Moyes So Far!

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kouroux said:
I feel we're more on the same wavelength regarding the players and how they prevent us from playing even better but I don't agree that tactics don't play much of a role in this. I think a coach's role is to try exploit as best as possible the players available and so far this season Moyes has massively failed in almost every aspect of the game (attacking, defending, tactics, motivation, pressure off the ball). We weren't Barca under SAF but the team's cohesion was much better and there was a better structure to our play (it wasn't champagne football).
If the coach encourages positive tactics then the players are more likely to positively respond themselves, I look at our players and despite the vast areas of improvement to be corrected, I still see a lot of unexploited potential.
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I agree but moyes is trying to change things a bit and that was always going to cause problems.

I don't think anybody thought it would be this bad but I do think that a summer of signings and a year of experience in the job and with the players will make for a much better idea of whether he's up for the job or not.
 
Danny1982 said:
That's totally wrong imo. An organized team can pass the ball more easily. When players are confused about what to do, and don't know which way they should go, or where they should position themselves, you'll end up with players making bad passes either because they are forced to make difficult passes, or because they're hesitant and unsure about what to do..

Also, we have never been a Barcelona-like team, but we were always a motivated, organized, and creative team that knows what to do in the final third. Or problem is losing these properties, not losing possession.
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So moyes was able to organise an Everton team but lost the ability to even show basic management abilities just because he's managing united?

Nah, that's a crock. No tactics should make players at this level make bad 10 yard passes and even at that changing tactics is not rocket science.
 
Drummer said:
So moyes was able to organise an Everton team but lost the ability to even show basic management abilities just because he's managing united?

Nah, that's a crock. No tactics should make players at this level make bad 10 yard passes and even at that changing tactics is not rocket science.
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It's the absolute loss of confidence that's doing that.
 
sajeev said:
it could more right,yes. its not as if the greatest manager is infallible.

it makes sense to judge the opinion independent of the person who holds it
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Actually it makes more sense to trust the judgement of SAF then it does anybody on this forum.

He sees the same football we do, but has a greater insight into why moyes should be given more time.

This is conveniently ignored by the moyes out brigade. Saying he is infallible doesn't change the fact that he has more qualifications and knowledge then all the fans combined. He may be proven wrong and moyes may still fail but people who are trusting the judgment of SAF as to how long moyes should be given have a more credible explanation for supporting moyes then those who use their unqualified opinions to debate the topic.
 
Brophs said:
It's the absolute loss of confidence that's doing that.
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Yes, it's not the tactics.

The loss of confidence is a completely different issue. Like I have said it doesn't matter what tactics you play if players have no confidence and are under performing to the levels we have seen.

The big question is , is the lack of confidence because SAF left and players are rattled and concerned about moyes? Also, are there a few players taking the piss and unsettling the squad? If so, then can moyes fix this issue in the summer?
 
Drummer said:
Actually it makes more sense to trust the judgement of SAF then it does anybody on this forum.

He sees the same football we do, but has a greater insight into why moyes should be given more time.

This is conveniently ignored by the moyes out brigade. Saying he is infallible doesn't change the fact that he has more qualifications and knowledge then all the fans combined. He may be proven wrong and moyes may still fail but people who are trusting the judgment of SAF as to how long moyes should be given have a more credible explanation for supporting moyes then those who use their unqualified opinions to debate the topic.
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Drummer-I guess it comes down to, like everything in life, um...sample size. For you, two transfer windows, 70 percent of one year's regular season games, one CL run, one FA Cup run and one League Cup run is not a sufficient sample size to determine whether or not Moyes is right for the job, or to question's SAF's decision.

As a Moyes-out kind of guy (and I hear you about SAF--yes he forgets more about football when he brushes his teeth in the morning than I will ever know)-I think I have enough of a sample size to come to the conclusion that Moyes is not the right guy for the job.

Doesn't make me a bad guy--or that I'm right. But if I hit myself over the head with a frying pan nine times I don't need to do it a 10th time to realize it's a bad idea. In fact, maybe I shouldn't hit myself a second time. And for me, keeping Moyes is the same as hitting myself with a frying pan after the first time--more data does not provide additional information.
 
