We owe city a good hiding.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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We owe city a good hiding.
A men.
We might just surprise them, they are expecting to win, we really are the underdogs. That has not usually been the case.
Is this really likely though? This summer we'd be probably one of the most attractive job opportunities you could imagine - sure we'd be without europe for a season but we seem to have massive amounts of money to spend, a very good base of players already here full of proven winners (I'm actually a bit worried about how many of those seem to be leaving/likely to leave this summer, though), all the trappings that usually go into managing a club of this size and history, plus there'd be a buffer for previously inevitable Fergie comparisons (for both players and fans). It's hard to believe we'd only be able to attract the likes of Pochettino and Martinez.
Apparently Barcelona's managerial job will become vacant in the summer, it may be difficult to go head to head with them for a manager. I know most managers would jump at the chance of managing Messi.
Maybe we could get Fergie to recommend them one.
Lets hope they take Rodgers. 2 birds, 1 stone and all that.
He's on a semi right now thinking about all them Spanish penalties
I do think they could go with him. Ticks boxes.
Something about an ex Pool manager that I just cant feel comfortable about.
Barcelona would surely go for Simeone or Klopp before Rodgers.
I'm glad they want to do better.Simeone and Martinez will be first, Klopp or Rogers there's a bit of a language barrier.
I've wanted to see progress to be prepared to give Moyes a chance. While two swallows don't make a summer (or something) I have to give credit to Moyes where its due. In the last two games he's tried two tactical approaches that are quite different, and both worked.
Vs Olympiakos we sat a little deeper, and used the direct thrust of Wellbeck down the left to support RvP up front, with Rooney playing behind, Tony V in a disciplined role and Giggs conducting.
Vs West Ham we went for controlled possession, with a proper 5 man midfield, working the ball from the back, being prepared to hold it around the middle then squeezing the whole team upfield, knowing Andy Carroll's pace is troubling no-one.
I wouldn't say these made up for the tactical aberrations of the year so far. But credit where its due. These weren't just him choosing 4-4-2 and us just about forcing our way over the line by virtue of having vastly better players as in many. This was two nicely considered approaches in a row.
Is this progress? Well, in the same way that getting up off the sofa is progress towards climbing a mountain. Gotta start somewhere, but a looong way to go.
I'm still of the view that once we knew David Moyes was not the stable, safe paid of hands we hoped, his justification as manager went. At that point why not get Klopp? However I'm also of the view that we're not getting rid of him this summer after the CL result, so I want him to do well.
Vs Olympiakos we sat a little deeper, and used the direct thrust of Wellbeck down the left to support RvP up front, with Rooney playing behind, Tony V in a disciplined role and Giggs conducting.
Vs West Ham we went for controlled possession, with a proper 5 man midfield, working the ball from the back, being prepared to hold it around the middle then squeezing the whole team upfield, knowing Andy Carroll's pace is troubling no-one.
I wouldn't say these made up for the tactical aberrations of the year so far. But credit where its due. These weren't just him choosing 4-4-2 and us just about forcing our way over the line by virtue of having vastly better players as in many. This was two nicely considered approaches in a row.
Is this progress? Well, in the same way that getting up off the sofa is progress towards climbing a mountain. Gotta start somewhere, but a looong way to go.
I'm still of the view that once we knew David Moyes was not the stable, safe paid of hands we hoped, his justification as manager went. At that point why not get Klopp? However I'm also of the view that we're not getting rid of him this summer after the CL result, so I want him to do well.
Yep - agree with that... these last two games have actually, seemingly, shown evidence of some sort of gameplan/use of tactics that has been absent for the majority of his reign.
The key one is tomorrow - very interested to see how he approaches City.
I will tell you one thing, Everton fans used to say "Moyes tryed a different approach for 1-2 games then reverted to old ways" which is a tiny worry for me.
A 5 man midfield is good yes, all the top teams in Europe do a 5 man midfield, bar perhaps Real Madrid who seem to go all out attack, Barcelona control football matches so do Bayern.
Problem is when RVP is fit, players play out of possession and the balance of the team is messed up, so RVPs injury right now is a blessing in disguise.
City are beatable, they are defensively liable at times, not just with the obvious Demichelis and with Kompany out, but Touré isn't disciplined enough, so it'll be interesting.
