Surely he will. And he'll probably rest players leading up to the Bayern tie as well.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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Hope you mean top 4 as opposed to top flight
Top 4, elite, whatever you wanna call it.
More importantly, which top manager isn't dedicated or resilient?
Steve Clarke for attacking tactics? West Brom were grim to watch.
At times they played really good stuff and Clarke was being hailed as a miracle worker this time last year.....and when you have to contain the opposition because you have far inferior players then not much you can do......Clark like Brendan Rodgers has been trained by the master Mourinho.....and West Ham and Liverpool were desperate to get him as a number 2 at their clubs in the past......in saying that if Moyes gave him a job then Moyes would probably still stick to his out to the wing and cross it in masterclass
The problem with Moyes is he doesn't seem to listen to advice. He ignored Fergie's advice of keeping his backroom staff and he strikes me as the type to surround himself with Yes men who dignify everyone of his actions regardless of whether they're right or wrong. So really I don't see bringing in a new ass.man to make that much a difference.
Let's consider some other pivotal fixtures this season, would you say that our exit from the League Cup was primarily down to this...bewilderment? Or our heavy defeats to Chelsea and Liverpool?
I really think he's no good for the club but I always look forward to every game optimistically for some reason hoping for a shift in his tactics.
To what?
More short passing, more narrow, more pressing.
Less "get the ball in the box", less sitting off, less Valencia, less young.
Not for me. It would take a consistent run of good footballing performances and results from now until the end of the season to convince me he should have a summer to improve on a good finish. And this would include creditable performances against Bayern also.
I simply don't see that improvement occurring. He's not reached the absolute bare minimum expected of a United manager.
.....Isn't that exactly what we've seen since buying Mata?
Looking at our standing in the league table, it's remarkable how consistent it's been: we've bounced between 6th and 9th since the 6th week of the season. Moreover, looking at the results in six game chunks, we've lost 3; 0; 2; 3; 1 (in 5 games). Our longest unbeaten stretch is seven games in October and November, when it looked like we were finding our feet. Back-to-back losses to Everton and Newcastle pretty much put an end to that idea.
If the issue is not Moyes, I guess the reasons for the consistently poor performance must change over time. Afterall-the squad issue can't be relevant for our form over the first six games--the players aged only three months between the end of the previous season and the beginning of this season. So--the reasons for the slow start (I guess) could be hypothesized as being down to the players being in shock over Fergie's absence or getting used to Moyes's training/tactics. That narrative may have provided encouragement, as our form improved in the next six games-no losses, even though we dropped points to S'hampton at home and Cardiff on the road-disquieting results.
So-the Moyes supporters could make a case around October/November that the team turned the corner-and with the return of injured players United's season would follow its usual course of improvement over the holidays and into the new year. No squad issues-mind: players were getting accustomed to Moyes and United would return to form.
Starting in December, United did not kick-on: the team's form did not improve. The squad that went on a seven-game streak of losing no games just a few months before was now being characterized as aging, with holes that require wholesale changes.
The Moyes out narrative is more straighforward: that he's never been up for the job, and with the exception of some decent form around October/November, the team's play has been largely uninspiring and mediocre. This is reflected in the team's position in the table in just about every week.
I'm trying to reconcile our poor form during pretty much the whole season with some of the reasons proffered by Moyes supporters-and they just don't add up to me. If the squad was bad-why was there an improvement in form? And-why such a slow start? If it's transition, why are things getting worse the longer Moyes is in place?
If the issue is not Moyes, I guess the reasons for the consistently poor performance must change over time. Afterall-the squad issue can't be relevant for our form over the first six games--the players aged only three months between the end of the previous season and the beginning of this season. So--the reasons for the slow start (I guess) could be hypothesized as being down to the players being in shock over Fergie's absence or getting used to Moyes's training/tactics. That narrative may have provided encouragement, as our form improved in the next six games-no losses, even though we dropped points to S'hampton at home and Cardiff on the road-disquieting results.