KeninDC said:
Drummer-I guess it comes down to, like everything in life, um...sample size. For you, two transfer windows, 70 percent of one year's regular season games, one CL run, one FA Cup run and one League Cup run is not a sufficient sample size to determine whether or not Moyes is right for the job, or to question's SAF's decision.

As a Moyes-out kind of guy (and I hear you about SAF--yes he forgets more about football when he brushes his teeth in the morning than I will ever know)-I think I have enough of a sample size to come to the conclusion that Moyes is not the right guy for the job.

Doesn't make me a bad guy--or that I'm right. But if I hit myself over the head with a frying pan nine times I don't need to do it a 10th time to realize it's a bad idea. In fact, maybe I shouldn't hit myself a second time. And for me, keeping Moyes is the same as hitting myself with a frying pan after the first time--more data does not provide additional information.
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Best post in this thread.

I disagree with your stance, but you've clearly stated your understanding of both camps and I can see your reasoning.
 
Drummer said:
Yes, it's not the tactics.

The loss of confidence is a completely different issue. Like I have said it doesn't matter what tactics you play if players have no confidence and are under performing to the levels we have seen.

The big question is , is the lack of confidence because SAF left and players are rattled and concerned about moyes? Also, are there a few players taking the piss and unsettling the squad? If so, then can moyes fix this issue in the summer?
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I'd imagine it's a combination of all of those and more. I think Moyes has gotten quite a few things wrong this season. I think he's sent us out in too negative a way too often. So in that sense the tactics play a part. Those kinds of things undermine the confidence. But equally the players have to look at themselves. For all we talk about great managers being motivators, that has to come from the player too. If you don't have the drive and the courage to go out and perform then it doesn't matter what the manager does.
 
KeninDC said:
Drummer-I guess it comes down to, like everything in life, um...sample size. For you, two transfer windows, 70 percent of one year's regular season games, one CL run, one FA Cup run and one League Cup run is not a sufficient sample size to determine whether or not Moyes is right for the job, or to question's SAF's decision.

As a Moyes-out kind of guy (and I hear you about SAF--yes he forgets more about football when he brushes his teeth in the morning than I will ever know)-I think I have enough of a sample size to come to the conclusion that Moyes is not the right guy for the job.

Doesn't make me a bad guy--or that I'm right. But if I hit myself over the head with a frying pan nine times I don't need to do it a 10th time to realize it's a bad idea. In fact, maybe I shouldn't hit myself a second time. And for me, keeping Moyes is the same as hitting myself with a frying pan after the first time--more data does not provide additional information.
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The problem, even for those of us who advocate giving him more time, is that there's no clear signs or progress, or pointers that we're going somewhere. So what we might end up with after the summer is a battery of expensive new signings and roughly the same set of problems we have now. I've always been reasonably comfortable in trusting Fergie's judgement that he's the man for the job, even though I wouldn't have come to that conclusion based on his career so far, but I'd have to admit that nothing of what I've seen from him since he became our manager leads me to believe that greatness lies ahead. That's what makes this whole experience uncomfortable for me.
 
Brophs said:
The problem, even for those of us who advocate giving him more time, is that there's no clear signs or progress, or pointers that we're going somewhere. So what we might end up with after the summer is a battery of expensive new signings and roughly the same set of problems we have now. I've always been reasonably comfortable in trusting Fergie's judgement that he's the man for the job, even though I wouldn't have come to that conclusion based on his career so far, but I'd have to admit that nothing of what I've seen from him since he became our manager leads me to believe that greatness lies ahead. That's what makes this whole experience uncomfortable for me.
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Yep--There's a thread where we're asked what would make us change our mind about Moyes. For me--if we play the kind of football we played during the latter part of the WBA game on a consistent basis for 90 minutes in our remaining games-then I wouldn't harm myself if he was around at the start of next season. But--under that scenario (and it's unlikely)-he absolutely has to get off to a fast start-like within the first 6-8 games: before Christmas for me to be OK with keeping him around.

That said-my preference is for him to go now-but that won't happen.
 
