Moyes So Far!

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Tomalonge said:
Good post mate. The only thing in which we differ is the level of skepticism then. :)
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Pretty much I suppose. I mean I'm not overly confident about Moyes in general, but if he can pull it off in these big games then I'll be more convinced that our fortunes are perhaps beginning to change.
 
Drummer said:
I feel that the problem hasn't been as much tactics as it has been players performance and/or confidence. The amount of misplaced passes and errors has nothing to do with the way the team is setup in my opinion. Possession is also about being cool under pressure and comfortable on the ball which our players clearly haven't been and its even harder to dictate games if you are already low in confidence.

Carrick is usually cool under pressure but he was uncharacteristically poor against Olympiacos, you know when his passing goes to sh*t you are in trouble. But even on his best day Carrick is an excellent tidy player, but nothing more, hes not ever going to dictate the tempo of a game or seldom finds an awesome through ball. Short and simple is his mantra.

Then you have Cleverley who is not the most gifted technically, but he gets slaughtered because he passes back and sideways a lot. Ironically its the best way of retaining possession if you have limited technical ability! But what good is that ?
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I feel we're more on the same wavelength regarding the players and how they prevent us from playing even better but I don't agree that tactics don't play much of a role in this. I think a coach's role is to try exploit as best as possible the players available and so far this season Moyes has massively failed in almost every aspect of the game (attacking, defending, tactics, motivation, pressure off the ball). We weren't Barca under SAF but the team's cohesion was much better and there was a better structure to our play (it wasn't champagne football).
If the coach encourages positive tactics then the players are more likely to positively respond themselves, I look at our players and despite the vast areas of improvement to be corrected, I still see a lot of unexploited potential.
 
Drummer said:
I feel that the problem hasn't been as much tactics as it has been players performance and/or confidence. The amount of misplaced passes and errors has nothing to do with the way the team is setup in my opinion. Possession is also about being cool under pressure and comfortable on the ball which our players clearly haven't been and its even harder to dictate games if you are already low in confidence.

Carrick is usually cool under pressure but he was uncharacteristically poor against Olympiacos, you know when his passing goes to sh*t you are in trouble. But even on his best day Carrick is an excellent tidy player, but nothing more, hes not ever going to dictate the tempo of a game or seldom finds an awesome through ball. Short and simple is his mantra.

Then you have Cleverley who is not the most gifted technically, but he gets slaughtered because he passes back and sideways a lot. Ironically its the best way of retaining possession if you have limited technical ability! But what good is that ?
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Listen, stop throwing all players under the bus just to defend Moyes. If a team is under performing, Moyes has to take a big chunk of responsibility. He's the one who's picking the team and it starts from him. If it's just one player under poor form, it can be explained but not everyone.
 
fishfingers15 said:
Listen, stop throwing all players under the bus just to defend Moyes. If a team is under performing, Moyes has to take a big chunk of responsibility. He's the one who's picking the team and it starts from him. If it's just one player under poor form, it can be explained but not everyone.
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Spot on.
 
Garethw said:
Spot on.
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I'm not calling for Moyes' head by the way, I'm happy to judge him at the end of the season. This thread is either black or white, you either have to sack Moyes now or you have to stick with him for 3 years. Clearly, there's no middle ground at all. Both camps are looking at every excuse to sack him (Moyes watching Blackburn match irritates a few posters while Rafael, Van Persie and Kagawa can't be let go quickly for some others).
 
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fishfingers15 said:
Listen, stop throwing all players under the bus just to defend Moyes. If a team is under performing, Moyes has to take a big chunk of responsibility. He's the one who's picking the team and it starts from him. If it's just one player under poor form, it can be explained but not everyone.
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I do wonder about that. I've even seen supporters using the recent (mis?)quotes from the likes of Hernandez and Van Persie as proof the problem is with the players, their attitudes, just get rid of them, etc. Moyes is totally new to the system, while a lot of our players have served us well over the years. Why are some so quick to point the blame at them?
 
Drummer said:
I feel that the problem hasn't been as much tactics as it has been players performance and/or confidence. The amount of misplaced passes and errors has nothing to do with the way the team is setup in my opinion. Possession is also about being cool under pressure and comfortable on the ball which our players clearly haven't been and its even harder to dictate games if you are already low in confidence.

Carrick is usually cool under pressure but he was uncharacteristically poor against Olympiacos, you know when his passing goes to sh*t you are in trouble. But even on his best day Carrick is an excellent tidy player, but nothing more, hes not ever going to dictate the tempo of a game or seldom finds an awesome through ball. Short and simple is his mantra.

