Moyes So Far!

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Cheesy said:
Yeah, they are luck dependent. He happened to get luck in his own favour though back in 2009 when we were awful in that penalty shoot-out against them, for example. Again, I'm not saying he should have been walking every domestic trophy, but it's telling that he never won one.

As much as Wenger's a top manager, if there's been one major criticism of the man in recent years it's that he's lacked that winning mentality and his side have often bottled it, resulting in them failing to win anything.
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I disagree, it is not telling at all.

During Moyes's tenure at Everton;

SAF won 4 domestic trophies
Mourinho won 3
Wenger won 2.
Benitez won 1

Domestic trophies are hugely dependent on squad size, rotation, and a massive dollop of luck. SAF- a man in charge of the biggest club in English football, in 22 opportunities(during Moyes's tenure), won 4 times, that shows just how difficult and random cup comps are even for the biggest teams, never mind Everton!
 
KiD MoYeS said:
Moyes' 'winning mentality' at Everton is still not transferable to what would be considered a 'winning mentality' at Manchester United.
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I agree it's a completely different animal, if you look at Pogues post and what we have seen from Moyes past and present he's perfectly used to playing from the position of underdog, regularly snatching points from those above and plodding points off those around and below.

How we define this winning mentality we speak of I have no idea, but in Moyes I have yet to see even the smallest spark of that force of will that we became so used under Ferguson.

One thing I will say is that we're now into a last 16 of Europe as the worst of the best, it might just suit him.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
He absolutely faces new challenges stepping up to manage a club like United. Wasn't that always obvious though? Same would apply to any other manager getting his first gig at a big club like this. He has to learn on the job. Not ideal but inevitable once we made the decision not to go with a more established manager..
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Difference is it almost appears as though Moyes had to re-learn football. Which is taking it a step too far.
 
Not sure about a lack of winning mentality is the issue. For me the biggest unknown about Moyes, when he was given the job was his ability to deal with the higher level of pressure that came with greater expectations for United compared to Everton. Moyes was under relatively less pressure to win at Everton than at United, but that doesn't mean he didn't have a winner's mentality.

Obviously it's a different story at United-the pressure and expectations are much greater. In a sense Fergie was able to grow with the job-United was not a global brand in 1986-and so was able to adapt over time while in the job as United's global presence increased. Moyes made the leap in one year.

For me the biggest question is whether or not he will get better at operating under the relentless pressure any United manager faces. I'm not sure anybody knows for sure-and that includes Fergie and the board.

So-my take is that keeping Moyes is a gamble-as was hiring him in the first place. As it seems like he'll be here through the start of next season-I'm just resigned to waiting and seeing.
 
Lu Tze said:
I disagree, it is not telling at all.

During Moyes's tenure at Everton;

SAF won 4 domestic trophies
Mourinho won 3
Wenger won 2.
Benitez won 1

Domestic trophies are hugely dependent on squad size, rotation, and a massive dollop of luck. SAF- a man in charge of the biggest club in English football, in 22 opportunities, won 4 times, that shows just how difficult and random cup comps are even for the biggest teams, never mind Everton!
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Yeah, but that was while balancing Champions League in many cases. Many of these sides didn't care about the FA Cup. Not that it was Everton's priority either admittedly, but you'd expect more focus on it from them than the sides you mentioned who were in the CL more often. But ultimately, these managers won the trophies. Whether it was 1, 2, 3 or 4, they won them. Moyes never did. I get your point and it's not exactly the decisive factor to say he lacks that winning mentality or anything, but it does have some logic behind it.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Fergie won 20 league titles by winning games against "those from around or below".
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Sometimes. There were, however, season when winning the big games made the difference. Last season it was a mixture of both - wins at City, Chelsea and Liverpool were important in creating what was a very large gap.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Fergie won 20 league titles by winning games against "those from around or below".
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But he won plenty of the big games too in the league, including two CL finals and games leading up those, did he not?
 
The same issue remains for me, Moyes never established success through attractive football, but rather a more cautious approach. I think Moyes could probably grow into the role of Manchester United manager as far as winning mentality goes, he has certainly targeted the level of talent required to bring success. But can he formulate an imaginative and attacking brand of football, I'm not so sure he can on his own. But we shall see.
 