KeninDC said:
Drummer-I guess it comes down to, like everything in life, um...sample size. For you, two transfer windows, 70 percent of one year's regular season games, one CL run, one FA Cup run and one League Cup run is not a sufficient sample size to determine whether or not Moyes is right for the job, or to question's SAF's decision.

As a Moyes-out kind of guy (and I hear you about SAF--yes he forgets more about football when he brushes his teeth in the morning than I will ever know)-I think I have enough of a sample size to come to the conclusion that Moyes is not the right guy for the job.

Doesn't make me a bad guy--or that I'm right. But if I hit myself over the head with a frying pan nine times I don't need to do it a 10th time to realize it's a bad idea. In fact, maybe I shouldn't hit myself a second time. And for me, keeping Moyes is the same as hitting myself with a frying pan after the first time--more data does not provide additional information.
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That's fair enough . . I have no problem with people wanting to debate a topic but cannot accept the stance of people who think trusting in SAF wisdom is stupid simply because he is not infallible. SAF view and opinion on Moyes is important and valid in the topic whether the Moyes out people like it or not.

I understand why people have lost faith (or never had it) in Moyes, but right now I trust that SAF will cut his losses (if its required) if he feels the Moyes gamble is a failure. That aside, I personally don't understand the whole "sack a manager if its not going right in first season" syndrome. There are only a handful of managers in the world that could come into a huge club like united and stabilise things. Less managers capable of filling the shoes of SAF.

We could say that Jose or perhaps Anchelotti could of done it, but Anchelotti wasn't available and Jose was not the way the club wanted to go (somebody who would be gone in 3 years). So the club has taken the long term approach and taken a gamble with a manager unproven at this level.

If you accept and awknowledge that he is unproven at this level then you must accept that he was always going to need time to find his feet and grow into the role. You don't have to like it, but his experience is the one thing people keep bashing him with, well after one disasterous season at the club he certainly has one more years experience managing a big club then he did when he started.

He also has the opportunity to get rid of players who simply will not perform for him or respond to his instructions/training/tactics. In all walks of life, peoples personalities can simply clash and they may not get on with certain people, this is true of managers who have better relationships with certain players.

Lastly, I don't believe there is a comparable job in replacing SAF in football. Its not just taking over the management of a club, its taking over a club that was pretty much built up by SAF to a level it never had. The players, the staff, everything about the club is SAF (still is to a large degree). The confidence of losing him alone has been shocking. Moyes is not and never will be SAF, so he needs to do things his way and that takes time.

People keep measuring his ability to succeed in comparison to the success of last season which is understandable and reasonable. However, the club is playing the long game and looking far beyond this season in sticking with Moyes. Its not about simply looking at how poor we have looked this season, its about what Moyes can do to turn it around and make a proper stamp of authority in the summer when he has had a good year to judge all players.
 
Drummer said:
That's fair enough . . I have no problem with people wanting to debate a topic but cannot accept the stance of people who think trusting in SAF wisdom is stupid simply because he is not infallible. SAF view and opinion on Moyes is important and valid in the topic whether the Moyes out people like it or not.

I understand why people have lost faith (or never had it) in Moyes, but right now I trust that SAF will cut his losses (if its required) if he feels the Moyes gamble is a failure. That aside, I personally don't understand the whole "sack a manager if its not going right in first season" syndrome. There are only a handful of managers in the world that could come into a huge club like united and stabilise things. Less managers capable of filling the shoes of SAF.

We could say that Jose or perhaps Anchelotti could of done it, but Anchelotti wasn't available and Jose was not the way the club wanted to go (somebody who would be gone in 3 years). So the club has taken the long term approach and taken a gamble with a manager unproven at this level.

If you accept and awknowledge that he is unproven at this level then you must accept that he was always going to need time to find his feet and grow into the role. You don't have to like it, but his experience is the one thing people keep bashing him with, well after one disasterous season at the club he certainly has one more years experience managing a big club then he did when he started.

He also has the opportunity to get rid of players who simply will not perform for him or respond to his instructions/training/tactics. In all walks of life, peoples personalities can simply clash and they may not get on with certain people, this is true of managers who have better relationships with certain players.

