give him a fair crack of the whip on the basis that Fergie picked him for the job. I don't think people appreciate just how difficult his job is, though, and I find it interesting that people remain so convinced that falling out of the top four is inconceivable and that our squad is so good that we should continue being no less succesful than we've been in recent years under Fergie. I reckon they're in for a very rude awakening and it could well be a case of years, rather than months, of under-achievement before United start to dominate again. In fact, there's every chance none of us will see a repeat of our recent period of sustained success again in our lifetime.

I have to admit I always thought we needed a manager with a huge pedigree to replace Fergie... A winning pedigree. The reason for this was simple: if a manager like Moyes has a run of bad results it would be natural for players (particularly senior ones) to start questioning the tactics, selections and general managing of the club. Thoughts will creep in that the manager is out of his depth, has never done it at the highest level and has actually never really been successful.

This is why I thought it was imperative that he got off to a strong start. Obviously this hasn't happened and I feel he needs to turn it around quickly, because as soon as the player's stop believing in the manager or doubting his abilities it's game over. Whereas a Mourinho in times of difficulty can point to past successes to "prove" that it is in fact the player's who need to shape up and that he is the right man for the job; Moyes will have nowhere to hide.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I have to admit I always thought we needed a manager with a huge pedigree to replace Fergie... A winning pedigree. The reason for this was simple: if a manager like Moyes has a run of bad results it would be natural for players (particularly senior ones) to start questioning the tactics, selections and general managing of the club. Thoughts will creep in that the manager is out of his depth, has never done it at the highest level and has actually never really been successful.

This is why I thought it was imperative that he got off to a strong start. Obviously this hasn't happened and I feel he needs to turn it around quickly, because as soon as the player's stop believing in the manager or doubting his abilities it's game over. Whereas a Mourinho in times of difficulty can point to past successes to "prove" that it is in fact the player's who need to shape up and that he is the right man for the job; Moyes will have nowhere to hide.

I'm not dismissing your point in general - but Mourinho in times of difficulty is not necessarily a figure I'd like to have in charge at Old Trafford.

 

[Rood]

I suppose the point I'm making is AVB and Rodgers developed their team. We were bound to regress under Moyes but really we shouldn't be regressing to the point where we fall behind Spurs or Liverpool. Both were miles behind us back just in May.

Indeed - as I said earlier, 4th should be the minimum expectation. It only really seems to be Pogue strongly arguing otherwise as far as I can see.

I completely agree with you, I think Fergie was a genius at managing the squad and that Moyes so far is struggling with that aspect. What's worse, to be honest, is that I think he's trying to replicate Fergie's pattern but not quite managing it. Though I'm not panicking, I recognize that it's probably one of the hardest things to master and will come with time. I doubt he was confronted with this type of problem when at Everton.

Also, a lot of people are criticizing his 'I'm getting to know some players better', I'm pretty sure he doesn't mean he's going to walk up to Kagawa and say 'hiya lad so what's your position? Fullback?', I'm sure he knows the core elements of our squad because of pre-game scouting as Everton boss and general football-watching, you know, but getting to know them as 'employees' (i.e. their position in the squad, their relations to one another, their capacity to train very hard or not, their ability to play certain games in a row and so on) is a different thing altogether. I really don't want to draw too many conclusions at the moment, by Christmas we'll have a better idea of how well he's doing, and even then it will only be slightly indicative of what's to come.

Yes I agree with all that.

Moyes had a small squad at Everton so barely had many choices to make on a weekly basis, the size of our squad and huge range of options is probably the biggest challenge for him. Like you say, Fergie was the master of finding the right balance between rotation and consistency.

Clearly Moyes is still assessing a lot of the players and wants to give everyone a chance to prove themselves, which is fair enough in theory but in practice it is hindering us in the league already so he needs to start working out what his best team is pretty quickly.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I suppose the point I'm making is AVB and Rodgers developed their team. We were bound to regress under Moyes but really we shouldn't be regressing to the point where we fall behind Spurs or Liverpool. Both were miles behind us back just in May.

I maintain we'll finish ahead of Liverpool. I also think we'll finish ahead of Spurs. £100m pumped into the squad and the beneficial effect of managerial stability will close last season's gap a lot though. Look how much the last clubs to spend that kind of money improved in a single season. I don't buy this absolute certainty that we'll finish ahead of them with a significantly worse manager than Fergie in charge and minimal spending (so far)

 

[MikeUpNorth]

I maintain we'll finish ahead of Liverpool. I also think we'll finish ahead of Spurs. £100m pumped into the squad and the beneficial effect of managerial stability will close last season's gap a lot though. I don't buy this absolute certainty that we'll finish ahead of them with a significantly worse manager than Fergie in charge and minimal spending (so far)

Spurs also lost their best player and are having to bed in a whole new team. You're making it out like they're a lock to be better than last season!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'd be astonished if they didn't.

