The bimoylar is kicking in again.
Moyes So Far!
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The bimoylar is kicking in again.
Actually, I think its getting the job done against the poor teams that's hurt us. We've had poor results against sides like West Brom (H), Stoke (A), Cardiff (A), Fulham (H). Had we managed not to drop points against any of those sides we'd be in the top four tonight and on our way towards Champions League qualification.
Lets face it Moyes has made a pig's ear of this season. However, he did the right thing today in getting the magic midgets playing together. Was it forced on him by circumstance? Maybe. But hopefully he's seen something today and will keep it up. Whatever the weather I'm just glad he's seen the light when it comes to Kagawa and Mata.
The bimoylar is kicking in again.
"You're right, we've scored a wonder goal"???
ERMAGERD, he's taking credit for Wayne's goal now??? Arrogant prat!!!
WT, just incase.
Obviously it's been a good week so people are naturally going to pleased after a decent win, but I've got a similar feeling in that while we did win, I won't feel like anything has changed until we can do this against a top side. Our record against the bottom half sides has been okay actually for a side in 7th, but our record against the top teams, when it often matters even more, has been appalling.
I disagree. You'll always drop the odd silly point here and there, and we've probably done that once or twice too many against the teams you've mentioned. But what is it, one win in 12 against the top nine? That's absurd, really. Especially since losing twice to Liverpool for instance is a full 12 point swing - the six they win, the six they lose.
I'm happy with Moyes's selection today, but if he doesn't persist with it, if he doesn't show the belief and the balls to use it in the big games, then in the grand scheme of things, we've not moved much forward.
@#07
Val is probably being rested after his eye injury and for Thursday. I remain sceptical that this was a Moyes masterplan to get us playing like Barca. More that he was using the squad in an easier fixture, had a couple of injuries and has one eye on Tuesday. Lets see what team he puts out against City.
Val is probably being rested after his eye injury and for Thursday. I remain sceptical that this was a Moyes masterplan to get us playing like Barca. More that he was using the squad in an easier fixture, had a couple of injuries and has one eye on Tuesday. Lets see what team he puts out against City.
Agreed. People are forgetting the meaning of mid-table: you beat teams below you and lose to those above you. Until that pattern stops-Moyes is unconvincing to me.
Let's see how we do on Tuesday - back to back wins should help a lot with confidence, and if lack of confidence has been a contributory factor to the season's problems, we should at least be able to put up a decent show.
I think today's performance will have given him serious food for thought with regards team selection and tactics, or I at least hope so anyway.
Nah...I'm not convinced...I said Wednesday that we were average but got a good result. I was shot down!
This was a much better team performance!...Still not convinced! A few more of these, in a row, and I will be slightly turned
Crackers my good man, thats the smartest thing I've heard all day, Moyes has got to go, winning these meaningless games against relegation fodder means nothing to me.
I realised that after I posted it.
I am not saying Moyes' record against the big teams is excusable, but I remember coming bottom of the top four league in terms of results against our title rivals and still finishing first (was it 2009?)
Our results against the little teams has been what has really torpedoed our season. We have always been good at spanking the bottom feeders and the middling sides. Yes, there's always one or two idiotic results but usually we crush the small sides. So much so that the likes of Ronaldo were once labelled 'flat track bullies' and their 'big game' credentials were questioned.
Its the fact we haven't even been able to stomp on the smaller sides that's really messed us up. Had we got 12 points from the games I mentioned we'd have 63 points and be above Arsenal. We are not going to get into the Champions League next year, unless we win the thing, because this year we've been weak against the little clubs.
Had Moyes selected a side like today's more often I reckon we would've got that 12 points. I hope he learns from what we've seen.
While I agree that Moyes has to go(sooner rather later), beating them today does mean something. Proved we still have the talent there, and under the right management, we could be devastating.
Imagine a proper back 4 and midfield backing up Kagawa,Mata and another player with Rooney up top.
Moyes has certainly afforded himself some breathing space since the Liverpool debacle anyway. This is all we can ask of the man I suppose. It will certainly help if we continue to play an attractive brand of attacking football like today, and maintain some momentum for Christ sake!
Please don't encourage him.
Normally I'm a big Moyes critic, but he got it all right today. We discussed a lot on here how he'd go Rooney behind Welbeck and keep the two strikers thing going but fair play to him he picked the kind of team we've all been crying out for all season and it paid off. Hopefully he see's how well today went and keeps picking this kind of side.
well...if we lose on tuesday I expect the Caf to be back to Moyes out language. I'm not really expecting us to win that...best a draw, but as long as we compete and play good passing football and have some sort of shape, then I will be pleased. City are really going for it now and we are only just really seemingly getting out of the starting blocks, so it's going to be tough. I do think RVP's injury is going to allow him to play his more creative players together and that can only be a good thing.
