Moyes So Far!

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Lu Tze said:
This isn't true. Rogers initially came in with a more possession oriented game plan, the like of which he'd played at Swansea. He has moved away from that significantly towards hyper-fast attacking play when it wasn't working for him.
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He has altered it from the original blueprint. But there was a visible vision being implemented from pretty early on, which is what was encouraging (for Liverpool fans). In fact, switching it to a different iteration this season is even more impressive IMO.

Damn it's a bit depressing how good that fella is doing.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
He has altered it from the original blueprint. But there was a visible vision being implemented from pretty early on, which is what was encouraging (for Liverpool fans). In fact, switching it to a different iteration this season is even more impressive IMO.

Damn it's a bit depressing how good that fella is doing.
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Its awful. I couldn't bare it when they beat us 0-3. I felt physically repulsed by it.
 
#07 said:
Its awful. I couldn't bare it when they beat us 0-3. I felt physically repulsed by it.
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Hopefully madrid go for Suarez and it all falls apart. Have to say their foundations seem to be strong. I mean even Henderson is looking great.

Right, enough derailment.
 
Lu Tze said:
This isn't true. Rogers initially came in with a more possession oriented game plan, the like of which he'd played at Swansea. He has moved away from that significantly towards hyper-fast attacking play when it wasn't working for him.
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So we're saying Liverpool don't play possession play right now? I think you're right they've incorporated a lot of speed and directness to their attacking play no question but his basic principles of possession, ball on the floor, playing out from the back etc is still there.

#07 said:
At this point I'm willing to believe in any positive sign. Desperation has deprived me of rationality. My head tells me we are on our way down, my heart tells me its a minor blip and we will go unbeaten until May.
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Fair play mate :D

amolbhatia100 said:
Of course Rodgers has done an incredible job and our players simply getting a few results and confidence isn't going to match that amount of improvement they've made. But that's what I'd like to see from Moyes, fresh ideas that are his own, and he ability to elevate players, like Rodgers is showing. I don't rate him enough to think he can do it. However, gaining confidence is always good for a team. It makes it easier to implement ideas and plans.

Also, Moyes does have a far far better platform than Rodgers did. Although I don't think he has as strong a vision.
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The thing with Ideas is it seems hes fighting an internal battle, from what we've heard from Giggs at least, that it seems some of our playing staff want to go back to fast wingplay with the likes of Valencia and Welbeck on the wings akin what we did under Sir Alex, when 90% of our good results under Moyes has had us using Kagawa or a Mata out wide and coming in, I pray to god Moyes sticks with whats worked for him and ignores this image of "United 442 with wingers!!!11one" being forced upon him along with any other ideas he wants to get out of this side.
 
TheNewEra said:
I think winning ugly would be a good sign, shows the team has grit and determination.
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At this point I'll take anything better than what we saw against Liverpool. Talk about lowering standards-yeech.

I think it will be interesting to see how we all think about the season after it ends-when we don't have a weekly crap sandwich to watch. My guess is that opinion about Moyes may soften-become less critical as we sign players and get hopeful for next year.
 
BennyBlanco said:
The thing with Ideas is it seems hes fighting an internal battle, from what we've heard from Giggs at least, that it seems some of our playing staff want to go back to fast wingplay with the likes of Valencia and Welbeck on the wings akin what we did under Sir Alex, when 90% of our good results under Moyes has had us using Kagawa or a Mata out wide and coming in, I pray to god Moyes sticks with whats worked for him and ignores this image of "United 442 with wingers!!!11one" being forced upon him along with any other ideas he wants to get out of this side.
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He apparently went against fergie's advise and replaced the coaching staff so I don't think he's being held at gun point with respect to his tactics.
 
I wouldn't read too much into pool's two wins over us this season.

Sturridge got a freak bounce-off-the-back for the 1-0 win. They had the better possession but not by much.

The recent win was more humbling but two of their goals came off pk's that didn't need to happen and did not involve clear goal scoring opportunities. Suarez got a fair goal and pool deserved to win the game, but it really wasn't the thrashing that the final score suggests it might have been.
 
Gannicus said:
I wouldn't read too much into pool's two wins over us this season.

Sturridge got a freak bounce-off-the-back for the 1-0 win. They had the better possession but not by much.

The recent win was more humbling but two of their goals came off pk's that didn't need to happen and did not involve clear goal scoring opportunities. Suarez got a fair goal and pool deserved to win the game, but it really wasn't the thrashing that the final score suggests it might have been.
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We were second to everything and was lucky to not receive an Arsenal result so don't make it out to something it really wasnt.
 
