Moyes So Far!

[Getsme]

My opinion is that SAF has more knowledge of football then the entire members of this site. It's not the opinion you like, but it is a personal opinion none the less.

That's not your opinion it's fact, he probably knows more about football than most people in the World let alone Redcafe, that doesn't mean he can't make mistakes, he's made plenty before.
How about debating with your own views on how the teams seasons went. Why you think he needs to rebuild, what he's done right or wrong this season. What you've seen that give you belief he's the man for the job. I've had many debates on here about Moyes with @Tomalonge which I have enjoyed because he is able to form his own opinions, and give reasons why Moyes should stay or go.

That aside, I've given plenty of reasons why I still support moyes besides the fact that SAF still supports him.

Yet all I see is I trust SAF more than people on an Internet forum, you're getting boring now. Everyone knows Fergie is a great man with exceptional knowledge of football. We get it, we all knew it before you came along.

Some people who want moyes out just don't want to discuss this topic, they only want to ridicule anybody with a differant view.

Rubbish, there is plenty of debate on here, it's what a forums about, debate. There are also plenty of Moyes supporters who are able to express their own views, maybe you should try it a bit more.

 

[Tomalonge]

Saf could of been wrong

:O

Consider my words eaten.

 

[Drummer]

That's not your opinion it's fact, he probably knows more about football than most people in the World let alone Redcafe, that doesn't mean he can't make mistakes, he's made plenty before.
How about debating with your own views on how the teams seasons went. Why you think he needs to rebuild, what he's done right or wrong this season. What you've seen that give you belief he's the man for the job. I've had many debates on here about Moyes with @Tomalonge which I have enjoyed because he is able to form his own opinions, and give reasons why Moyes should stay or go.


Yet all I see is I trust SAF more than people on an Internet forum, you're getting boring now. Everyone knows Fergie is a great man with exceptional knowledge of football. We get it, we all knew it before you came along.


Rubbish, there is plenty of debate on here, it's what a forums about, debate. There are also plenty of Moyes supporters who are able to express their own views, maybe you should try it a bit more.

I'm not trying to entertain anybody but I haven't seen too much objective debate at all in these forums, don't pretend that its been full of highly insightful discussions!

My own personal reasons why Moyes should be given longer time have been stated several times. Defaulting to SAF is a quicker way then having to debate the merits of Moyes getting more time with certain posters who are incapable of debate - either antagonise or ignore any valid points. .

Why do I think Moyes deserves a summer of signings/outgoings and another season with which to turn things around?