Sorry about that guys, i worded my initial response to @Lu Tze poorly. What i was trying to get at is Moyes has been associated as a manager who is happy to work within his limits but when the demands seem to go beyond those limits, he more or less falters. Being at Manchester United, he's going to or has already learnt that you need to move beyond this mindset. I dont think the hierarchy will settle for 3-5 trophyless seasons but who knows. Part of what I'm trying to get at is there are managers who can get wins out of their teams but there are other managers who can not only get their teams to win but can also make decisions to greater enhance the team's chances of winning in a way which other managers struggle to do.

Fergie was a born winner imo and relentless in his pursuit of success. That didnt mean his teams always won or even won the majority of their games. Because as history shows, there are more factors at play other than having a winner's mentality which need to be in play to lead to success. Is this something Moyes can learn on the job? The 'winning mentality' that is suited for a club like Manchester United?

once again i apologise for my poorly worded responses.
 
Cheesy said:
But he won plenty of the big games too in the league, including two CL finals and games leading up those, did he not?
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Of course. Comparing the CVs of the two managers would be daft. Just pointing out that a manager of Manchester United doesn't need to regularly beat clubs that are bigger and better than his own. Which is what Moyes is getting retrospectively criticised for failing to do during his time at Everton.
 
One thing is pretty clear and it looks pretty much agreed is that Moyes is serving an apprenticeship here, which is sort of fine as any manager coming in would have to learn how to manage this club after SAF has controlled it top to bottom for 26 years. My concern is Moyes learning curve has been nothing short of flat to downward.
 
Cheesy said:
Yeah, but that was while balancing Champions League in many cases. Many of these sides didn't care about the FA Cup. Not that it was Everton's priority either admittedly, but you'd expect more focus on it from them than the sides you mentioned who were in the CL more often. But ultimately, these managers won the trophies. Whether it was 1, 2, 3 or 4, they won them. Moyes never did. I get your point and it's not exactly the decisive factor to say he lacks that winning mentality or anything, but it does have some logic behind it.
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yes in fairness cup competitions are difficult to win as we have seen. martinez was able to get his side to beat city in a cup final while moyes wasnt. doesnt mean moyes inherently does not have a winning mentality but begs the question of approach in these games.
 
Lu Tze said:
I disagree, it is not telling at all.

During Moyes's tenure at Everton;

SAF won 4 domestic trophies
Mourinho won 3
Wenger won 2.
Benitez won 1

Domestic trophies are hugely dependent on squad size, rotation, and a massive dollop of luck. SAF- a man in charge of the biggest club in English football, in 22 opportunities(during Moyes's tenure), won 4 times, that shows just how difficult and random cup comps are even for the biggest teams, never mind Everton!
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what are these domestic trophies? i have more than 4.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yep. It's definitely looked that way. I'm absolutely convinced that many of the reasons behind this were out of his control though. Not all. Don't get me wrong. But a lot of them.
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What are those, apart from the possible belief the players struggled to accept Fergie's departure?
 
Lu Tze said:
1 FA cup(04) 3 League cups. (06/09/10). Not counting community shield because they're bollocks.
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Moyes1_2553951b.jpg

I cannae catch a wee break.
 
Gladiator said:
oh okay thanks. by the way, you know sir alex won title with st.mirren?
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No, he won the Scottish First Division, the second tier of Scottish football, behind the Scottish Premier Division. He was also fired for breach of contract.
 
Amir said:
What are those, apart from the possible belief the players struggled to accept Fergie's departure?
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I'd say probable belief - rather than possible - but the other big ones would be the chickens coming home to roost regarding flaws in the squad, the cack-handed summer transfer window (for which Moyes can't bear all the blame) poorly timed injuries to players we relied upon heavily last season and bad luck with the fixture computer.

All the stuff that's been discussed ad nauseum on here all season long.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I'd say probable belief - rather than possible - but the other big ones would be the chickens coming home to roost regarding flaws in the squad, the cack-handed summer transfer window (for which Moyes can't bear all the blame) poorly timed injuries to players we relied upon heavily last season and bad luck with the fixture computer.

All the stuff that's been discussed ad nauseum on here all season long.
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In real danger of sounding like an Arsenal fan here :lol:

I do agree he's had some shit luck along the way, he must have ran over a black cat on his first drive in or something. He's also been god awful at times with some of his decisions or should I say some of his non decisions.
 
I don't think some appreciate Fergies ability to get something out of this team in the last few seasons.

