God no. But it's more than likely he'll have some serious input into the next manager.
Moyes So Far!
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it's why you have a search committee and panel decide these things
If the accountant chooses Klopp and the greatest manager ever chooses Moyes, then obviously yes.
Exactly. Moyes's selection reeks of an archaic idea that the great leader, in his autumn years reaches down and anoints his successor. Moyes himself characterizes his appointment as such--he's summoned to Fergie's home and offered the baton of leadership. All very medieval.
Woodward comes from a successful corporate background. I suspect, given his lack of a footballing background that he was OK with letting Fergie choose his replacement. After all-why not? Fergie clearly knows his stuff and so would be expected to make the right choice. But-that was then, this is now. Woodward's job is to manage United such that it maximizes profits for the Glazers (and the other owners, BTW)
Therefore, I think it's likely that Woodward will implement a formal executive search process that would be used in any other corporate context--where candidates are identified, a short list is made and those on the short list are asked in for interviews in which they must provide their vision for United and the specific steps they would take to achieve that vision. Afterall-recent university graduates must go through an interview process--why not United's manager?
I've seen some posters argue that Moyes should be required to participate in a process over the summer to save his job. That, to me is a mistake as it precludes any better qualified candidate to be considered for the position.
So-do I trust Woodward, on his own to sit on top of the mountain and divine the best replacement for Moyes? No--but that's not how it will transpire. I do trust Woodward to carry out a competent process to select Moyes's replacement.
I think hindsight may prove you right on this case, but there is an even bigger flaw in allowing non football people to make big calls on football matters with zero insight or knowledge in the game.
Being financially successful does not equate to footballing knowledge. I suppose the same can be said for footballers who don't make good coaches/managers, but SAF is not some random journeyman coach who had a few good years.
People are presuming that SAF chose Moyes out of some misguided principle or wearing rose tinted glasses. They are also suggesting that SAF is grudgingly supporting DM because he doesn't want to admit he is wrong. Based on his career, SAF was shown to be more ruthless then any other manager and on this alone it is more reasonable to assume that SAF just feels that DM needs more time to grow into the job, like a player struggling to find their feet at a new club.
For some people to suggest that SAF should have no input on a potential successor is simply stupid. There is no other way to look at it. I am not saying that he should have the final say, but to not even confer with him on a replacement would be mind-numbingly thick . .
I'd let Fergie pick the next manager under the condition that they couldn't be British. Take that bias away from him and I'm sure he'd make the right call.
If Ferguson has learned from the Moyes mistake then he should be involved in the process of appointing Moyes' successor. There will surely be an interview process, and I see no harm in Ferguson being involved.
Hopefully he's not involved in that decision.
He will get rid of a few very good players in the Summer too, I am pretty sure of that - Kagawa, Nani and Hernandez seem nailed on to go. The damage he will do here in the next 2-3 years will be staggering.
Who's suggesting Fergie shouldn't participate in whatever process is used to select Moyes's replacement? The point is that he apparently was the ONLY decider-and that was a flawed "process." I think we're having a violent agreement here.
If we stick by him we are going to do a Liverpool, without doubt. The warning signs are now flashing, fifty-foot high neon lights.
Everyone can see it except for a deluded few. Unfortunately for us, Fergie and Charlton seem to be among them.
Agreed, the mere thought that he should have a summer to "sell his vision" just emphasises how crazy a hiring process it was. We really did just have blind faith in Fergie's will. Hopefully this summer is something of an enlightenment!
A few posters suggested SAF shouldn't have any input going forward which is quite ridiculous.
SAF may very well of had the biggest input into DM, but would the Glazers of not considered any alternative?
I'm not so sure that Jose wasn't considered, but his relationships with previous employers and the image that the club is trying to portray may of made that a non starter.
I also think there is another dynamic or potential advantage that DM would of had in the eyes of the Glazers. If I remember correctly the club was offered more money to be sponsored by a gambling (think it was a gambling) company and they actually gave sponsorship to a smaller tender (Chevrolet?). This suggests that club image is a factor in choosing a manager. A British manager who does not cause ripples publically or privately ticks that box.
Also gives a suggestion of stability (Moyes was never going to personally leave within the 3 years an Anchelloti/Jose would give you).
The fact that he was endorsed by SAF would of meant that they could of felt confident that he would also provide continued success in the long run.