Then you have Cleverley who is not the most gifted technically, but he gets slaughtered because he passes back and sideways a lot. Ironically its the best way of retaining possession if you have limited technical ability! But what good is that ?
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That's totally wrong imo. An organized team can pass the ball more easily. When players are confused about what to do, and don't know which way they should go, or where they should position themselves, you'll end up with players making bad passes either because they are forced to make difficult passes, or because they're hesitant and unsure about what to do..

Also, we have never been a Barcelona-like team, but we were always a motivated, organized, and creative team that knows what to do in the final third. Or problem is losing these properties, not losing possession.
 
fishfingers15 said:
I'm not calling for Moyes' head by the way, I'm happy to judge him at the end of the season. This thread is either black or white, you either have to sack Moyes now or you have to stick with him for 3 years. Clearly, there's no middle ground at all. Both camps are looking at every excuse to sack him (Moyes watching Blackburn match irritates a few posters while Rafael, Van Persie and Kagawa can't be let go quickly for some others).
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When that judgement day come, you'll be probably weighting all the pros and cons, goods and bad, and in my view,

Subconsiously, I'll be having a rating of how he performs each weeks , and against each problems/decisions, and probably average it outs of the course of his tenure. And so far, the raport he got in my head is so bad, that even if he scores 10 on the remaining weeks, he will not make the good enough grade.

I hope it illustrates why I think he's will not be good enough at the end of the season, and I don't need to see the rest of the performance till the end of the season, because the 3/4 of the season is already so damning that the rest of the seasons matters none.

Realistically, if things gets alot better from here on, the best thing you can put that under is "He's started to gain ground", and for me that is still not good enough at the end of the day.

Off course if we're playing shit hot one week, and abysmal the next week for a period of time, you can say the jury is still out, and we will need more time to properly assess him, which is fair. But at this moment, we have a glimpse of "good performance" and the rest is close to "Bad and worst"

The only saving grace Moyes have is that he's replacing a 26years reign, ageing squad, mammoth task, etc etc. But all the defending excuses are perceptions (not in a sense that they're not real, but they're nothing more than a perceived abstract handicap) while his damning arguments are very real (Players revolting, points loses, league position, dumped out of the competitions, stock shares falling down, boring football, etc)
 
Sky1981 said:
When that judgement day come, you'll be probably weighting all the pros and cons, goods and bad, and in my view,

Subconsiously, I'll be having a rating of how he performs each weeks , and against each problems/decisions, and probably average it outs of the course of his tenure. And so far, the raport he got in my head is so bad, that even if he scores 10 on the remaining weeks, he will not make the good enough grade.

I hope it illustrates why I think he's will not be good enough at the end of the season, and I don't need to see the rest of the performance till the end of the season, because the 3/4 of the season is already so damning that the rest of the seasons matters none.

Realistically, if things gets alot better from here on, the best thing you can put that under is "He's started to gain ground", and for me that is still not good enough at the end of the day.

Off course if we're playing shit hot one week, and abysmal the next week for a period of time, you can say the jury is still out, and we will need more time to properly assess him, which is fair. But at this moment, we have a glimpse of "good performance" and the rest is close to "Bad and worst"

The only saving grace Moyes have is that he's replacing a 26years reign, ageing squad, mammoth task, etc etc. But all the defending excuses are perceptions (not in a sense that they're not real, but they're nothing more than a perceived abstract handicap) while his damning arguments are very real (Players revolting, points loses, league position, dumped out of the competitions, stock shares falling down, boring football, etc)
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So.................you'll "rate" how he performs each week until the end of the season but you've already made up your mind anyway that he's no good and must go. So tell me, what's the point of rating how he performs each week?

And by the way, can you let us know what qualifications and/or experience you have in the field of professional football management that enable your "rating" to be accepted as valid and relevant?
 
Rednotdead said:
So.................you'll "rate" how he performs each week until the end of the season but you've already made up your mind anyway that he's no good and must go. So tell me, what's the point of rating how he performs each week?

And by the way, can you let us know what qualifications and/or experience you have in the field of professional football management that enable your "rating" to be accepted as valid and relevant?
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Subconsciously, what we think of him today, is a collective result of how we rate him in the past, be it his tenure in Everton or 8mths under us.