So-the Moyes supporters could make a case around October/November that the team turned the corner-and with the return of injured players United's season would follow its usual course of improvement over the holidays and into the new year. No squad issues-mind: players were getting accustomed to Moyes and United would return to form.
Starting in December, United did not kick-on: the team's form did not improve. The squad that went on a seven-game streak of losing no games just a few months before was now being characterized as aging, with holes that require wholesale changes.
The Moyes out narrative is more straighforward: that he's never been up for the job, and with the exception of some decent form around October/November, the team's play has been largely uninspiring and mediocre. This is reflected in the team's position in the table in just about every week.
I'm trying to reconcile our poor form during pretty much the whole season with some of the reasons proffered by Moyes supporters-and they just don't add up to me. If the squad was bad-why was there an improvement in form? And-why such a slow start? If it's transition, why are things getting worse the longer Moyes is in place?
Yeah, I think you can pretty much boil it down to "Is finishing 6/7th excusable for United?" No matter how creative the reasoning, the answer's pretty much always no.
Like against Fulham? We've seen it for the odd game or two but reverted to the same old stale stuff. I'm not counting arsenal away.
The passing between the lines is still very poor.
Fulham was an outlier. You will never again see a team set up so defensively and clog the middle so much. We had no option but to go out wide. By and large Val/Young have seen their play time severely curtailed in favour of the Januzaj/Mata duo, who do exactly what you want.
Other teams have come to OT and set up that way. What we lacked in that game, apart from not being super predictable, was pace. We were slow in our build up, even on the rare occasions we could break.
Do other top teams not have to contend with the Fulham's of this world? And we will see teams set up like Fulham did repeatedly. Ever season. I'm various leagues.
We scored two goals and conceded due to horrendous individual errors, what do you want Moyes to do, get out on the pitch and play himself? There's no accounting for Fletcher and Rooney being retards and not tracking their men. Shit happens.
In any case, this is not the point! The point is, Moyes has clearly moved towards the short passing game you so desire, as demonstrated by his favouring of the Mata/Januzaj pair over Val/Young. So criticise him for not winning more...but don't just pluck criticisms out of your arse.
Have a word with yourself.
We had many options, we chose to play the ball wide time and time again, the most frustrating thing about that game wasn’t the crossing, it was the fact that we refused to mix it up when plan A clearly wasn’t working.
I have never witnessed us play such one dimensional football, one of Fulham’s players likened it to his non-league playing days FFS.
Fulham had 8 defensive players on the pitch, and we scored 2 and conceded two due to individual errors. In any case- that's not the point, see above.
It's bonkers. I don't even like Moyes very much, but I'm having to defend him from people who don't feel the need to constrain themselves to facticity.
I agree that some of the criticism is over the top. But that particular game is not an instance where he did everything right and was just unlucky. That's the game where he said afterwards he didn't understand it as we had so many crosses. Those crosses were comfortably dealt with. We were one dimensional in the attacking third and we lacked urgency. Of course, these type of games are difficult, but much more so when the opposition knows what to expect from you each time you attack.
Legitimate questions. But this is a bit too simplistic. You can't conclude that we are significantly poorer right now than we were earlier in the season. If anything our last match was in many ways a high point in the season so far. It hasn't been an even development - neither a progression (clearly not) nor a steady regression. Inconclusive, would be my term of choice as far as this goes.
The squad isn't bad. It contains far too many high quality players to be considered bad. But it may be worse than we thought at the beginning of the season. It may have serious (for a club with our ambitions) deficiencies.
To me it looks like confidence is the main problem, though. It very often is with athletes these days. They're surprisingly fragile creatures, it seems. We're in a bad way at the moment, the players lack that confidence which makes winning most matches a matter of routine (the latter is exactly what they had under Fergie). There's no reason we should do as badly as we have against standard to sub-standard PL opposition, regardless of Moyes' tactical dispositions.