He knew the team inside out and figured the one way to make this team effective. Moyes mistakes have been trying to carry that blueprint on when it was past its shelf life, where he gets some sympathy is this team was declining inflexible and needed new men as well as new ideas.

I didn't want him and still think there's plenty more qualified for the job but if he's sacked id argue he was hard done by
 
Smores said:
I don't think some appreciate Fergies ability to get something out of this team in the last few seasons.

He knew the team inside out and figured the one way to make this team effective. Moyes mistakes have been trying to carry that blueprint on when it was past its shelf life, where he gets some sympathy is this team was declining inflexible and needed new men as well as new ideas.

I didn't want him and still think there's plenty more qualified for the job but if he's sacked id argue he was hard done by
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I cannot fathom this. We're coming 7th. We might finish 6th if we do well in our last matches. We're nowhere near 4th spot - the minimum we expected out of this season. If he should get fired at the end of this season, it's entirely deserved based on the results. If he stays on, he's been given the biggest of second chances.
 
Lu Tze said:
When a team of Everton's stature is established as a perennial top 8 team, that clearly requires getting a lot of wins. Moyes at Everton won 42% of his games. SAF at St. Mirren won 43%. Klopp at Mainz won 40%. Heynckes at Athletic - 41%. Did those managers not have winning mentalities at that point in their careers?

More examples:

Pocchetino at Espanyol:32%.
Pellegrini at Malaga:41%
Trappatoni at Bayern: 36%
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Well if it was so impressive why did it take him 10 years to get a big move?
 
Mainoldo said:
Well if it was so impressive why did it take him 10 years to get a big move?
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Where were the job openings? Liverpool? Can't go there. Chelsea; Want instant success, not high profile enough. Arsenal: Not moving Arsene. United: Not moving SAF.
 
I think anyone who's watched us in the last 2-3 seasons appreciates what the Fergie factor was all about.

The criticisms I have of Moyes were his ability to lose the players early on, "we need 5 World class players" true but ffs David earn their trust at
Lu Tze said:
When a team of Everton's stature is established as a perennial top 8 team, that clearly requires getting a lot of wins. Moyes at Everton won 42% of his games. SAF at St. Mirren won 43%. Klopp at Mainz won 40%. Heynckes at Athletic - 41%. Did those managers not have winning mentalities at that point in their careers?

More examples:

Pocchetino at Espanyol:32%.
Pellegrini at Malaga:41%
Trappatoni at Bayern: 36%
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Fergusons time at Aberdeen was probably more comparable where he won 59.3% of his games.
He took that record with him to United with 59.5% ratio! these stats can be turned around and help Moyes none.
 
The problem I have with those statistics is that they only mean anything once you bring in the context of what they achieved elsewhere.
 
gasmanc said:
I think anyone who's watched us in the last 2-3 seasons appreciates what the Fergie factor was all about.

The criticisms I have of Moyes were his ability to lose the players early on, "we need 5 World class players" true but ffs David earn their trust at


Fergusons time at Aberdeen was probably more comparable where he won 59.3% of his games.
He took that record with him to United with 59.5% ratio! these stats can be turned around and help Moyes none.
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And Moyes's ratio at United is what....? 55%. If he can turn some of his losses into draws, and eke out a couple more wins on a season by season basis, he'd be matching the GOAT in win %.
 
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Lu Tze said:
Where were the job openings? Liverpool? Can't go there. Chelsea; Want instant success, not high profile enough. Arsenal: Not moving Arsene. United: Not moving SAF.
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Spurs had numerous vacancies and City was up for grabs at one time too. Chelsea hired big Phil, Grant and AVB (Ancolotti I'll leave out). If he had any wits about him why could t he do better than all those other names?
 
Mainoldo said:
Spurs had numerous vacancies and City was up for grabs at one time too. Chelsea hired big Phil, Grant and AVB (Ancolotti I'll leave out). If he had any wits about him why could t he do better than all those other names?
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Spurs weren't in a significantly better position than Everton for most of his tenure. City wanted a continental manager. Chelsea: Big Phil; WC winning manager. Grant: Previous ties to Chelsea. AVB: Supposed heir to Mourinho.
 
Lu Tze said:
And Moyes's ratio at United is what....? 55%. If he can turn some of his losses into draws, and eke out a couple more wins on a season by season basis, he'd be matching the GOAT.
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Not sure if serious.
 
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