I do think winning is preferred however they won't financially compete with City or Chelsea to achieve that and realistically the best they can hope for is an over-achiever tasked with delivering top four but instead mounts a serious title challenge. I think Moyes was supposed to be this man.
Moyes So Far!
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I do think winning is preferred however they won't financially compete with City or Chelsea to achieve that and realistically the best they can hope for is an over-achiever tasked with delivering top four but instead mounts a serious title challenge. I think Moyes was supposed to be this man.
I fully agree with this. Yes managers have some a few players they want to bring in, but properly good manager should be able to manage a group of players not of his own choosing. Even if that means playing a formation the manager himself is unused to playing, just to get the best out of the team.
There's two aspects to this management gig, there's the long-term squad building, and the week-in week-out match preparation, team selection and tactics. A good manager is good at both. In fact, from the perspective of a club, I would rather have a manager proficient at the latter. Long-term plans can be delegated to another executive if necessary.
Is there anything to read into this meeting which took place at OT or is it just everyone together before the big European tie?
Maybe they were discussing tactics if we go out.
Is it true that Moyes has written that we must bring any time wasting to the attention of the officials tonight in the programme?.
That's all well and good mate. But why would a top tactician agree to work under him in the first place ? Can you honestly picture CQ working under a hands-on manager like David ? CQ was perfect with SAF because he took control over the training sessions and Fergie receded into a supervisory role somewhat. Employing a great assistant manager will just undermine DM's position further and he'll lose any smidgeon of respect that's left. And why should we pay him 6 million per season when he's not even taking care of the managerial basics ?
Fcuk sake. This after wasting 8 months..
They sanctioned the deal because they backed Ferguson in his pursuits and look at his spending previously. They give a transfer budget they think is fair and Ferguson can spend it how he wishes.
I reject the notion they will spend the money needed and in doing so compete with City and Chelsea to try their best to win the title. They will employ a manager who is an over achiever and give him the task of top four, in doing this such a manager will probably mount, consistently, a title challenge.
I wish they would spend £70m - £100m on transfers each and every season but I can't see them being able to justify that. They can justify a summer or two of spending big because of how small previous summers have been therefore that would serve to balance the books regarding funds available for transfers.
The RVP example is ridiculous when you look at the net spend. As any business they budget and Ferguson had a budget, in fact, he hardly spent in their first 5 or 6 seasons. In the last three he did, they do not tell him who he can and cannot spend the money on. They give him a budget and he decided 24m for RVP was a good deal, if you don't think so then so be it. Even the glazers would have seen it as a bargain, any business owner knows they must ensure adequate funding to ensure the business continues to evolves. There are other challengers for top four therefore even to achieve that requires spending and Ferguson really didn't spend much.
I also reject your opinion, as per the last paragraph, the Glazers tell Ferguson who he can and cannot spend money on. I am of the opinion he is giving a finite transfer fund and measurable objective to accomplish, he then can spend the funds provided as he wishes. The need to sanction a deal is merely to ensure he does not spend ridiculously (e.g. 100m for Bale) but otherwise they have no desire to tell him whether RVP is or is not needed. They also understand underspending in some seasons will likely mean overspending in others and such will balance out.
You also contradict yourself, you suggest there was no need to spend on superstars but with Ferguson's leaving that has changed but then you also stress the Glazers desire to spend on superstars like RVP. They let Ferguson do as he wished with the money, he wasn't going to spend when there was no need to knowing he could then ask for more in future seasons, where there was a need to.
I would like it to be so they will compete with City and Chelsea in future seasons financially because they think it will lead to more profit however I doubt this to be so. I think it makes more business sense to provide a budget capable of consistently getting top four and fairly task the manager with such however by employing an over-achiever, that manager will probably mount title challenges. That manager won't however get the sack for not winning the title.
Commercial sponsors don't sponsor winners specifically, they sponsor the biggest and most respected brands. They won't drop United after 4 or 5 poor seasons provided United remain a highly reputable and respected brand. I don't agree with the Arsenal comparison because their brand does not have the reputation as United but had it so then I doubt Nike would drop them. In mixed martial arts, fighters that don't win all the time but always come to fight in an entertaining way can earn a lot of money from sponsors because of their following. The sponsor would rather sponsor a fighter that isn't a winner but with a larger following than a fighter that is a winner but (probably because fans find him boring) a weaker following.