So, has Moyes failed to inspire them, to fill them with the necessary confidence? He clearly has. But how much of that is down to him being a horrible manager - and how much is down to the players suffering from some sort of post-Fergie blues? There are too many unknown factors here to make an informed judgment. It's not impossible that doing some necessary moves (players in, players out) to both strengthen the first team quality wise AND alter the chemistry of the dressing room will do the trick.
Is there anywhere to see a league table if the league started on January 1st? Just out of curiosity I'd like to see how we're doing so far this year in comparison to other clubs
I’ll agree that our tactics have changed slightly, but in no way noticeable enough to say that he’s changing his ways. Mata and Januzaj are starting more as they are the better players, both Young and Valencia have played themselves out of the team, mostly by their inability to cross the ball past the first man.
Against Liverpool, we had no plan, Liverpool pushed high up the pitch, had close control, passed the ball well, counter attacked when they could and used their attack as defense, they had a plan that they stuck to. I’m certain they had a plan B in place if they needed it, they have shown enough times this season that they can change tactics and positional places at the drop of a hat. We haven’t shown that once, well apart from sitting deeper as the game goes on.
In fact it seems we sometimes don’t have a plan. Against Liverpool, can you tell me what our tactics were? Even now the game has finished, it’s been discussed to death on here I still have no idea what his tactics were
Against Liverpool, we had no plan, Liverpool pushed high up the pitch, had close control, passed the ball well, counter attacked when they could and used their attack as defense, they had a plan that they stuck to. I’m certain they had a plan B in place if they needed it, they have shown enough times this season that they can change tactics and positional places at the drop of a hat. We haven’t shown that once, well apart from sitting deeper as the game goes on.
In fact it seems we sometimes don’t have a plan. Against Liverpool, can you tell me what our tactics were? Even now the game has finished, it’s been discussed to death on here I still have no idea what his tactics were
Confidence isn't great, but it's criminal to simply reduce this sides problems down to it. The Fulham game, for example, wasn't a game where we lacked the confidence to win. It was a game where we simply lacked the tactical nous to do anything other than play predictable, one-route football that you'd expect Stoke to play and Fulham were able to cope with it easily. Not winning that game was down to Moyes' tactical dispositions largely, not down to a lack of confidence. The same could be said for a number of other games where we've just played poorly. Confidence has been low perhaps, but that's not an excuse for utterly dire football.
Fulham was just the ultimate demonstration of our one dimensionless. You can argue its been getting worse in recent times even with Fergie but it was never this bad and Fergie didn't have Mata. It just always seems that we get one or the other, wingers who want to stay wide or wingers who all want to come inside. You need a mix of the two and in particular you need more than one player looking to get in behind otherwise having players who can pass like Mata/Rooney is pointless.
I think Moyes probably wanted Rooney/Mata to make runs for each other against Liverpoll, and thats something they clearly need to work on, but to me it looked like he wanted Januzaj to stay wide in the games he's played them together. That left only RVP to offer an option to stretch the other team. Hopefully though he's realised that you need players running in behind to stretch the game. That's what Welbeck brought in midweek and it was a good decision by him in fairness. Between then three of them Welbeck, Nani and januzaj I think we've got options to open up that space, they might do it in different ways but they can do it. And it might well bring out the best in Mata/Kagawa, the latter of whom will hopefully get some game time soon as Moyes mentioned. Hopefully we see those players playing off Rooney. I mean I thought Valencia was decent but I think those players can do a lot more as a unit, than any combination of them could do with Valencia in for one of them.