1. He didn't have experience at this level joining the job, now he has one year experience, there is a good chance he will improve
2. We haven't seen the best of Moyes. Most people correctly point out that he looks out of his depth, this means he hasn't brought his A- Game. I refer to point 1, where I hope whatever SAF saw in him starts bearing fruit next season which suggests that Moyes can most definitely improve.
3. I don't completely blame Moyes for not being able to get the most out of this squad of players. I think this club has been run completely different to 99% of the clubs around the world with a culture that is steeped in SAF. As such I don't think its anyway comparable to the likes of City/Chelsea or Madrid where the manager isn't really that important to the players who expect a new one every other season. Mancini and di Matteo aren't considered world class managers yet both have managed a team to EPL and a champions league title!
4. There are managers who may of come in and performed a smoother transition but most of these don't tend to stay around too long. I think if the clubs gamble comes off (Moyes succeeds), we could have another 20 years of sustained success. If it fails we get in a top name coach and throw money at the problem. I don't see United being away from the top of the table either way, so I think its a calculated gamble worth pursuing.
5. Leading on from this If we sign 4 big name signings and it still doesn't work, if we bring in a big name manager to replace Moyes they shouldn't have a problem with a stronger squad! They also wont have the same pressure that Moyes has in directly replacing SAF which is a bonus .
6. As a small bonus, giving Moyes 2 years also sends out a message that United will not be unsettled easily and will give managers time to succeed. Also sends a message of stability to the players (United wont get caught up in managerial merry go round which means next manager may get more out of players quickly if they think he wont be sacked on a whim!).
7. Moyes is trying to change things around and some players are clearly not happy. Some of the players have never played for another manager, which in this day and age is rare , so its understandable that they would struggle to adapt to a new managers techniques. Even Rio got unsettled because of the way Moyes announced his teamsheet FFS so its not hard to imagine that even senior members of the squad are a little bit sensitive to even the smallest change!
8. Moyes tried to give every player a season to show him what they are worth and if they will perform for him. I think this was a wise decision as one can only imagine what would of been said if he made wholesale changes last summer and they were performing like they are now. This summer I will be very interested to see who comes in and who goes.
9. Leading on from point 6, I think Moyes has a superb opportunity to properly stamp down his authority on the squad by letting go of players who are not performing or undermining him.
10. I want to see if Moyes can show us whatever it was that SAF saw in him. Contrary to popular opinion I know that SAF gets things wrong, but I also know that SAF has made calculated gambles in the past that paid off - Cantona (trouble), selling ince/kanchelskis/hughes the same season and replacing them with youngsters, selling our leading striker ruud , sticking with De Gea . .
11. There is no pain in change, there is only pain in resisting change. Its clear some of the players are resisting the changes that Moyes is trying and some of the fans are not prepared to wait and see how things pan out if Moyes gets an opportunity to get his teeth into the squad in the summer. I accept that its not the norm in football, but I personally think that the fickle nature of the sport is the problem, not those who try to buck the trend by trying out alternative strategys.
12. I genuinely think that some of the players have been in shock since SAF left. Moyes job is now to show the confidence (that I don't think we have seen) in his own ability by making big calls in big games and in summer. Next season the "fergie hangover" should be long gone and hopefully the players and manager can let loose.
13. A fans opinion is always flawed, bias and based on their limited perspective. I personally try to take the emotion out of most of my decisions in life and accept that I don't always know whats best for a team (that's why I default to SAF in this case). It was a lesson I learned when I was at a United v Liverpool game a few seasons back at old Trafford (the one where Mascherano talked himself into a red!). I was there with a Liverpool fan who constantly moaned about Kuyt starting for Liverpool, asking what Rafa saw in him. After that game he couldn't believe the workrate that Kuyt put in and actually went as far as to say that he was Liverpools best player in the game by a mile. The highlights didn't reflect this (nor did live tv from talking to other pool fans).

None of this is saying that Moyes will succeed, but I believe it certainly improves his chances of success, with only a limited gamble on Uniteds behalf.

 

[Shimo]

There is no pain in change, there is only pain in resisting change. Its clear some of the players are resisting the changes that Moyes is trying and some of the fans are not prepared to wait and see how things pan out if Moyes gets an opportunity to get his teeth into the squad in the summer. I accept that its not the norm in football, but I personally think that the fickle nature of the sport is the problem, not those who try to buck the trend by trying out alternative strategys.

Interesting list of points but, particularly curious as to how you arrived at this one. Seeing that you are objective and have taken emotion out of the equation - how is it clear that some players are resisting change? There's been Rio teamsheet incident and the RVP words after Olympiakos disaster which maybe described as resisting change but, those are 2 in a whole season of mediocrity from all but, a few. So I am more curious as to what changes do you see Moyes making as to me so far to me he seems intent on copying everything SAF did both in terms of player selection and tactics on the field without having the motivational ability to raise the players games. So what are these changes that some players are resistant to?

 

[gooDevil]

Actually it makes more sense to trust the judgement of SAF then it does anybody on this forum.

He sees the same football we do, but has a greater insight into why moyes should be given more time.

This is conveniently ignored by the moyes out brigade. Saying he is infallible doesn't change the fact that he has more qualifications and knowledge then all the fans combined. He may be proven wrong and moyes may still fail but people who are trusting the judgment of SAF as to how long moyes should be given have a more credible explanation for supporting moyes then those who use their unqualified opinions to debate the topic.

Hear, hear.

 

[Rednotdead]

Interesting list of points but, particularly curious as to how you arrived at this one. Seeing that you are objective and have taken emotion out of the equation - how is it clear that some players are resisting change? There's been Rio teamsheet incident and the RVP words after Olympiakos disaster which maybe described as resisting change but, those are 2 in a whole season of mediocrity from all but, a few. So I am more curious as to what changes do you see Moyes making as to me so far to me he seems intent on copying everything SAF did both in terms of player selection and tactics on the field without having the motivational ability to raise the players games. So what are these changes that some players are resistant to?

The loss of Fergie and the appointment of anyone else?