I can't shake a nagging doubt that we'll see the Palace/WBA->Liverpool phenomenon again. Encouraging team selection and tactics exposed as a quirk of resting players so we can revert to type in the next big game.
Still, you can easily take a much more positive view of things. @bishblaize is spot on above. I was arguing with someone on here last week that he would stick with Rooney and Mata in their usual roles then swap RvP with a natural number 9 like Welbeck or Hernandez, thereby minimising the changes to the team/tactics we've seen in the season so far. The fact that he didn't has to be a positive. It's only a minor detail but when Welbeck and Chicho came on, I was expecting the two of them to go up top and Kagawa out wide, the way we'd seen earlier in the season. Instead, Kagawa played at 10, Danny out wide and we saw more of the same measured, possession-based football that we'd seen with Rooney and Mata on the pitch.
Really pleasing to see us close out a game by not allowing the opposition get hold of the ball. It's happened far too infrequently this season.
Still, you can easily take a much more positive view of things. @bishblaize is spot on above. I was arguing with someone on here last week that he would stick with Rooney and Mata in their usual roles then swap RvP with a natural number 9 like Welbeck or Hernandez, thereby minimising the changes to the team/tactics we've seen in the season so far. The fact that he didn't has to be a positive. It's only a minor detail but when Welbeck and Chicho came on, I was expecting the two of them to go up top and Kagawa out wide, the way we'd seen earlier in the season. Instead, Kagawa played at 10, Danny out wide and we saw more of the same measured, possession-based football that we'd seen with Rooney and Mata on the pitch.
Really pleasing to see us close out a game by not allowing the opposition get hold of the ball. It's happened far too infrequently this season.
Moyes will get better. Regardless of the shifting mood after individual results, this season has been nothing short of catastrophic by everyone's pre-seasons standards and he will, undoubtedly, find some stability at some point. It can't be any worse and time does breed stability, that much is true, it just doesn't guarantee success, and the two aren't remotely the same thing.
The test of Moyes shouldn't be whether he can get us playing better than the absolute rubbish we've seen so far in 2014 (which at times bordered on relegation form) or push into the top 4 at some point to make up the numbers, but whether he can genuinely compete with Chelsea, City, Madrid, Barca etc. Whether he can tactically go toe to toe with the Mourinhos, Ancelottis and Klopps of this world and have us competing not only for the title, but being genuine, fancied contenders for the CL and on all other fronts too. Otherwise, what's the point?
The test of Moyes shouldn't be whether he can get us playing better than the absolute rubbish we've seen so far in 2014 (which at times bordered on relegation form) or push into the top 4 at some point to make up the numbers, but whether he can genuinely compete with Chelsea, City, Madrid, Barca etc. Whether he can tactically go toe to toe with the Mourinhos, Ancelottis and Klopps of this world and have us competing not only for the title, but being genuine, fancied contenders for the CL and on all other fronts too. Otherwise, what's the point?
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This is the issue, for me. The lack of good football all season, this has probably been the worst footballing season I've ever witnessed from Manchester United. Although I was pleased with Saturday and am hoping to baby Jesus it is something Moyes can build on. And then there is the thought of Moyes going head to head with the likes of Mourinho and Guardiola, I can never see him outclassing them, personally. Even Rodgers is a worry. Manchester United should be striving for excellence like we've seen with Barcelona and now Bayern, we've always placed more emphasis on domestic domination though and I believe the board are hoping Moyes can grow into this role. I'm still majorly skeptical, and will need to see maintained progress if Moyes is to win me over. I just never see us toppling Arsenal under Moyes, let alone Chelsea and City.
Additionally - it's all well and good when the gameplan works from the start and we take the lead.... but so far we've not seen one shred of evidence that suggests that Moyes has the nouse to change a game when it's going wrong. Liverpool is the prime example for that.
Moyes waits too long to change it in a game yes, it's why he does need players capable of playing various positions to shift them.
Problem is too, you have spells in a game where you dominate so you do need to ride out pressured parts of games sometimes, your players need to be intelligent and tactically aware too.
I'm being pedantic here but we've 4 points from 2 games against them this season.
Absolutely.