Rooney was bloody excellent today again. He really seems to have got his mojo back.
Rooney was bloody excellent today again. He really seems to have got his mojo back.
100% agreed. Southampton (injury time equalizer), Cardiff (same), West Brom (unexcusable home loss), Fulham (still can't believe they scored twice) are the obvious ones. That's 3/12 when it really should've been 12/12, even with us being shit and all.
You can't expect a 100% record in the 22 matches against teams ranked between 10th and 20th. You shouldn't lose too many points there and like I said, maybe we dropped a few too many, but gaining the 10 (not 12) points we dropped in those four matches is just not realistic. Here and there, you'll drop points.
You've mentioned us winning the league despite doing badly against the top four, but that's the thing - we're not doing badly against the top four, which is manageble, we're doing badly against the top NINE. If you add Newcastle, Southampton and maybe Everton to the likes of West Brom and Stoke and say we should have gained more points against the lot from 6th to 20th, then I agree. But it seems like we're OK against the weaker sides. Once we come up against a good side, let alone a very good side, we're in trouble.
You can't expect to win all 22 matches against the 11th weaker sides in order to compensate for shit results against the other 8. Losing to Everton at HOME, losing to Newcastle at HOME, drawing to Southampton at HOME, losing to Spurs at HOME, I'm not even talking about the really good sides - here's some of your badly dropped points.
That's a really fair point. Our record against Chelsea and City over the past few years has been spotty-while we just didn't drop points against lesser teams. Dropping points at home to Newcastle, Fulham and WBA just killed us this season.
Yeah, I don't disagree that we should have at least drawn with Spurs, Everton and Newcastle. And I do blame our tactic of trying to cross our way to victory for the bad results we had against those sides.
I'm not actually disagreeing with you that much. Just making the point that Moyes' record against the big sides isn't what has really messed us up. Its our below par showings against the middling teams and the bottom half teams that's really hamstrung us.
The way to beat those sides, as the current top four has shown, and as we showed today is to out football them. Too often we've looked like a bottom half team ourselves, getting it wide and trying to put hopeful balls in. I hope today is a sign Moyes has learned that we cannot out-Stoke the Stoke's of this world. We need to play to our strengths and use the real creativity and talent in our team properly.
City is the game that will define if any tangible progress is being made by Moyes. He's done a very good job so far of at once dampening expectations but then heightening them simply due to beating an average Olympiacos and a poor West Ham. When you reach rock bottom, which occurred last Sunday, any sign of improvement makes people feel better. It will take a seriously impressive display from him and the side on Tuesday to keep any momentum going. We won't be afforded the space to play like today so we need to force the issue, something we have struggled to do at home this season.
I for one simply cannot talk about progress until there is something consistent to refer to. I'm tired of hearing this bullshit about "turning corners" etc. because corners can be turned frequently it's just how straight you stay once you do.
I for one simply cannot talk about progress until there is something consistent to refer to. I'm tired of hearing this bullshit about "turning corners" etc. because corners can be turned frequently it's just how straight you stay once you do.
Nobody should be 'convinced'. We're all looking off into the future, the question isn't are we good now but can we be good in the future and how will the team look in the future, will it be a way we want it to look? I think since Christmas we've had big mixed signals , Moyes is certainly getting to grips with the huge squad now (45 unique team selections should tell you how many options he had, not just injuries). I think he's getting to the stage where he knows the combos quite well, and even we saw a new combo today do something good, and I think he's going to be able to put out the right teams for the right occassion's more often. I always thought that next season, which some additions, we'll be capable for resilient defending and good attacking play. I think we've seen good evidence for this so far. Maybe that's debatable, I don't know. But I think there's enough evidence to say we CAN be good in these two areas.
For me the big question about Moyes is the negativity. Will it continue or will he eventually get his head around managing this club, that we can't sit on 1 goal leads and that we have to get very attacking players on the pitch as often as possible? Has this changed at all since the start of the season? Like I said I think at times it has been better and at times it really hasn't. At the start of the season he was so often clinging on for dear life to a 1 goal result and we ended up dropping about 10 points by christmas to late goals that would have been avoided in the SAF era just by controlling the end of games much better.
Conclusion: I think that this negativity (defending 1 goal leads primarily, sometimes 2 goal leads) hasn't changed, but he has gotten the team to be better at hanging on. This is welcome cos we can pick up some points, but I think we would all prefer if we just ran the clock down in a dominant
For me the big question about Moyes is the negativity. Will it continue or will he eventually get his head around managing this club, that we can't sit on 1 goal leads and that we have to get very attacking players on the pitch as often as possible? Has this changed at all since the start of the season? Like I said I think at times it has been better and at times it really hasn't. At the start of the season he was so often clinging on for dear life to a 1 goal result and we ended up dropping about 10 points by christmas to late goals that would have been avoided in the SAF era just by controlling the end of games much better.