 

[Drummer]

Interesting list of points but, particularly curious as to how you arrived at this one. Seeing that you are objective and have taken emotion out of the equation - how is it clear that some players are resisting change? There's been Rio teamsheet incident and the RVP words after Olympiakos disaster which maybe described as resisting change but, those are 2 in a whole season of mediocrity from all but, a few. So I am more curious as to what changes do you see Moyes making as to me so far to me he seems intent on copying everything SAF did both in terms of player selection and tactics on the field without having the motivational ability to raise the players games. So what are these changes that some players are resistant to?

As somebody stated, the loss of SAF is a change that the entire club is struggling to deal with. . 26 years doing everything like clockwork with one mans instructions. Losing Gill at the same time (who would of known exactly how things need to be done in the transfer market) has only further unsettled things.

Then you have players who would of joined or grown up at the club looking forward to the guaranteed success playing under SAF brings. The uncertainty that Moyes appointment brought couldn't of been easy to take and I would consider it crazy if it didn't take them time to come onside with what Moyes is trying to do.

People keep talking about how poorly united have looked in games and actually refer to Moyes tactics ("how many crosses can United do in one game") as an issue they have with the changes hes made.

That aside, just because Rio and RVP are the only dissenting voices doesn't mean there aren't others struggling with the changes.I remember when the Saipan incident happened with Roy Keane, the main player to speak publically was Niall Quinn on behalf of the team. But this was only half the story. A lot of the team actually felt Keane was right about a lot of the things he had said, but the more senior members made sure that the public story was that they were all united behind the manager. While it hasn't been quite as aggressive, there is a chance that the likes of Rio and RVP are heavily resistant to change and that they are effecting other players negatively (whether these players agree with them or not).

Then theres the bringing in of his own backroom staff, which most believe was the right call (bring in your own people who you trust). Its not that the staff already there weren't good enough, but Moyes knows who he works well with and there is no guarantee that he didn't offer existing staff an alternative role at the club they just didn't want.

The change of Rooney - RVP was bought to show Rooney that hes not our No 1 and to downgrade his importance. Now Rooney has been made our No 1 man and its certainly going to effect the potential performances of RVP (particularly after Matas arrival) , particularly if the team is no longer built around him.

Then there is the change from rivals. Even average teams are having a go at United when they wouldn't in the past and this is simply because the myth of SAF is gone and teams smell blood. Its a snowball effect and the team is struggling to up its game to compensate for the extra effort being put in against them. There is also a clear change in refs who have gone the exact opposite and give united less, particularly in 50/50 incidents whether at OT or away.

None of this absolves Moyes, but the changes at the club and even in the way rivals attack us has made this an extremely difficult season for the entire club. Players would be understandably unsettled and unsure how things will pan out. The manager would be understandably lacking in confidence (IMO) while trying to find his feet and this has transferred itself to the team performances.

I may be wrong, but I believe after a years experience of hell Moyes will learn everything he could possibly wish to learn at the club and it will either make him or break him. I just want to see if he can find his feet, take control of the squad and push on and I don't feel its a huge gamble for the long term stability of the club.

 

[Amir]

The loss of Fergie and the appointment of anyone else?

For a few of our players the loss of the manager is obviously a big deal after so many years. But many of our players have not had Fergie as manager for 6-8-10 years. Almost all of our players have worked for other managers in different clubs, some of them on loan, and have obviously been working with others coaches for their national teams. I don't think it's the great shock that people think it may be.

Maybe it's not so much the loss of Fergie but the appointment of a new man. Or the man himself. Just a possibility.

 

[Stack]

For a few of our players the loss of the manager is obviously a big deal after so many years. But many of our players have not had Fergie as manager for 6-8-10 years. Almost all of our players have worked for other managers in different clubs, some of them on loan, and have obviously been working with others coaches for their national teams. I don't think it's the great shock that people think it may be.

Maybe it's not so much the loss of Fergie but the appointment of a new man. Or the man himself. Just a possibility.

Maybe its not a shock but its certainly a different working environment for the players. The training drills will all be new, the passing sequences practiced will all be new. With those come new body language signals to get used to and make intuitive. New expectations from the coach and coaches across a broad range of things. Not a shock to the system but its change. And its only 1 of a number of issues that are individually relatively small but combined become a bigger problem to the season.

 

[Amir]

Maybe its not a shock but its certainly a different working environment for the players. The training drills will all be new, the passing sequences practiced will all be new. With those come new body language signals to get used to and make intuitive. New expectations from the coach and coaches across a broad range of things. Not a shock to the system but its change. And its only 1 of a number of issues that are individually relatively small but combined become a bigger problem to the season.

