Moyes So Far!

[Empire]

I was going by Moyes' selection habits at United. He always seems to favour Young and Valencia in the big games despite the fact we almost lost them all when they start. It's bizarre.

The alternatives?

Mata when available has been preferred.

Januzaj is young and Moyes tends to want to play it safe with him. Even though we need him this season he doesn't want to risk psychological or physiological damage with excess stress on him. I can understand his lack of selection considering his age and the fact it is his first full season in the premier league.

Kagawa simply hasn't impressed and honestly, despite him being a quality player I can understand Young's selection simply because the latter doesn't perform in a static team and Moyes knows something is horribly wrong. He must work to get them moving more however because they are not I can understand his reason to not play Kagawa.

Zaha - still young, he knows more about him in training.

I want Kagawa and Januzaj to play more however I can understand Moyes selection. I would imagine he wants new wingers.

 

[Kaos]

The alternatives?

Mata when available has been preferred.

Januzaj is young and Moyes tends to want to play it safe with him. Even though we need him this season he doesn't want to risk psychological or physiological damage with excess stress on him. I can understand his lack of selection considering his age and the fact it is his first full season in the premier league. .

I understand not playing him week in week out, but his omission from the matchday squad at Olympiacos was baffling to say the least.

Kagawa simply hasn't impressed and honestly, despite him being a quality player I can understand Young's selection simply because the latter doesn't perform in a static team and Moyes knows something is horribly wrong. He must work to get them moving more however because they are not I can understand his reason to not play Kagawa.

This doesn't compute with me. Our team needn't be static if it has the right players, and despite our deficiencies we do have players of technical prowess - RVP, Mata, Januzaj, Kagawa...how many times have you seen them all play together? Kagawa doesn't suit Moyes' crossing game which doesn't even work to begin with. It's pretty simple, you play your best players - not those who offer nothing in a static, predictable setup.

 

[Mihajlovic]

Nah, in that scenario I can imagine hearing that he needs time to rebuild the entire stadium, brick by brick, before he can be properly judged.

If that doesn't work, 'sensible pundits' will insist that Moyes must be given the funds to atomically dematerialise the entire squad and then rebuild them molecule by molecule to his own specifications.

If this still doesn't provide Moyes with the exact right circumstances for his highly complex footballing vision to come to fruition, I can see Fergie assembling a doomsday device - 'sensible pundits' will frantically assure us that the world simply hasn't been pulling it's weight and that a 'massive, global clear-out' is needed in order for Moyes to have a fair go at it. 'True fans' like Drummer and Pogue will righteously agree that though they love their families, and have enjoyed life on Earth, this is simply the only realistic way forward at this point.

Moyes will be bundled into an underground bunker for his own protection, and all other life on the planet will be eradicated.

Moyes will emerge from his bunker, just as Fergie has instructed, with a football, two sets of goal posts and a homemade banner that reads "Barclay's Premier League" on it. He will mount the banner and the goal posts in the hard, dry, dead Earth and proceed to play a single match, against no-one, for the title of 'Premier League Champion of the Universe' - first goal wins.

He stoically plods up field, ball at his feet. Fast, nervous breaths as he approaches the empty opposition goal. He aims a lofted ball into the open net but just as the ball is about to cross the line, a rogue gust of post-apocalypse wind picks the ball up and blows it in the opposite direction...

Straight down the makeshift pitch it blows and straight into Moyes' own net.

Game over.

Moyes sighs and stumbles off into the empty, desolate wasteland - muttering to himself about how 'all he can do is try and win the next one'.

Awesome

 

[MoBeats]

I understand not playing him week in week out, but his omission from the matchday squad at Olympiacos was baffling to say the least.



This doesn't compute with me. Our team needn't be static if it has the right players, and despite our deficiencies we do have players of technical prowess - RVP, Mata, Januzaj, Kagawa...how many times have you seen them all play together? Kagawa doesn't suit Moyes' crossing game which doesn't even work to begin with. It's pretty simple, you play your best players - not those who offer nothing in a static, predictable setup.

Agree with that.