Getting better than we've been this season is inevitable. A group this good simply cannot keep continuing to play this badly and no manager can keep them there. Eventually, were going to get better under Moyes. Of course we are. But as you say, that cannot be the standard to gauge him by. We have the resources, both in terms of players and resources, to be competing right at the top for all major honors, and that's the yardstick Moyes will have to perform in the background of. Not an initial clusterfeck of as season we plummeted shockingly under him.
And to be fair to him, I read a comment recently from him that we have to challenge next season and if he is in charge then, I hope that's exactly what the board expect, and that he's held accountable in respect to it too. Because this season, he certainly hasn't.
Yeah, but we're essentially Arsenal's bogey side. Anyway, you know what I meant. I don't see a Wenger side finishing below a Moyes' one, not going on the current evidence.
In another thread I started noodling about lessons learned from this season. Seems to me that our most potent attack came from having Mata/Kagawa or Rooney as a 10, with a striker at 9-an X factor player (Januzaj, Wellbeck or Valencia) offering a Plan B for attacking though the middle. Given that, I think at least on offense there's a reasonably good approach that can be built on next year.
No surprise, but I'm not sure that I've seen a MF combo/plan that provides much of a guide for going forward-which underscores, for the 1 billionth time our need to upgrade at that position. I think Rafael, Smalling Jones and Evans have shown enough that we can be OK at the back--with a LB replacement for Evra.
That said-we come to the manager. I agree with @Mockney, United's manager must be judged on his ability to compete with Real, Barca, Bayern, PSG, Chelsea, City, etc: Europe's elite. I've read and heard all of the rationales for those who say that Moyes is largely not responsibility for this year's poor form. I not convinced-and fear that even with upgrades at CM and LB we'll be having the same conversation in October/November of next year.
But-I think that with the right signings, and either Moyes figuring it out or getting someone in who can--United are not too far off returning to the last 20 years' form.
No surprise, but I'm not sure that I've seen a MF combo/plan that provides much of a guide for going forward-which underscores, for the 1 billionth time our need to upgrade at that position. I think Rafael, Smalling Jones and Evans have shown enough that we can be OK at the back--with a LB replacement for Evra.
That said-we come to the manager. I agree with @Mockney, United's manager must be judged on his ability to compete with Real, Barca, Bayern, PSG, Chelsea, City, etc: Europe's elite. I've read and heard all of the rationales for those who say that Moyes is largely not responsibility for this year's poor form. I not convinced-and fear that even with upgrades at CM and LB we'll be having the same conversation in October/November of next year.
But-I think that with the right signings, and either Moyes figuring it out or getting someone in who can--United are not too far off returning to the last 20 years' form.
Agreed, in no way should his season be judged on a few games, it should be from the entire season, start to finish. I don't care now if he finishes strong or has 3 or 4 good results, If we don't get in the top 4 he should be gone.
Well we're evidently not getting in the top four, so why the "if"?
I wouldn't care personally. He's not even been there two years.
But it will never happen. He'll probably want to create his legacy there.
With world class players he can't exactly do badly next season, flexible systems to play, dominating football matches, he will grow in confidence, he needs to be a bit more arrogant and bold with his teams though, learning to smother teams out of games.
Mourinho does it well, makes his teams work hard, frustrates opponents, all making crucial blocks, he makes his teams not play pretty, but they are very hard to play against.
Honestly, if we beat City, he can come round my house, shag my wife - no questions asked.
The last two games have shown me that we still have an excellent squad of adaptable players, meaning that if Moyes gets the selection and tactics right we can swat away average and below average teams. So it is up to him to continue to get it right. We are at home in the next 3 games. Will he show the courage and good instincts of Ferguson or will he withdraw once again into his ineffective mode?
We're relying on Moyes growing a pair, I'm not sure he has enough cockiness or even confidence in his own ability but we'll see.
"I'm going to make it hard for her."
He's been playing football manager in his spare time this week, he said he wants to do it "for the fans" this week
Fixed...... someone call Pele!
Ah, spot on.
If he has a top squad he will have to produce top results. Not doing badly simply won't be good enough. It's all relative to the quality of our squad,,which is already very good IMO, rather than relative to this season. And I'm sure Moyes is completely aware of that and will aim high if he's in charge.
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