A change that teams all over the world go through regularly without such results. A change that a lot of our players have gone through when they came to United. I just don't see the idea of the change itself as a good enough excuse.

 

[Sultan]

Surely with a new manager coming in players should not suffer as a consequence in doing the basics correctly? I mean how to pass, make space, defend, or cross a ball? Which has been an issue with a lot of our play this season.

 

[Sultan]

A change that teams all over the world go through regularly without such results. A change that a lot of our players have gone through when they came to United. I just don't see the idea of the change itself as a good enough excuse.

Absolutely!

 

[Brophs]

Surely with a new manager coming in players should not suffer as a consequence in doing the basics correctly? I mean how to pass, make space, defend, or cross a ball? Which has been an issue with a lot of our play this season.

To me it looks like the confidence and belief is completely shot. Which is a worry, as the longer it goes on, the less likely you are to turn it around. The summer might reset things and have us come at next season fresh and confident, but I think without several new players who can hopefully rejuvenate things it could be more of the same.

 

[Getsme]

A change that teams all over the world go through regularly without such results. A change that a lot of our players have gone through when they came to United. I just don't see the idea of the change itself as a good enough excuse.

I agree in principal with your post, however the change in management would have a big impact on the players.They have went from being managed by one of the best managers in the world, if not the best manager ever, who has won everything there is to win over nearly three decades, to David Moyes who has won the division 2 title with Preston.
It's like when a club signs a World class player, it fills the team with confidence, likewise signing average players can have the oppisate effect. The same can be said for managers.
It didn't help with the way he introduced himself to the squad with some odd comments and weird transfer dealings, he didn't exactly build confidence or cover himself in glory over the summer.

 

[marjen]

To me it looks like the confidence and belief is completely shot. Which is a worry, as the longer it goes on, the less likely you are to turn it around. The summer might reset things and have us come at next season fresh and confident, but I think without several new players who can hopefully rejuvenate things it could be more of the same.

I think without a new manager we'll be looking at the same, possibly a slight improvement but no chance in hell we'll challenge for any honours.

 

[Getsme]

T, but I think without several new players who can hopefully rejuvenate things it could be more of the same.

Or worse, it all depends on who we buy, when we buy them and who we sell. If he sells before he buys we could be in a whole world of trouble.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Surely with a new manager coming in players should not suffer as a consequence in doing the basics correctly? I mean how to pass, make space, defend, or cross a ball? Which has been an issue with a lot of our play this season.

Well there's no other plausible explanation, is there? It's not as though the entire squad suffered simultaneous traumatic brain injuries impairing their coordination, balance and decision-making.

When a footballler is playing without confidence and belief their whole game falls apart. Their touch suffers, they misplace simple passes, become hesitant in the tackle, don't take any risks and generally look like half the player that they usually are. A whole team afflicted with this same psychological crisis is by far the most obvious explanation for the dire displays we've seen so often this season.

 

[Stack]

A change that teams all over the world go through regularly without such results. A change that a lot of our players have gone through when they came to United. I just don't see the idea of the change itself as a good enough excuse.

Change isnt the only reason for the problems, its one of a number of issues.

 

[Sultan]

To me it looks like the confidence and belief is completely shot. Which is a worry, as the longer it goes on, the less likely you are to turn it around. The summer might reset things and have us come at next season fresh and confident, but I think without several new players who can hopefully rejuvenate things it could be more of the same.

That definitely seems to be the case. The players are playing risk averse football. It has shown up with our lack of creativity over the season.

 

[Amir]

I agree in principal with your post, however the change in management would have a big impact on the players.They have went from being managed by one of the best managers in the world, if not the best manager ever, who has won everything there is to win over nearly three decades, to David Moyes who has won the division 2 title with Preston.
It's like when a club signs a World class player, it fills the team with confidence, likewise signing average players can have the oppisate effect. The same can be said for managers.
It didn't help with the way he introduced himself to the squad with some odd comments and weird transfer dealings, he didn't exactly build confidence or cover himself in glory over the summer.

Change isnt the only reason for the problems, its one of a number of issues.

Which is rather the point... The problem is not with the retirement of Fergie, or the change in itself, but the choice of his replacement...