Gannicus said:
I wouldn't read too much into pool's two wins over us this season.

Sturridge got a freak bounce-off-the-back for the 1-0 win. They had the better possession but not by much.

The recent win was more humbling but two of their goals came off pk's that didn't need to happen and did not involve clear goal scoring opportunities. Suarez got a fair goal and pool deserved to win the game, but it really wasn't the thrashing that the final score suggests it might have been.
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We were well and truly deservedly beaten last week. Rodgers downright outclassed Moyes tactically, and our Dave hadn't an answer.
 
Moyes hasn't got the leeway to not take any games seriously at the moment, regardless of whether we have anything to play for or not. Tomorrow is a big, big match. It's all very well claiming there's a change in the air after beating poor teams like Olympiakos and West Ham, but it's when you play good teams that you're truly measured.
 
One question for those who are pro-moyes, how exactly do you think Moyes will instill a winning mentality in the team when he's not known for having one (a winner's mentality)? It's been with Fergie presumably most if not all his life. Not trying to compare him to Fergie and what he achieved but more so the mentality or his imprint on the team.
 
Gladiator said:
One question for those who are pro-moyes, how exactly do you think Moyes will instill a winning mentality in the team when he's not known for having one (a winner's mentality)? It's been with Fergie presumably most if not all his life. Not trying to compare him to Fergie and what he achieved but more so the mentality or his imprint on the team.
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I'm not in anyway sold by Moyes, but I guess he's going to remove Ferguson's men in the summer and bring in his own players. Whether or not this will instill a winning mentality I'm not so sure. I genuinely believe the plan is to spend big and bring in talent of such magnitude that they can practically manage themselves. Will it be a successful strategy, again I'm not so sure.
 
We will see, there has been a whiff of change since kick off against Olympiakos but I sense that change has come from the players, they are the ones with the winning mentality. The question might be, can the players instil a winning mentality on Moyes.
 
Gladiator said:
One question for those who are pro-moyes, how exactly do you think Moyes will instill a winning mentality in the team when he's not known for having one (a winner's mentality)? It's been with Fergie presumably most if not all his life. Not trying to compare him to Fergie and what he achieved but more so the mentality or his imprint on the team.
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People give Moyes shit for not having a "winning mentality" but there is only so far a winning mentality can take you. When you look at the financial constraints upon Everton it is very impressive that he established them as a regular top 8 side at all...which is probably why he won 3 manager of the year awards. Fergie only won 4. You don't win those without having a "winning mentality". Everton even miraculously got top 4 during his tenure - which is incredible given the competition in the PL and Everton's financial stature.
 
gasmanc said:
We will see, there has been a whiff of change since kick off against Olympiakos but I sense that change has come from the players, they are the ones with the winning mentality. The question might be, can the players instil a winning mentality on Moyes.
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hmm food for thought. i've never heard of such a situation before though
 
Being manager of Manchester United alone should have instilled a winning mentality and a less cautious approach.
 
Lu Tze said:
People give Moyes shit for not having a "winning mentality" but there is only so far a winning mentality can take you. When you look at the financial constraints upon Everton it is very impressive that he established them as a regular top 8 side at all...which is probably why he won 3 manager of the year awards. You don't win those without having a "winning mentality". Everton even miraculously got top 4 during his tenure - which is incredible given the competition in the PL and Everton's financial stature.
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pragmatic =/ winning mentality. when you setup to stifle your opponent more often than not and say you'll be lucky to get out of old trafford with anything, i dont associate that with a winning mentality. So when Newcastle did well enough to get into the Europa league, were we saying Pardew had instilled a winning mentality on his team then?

everton had financial constraints but they still brought in good players. something has to be said for the fact that a good number of forwards (i.e. saha, beattie) who joined Everton under moyes saw their scoring records gradually decrease
 
Lu Tze said:
People give Moyes shit for not having a "winning mentality" but there is only so far a winning mentality can take you. When you look at the financial constraints upon Everton it is very impressive that he established them as a regular top 8 side at all...which is probably why he won 3 manager of the year awards. Fergie only won 4. You don't win those without having a "winning mentality". Everton even miraculously got top 4 during his tenure - which is incredible given the competition in the PL and Everton's financial stature.
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His accolades at Everton are not really transferable or comparable to the requirements of Manchester United.
 