 

[Sassy Colin]

Panic over guys, Hansen is writing us off & comparing us to the demise of Scousepool in the early 90s, so we'll be fine. normal service will be resumed shortly:

http://www.givemesport.com/385704-manchester-united-face-demise-like-liverpool?autoplay=on

 

[Bestie07]

Absolutely - they must be asked: We're at a crossroads here - the board and everyone who matters at the club must stay sharp as feck at all times. Moyes should put up a huge portrait of King Kenny - in a t-shirt - in his office as a constant memento: Look at my works, ye mighty - and despair!

But - and this is the point: If we accept that this season will be a bit sketchy - trial and error, what have you, then the possibility of certain teams challenging the usual suspects, upsetting the balance...well, this must be taken into consideration. Sketchy may mean 5th - it's not inconceivable and it shouldn't mean an automatic exit for Moyes, which many have suggested.

We haven't been sharp so far, from the board to everyone who matters at the club, including the players and Moyes. I think pretty much everyone has already accepted that this season will be different, but how different? Consider this, our biggest pull as a club was Ferguson and the guarantee of trophies. One is gone, and with it the other. Even then we were hardly the preferred destination of top players. We don't pay as much as sugar daddy clubs or Real/Barca, we aren't as well supported in England as Bayern are in Germany, neither are we located in the most glamorous of cities. The likes of Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal and City have the resources to sustain their success if they get ahead of us into the top four. Falling outside of top four may start a downward spiral, and that is my biggest worry. Where will we draw the line?

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Panic over guys, Hansen is writing us off & comparing us to the demise of Scousepool in the early 90s, so we'll be fine. normal service will be resumed shortly:

http://www.givemesport.com/385704-manchester-united-face-demise-like-liverpool?autoplay=on

That would be the worst case scenario and why Top 4 has to be a minimum for us. While Arsenal have vastly improved, Liverpool and Spurs haven't done enough to ahead of us. It would take some really bad management on Moyes' part to finish behind them with this squad.

 

[SteveJ]

Panic over guys, Hansen is writing us off & comparing us to the demise of Scousepool in the early 90s, so we'll be fine. normal service will be resumed shortly:

http://www.givemesport.com/385704-manchester-united-face-demise-like-liverpool?autoplay=on

"It is too early to say we are now witnessing the end of the empire at Old Trafford," said Hansen, "But it's fecking great, isn't it? Wahey!"

The bastid...

 

[jeff_goldblum]

Spurs also lost their best player and are having to bed in a whole new team. You're making it out like they're a lock to be better than last season!

I think Spurs will probably be better than last season. It's an obvious thing to say but they were far too reliant on Bale last season, they've reinvested in such a way that they'll score more 'system' goals rather than being reliant of flashes of brilliance to win games, as obviously those goals are very form dependent.

That's also something I hope Moyes will do for us. Last season we had RvP in top form in the first half of the seson and we were lucky that his drought corresponded with Rooney finding form in the second half of the season. Obviously I love to see the likes of RvP and Rooney creating something out of nothing and scoring fantastic goals but I'd also like to see United scoring more goals from rehearsed routines (overlaps, cutbacks to players arriving late into the box etc.) as those goals don't dry up when a star player isn't in form. When Moyes is properly settled I'm expecting to see a lot of team goals and interplay like we've seen from Moyes' Everton, combined with the stunners that come when you have top players.

 

[Kingcon]

Fergies was a brilliant man manager, a few choice words at the right time like just after we lost the league to City spurred the team on. Moyes from what he has said in public has been to knock the team at every opportunity it seems.

Does Moyes tone sound as if he wants to distance himself from the team as he feels its not his unlike the Everton team he built?

I really don't know what his motivation is for being so public about his judgement of the players. Obviously most everything we've done since SAF/Gill have left has been more public than we are accustomed to. Is this right? Will it pan out positively? Who knows but for me it isn't the management style I prefer from our boss.

Do you seriously believe that this side can win the CL? I tend to be pretty creative myself however I cant see how the likes of Young, the former Everton beanpole and the 1 trick pony on the right can take on Messi, Iniesta and co.

Flukes do happen but bloody hell its evident that we lack quality to seriously compete for the CL.

Win the CL, no way. Compete and make it 16/8, yes. David has the right to address the squad in anyway he seems fit, publicly or privately. I prefer the latter as it's how we used to do business but times seem to have changed.

I just don't agree that he has the right to claim this squad needs more star players to win a competition he's only coached one game in.

I'm not calling for his head, this is a long term transition but he isn't making it any easier upon himself.