 

[Getsme]

Which is rather the point... The problem is not with the retirement of Fergie, or the change in itself, but the choice of his replacement...

Indeed. I'm not saying there wouldn't have been issues if an experienced manager took over but I'd certainly say the transaction would have been a lot smoother.
Let's hope that Moyes has learnt from his many mistakes and will become the better manager for it, I'm not holding out much hope but it's the only thing I can think of as you why he's still in a job.

 

[Sarni]

Indeed. I'm not saying there wouldn't have been issues if an experienced manager took over but I'd certainly say the transaction would have been a lot smoother.
Let's hope that Moyes has learnt from his many mistakes and will become the better manager for it, I'm not holding out much hope but it's the only thing I can think of as you why he's still in a job.

Seriously, no one can possibly say that a drop from 1st to 6th in a year is acceptable, change or not. Any other club and he'd be gone by now, he will have cost us at least a hundred million in his first year with the lack of CL football and players he has brought. If your employee loses you a hundred million they're shown the door.

 

[Getsme]

Seriously, no one can possibly say that a drop from 1st to 6th in a year is acceptable, change or not. Any other club and he'd be gone by now, he will have cost us at least a hundred million in his first year with the lack of CL football and players he has brought. If your employee loses you a hundred million they're shown the door.

I don't believe anyone has said it's acceptable, they would be a fool to suggest that it is IMO. However it looks like the club are going to stick with him nonetheless, I have no idea why, the only reason I can think of is he has convinced the board that his vision for the club will be successful in the long run. What that is I have no idea, he's shown nothing so far that would suggest that he even has a plan.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Which is rather the point... The problem is not with the retirement of Fergie, or the change in itself, but the choice of his replacement...

It's not just any change, though. Fergie's reputation and status is far higher than almost every other manager in the history of football. Take that away and the crisis in confidence will run far deeper than most footballers would feel when he changes clubs or manager.

 

[Sarni]

I don't believe anyone has said it's acceptable, they would be a fool to suggest that it is IMO. However it looks like the club are going to stick with him nonetheless, I have no idea why, the only reason I can think of is he has convinced the board that his vision for the club will be successful in the long run. What that is I have no idea, he's shown nothing so far that would suggest that he even has a plan.

I think it's more out of principle. If we are in the exact same position in 3 years we'll still keep him and pretend we're better than Bayerns, Barcelonas and Madrid who would have sacked him by then.

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

Well there's no other plausible explanation, is there? It's not as though the entire squad suffered simultaneous traumatic brain injuries impairing their coordination, balance and decision-making.

When a footballler is playing without confidence and belief their whole game falls apart. Their touch suffers, they misplace simple passes, become hesitant in the tackle, don't take any risks and generally look like half the player that they usually are. A whole team afflicted with this same psychological crisis is by far the most obvious explanation for the dire displays we've seen so often this season.

This.

 

[Red Defence]

Well there's no other plausible explanation, is there? It's not as though the entire squad suffered simultaneous traumatic brain injuries impairing their coordination, balance and decision-making.

When a footballler is playing without confidence and belief their whole game falls apart. Their touch suffers, they misplace simple passes, become hesitant in the tackle, don't take any risks and generally look like half the player that they usually are. A whole team afflicted with this same psychological crisis is by far the most obvious explanation for the dire displays we've seen so often this season.

Do we have a sport's psychologist at United? In the past I just assumed we had one but I'm now suspecting we haven't.

Might not be a bad idea to hire one before the Olympiakos match.

 

[Amir]

It's not just any change, though. Fergie's reputation and status is far higher than almost every other manager in the history of football. Take that away and the crisis in confidence will run far deeper than most footballers would feel when he changes clubs or manager.

It's obviously a somewhat different situation, but not the extent of what we've seen this season. Quite a few of our players aren't so different to others in the world. They weren't managed by Fergie for 26 years, not 10, quite a few of them not even four of five. For players who came from overseas, the original settling in period must have been a far bigger issue. When it comes down to the squad of players, it shouldn't have been that huge a change. I'm sure even the experienced ones like Rio or Evra remember what it was like moving clubs, seeing changes is management and coaching staff.

It obviously looks huge for us fans because it's 26 years for us. It's not for the actual team we currently have.

 

[Stack]

Which is rather the point... The problem is not with the retirement of Fergie, or the change in itself, but the choice of his replacement...