Gladiator said:
One question for those who are pro-moyes, how exactly do you think Moyes will instill a winning mentality in the team when he's not known for having one (a winner's mentality)? It's been with Fergie presumably most if not all his life. Not trying to compare him to Fergie and what he achieved but more so the mentality or his imprint on the team.
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we're on a winning run now non-believer.....

the jury is obviously out on Moyes but winning is a habit he needs to get into....winning games consistently, getting that first trophy, building on it

He could hardly have been expected to win trophies at Everton

the one thing he did win was Manager of the Year - three times to be exact
 
Gladiator said:
pragmatic =/ winning mentality. when you setup to stifle your opponent more often than not and say you'll be lucky to get out of old trafford with anything, i dont associate that with a winning mentality. So when Newcastle did well enough to get into the Europa league, were we saying Pardew had instilled a winning mentality on his team then?
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When a team of Everton's stature is established as a perennial top 8 team, that clearly requires getting a lot of wins. Moyes at Everton won 42% of his games. SAF at St. Mirren won 43%. Klopp at Mainz won 40%. Heynckes at Athletic - 41%. Did those managers not have winning mentalities at that point in their careers?

More examples:

Pocchetino at Espanyol:32%.
Pellegrini at Malaga:41%
Trappatoni at Bayern: 36%
 
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My hope here is that Moyes has been playing within himself, he's certainly a better manager than what we've been treated to so far. The Liverpool defeat was a new low and perhaps the players and now manager can start to think with a little more clarity. It's immensely difficult to perform when your under pressure, hopefully Moyes has been unable to see the wood for the trees and now he's been so low on the floor it should feel less pressured (balls to it mentality should kick in). If he can give us a good finish we might see him grow into the job of Manchester United manager, I won't be betting on it anytime soon though.
 
Lu Tze said:
People give Moyes shit for not having a "winning mentality" but there is only so far a winning mentality can take you. When you look at the financial constraints upon Everton it is very impressive that he established them as a regular top 8 side at all...which is probably why he won 3 manager of the year awards. Fergie only won 4. You don't win those without having a "winning mentality". Everton even miraculously got top 4 during his tenure - which is incredible given the competition in the PL and Everton's financial stature.
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What he did there was undoubtedly very impressive and he clearly had a mentality to win games - but that's difference from a 'winning mentality' if you know what I mean. Despite his success, it's telling that Moyes never won a trophy with Everton and had a terrible away record against the traditional big 4 games. We need a manager who can be successful and to do that you need a manager who can beat the big teams and be confident in doing so, but he's not. Here's hoping we show signs of changing that tomorrow though, although I think it's very unlikely long term.
 
When he was in charge of Everton, Moyes may not have needed to set out to beat teams who were expected to be consistently better than Everton (though he often did, at home) but he sure as hell had to win games against everyone else.

Now he has to do the exact same thing at United. Regularly win against teams with squads of comparable strength, or weaker.

The one blot on his copy-book is an inability to ever get Everton to punch above their weight in a cup competition. The idea that he doesn't know how to set out to win football matches is a complete myth though.
 
Cheesy said:
What he did there was undoubtedly very impressive and he clearly had a mentality to win games - but that's difference from a 'winning mentality' if you know what I mean. Despite his success, it's telling that Moyes never won a trophy with Everton and had a terrible away record against the traditional big 4 games. We need a manager who can be successful and to do that you need a manager who can beat the big teams and be confident in doing so, but he's not. Here's hoping we show signs of changing that tomorrow though, although I think it's very unlikely long term.
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Then again if a team that regularly finishes 6th or 5th has a good away record against a top 4 side, the top 4 side must be doing something really bad. I want Moyes to succeed and we will get our answer next season after completing his team. If next year during December we're in the same situation as now after signing who he needs, I can't see him staying the remainder of the season.
 
Kill 'em all said:
Then again if a team that regularly finishes 6th or 5th has a good away record against a top 4 side, the top 4 side must be doing something really bad.
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I'm not asking that he had a great record and was winning most games: it was natural that he'd lose a lot more than he won. For him to actually win one though would have been expected over the time he was there.
 
Lu Tze said:
When a team of Everton's stature is established as a perennial top 8 team, that clearly requires getting a lot of wins. Moyes at Everton won 42% of his games. SAF at St. Mirren won 43%. Klopp at Mainz won 40%. Heynckes at Athletic - 41%. Did those managers not have winning mentalities at that point in their careers?