I firmly believe if United can maintain the strength of their brand then sponsors won't drop them. 10 or more seasons down the line the Glazers would have probably steadily reduced their stake in the club, it's going to take something like that time frame at least for United to no longer be a strong brand providing they can get top four consistently.
So small time.Fergie would never write that.
Telling the fans to make noise when the opponent is time-wasting. fecking hell 
Moyes
Such a heroic achievement it would be taking down the mighty Olympiakos!
Such a heroic achievement it would be taking down the mighty Olympiakos!
I'm not saying he will. I merely pointed out he should and the board upon investigating his failures should expect him to get a world class, experienced assistant. Furthermore, should he, then I will be content if he doesn't get the sack, although I'd rather he does.
If Moyes doesn't think he needs experienced coaches to help him then I'm not sure we will see improvement next season. Furthermore, I can't see how the board could trust such inexperienced coaches for another season either.
I'm not really sure what he said was wrong. He didn't need to but I don't think its that bad.
Aye. With the Glazers watching over tonight, he'll be aiming high.Moyes
Such a heroic achievement it would be taking down the mighty Olympiakos!
Be wishful. I don't think they'd be discussing anything like getting rid of him just before the game.
We have developed such an underdog mentality.
Ah it's pretty small time....I'm shocked he wrote it haha
I reject the notion a top class assistant is a top class manager. So not, we shouldn't just make him the manager.
A master tactician could work wonders when combined with a master manager (so a leader, motivator and final decision maker). Ferguson benefitted from top coaches and assistants because tactically they saw things he didn't and coaching wise could show players things he couldn't.
Notice how always the coach and assistant were talking to Ferguson, he took in their expertise and then made a final decision because that's what a great manager does. He is a great decision maker.
I never said Moyes should hire Queiroz specifically (or never mean't to, at least) but somebody like Queiroz, a world class assistant manager that is experienced and brilliant tactically.
Carlos was the mastermind behind United's tactics when he arrived, he changed things (especially for Europe) and Ferguson let him. You suggest it is the job of the manager to be the great coach and great tactician but I think it is to be a great leader and great decision maker however to also delegate areas where others excel more.
Also, I don't think anybody reads my posts because I have about a million times stated he should be sacked but realistically he might not be therefore I've offered an alternative solution. That's a lot better than most on here who say he should be sacked and then upon my challenge, what if he isn't, they have nothing to say.
People forget the change one assistant had on United:
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2005/sep/21/newsstory.sport4
http://the4thofficial.co.uk/2012/06/07/uniteds-tactical-decline-since-carlos-quieroz/
I don't think many people thought we'd be winning trophies this season. Most would have been happy with either being in the race or at least in the top 4. I understand that Moyes was brought in for the long term vision, but you still need short term plans to get to that long term plan. In the short term he has been woeful. Completely changing the way United plays may in fact be his long term plan, but he's done nothing to show it. If anything, he's made it far more one dimensional and taken out the ruthlessness and efficiency we had under SAF the last couple of years.
I've never understood this notion that he can only be judged when it's 'his' team. Part of managing/leading is making the most out of what you have available. Moyes has countless times said he needed to look at what he has. He's had that time and things have been getting worse and worse. Based on how he has handled the players at his disposal I see no reason to assume he'd be up to the task of building a whole new team, or at least getting them to the level we've come to expect at United.
There have to be some other options. Liverpool have shown you can actually pick a good manager if you work at it (rather than take someone because he's Scottish).
I'm really not keen on Fergie returning. Both because he ended well and I don't want to tarnish it, and because while he will improve things, we really need to go forward in terms of the way we play. And he's unlikely to do so.
It just screams of "what am I doing here?!". It shouldn't matter if Olympiacos waste time - United should be able to smash them at Old Trafford regardless. Besides, the fans at Old Trafford has been a part of way more European games than he has, so lecturing them on how to behave is also a bit odd.
The Glazers are there tonight........