Lastly, I don't believe there is a comparable job in replacing SAF in football. Its not just taking over the management of a club, its taking over a club that was pretty much built up by SAF to a level it never had. The players, the staff, everything about the club is SAF (still is to a large degree). The confidence of losing him alone has been shocking. Moyes is not and never will be SAF, so he needs to do things his way and that takes time.

People keep measuring his ability to succeed in comparison to the success of last season which is understandable and reasonable. However, the club is playing the long game and looking far beyond this season in sticking with Moyes. Its not about simply looking at how poor we have looked this season, its about what Moyes can do to turn it around and make a proper stamp of authority in the summer when he has had a good year to judge all players.
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Drummer--Nice debating with you. You make some great points. I agree that Moyes had a learning curve-and that his appointment played to our better nature by taking a long-term view of the club. Absolutely. I just wish I saw anything in Moyes this year that would give me hope for the future. But-as you say, he may turn this around, and Fergie obviously saw something in him. How about we leave it at we respectively agree to disagree?
 
KeninDC said:
Drummer--Nice debating with you. You make some great points. I agree that Moyes had a learning curve-and that his appointment played to our better nature by taking a long-term view of the club. Absolutely. I just wish I saw anything in Moyes this year that would give me hope for the future. But-as you say, he may turn this around, and Fergie obviously saw something in him. How about we leave it at we respectively agree to disagree?
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Agreed . .
 
Drummer said:
Actually it makes more sense to trust the judgement of SAF then it does anybody on this forum.
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Sir Alex also said he left the club in a great place, with a great mixture of youth and experiance.
Do we need an overhaul? If so why? Are the players not as good as Sir Alex thought? Can Moyes not get the best out of them? Is the club actually in a bad place? Did Fergie get it wrong? Is Moyes breaking up a team that doesn't need broken up?
I trust Sir Alex, but it doesn't mean posters can't form their own opinion on how badly the team is doing, and voice what they believe is causing it. It doesn't mean they think they know more or that Fergie has got it wrong.
Yes, it's early days for Moyes but some of the football we have had to witness this year is going to cause concern to fans, and of course people are going to question the clubs direction and if the right choice has been made.
 
Drummer said:
I agree but moyes is trying to change things a bit and that was always going to cause problems.

I don't think anybody thought it would be this bad but I do think that a summer of signings and a year of experience in the job and with the players will make for a much better idea of whether he's up for the job or not.
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I hope that against Liverpool and Olympiakos, there will a form of continuity with his system. Like if Mata can't play in the CL, start Kagawa but keep the general idea more or less the same.
 
The way we setup and played against West Brom had been preceded by doing the same in the CP game and the Arsenal game. I have no idea why he went back to the overuse of wide attacking play in the Olympiacos game but those 3 out of 4 games may indicate a shift in his tactical thinking and longer term approach. I hope he carries on from the West Brom/CP/Arsenal approach, there was more variety in our play and if we stick with it we can get back some of our old slickness.
 
Drummer said:
Actually it makes more sense to trust the judgement of SAF then it does anybody on this forum. He sees the same football we do, but has a greater insight into why moyes should be given more time.
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His previous choices to replace him included Sven Eriksson and Martin O'Neill. How well do you think they would have worked out if they had been appointed and 'given time' here?

Fergie backing him doesn't mean half as much as you think it does and the whole 'he's Alex Ferguson so therefore he's right and you are not' is complete nonsense.
 
Tomalonge said:
Yeah, he mentioned it in his book I think. It was when he changed his mind about retiring that he found out it was Sven who was going to replace him.
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That's how I remember reading it as well. I could go and check but the books all the way upstairs and I'm quite comfortable on the sofa.
 
An Irish Red said:
Even if it was the club (always thought he was recommended by Fergie) it doesn't change the point at all.
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Erm, yes it does. It changes your whole statement, as it hangs on the "fact" that he chose those successors.

For one I can't remember Fergie ever saying anything about Sven at the time, and I've only seen him praise O'Neill when he was coming to the end of his tenure at Aston Villa, a team he did exceptionally well with.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Being absolutely certain that Fergie got this decision right would be silly.