Conclusion: I think that this negativity (defending 1 goal leads primarily, sometimes 2 goal leads) hasn't changed, but he has gotten the team to be better at hanging on. This is welcome cos we can pick up some points, but I think we would all prefer if we just ran the clock down in a dominant
Today was a good side, but he's had these players available to him and not played them before. Today's chemistry seemed more stumbled upon as opposed to a deliberate decision to go in a certain direction. Many fans have wanted Mata central since forever, for example.
Anyway, long may this continue.
Let's wait and see if he learns from today's game. So far this season, he hasn't really
Question is, how this will work not against the Stokes of the world, but against the Spurs-Southampton-Everton-Newcastle bunch.
he played a 'pleasing' team versus liverpool and we got hockeyed. It's not just a matter of putting out players that red cafe want to see.
Beating Olympiakos and West Ham are hardly landmark results. It was a decent performances, but it was against a team 6 points above relegation. I guess it is an improvement over some of the results under him so far. I still expect us to lose on Tuesday.
I think the most pleasing thing about today and Olympiakos is the fact that we've put in two of our best performances with teams that we (the fans) probably wouldn't have dreamt of playing.
With regards to the City game, I'm not really holding out much expectation of a result. I am hoping that we can pull something off though, but I just think they're better than us at the moment. If the team go out there and leave it all on the pitch, put in a good performance, then I'll be happy. We'll address the quality in the summer and come again next season.
With regards to the City game, I'm not really holding out much expectation of a result. I am hoping that we can pull something off though, but I just think they're better than us at the moment. If the team go out there and leave it all on the pitch, put in a good performance, then I'll be happy. We'll address the quality in the summer and come again next season.
I don't think any tide is turning, but while there were many things to still have issue with on Wednesday, there was little here. We played quite well, and a lot of it was due to the team he picked. Fair dues when they're deserved.
I would not really say today says much about Moyes. It was similar to the Palace and WBA recent away wins. We have been quite consistent with dealing with these types of away games.
One positive I suppose you could give him is our away form. Bizarrely, we have THE BEST away record in the league in terms of points collected.
One positive I suppose you could give him is our away form. Bizarrely, we have THE BEST away record in the league in terms of points collected.
His record against the bottom half sides hasn't been brilliant, but it's been quite good considering our position. It's against the top sides that our record is clearly much worse in that we've beaten one of out 9 of them. You'll generally drop points against smaller sides here or there, as we've done, but you want to at least be winning a good few games against the top sides. We've been awful in that department.
I'm not sure how many of you have read the thread regarding United having more points away than any other team this season however it does beg the question, why have we had title challenging results away from home yet struggled at home?
Some answers others have given:
Some answers others have given:
- Teams defend more at old trafford requiring them to be patiently and systematically broken down, Moyes inexperience in this area has cost him, allowing them to play effective counter attacking football.
- Nerves from the crowd and players alike due to not having Ferguson resulting in the inevitable error leading to a late opposition goal. Perhaps even a lack of confidence playing in front of 75,000 fans with high expectations.
- A wide pitch somehow affecting the team.
- Possibly Moyes implementing different tactics / strategy at home than away.
I think you make a good point with that first one there; a lot more teams may try to defend against us at home, like in the Fulham games. Moyes' tactics have largely been stagnant and predictable against these sides, so we haven't broken them down. On top of that, when it's been the top teams we've come up against we've not been attacking enough, with it often costing us and resulting in us losing the match.
I think he's been a bit too defensive/counter orientated in a lot of home games. Teams shouldn't be coming to Old Trafford and be allowed to play. Especially not the likes of Newcastle and such.
As long as we pick points off the lower teams for the rest of the season, Moyes' job seems assured till summer now. The next transfer window performance will decide his future, I'd say. And ours, too.
Re: Home performance - I think it's more to do with the fact that everyone came to OT with lots of belief and confidence. I still think that if City hadn't hammered us that game, the entire season would have panned out differently.
Re: Home performance - I think it's more to do with the fact that everyone came to OT with lots of belief and confidence. I still think that if City hadn't hammered us that game, the entire season would have panned out differently.
I dont think the city game would have made much difference, there are a bunch of issues that have all combined to make this an awful season, some Moyes doing, some things out of his hands, some things which couldnt have been seen coming. Even if we had beaten City that day some of the issues would still have tripped us up.
No, my point was, if we had beaten City that day, we would still have that 'aura' around us. Instead, it disappeared and our cracks were finally exposed. If we had won that game, West Brom and Stoke and Newcastle would all have come to OT expecting a whipping, and would've gotten it too - since our players would've been high on confidence.
We would have tripped eventually, but not been in a situation where top 4 looks Herculean.
Anyways ifs and buts are ifs and buts. We'll never know, so.
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