Let me ask you a smple question:

What do you think of Bebe? Good / Shit?
Why do you think he's what you think?
Do you think if he's given another year playing first team football, he will become like Messi, he could have been young and learning you know?
If at one game he plays like Messi, do you still want him back?

As for my professional football management qualification, I have none. I simply think he's not good enough, a view many shared.
 
Rednotdead said:
So.................you'll "rate" how he performs each week until the end of the season but you've already made up your mind anyway that he's no good and must go. So tell me, what's the point of rating how he performs each week?
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I think it's quite obvious in that post that he thinks Moyes has been woefully bad for the most part of the season that good results at the end of the season are still not enough. I may not necessary agree however, I think he was OK-ish until the WBA, Soton game, and it went way downhill from there.
And by the way, can you let us know what qualifications and/or experience you have in the field of professional football management that enable your "rating" to be accepted as valid and relevant?
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FFS, now we need qualifications to complain about our manager??
 
Rednotdead said:
And by the way, can you let us know what qualifications and/or experience you have in the field of professional football management that enable your "rating" to be accepted as valid and relevant?
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So what do you think can be accepted as requisite qualification and experience?

I think it is a great idea. Redcafe can get its football professors to create a curriculum and then charge for the course & certification tests. It will also ensure we are no longer dependent on Google ads and erratic donations.
 
sajeev said:
So what do you think can be accepted as requisite qualification and experience?

I think it is a great idea. Redcafe can get its football professors to create a curriculum and then charge for the course & certification tests. It will also ensure we are no longer dependent on Google ads and erratic donations.
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Excellent.
Will there be homeworks and exams with FM ? I will ace those
 
Sky1981 said:
Subconsciously, what we think of him today, is a collective result of how we rate him in the past, be it his tenure in Everton or 8mths under us.


Let me ask you a smple question:

What do you think of Bebe? Good / Shit?
Why do you think he's what you think?
Do you think if he's given another year playing first team football, he will become like Messi, he could have been young and learning you know?
If at one game he plays like Messi, do you still want him back?

As for my professional football management qualification, I have none. I simply think he's not good enough, a view many shared.
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Bebe has nothing to do with this discussion. Why would anything relating to him be relevant.

As for "professional qualifications" it's a fair question to ask in order that readers may assess the validity or otherwise of your "judgment"
 
reelworld said:
I think it's quite obvious in that post that he thinks Moyes has been woefully bad for the most part of the season that good results at the end of the season are still not enough. I may not necessary agree however, I think he was OK-ish until the WBA, Soton game, and it went way downhill from there.

FFS, now we need qualifications to complain about our manager??
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So therefore by his own admission, if we went on to win the CL he would still sack Moyes.

As for "qualifications", he posted with such apparent authority that I thought he must be an expert in the field. It's a perfectly valid question to ask in order for readers to assess the validity of his "judgment".
 
Rednotdead said:
As for "professional qualifications" it's a fair question to ask in order that readers may assess the validity or otherwise of your "judgment"
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it is not really, since an opinion can be right or wrong irrespective of who holds it, you should judge the opinion not the one who posted the opinion. also when it comes to sport, having played the sport while giving an edge, doesn't really mean that the opinion should be given more importance, since one can overcome the value of experience with sheer intelligence. i am talking about with relevance to opinions not actual management.
 
Rednotdead said:
So therefore by his own admission, if we went on to win the CL he would still sack Moyes.

As for "qualifications", he posted with such apparent authority that I thought he must be an expert in the field. It's a perfectly valid question to ask in order for readers to assess the validity of his "judgment".
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Readers here mainly depend on their eyes (by watching United games) to assess the validity of the "judgement" of other people. It's recommended here that you form your own opinion so we can have actual debates.

People need qualifications to manage United (something ironically Moyes didn't have), but they, generally, don't need qualifications to post on an internet forum.
 
sajeev said:
it is not really, since an opinion can be right or wrong irrespective of who holds it, you should judge the opinion not the one who posted the opinion. also when it comes to sport, having played the sport while giving an edge, doesn't really mean that the opinion should be given more importance, since one can overcome the value of experience with sheer intelligence. i am talking about with relevance to opinions not actual management.
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So what you're saying is the opinion of someone who has never watched a football match in their life could be more valid than that of the greatest manager the world has ever seen (whoever that may be).
 
Danny1982 said:
Readers here mainly depend on their eyes (by watching United games) to assess the validity of the "judgement" of other people. It's recommended here that you form your own opinion so we can have actual debates.