I think Moyes probably wanted Rooney/Mata to make runs for each other against Liverpoll, and thats something they clearly need to work on, but to me it looked like he wanted Januzaj to stay wide in the games he's played them together. That left only RVP to offer an option to stretch the other team. Hopefully though he's realised that you need players running in behind to stretch the game. That's what Welbeck brought in midweek and it was a good decision by him in fairness. Between then three of them Welbeck, Nani and januzaj I think we've got options to open up that space, they might do it in different ways but they can do it. And it might well bring out the best in Mata/Kagawa, the latter of whom will hopefully get some game time soon as Moyes mentioned. Hopefully we see those players playing off Rooney. I mean I thought Valencia was decent but I think those players can do a lot more as a unit, than any combination of them could do with Valencia in for one of them.
You're spouting nonsense though. That's not dependent on your "not loving Moyes" and valiantly "having to" defend him. We clearly didn't have to play that way though and we clearly will see other teams set up that way again. I don't see how you think you're right on those two counts unless you just want to argue for the sake of it.
Moyes is obviously not a horrible manager, but then, it doesn't mean the main problem is with the players. He's a good manager, but the job may be too big for him. Our squad is still very good, certainly far better than what we've been witnessing this season. Does it have issues? Of course it has, every team has weak sports, but I believe a better manager would be able to play to our strengths and at least partially hide those weaknesses.
Watching Liverpool and Chelsea today you'd have to say that you'd give your right arm for a manager who's specialty is to open other teams up and not one who's specialty is to contain other teams
How is this even relevant to what I was saying?
We've played narrower and shorter on and off this season without sustaining it. Also, when we do it we do it like we barely work on it in training. Our slow passing tends to be short, laborious, goes nowhere and ends up with a wide guy crossing. As usual.
Right-my point exactly: we had some stretches when we've played decently, and other stretches where we haven't played well. At the time people were attributing these changes in form to injuries, getting used to tactics, whatever.
It's probably a combination of many factors-but to me Moyes is the largest factor. Every team needs refreshing, has injuries, must integrate new players into the squad-and so on. I'm not sure that Moyes has faced a larger than normal set of challenges for any manager taking over a big side-except of course taking over for Fergie. For that reason I was expecting a drop in form from last year-but not to this extent. I'm not as optimistic changing the squad will result in much better outcomes under Moyes-but I think he's here for at least the start of next year.
In crude terms, I allocate responsibility for this year's poor performance (meaning finishing outside of the top 4) as follows:
Players aging at key positions: 15%
Moyes's man management problems: 35%
Moyes's tactics/substitutions: 35%
Players dealing with a large transition: 10%
Inexplicable/karma/whatever: 5%
So-I place Moyes's managerial failures front and center for this year's problems. As United's manager he will always have to deal with talented players not getting enough playing time--and he has not done a good job IMO in that regard. And-TBH-I have no idea what his tactics will be next year-as I haven't seen a pattern during the season. So-given that I rank these issues as most important in their contribution to this year's results, I have no expectations of seeing improvement next year.
I hope I'm wrong-and will happily eat my words with a nice Pinot Noir next year if that is the case.
Right now you'd give your right arm for a manager who looks fit for this level to be honest. Mourinho isn't that first category at all. Yes they scored six, but he's about getting his players superbly organised and effective rather than flair and exciting football. But heck, anything is better than the pile of piss we've put out so far.
Hopefully today we play with a bit more class to our gem from presumably a confidence building result the other night.
Ferguson also commented on how Wenger is an example of what stability can bring, and then I couldn't help but remark to myself, yes, no trophies for almost a decade.
Why arent you counting the Arsenal game? What the feck have you been watching?
Because we has no option but to play that way against arsenal. I've been watching united. Who the feck have you been watching?
Oh Bullshit. What a load of fecking bullshit.
Stop posting like a child. This is a forum for grown up discussion not mumbling curse words out of frustration.
Were always going to sit back and try to pick off arsenal in the little pockets of attack we had. It wasn't any sign of a deviation from our usual routine. Our issues have usually come in games where we've played on the front foot but resorted to brainless crossing I.e Fulham.
Clueless, utterly clueless.
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