You just completely missed the point and went to Moyes.
There are a number of factors, not just Moyes, not just the change from Fergie to another manager.

 

[Amir]

You just completely missed the point and went to Moyes.
There are a number of factors, not just Moyes, not just the change from Fergie to another manager.

It's the root of the issue and by far bigger than anything else.

 

[MoskvaRed]

It's the root of the issue and by far bigger than anything else.

In the absence of parallel universes, we'll never know but I tend to agree with you that, even though it was a unique situation, the change need not have been so difficult if we had appointed a ready made leading manager rather than one with potential that we hoped could rise to the challenge.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's obviously a somewhat different situation, but not the extent of what we've seen this season. Quite a few of our players aren't so different to others in the world. They weren't managed by Fergie for 26 years, not 10, quite a few of them not even four of five. For players who came from overseas, the original settling in period must have been a far bigger issue. When it comes down to the squad of players, it shouldn't have been that huge a change. I'm sure even the experienced ones like Rio or Evra remember what it was like moving clubs, seeing changes is management and coaching staff.

It obviously looks huge for us fans because it's 26 years for us. It's not for the actual team we currently have.

It's not just about how long individual players worked under Fergie. He's such a massive presence in the game even players who worked with him briefly will feel a real sense of uncertainty after he leaves. Look at Robin Van Persie, for example. He's only worked with Fergie for 12 months but you can bet your arse he was devastated when he heard about his planned retirement, before his potential successor was even discussed.

I'm not denying that replacing him with someone with a much bigger reputation than Moyes might have taken the edge off the destabilisation but we've no idea by how much.

 

[finneh]

Well there's no other plausible explanation, is there? It's not as though the entire squad suffered simultaneous traumatic brain injuries impairing their coordination, balance and decision-making.

When a footballler is playing without confidence and belief their whole game falls apart. Their touch suffers, they misplace simple passes, become hesitant in the tackle, don't take any risks and generally look like half the player that they usually are. A whole team afflicted with this same psychological crisis is by far the most obvious explanation for the dire displays we've seen so often this season.

The only other explanation would be a complete lack of leadership/management.

From my experience you'd be surprised how many people don't apply even their basic skills (and common sense) when there is an absence of management and/or direction. A prime example where I work is the difference between putting a supervisor in charge as a "manager" in the managers absence (a person who is still seen as a "worker", not a manager) vs the presence of a more senior member of staff. More employee's than you'd think go from listening and carrying out the tasks that the are employed/instructed to do to walking around like headless chickens and crossing over duties. In my experience productivity can decrease by 30% easily in this situation.

I think this is far more likely than a confidence issue because we've been crap all season regardless of the previous result. The player's should have been brimming with confidence after the 5-0 thrashing away of Germany's second or third best team, this confidence filled team then attained 1 point in their next 3 games. Likewise our 5 wins on the bounce in December should have had us high on confidence, we then lost 5 of our next 6 games.

If Moyes isn't leading/managing the squad or they don't respect him enough to listen to these instructions, I would expect a season exactly as we are having. My biggest concern is if it is the latter (respect). If you have lost the respect of a group of adults it is very, very hard to get it back: if we win they'll think they've won in spite of the managers incompetence and if they lose they'll blame the managers incompetence.

 

[Shimo]

As somebody stated, the loss of SAF is a change that the entire club is struggling to deal with. . 26 years doing everything like clockwork with one mans instructions. Losing Gill at the same time (who would of known exactly how things need to be done in the transfer market) has only further unsettled things.

Then you have players who would of joined or grown up at the club looking forward to the guaranteed success playing under SAF brings. The uncertainty that Moyes appointment brought couldn't of been easy to take and I would consider it crazy if it didn't take them time to come onside with what Moyes is trying to do.

People keep talking about how poorly united have looked in games and actually refer to Moyes tactics ("how many crosses can United do in one game") as an issue they have with the changes hes made.

That aside, just because Rio and RVP are the only dissenting voices doesn't mean there aren't others struggling with the changes.I remember when the Saipan incident happened with Roy Keane, the main player to speak publically was Niall Quinn on behalf of the team. But this was only half the story. A lot of the team actually felt Keane was right about a lot of the things he had said, but the more senior members made sure that the public story was that they were all united behind the manager. While it hasn't been quite as aggressive, there is a chance that the likes of Rio and RVP are heavily resistant to change and that they are effecting other players negatively (whether these players agree with them or not).