 

[Red Stone]

Nah, in that scenario I can imagine hearing that he needs time to rebuild the entire stadium, brick by brick, before he can be properly judged.

If that doesn't work, 'sensible pundits' will insist that Moyes must be given the funds to atomically dematerialise the entire squad and then rebuild them molecule by molecule to his own specifications.

If this still doesn't provide Moyes with the exact right circumstances for his highly complex footballing vision to come to fruition, I can see Fergie assembling a doomsday device - 'sensible pundits' will frantically assure us that the world simply hasn't been pulling it's weight and that a 'massive, global clear-out' is needed in order for Moyes to have a fair go at it. 'True fans' like Drummer and Pogue will righteously agree that though they love their families, and have enjoyed life on Earth, this is simply the only realistic way forward at this point.

Moyes will be bundled into an underground bunker for his own protection, and all other life on the planet will be eradicated.

Moyes will emerge from his bunker, just as Fergie has instructed, with a football, two sets of goal posts and a homemade banner that reads "Barclay's Premier League" on it. He will mount the banner and the goal posts in the hard, dry, dead Earth and proceed to play a single match, against no-one, for the title of 'Premier League Champion of the Universe' - first goal wins.

He stoically plods up field, ball at his feet. Fast, nervous breaths as he approaches the empty opposition goal. He aims a lofted ball into the open net but just as the ball is about to cross the line, a rogue gust of post-apocalypse wind picks the ball up and blows it in the opposite direction...

Straight down the makeshift pitch it blows and straight into Moyes' own net.

Game over.

Moyes sighs and stumbles off into the empty, desolate wasteland - muttering to himself about how 'all he can do is try and win the next one'.

10/10 would read again

 

[Will Absolute]

I agree with that.


Moyes needs a chance to bring in his own players and then we'll see what he intends to do in terms of style of play. In the event that he is out of his depth, if good players like Mata are targetted and brought in I see no reason why another manager cant come in and work with what he has.

I've seen enough. If he was any kind of manager, he'd be able to play decent football with the players he's got.

 

[Empire]

I understand not playing him week in week out, but his omission from the matchday squad at Olympiacos was baffling to say the least.



This doesn't compute with me. Our team needn't be static if it has the right players, and despite our deficiencies we do have players of technical prowess - RVP, Mata, Januzaj, Kagawa...how many times have you seen them all play together? Kagawa doesn't suit Moyes' crossing game which doesn't even work to begin with. It's pretty simple, you play your best players - not those who offer nothing in a static, predictable setup.

Moyes' everton looked more like a continental team than Fergie's united. The crosses were provided by full backs performing almost as wing backs and the wide midfielders drifted around playing almost the LAM / RAM role with two holding players focused moreso on defending.

This to me suggests Moyes has a preference for such a formation and I can only assume he doesn't view the current United set up as strong enough to perform consistently with it.

Now, attacking wise we are fine however defensively I would imagine he hasn't rated the central midfield options focused on defending especially with it being Fellaini's first season and this combined with the full backs who don't perform well when exposed briefly (by interchanging forwards) or found out of position when attacking. Evra, well enough said, and Rafael is rash at times.

I can understand this:

- Moyes felt defensively we were vulnerable in the middle.
- Full backs were vulnerable when playing the Coleman / Baines role.

Therefore he decided this current set up was best.

As it is, he hasn't pulled it off and it has performed atrociously. He grossly under-estimated the ability of our wide midfielders in a traditional role to create and grossly over-estimated the ability of the defence to stay solid.

He has messed up and he has got things wrong. But I can understand his preference for a traditional 4411 over a modern 4231, at the start of the season it appeared the former might suit this side better with his assumption our defence was better than it was and our creativity would hold up.

Ferguson fooled us all, including Moyes. He probably fooled himself too, his sheer will and determination to win got that title impressively. That said, our team is in great shape in terms of youth and the future. Moyes needs to sign a few world class players and we will do just fine, hopefully he will play more like he did at Everton next season.

I would take Mourinho or Klopp and other managers like that too. Otherwise I have no problem giving Moyes another season, our performances have shocked everybody.