People need qualifications to manage United (something ironically Moyes didn't have), but they, generally, don't need qualifications to post on an internet forum.
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I didn't say anywhere that people should need qualifications to post on a football forum.

I simply asked this poster what his qualifications were, if any. Nobody is saying he has no right to post an opinion, all I want to be able to do is assess how valid or otherwise it might be - much as a court would ask an expert witness giving an opinion in a trial what their experience was, in order to assess its validity.
 
Rednotdead said:
I didn't say anywhere that people should need qualifications to post on a football forum.

I simply asked this poster what his qualifications were, if any. Nobody is saying he has no right to post an opinion, all I want to be able to do is assess how valid or otherwise it might be - much as a court would ask an expert witness giving an opinion in a trial what their experience was, in order to assess its validity.
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I totally disagree of course, because we're here neither in court, nor to sentence anybody. You do realize that we, here in the forum, don't have any powers that could affect the club or how it's run in anyway, right? We're here just exchanging opinions, opinions, and that's what we should be discussing.

Out of curiosity though, do you also believe that Moyes was the wrong man to take over the club? Because by your logic, tens of other managers would have been "more valid" choices, right?
 
Danny1982 said:
I totally disagree of course, because we're here neither in court, nor to sentence anybody. You do realize that we, here in the forum, don't have any powers that could affect the club or how it's run in anyway, right? We're here just exchanging opinions, opinions, and that's what we should be discussing.
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Yes, I realise that perfectly well. If someone gave an opinion on a player after watching every game he played for a whole season, and someone who hadn't watched even one game gave a contrary opinion, whose would be more valid would you think? The person who has experience of actually watching the player play or the person who hasn't seen him play once? You'd be weighing and assessing the validity of the two opinions.

Out of curiosity though, do you also believe that Moyes was the wrong man to take over the club? Because by your logic, tens of other managers would have been "more valid" choices, right?
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I haven't yet formed an opinion on that. Get back to me in December 2014. Tens of other managers may be more qualified, but not necessarily "more valid". We don't know what criteria were applied when choosing the new manager so it's not a question I'm able to answer.
 
Rednotdead said:
I haven't yet formed an opinion on that. Get back to me in December 2014.
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You set an arbitrary date-of-arrival for your opinions?

Have you always done this or did you one day decide "from August 2009, this is what I shall do" ?
 
Rednotdead said:
Y
I haven't yet formed an opinion on that. Get back to me in December 2014. Tens of other managers may be more qualified, but not necessarily "more valid". We don't know what criteria were applied when choosing the new manager so it's not a question I'm able to answer.
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So how are you going to answer it on December 2014?
 
Rednotdead said:
Bebe has nothing to do with this discussion. Why would anything relating to him be relevant.

As for "professional qualifications" it's a fair question to ask in order that readers may assess the validity or otherwise of your "judgment"
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Let me ask you a smple question:

What do you think of Bebe Moyes? Good / Shit?
Why do you think he's what you think?
Do you think if he's given another year playing first team football managing United, he will become like Messi SAF, he could have been young and learning you know?
If at one game he plays manages like Messi Ferguson, do you still want him back Does it means he's a Fergie?

Let's say there's 50 games in a season. If moyes fails to perform in 40 out of 50 games, I believe I can say he failed this season, regardless of what he does in 10 games (due to the constraint that the max pts you can get is still 3, everything else is subjective)

Waiting for the 10 additional games to pass means nothing, at best it can only reduce his failure level, but he is still a failure, because the maths and percentages dictates so (The number of bad games >>> the number of good games)

Whether he can come good next season, is a different story.
That is answering the questions of "Bebe can become a Ronaldo if given time and resources and patience" because we've given Ronaldo 4 years in the past, and he made it, by rights Bebe should have made it as well, they're both Portuguese"
 
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Rednotdead said:
So what you're saying is the opinion of someone who has never watched a football match in their life could be more valid than that of the greatest manager the world has ever seen (whoever that may be).
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it could more right,yes. its not as if the greatest manager is infallible.

it makes sense to judge the opinion independent of the person who holds it
 
Sky1981 said:
Let me ask you a smple question:

What do you think of Bebe Moyes? Good / Shit?
Why do you think he's what you think?
Do you think if he's given another year playing first team football managing United, he will become like Messi SAF, he could have been young and learning you know?
If at one game he plays manages like Messi Ferguson, do you still want him back Does it means he's a Fergie?
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Yeah, because Bebe is to football what Moyes is to management.

Christ on a bike, are the rest of you Moyes out people going to let people like this argue the toss for them?
 