People keep thinking that success is the only thing that matters to be a successful club, but United have shown this isn't necessarily the case. Being there or thereabouts (with sporadic success) most seasons was evidently more important to the Glazers then getting in Jose (who would of come in and who would of gotten instant success) who is a firecracker that could damage the image of the club.
If we get knocked out of the CL by olympiakos just sack him the following morning, the timing would be right after another awful result against inferior opposition and out of all competitions our season would be effectively over.
Luckily, Gerrard hit the post with his last penalty on Sunday.
I wouldn't say it was blind faith to trust SAF judgement on this matter, as that suggests he had no quantifiable quality to warrant such a powerful role in choosing his successor. As KeninDC put it, perhaps it would of been more prudent to broaden the parameters of the selection process but I think that it certainly wasn't "blind" faith.
While SAF may still make a strong defence of DM I really don't see the Glazers keeping DM and allowing him to spend 100m+ in the summer if they feel there is no reasonable signs that things will improve.
I was probably wrong to put "we" there then, but speaking from my personal views when it happened, I really was putting my blind faith in Fergie's ability to choose. No lie, after Fergie's retirement was announced I texted a mate saying "if it's Moyes, I'm jumping off the nearest bridge". When it happened and with all the rationalising I came to accept it, and it was pretty much centred around the idea that Fergie wouldn't make such a big mistake. Since I like to consider myself a rationalist who opinions are evidence-based, twas a personal low point!
Glad you didn't jump-for the sake of your loved ones.
A serious question: was anybody excited about the Moyes appointment? I was very underwhelmed when Moyes was announced, and I've seen nothing to change my mind about him: he's a decent manager for a mid-table club where there are limited expectations.
I think you are being harsh even on yourself. Only in hindsight does it appear that it may end up being one of the few big footballing mistakes that SAF has ever made in his life. I think it was calculated faith that may end up not working out . .
Think of Forlan or Veron and their impact at OT in comparison to their impact in Spain and Italy (when Italy was the top league). Both were able to showcase superb talent, but were incapable of extending that talent to United for one reason or another. It happens. IF DM fails at United, it doesn't mean he never had the potential to be a top manager, like players who for some reason just cannot perform to their best at certain clubs , perhaps DM is just not able to flourish under the intense scrutiny/pressure of the position.
I was curious about the Caf's reaction to Moyes's appointment (before my time as a member) and found the following thread:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/excitement.370374/
It's amazing how prescient some of the posts are-as many Caf members suggested that Moyes's brand of football left something to be desired. I understand that many got on board once he was hired--but his performance this year was, for some, not unexpected.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/excitement.370374/
It's amazing how prescient some of the posts are-as many Caf members suggested that Moyes's brand of football left something to be desired. I understand that many got on board once he was hired--but his performance this year was, for some, not unexpected.
I was still numb after SAF announcement. I was most definitely underwhelmed, but I understood the club strategy . .
I'm not sure what it is that SAF saw in DM, but I don't think I would subscribe to some of the sh*t written about its because he's British or because SAF was out of touch with modern day football. There is no real way of saying how much time is enough and while I don't think much can be done in a year , I understand that fans are just shocked at how far things have collapsed.
Lets just play the devils advocate for one second and instead of presuming all the negative stuff about Moyes, lets for one second take an alternative view:
SAF sees talents in Moyes that would be perfect to continue on a stable legacy at the club, but knows he is unproven. The one big question is, can Moyes grow into the role? Team performances and results tell a completely different story to the way he has begun the process of changing the way the team is trained, managed and run.
Moyes confidence and belief is waning because of the pressure of replacing SAF. SAF has regular meetings with DM's and knows that if he can just catch a break, just get to the summer to regroup, DM will be stronger for the horror first season. Surely DM can find that belief inside of him and turn things around, he has the ability, he just needs to make some big decisions and some time . . But how long will he be given ???
Its not beyond the realms of possibility that SAF is gambling that DM will find his feet and be stronger for the disaster that this season has dished out. . It could be completely wrong, but its certainly a more plausible reality then the one of SAF just not wanting to admit he was wrong . .
1) My point about a manager picking his successor isnt about hindsight, it's out of principle. How often does a situation like that arise and how often has it worked out well? It may very well be the case SAF chose out of some musguided principle but that's either here nor there.
2) It was also shown that SAF pandered to players who arguably needed to be let go to allow some new blood to come in. It's reasonable to feel that SAF thinks DM needs more time but it's also reasonable to think his stubbornness can get the best of him sometimes.