Bearing in mind that he's likely to be a fairly good judge of managerial talent - when deciding how soon to write Moyes off - seems reasonable.
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There's bearing something in mind and then there's having blind faith as a result though. I honestly don't know how anyone can look at David Moyes and think he's destined to be a title-winning manager at a big club.

I remember everyone saying Rafa was too defensive to win the english league and, truth be told, he is twice the manager that Moyes is (not just physically). I can't think of a single top-tier manager with a defeatist attitude and that's exactly what Moyes has.
 
Tomalonge said:
Erm, yes it does. It changes your whole statement, as it hangs on the "fact" that he chose those successors.

For one I can't remember Fergie ever saying anything about Sven at the time, and I've only seen him praise O'Neill when he was coming to the end of his tenure at Aston Villa, a team he did exceptionally well with.
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My point is that he is not infallible so the idea that we just blindly follow his opinion is lunacy.

Fergie backing him doesn't mean half as much as you think it does and the whole 'he's Alex Ferguson so therefore he's right and you are not' is complete nonsense.
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If I was wrong about who selected Sven/O'Neill then fair enough but that was the important bit.
 
Tomalonge said:
Only Drummer's saying SAF is infallible, easy tiger.
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Actually I never once called SAF infallible, you are welcome to quote me if you can find a post where I said he is always right.

Saying "SAF isn't infallible" doesn't automatically give fans a superior ability to professionally judge how moyes is performing. It's such a ridiculous statement.

I'm simply saying if I had to choose how the future of the club was to be decided I would sooner trust in SAF to make that decision then trust a fan poll!!
 
Drummer said:
Actually I never once called SAF infallible, you are welcome to quote me if you can find a post where I said he is always right.

Saying "SAF isn't infallible" doesn't automatically give fans a superior ability to professionally judge how moyes is performing. It's such a ridiculous statement.

I'm simply saying if I had to choose how the future of the club was to be decided I would sooner trust in SAF to make that decision then trust a fan poll!!
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Are you unable to form your own opinion?
 
Getsme said:
Are you unable to form your own opinion?
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My opinion is that SAF has more knowledge of football then the entire members of this site. It's not the opinion you like, but it is a personal opinion none the less.

That aside, I've given plenty of reasons why I still support moyes besides the fact that SAF still supports him.

Some people who want moyes out just don't want to discuss this topic, they only want to ridicule anybody with a differant view.
 
Tomalonge said:
Because you've been blowing him in every post you've made in here, and making it out like he's the almighty guru.

He's a great man, but he could have been wrong about this, you have yet to accept that as a possibility.
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It's a bit like all my posts about Moyes would stand, except my parts when I said that he should be sacked will be removed. In that case, nothing would change despite I didn't explicitly (hello @Kevin, I can play these word games too) said that he should be sacked, still from the content of the posts anyone would see that.

And then me complaining that people are saying that I want Moyes out. (actually that happened, until late January or so).
 
Tomalonge said:
Because you've been blowing him in every post you've made in here, and making it out like he's the almighty guru.

He's a great man, but he could have been wrong about this, you have yet to accept that as a possibility.
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Saf could of been wrong, just like the vast majority of people whining about the season could very well be completely wrong because they have zero insight into what it takes to run a club or build a squad.

He won the league last season, it's not like he's decades out of the game.
 
Drummer said:
My opinion is that SAF has more knowledge of football then the entire members of this site. It's not the opinion you like, but it is a personal opinion none the less.

That aside, I've given plenty of reasons why I still support moyes besides the fact that SAF still supports him.

Some people who want moyes out just don't want to discuss this topic, they only want to ridicule anybody with a differant view.
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I don't want Moyes out though. Figure that one out, Einstein.
 
Tomalonge said:
Because you've been blowing him in every post you've made in here, and making it out like he's the almighty guru.
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It's getting very boring now.
Tomalonge said:
He's a great man, but he could have been wrong about this, you have yet to accept that as a possibility.
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Indeed, his mistakes are rare in comparison to every thing he's got right, but your spot on, even the Greats make mistakes.
 
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