Tomalonge said:
Yeah, because Bebe is to football what Moyes is to management.

Christ on a bike, are the rest of you Moyes out people going to let people like this argue the toss for them?
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It's his opinion, and he's entitled to it.
Have I missed something? Since when has one poster spoke for everybody? Did I miss an election?
 
Tomalonge said:
You, defending his right to spout utter garbage in an attempt to get someone's back up.

You think it's a legit comparison then?
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The only thing I'm defending is his right to his opinion, he's entitled to it, just like you are. Who's back am I trying to get up by the way? Yours?

Is it a legitimate comparison, I'd say no, but I can see what he's saying and if I strongly disagree with it I would open a debate with him. What I wouldn't do though is say that he speaks for all the Moyes out group like you just did, just like I wouldn't suggest that you speak for all the Moyes in group.
I've noticed that you get very defensive in here when people don't agree with you, or have the cheek to form an opinion that's differing to yours.
I suggest you learn to chill and realise that it's an Internet forum which will have many many different opinions.
 
Rednotdead said:
Tens of other managers may be more qualified, but not necessarily "more valid".
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So it's not really about the "qualifications", it's about defending Moyes. When it works against Moyes, qualifications are "not that important for validity", but when it works for him, qualifications are a necessity.
 
Rednotdead said:
I didn't say anywhere that people should need qualifications to post on a football forum.

I simply asked this poster what his qualifications were, if any. Nobody is saying he has no right to post an opinion, all I want to be able to do is assess how valid or otherwise it might be - much as a court would ask an expert witness giving an opinion in a trial what their experience was, in order to assess its validity.
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ok.
First, it's my opinion
Second, I'm explaining the train of thoughts of why I think Moyes is not good enough (based on how he perform weeks in weeks out for 8 months)
Third, I'm explaining why I think he will still score a fail at the end of this season. I don't need to rationalise further, 5th is best finish we can hope, and that requires a distinguished performance from us on every remaining games. Suffice to say that even if Moyes wins every game, we will still ended up with 5th. Hence still not good enough

I'm not a football manager, nor qualify to be one, but that is basic logic and understanding what the math term "Averaging" means. The concept that corelates with League Pts Table

You are judged based on how you perform on 38 games. The closer you get to the 38th games, the closer you know the max points you can get. Lose too many points, and you know your max possible points is getting lower.
Moyes performance (all non technical arguments asides) corelates with our position in the table (rocket science), and just as my judgment on him corelates with our position in the table.
Let's say on average Moyes scores a 5.5 for 30 games (tbf, we lost quite a number of games), from today on he wins 4-0 on every match till the 38th, scoring a 9.0 for the last 8 games

( 5.5 x 30 + 9.0 x 8 ) / 38 = 6.2 over a season (still not good enough) and that is on best case scenario. So I can safely assume he's not good enough on June 30th, just like we won't finish past 4th on June 30th
 
Getsme said:
The only thing I'm defending is his right to his opinion, he's entitled to it, just like you are. Who's back am I trying to get up by the way? Yours?

Is it a legitimate comparison, I'd say no, but I can see what he's saying and if I strongly disagrees with it I would open a debate with him. What I wouldn't do though is say that he speaks for all the Moyes out group like you just did, just like I wouldn't suggest that you speak for all the Moyes in group.
I've noticed that you get very defensive in here when people don't agree with you, or have the cheek to form an opinion that's differing to yours.
I suggest you learn to chill and realise that it's an Internet forum which will have many many different opinions.
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Woah man, just my opinion. I'm entitled to it, no? You're being precious.

And I didn't say he was the focal speaker, just that he's adding more unnecessary bollocks to the argument, he is speaking for your side yes?

I wouldn't mind if you weren't so hasty to jump on an opinion from the "Moyes in" camp you've just lumped me in, how dare those guys have opinions, right? I mean they don't hate Moyes.
 
Tomalonge said:
You, defending his right to spout utter garbage in an attempt to get someone's back up.

You think it's a legit comparison then?
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Tomalonge said:
Woah man, just my opinion. I'm entitled to it, no? You're being precious.

And I didn't say he was the focal speaker, just that he's adding more unnecessary bollocks to the argument, he is speaking for your side yes?

I wouldn't mind if you weren't so hasty to jump on an opinion from the "Moyes in" camp you've just lumped me in, how dare those guys have opinions, right? I mean they don't hate Moyes.
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Oh... the irony
 
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