More examples:

Pocchetino at Espanyol:32%.
Pellegrini at Malaga:41%
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you do realise a winning mentality in the sense i'm talking about doesn't necessarily mean you'll always win the game? it's easy to pull out percentages vs analysis of each situation.

here's part of what i'm getting at. the stat that shows how moyes consistently struggled to win away against the top sides despite his other impressive achievements. also the words he would use when going to these sides was more negative than showing a sense of we're going there to win the game. this is part of what i mean and maybe partly what G. Nev meant when he said manchester united will change moyes.

his results show that he obviously can get his team to win but one stat i found interesting is in contrast to previous seasons, everton are scoring more goals in the final minutes game than they usually did under moyes.
 
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Pogue Mahone said:
When he was in charge of Everton, Moyes may not have needed to set out to beat teams who were expected to be consistently better than Everton (though he often did, at home) but he sure as hell had to win games against everyone else.

Now he has to do the exact same thing at United. Regularly win against teams with squads of comparable strength, or weaker.

The one blot on his copy-book is an inability to ever get Everton to punch above their weight in a cup competition. The idea that he doesn't know how to set out to win football matches is a complete myth though.
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The main difference here at United is that teams will come and defend with a hope of countering which is probably the position Moyes is used to. When it comes to setting out a team to probe and attack whilst remaining defensively sound we've been found out by every man and his dog. Is it pure coincidence were top of the away wins league and have suffered terribly at home.
 
Moyes' 'winning mentality' at Everton is still not transferable to what would be considered a 'winning mentality' at Manchester United.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
When he was in charge of Everton, Moyes may not have needed to set out to beat teams who were expected to be consistently better than Everton (though he often did, at home) but he sure as hell had to win games against everyone else.

Now he has to do the exact same thing at United. Regularly win against teams with squads of comparable strength, or weaker.

The one blot on his copy-book is an inability to ever get Everton to punch above their weight in a cup competition. The idea that he doesn't know how to set out to win football matches is a complete myth though.
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Most of us aren't really saying he doesn't know how to set out to win matches. He does - and did at Everton sometimes - but his overall record in the games against the big sides wasn't particularly inspiring. It was decent at home, and poor away from home. Again, no one should have been expecting him to win a lot away from home against the traditional top 4, but the occasional win here or there would have been expected from him.

The fact he's never won a domestic cup either is fairly telling for me as well. Again, no one would really expect him to have a full cabinet of trophies, but in a decade at a club where he was generally finishing top 6/7 with the odd exception should have arguably yielded one or two trophies. It points to a lack of a winning mentality when it comes to big games which has shown here so far in his record against the top half sides.
 
Gladiator said:
you do realise a winning mentality in the sense i'm talking about doesn't necessarily mean you'll win the game? it's easy to pull out percentages vs analysis of each situation
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winning mentality....not connected with winning games....does not compute.
 
Cheesy said:
The fact he's never won a domestic cup either is fairly telling for me as well. Again, no one would really expect him to have a full cabinet of trophies, but in a decade at a club where he was generally finishing top 6/7 with the odd exception should have arguably yielded one or two trophies. It points to a lack of a winning mentality when it comes to big games which has shown here so far in his record against the top half sides.
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What, like Wenger? Domestic cups are hugely luck dependent.
 
Lu Tze said:
winning mentality....not connected with winning games....does not compute.
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He made the point poorly, but I think he was more referring to Moyes' mentality when it came to competitions and the bigger games where his record ranged from decent to poor. No one's saying he doesn't have a mentality to win games. That would be nonsense since it's clear he won plenty of them at Everton.
 
gasmanc said:
The main difference here at United is that teams will come and defend with a hope of countering which is probably the position Moyes is used to. When it comes to setting out a team to probe and attack whilst remaining defensively sound we've been found out by every man and his dog. Is it pure coincidence were top of the away wins league and have suffered terribly at home.
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He absolutely faces new challenges stepping up to manage a club like United. Wasn't that always obvious though? Same would apply to any other manager getting his first gig at a big club like this. He has to learn on the job. Not ideal but inevitable once we made the decision not to go with a more established manager.

Still doesn't mean he lacks a winning mentality.
 
Lu Tze said:
What, like Wenger? Domestic cups are hugely luck dependent.
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Yeah, they are luck dependent. He happened to get luck in his own favour though back in 2009 when we were awful in that penalty shoot-out against them, for example. Again, I'm not saying he should have been walking every domestic trophy, but it's telling that he never won one.

As much as Wenger's a top manager, if there's been one major criticism of the man in recent years it's that he's lacked that winning mentality and his side have often bottled it, resulting in them failing to win anything.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Heh. You've had your arse handed to you on a plate made of stats. At this point you should concede and move on.
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but those stats dont really tell you about a manager's winning mentality in the sense i'm talking about. you can setup your team to not lose and still win the game
 
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