Then theres the bringing in of his own backroom staff, which most believe was the right call (bring in your own people who you trust). Its not that the staff already there weren't good enough, but Moyes knows who he works well with and there is no guarantee that he didn't offer existing staff an alternative role at the club they just didn't want.

The change of Rooney - RVP was bought to show Rooney that hes not our No 1 and to downgrade his importance. Now Rooney has been made our No 1 man and its certainly going to effect the potential performances of RVP (particularly after Matas arrival) , particularly if the team is no longer built around him.

Then there is the change from rivals. Even average teams are having a go at United when they wouldn't in the past and this is simply because the myth of SAF is gone and teams smell blood. Its a snowball effect and the team is struggling to up its game to compensate for the extra effort being put in against them. There is also a clear change in refs who have gone the exact opposite and give united less, particularly in 50/50 incidents whether at OT or away.

None of this absolves Moyes, but the changes at the club and even in the way rivals attack us has made this an extremely difficult season for the entire club. Players would be understandably unsettled and unsure how things will pan out. The manager would be understandably lacking in confidence (IMO) while trying to find his feet and this has transferred itself to the team performances.

I may be wrong, but I believe after a years experience of hell Moyes will learn everything he could possibly wish to learn at the club and it will either make him or break him. I just want to see if he can find his feet, take control of the squad and push on and I don't feel its a huge gamble for the long term stability of the club.

I've got no problems with your opinions - just that you've presented yourself as being objective and taken emotion out of your reason for wanting Moyes to stay but, then the above post is nothing abut a subjective view on what is happening.

I actually share the opinion that there are players that may not like the way Moyes is running things because that's just natural. However, I've not seen any clear indication to lend credence to this thought, just conjecture.

The giving him time thing - I and many were all for it at the start because while Moyes was not the glamorous choice, he is the "Chosen One" and being selected by the football people automatically made him get a lot of leeway to start with many. The problem has been that in the time he has been here, there is little we are seeing in terms of progress. So the question to you is why do you think the him a year to find his feet - do you think after a year, it will suddenly all click for him?

I certainly have been saying for most of the season, all I want is something to hold on to, something to point to and say "see, he is making progress, see that is how he is going to get us going forward" - problem is 8/9 months in there has been nothing to suggest that. So I don't see how giving him another 3 months or whatever is going to magically go from no progress to a whole new level where he has the squad competing from the off next season.

Lets see what happens in the next 10 games, he pretty much should be at a point that the only thing that matters is preparing for next season. Lets see if he can show both the players and the supporters there is hope in him yet. The hope of him succeeding has to come from things happening on the pitch period.

 

[Amir]

It's not just about how long individual players worked under Fergie. He's such a massive presence in the game even players who worked with him briefly will feel a real sense of uncertainty after he leaves. Look at Robin Van Persie, for example. He's only worked with Fergie for 12 months but you can bet your arse he was devastated when he heard about his planned retirement, before his potential successor was even discussed.

I'm not denying that replacing him with someone with a much bigger reputation than Moyes might have taken the edge off the destabilisation but we've no idea by how much.

It's actually the Van Persie thing that makes me laugh. I'm sure he was delighted to work with Fergie, and Fergie himself says he told him he wasn't going to retire when he signed him. And I'm sure Robin was disappointed. But do people honestly think it would still affect him when he comes back to training in July? That it would still be affecting him? That's just rubbish. It's got nothing to do with Fergie's retirement, it's got all to do with the new manager.

Now, in this particular case it's got nothing to do with the blame game. Maybe it's just a personality clash. It's happens to other managers - great managers. But let it go with players not being able to get over Fergie. Van Persie worked with him 12.5% of the time he did with Wenger.

We've no idea what would have happened if we got another manager, certainly. But there's no point hiding behind 'we don't know what if' unless we want to close the forum down. Clubs change managers. And if they get the right man in, they can do very very well. Doing very badly is mostly about getting the wrong man.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It's actually the Van Persie thing that makes me laugh. I'm sure he was delighted to work with Fergie, and Fergie himself says he told him he wasn't going to retire when he signed him. And I'm sure Robin was disappointed. But do people honestly think it would still affect him when he comes back to training in July? That it would still be affecting him? That's just rubbish. It's got nothing to do with Fergie's retirement, it's got all to do with the new manager.