3) He should have input but dont think Glazers too happy with the manager he recommended to take over from him. As i said to someone else, we need a search committee and panel, interview process, all of the normal things you do when bringing someone in. What Fergie did we, imo, cannot allow to happen again.
I couldn't quite believe David Moyes was going to be our manger. After the complete bemusement regarding this from when his name cropped up in the last few years till his appointment, I then begun to try and convince myself of the positives and became somewhat optimistic. He didn't let that last too long though.
What other threads were started when Moyes was first given the job? I want to see how I reacted then, against how I think of him now.
agree with that last sentence assuming we sack moyes. people need to know man united hasn always given their managers time. Mcguinness and o'farrell got 18 months
I still remember my response...."Well, at least our players will be fit I suppose"
Here's probably the go-to thread for that, in case you hadn't seen it - https://www.redcafe.net/threads/your-preference-for-the-next-manager.370323/
I was (and remain) in the Klopp camp, but Mourinho was obviously the runaway choice.
It was more that I managed to ignore what I'd firmly decided upon previously (that he didn't have the right personality to succeed a living legend). I thought his football was uninspiring and didn't think he'd done enough previously to merit such a huge job. I'd managed to suspend those views pretty much until after the Liverpool match, when the weights came crashing down from my eyes. It was definitely a weird situation though, we'll never see it's like again I don't think.
@Drummer-I like you. Your posts give me food for thought. I agree that Fergie chose Moyes for one reason only: because he genuinely thought Moyes was the best person for the job. Nothing to do with Moyes's nationality or some Machiavellian plan to look good after Moyes failed. And yes, your alternative scenario makes sense-that Fergie, after his own near-death experience at United sees value in sticking it out with Moyes during this bad patch. I never question Fergie's motives.
It's just...Fergie could have got it wrong. I think we previously talked about sample size--that I've seen enough this year to conclude that Moyes is not the guy. Particularly since Moyes was a head-scratcher to begin with. Fergie may not be convinced that Moyes is the wrong guy. If that's the case Moyes will be around for a while.
It was the way Liverpool and even Tottenham fans walked around with smirks on their faces when the news came out.
They all knew, we all knew.
But then we thought, nah it'll be alright, he can't possibly take us lower than 3rd.
They all knew, we all knew.
But then we thought, nah it'll be alright, he can't possibly take us lower than 3rd.
I can't find any evidence of my posts when Moyes first started, other than this thread. Where else can I look?
@Ubik-Thanks. Interesting that Moyes was so far down the list. Someone asked if the Caf should be placed in charge for the rest of the season-maybe not the craziest idea
God, were we wrong.
Regarding the Woodward discussion,
There's no perfect way to choose a manager or a perfect CEO to choose one. It's hit and miss. But just like being a great footballer doesn't mean you'll be a great manager, being a great manager doesn't mean you'll be a great director or be able to choose a new manager well. It's a new world and funnily enough, Fergie might actually have been TOO involved in the game, with personal favourites, etc.. A cold, hard calculation by people who were not football managers may well have led to a better result.
There's no perfect way to choose a manager or a perfect CEO to choose one. It's hit and miss. But just like being a great footballer doesn't mean you'll be a great manager, being a great manager doesn't mean you'll be a great director or be able to choose a new manager well. It's a new world and funnily enough, Fergie might actually have been TOO involved in the game, with personal favourites, etc.. A cold, hard calculation by people who were not football managers may well have led to a better result.
This is not true is it, from Red Issue.
http://www.givemesport.com/443127-manchester-united-fanzine-ferguson-considering-shock-return
http://www.givemesport.com/443127-manchester-united-fanzine-ferguson-considering-shock-return
My Liverpool supporting mate on the appointment at the time it was announced;
"You watch, he'll just about keep you in the top 4 but you'll be calling for Sir Giggsalot to come rescue you when the shit hits the fan..He's is a an awful manager and I've no idea why he gets so much credit for the job he has done with Everton"
He has never rated Moyes
Would suggest you buy the latest issue and read it in context - i can tell you the link you have posted is not what is said in the issue.
yep. immediately it was announced i got texts and laughs in my direction from oppo fans. all of them said he's out of his depth at united even before he set foot into OT.tried to be bullish at the time but deep down i knew they were right
So-if so many Caf members, at the time of Moyes's appointment thought he was the wrong guy-the only thing that surprises me is that his support lasted through the Olympiacos game. It's not like Moyes really did much to inspire confidence at any point in the season up to that point.
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