I did say sack Moyes. I also said if the board wish to keep him it should only be on the grounds he is willing to stop being a jack of all trades and actually try to master being a manager and so delegate far more, if he refuses then they have no reason at all to keep him on. They should sack him but for whatever reason they might want him to work out and might want to help him.
I just can't see how much he did at Everton working at a club that has so many games. Look how quickly and how often the games came for United t his season, the manager should manage and rely on the coach and assistant to take training and so observe. A director of football can work with a head coach because the former takes on many duties however if Moyes is here to only be a coach then there are many better than him. I can only imagine Ferguson felt he could evolve into a strong manager and that's why he chose him.
Pochettino would be a great one for us I think and I think he is gettable. Give him time to implement his style on us and reap the rewards of it.
Yeah, but those assistants were additions. Quieroz made us tactically very defensive in a few matches but overall we were looking to play good, exciting, "Fergie" football. The question was how, but the spirit of the manager was still there. We're talking here about bringing an assistant who won't just help sharpen the way the manager wants to play, but instill a totally different system and brand of football.
Of course I don't think every assistant is a good manager. Carlos, McLaren and Kiddo are proof of that. But if our manager needs THAT much help, he shouldn't be our manager.
I'll certainly live with it. At least he'll be someone who we pick based on his style of football.
Pochettino gettable
You'd think he was Guardiola.
You'd think he was Guardiola.
Focus on time wasting.....ok Moyes.
fecking hell
fecking hell
I can see it certainly did not need to be said. Asking for a big atmosphere is normal, all managers of all teams do it and the time wasting one is an odd thing to highlight. But again, I don't really think its that big a deal for him to say. I have not read the program so if thats the worst he's said then its OK, if he continued his theme of 'we'll try, make it difficult' etc then I have a problem.
Rooney taking it upon himself to elminate the problem. Well in Wayne, atleast that 300k is doing some good.
I agree, the club shouldn't reward failure.
Ferguson went against his philosophy for European games and he hired Queiroz because he couldn't do it himself. It wasn't Fergie football, the flanks were not anywhere near as vital as they were prior to Queiroz and the formation was a change from 4411 / 442.
And the spirit of the manager as you say was there, that is the job of the manager (to be the leader). The tactician is to help change the way the team plays, this is what I am saying. Queiroz changed our system but ferguson was still the leader, Ferguson was reliant on coaches like Meulensteen to show players to do things with the ball he couldn't and like Qeurioz to prepare us tactically in games he felt he was less effective. It is no coincidence we went on our best run in Europe with Queiroz's philosophy.
The job of the manager is to delegate those areas and to focus on managing. In the case of Moyes he has taken on too much therefore if he wants to be a manager at the very top level he needs to delegate far more and one area is tactics. How can he prepare us for a game on saturday and then another on wednesday when he is trying to do a million other things?
I would say any manager needs a strong team beside him and currently Moyes' team seems to lack experience and it is costing us. I do agree he shouldn't be our manager however if the board insist on keeping him then I hope he realises the importance of experienced and highly skilled coaching staff. If he feels he is still learning how to break down the small teams that park the bus at old trafford then he needs help, I agree if such is the case he shouldn't be our manager but clearly Ferguson thinks he can learn. At the very least, he should bring in somebody that knows how to do this until he learns.
We both want him sacked tomorrow whether we win or lose today, especially if we lose. However, I do think it is realistic the board may give him more time therefore I'm just pointing out a few things that could help him succeed next season.
Rooney taking it upon himself to elminate the problem. Well in Wayne, atleast that 300k is doing some good.
Vidic is thinking about stamping his leg but it looks like he pulls out last minute. And RVP getting excited at the prospect of Van Gaal replacing the problem.
@Empire
I agree that he has taken too much on himself, but everything I've seen from him screams that he's just not right for the job, not that we need to pamper him with quality people to make him look good.
Before accepting the need to hire skilled coaches, he needs to accept the need to play a totally different brand of football. Can he do that?
I agree that he has taken too much on himself, but everything I've seen from him screams that he's just not right for the job, not that we need to pamper him with quality people to make him look good.
Before accepting the need to hire skilled coaches, he needs to accept the need to play a totally different brand of football. Can he do that?
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