Now, in this particular case it's got nothing to do with the blame game. Maybe it's just a personality clash. It's happens to other managers - great managers. But let it go with players not being able to get over Fergie. Van Persie worked with him 12.5% of the time he did with Wenger.

We've no idea what would have happened if we got another manager, certainly. But there's no point hiding behind 'we don't know what if' unless we want to close the forum down. Clubs change managers. And if they get the right man in, they can do very very well. Doing very badly is mostly about getting the wrong man.

Yes and yes.

 

[Tomalonge]

Yes and yes.

I do too. They're not robots.

 

[KeninDC]

It's not just about how long individual players worked under Fergie. He's such a massive presence in the game even players who worked with him briefly will feel a real sense of uncertainty after he leaves. Look at Robin Van Persie, for example. He's only worked with Fergie for 12 months but you can bet your arse he was devastated when he heard about his planned retirement, before his potential successor was even discussed.

I'm not denying that replacing him with someone with a much bigger reputation than Moyes might have taken the edge off the destabilisation but we've no idea by how much.

No doubt Fergie's retirement had a huge effect on the players and the organization. Although Fergie is indeed unique--there are other examples of larger than life managers who retire. In college basketball there was John Wooden at UCLA, Dean Smith at UNC; in college football Bobby Bowden at Florida State is one recent example. In (American) football Vince Lombardi, Don Shula, Tom Landry all enjoyed great success for long periods of time at one club.

It is true that the track record of people who replace these guys is pretty bad--and so maybe there's a case to be made that any transition, by itself represents a huge obstacle to success.

Not that it refutes the point-but consider the case of Atlanta Braves manager Bobby Cox. He managed the Braves between 1990 and 2010-and was incredibly successful. His team won 12 division titles in those years, played in 5 World Series and won 1 of them: a hall of fame career.

When he retired in 2010 he was replaced by Freddie Gonzalez, who had moderate success with a small revenue club (the Florida-now Miami Marlins) before getting the Atlanta job when he was 47 years old. In his first three years the Braves won an average of more games per year than Cox's team had won in his last three years as manager--in other words the transition went very smoothly.

I'm not saying that managing the Braves is the same as United--but there is a recent example where a manager replaced a long-time successful coach without a drop-off in performance. Maybe it's the exception that proves the rule--but maybe not.

 

[Amir]

Yes and yes.

Let me rephrase. Do you think it would still be affecting him going into the season if he thought our new manager was good and happy with him?

 

[Sky1981]

You all know what happened with the Moyes debate recently. I come up with this brilliant idea of "Moyes Coefficient"

Please answer yay/nay for this questions bellow ("plus1" for Yay, "-1" for Nay, 0 for undecided unless otherwise stated)

1. Do you think our squad has past it? Nay
2. Do you think Moyes has done well in transfer Window? Nay
3. Do you think Moyes should be given more time to rectify this mess? Nay
4. Do you agree with Moyes bringing his own staff and sacking ours? Nay
5. Do you think Fellaini will contribute when he's fit? Undecided
6. Do you think Fergie left him a bad squad? Nay
7. Do you think he has what it takes to turn this around in 2 years and 4 transfer window? Nay
8. Do you think credit him for Januzaj's emergence? Undecided
9. Do you credit him for Mata signing? Yay
10. Do you credit him for Rooney's contract extension? Yay
11. Do you agree with Moyes selling Fabio? Nay
12. Do you agree with Moyes loaning Saha? Nay
13. Do you agree that Moyes needs more Money next season? Undecided
14. Do you trust Moyes with the rebuilding? Nay
15. Do you trust Moyes in his scouting ability? Undecided
16. Do you think Moyes have the charisma to handle big players? Undecided
17. Do you want Moyes sacked now? (questions worth 2 pts) Undecided


You'll have to answer yay/nay/undecided for all the questions above, and when you got the numbers (I got -7 from a 9 Nay, 6 undecided, and 2 yay). Therefore I'm -7 on Moyes coefficient, clearly indicating how my positions towards him (strangely, I fell I should have been more leaning towards -10 / -12)
So in the future discussion we can simply look back and state our Moyes coefficient so people know where everyone stand with Moyes.

PS: I'm just creating some questions out of my head, but with a proper questions, I believe it will more accurately reflect one's perception on Moyes.

Feel free to add / discuss on the questions we should ask ourself.