 

[Danny1982]

Nah, in that scenario I can imagine hearing that he needs time to rebuild the entire stadium, brick by brick, before he can be properly judged.

If that doesn't work, 'sensible pundits' will insist that Moyes must be given the funds to atomically dematerialise the entire squad and then rebuild them molecule by molecule to his own specifications.

If this still doesn't provide Moyes with the exact right circumstances for his highly complex footballing vision to come to fruition, I can see Fergie assembling a doomsday device - 'sensible pundits' will frantically assure us that the world simply hasn't been pulling it's weight and that a 'massive, global clear-out' is needed in order for Moyes to have a fair go at it. 'True fans' like Drummer and Pogue will righteously agree that though they love their families, and have enjoyed life on Earth, this is simply the only realistic way forward at this point.

Moyes will be bundled into an underground bunker for his own protection, and all other life on the planet will be eradicated.

Moyes will emerge from his bunker, just as Fergie has instructed, with a football, two sets of goal posts and a homemade banner that reads "Barclay's Premier League" on it. He will mount the banner and the goal posts in the hard, dry, dead Earth and proceed to play a single match, against no-one, for the title of 'Premier League Champion of the Universe' - first goal wins.

He stoically plods up field, ball at his feet. Fast, nervous breaths as he approaches the empty opposition goal. He aims a lofted ball into the open net but just as the ball is about to cross the line, a rogue gust of post-apocalypse wind picks the ball up and blows it in the opposite direction...

Straight down the makeshift pitch it blows and straight into Moyes' own net.

Game over.

Moyes sighs and stumbles off into the empty, desolate wasteland - muttering to himself about how 'all he can do is try and win the next one'.

 

[alastair]

Nah, in that scenario I can imagine hearing that he needs time to rebuild the entire stadium, brick by brick, before he can be properly judged.

If that doesn't work, 'sensible pundits' will insist that Moyes must be given the funds to atomically dematerialise the entire squad and then rebuild them molecule by molecule to his own specifications.

If this still doesn't provide Moyes with the exact right circumstances for his highly complex footballing vision to come to fruition, I can see Fergie assembling a doomsday device - 'sensible pundits' will frantically assure us that the world simply hasn't been pulling it's weight and that a 'massive, global clear-out' is needed in order for Moyes to have a fair go at it. 'True fans' like Drummer and Pogue will righteously agree that though they love their families, and have enjoyed life on Earth, this is simply the only realistic way forward at this point.

Moyes will be bundled into an underground bunker for his own protection, and all other life on the planet will be eradicated.

Moyes will emerge from his bunker, just as Fergie has instructed, with a football, two sets of goal posts and a homemade banner that reads "Barclay's Premier League" on it. He will mount the banner and the goal posts in the hard, dry, dead Earth and proceed to play a single match, against no-one, for the title of 'Premier League Champion of the Universe' - first goal wins.

He stoically plods up field, ball at his feet. Fast, nervous breaths as he approaches the empty opposition goal. He aims a lofted ball into the open net but just as the ball is about to cross the line, a rogue gust of post-apocalypse wind picks the ball up and blows it in the opposite direction...

Straight down the makeshift pitch it blows and straight into Moyes' own net.

Game over.

Moyes sighs and stumbles off into the empty, desolate wasteland - muttering to himself about how 'all he can do is try and win the next one'.

Sweet Jesus, we have a contender for post of the year.

 

[mattsville]

As things stand I think with the change in manager, ideas, regimens etc a lot of the players are uncomfortable with it and it has escalated to the point of lack of effort, belief and confidence. He needs to turn that mentality around so the majority of the squad have a more positive outlook towards him and then they can play with confidence and produce. In the Summer he will sign at least 4 players and compliment that with some of our own young players as well as shipping out a few, that should turn things so that there is at least a more positive feeling amongst the core of the group, from there though is anyone's guess as to how effective that will be in terms of challenging for the title as is the expectation here, but introducing mass changes notoriously has the effect of taking time even if moving in the right direction, being very optimistic I would say even if we do get the right players in it will still take time and there will be a slow start but it should pick up as the season goes on. Being pessimistic, we won't get the right players in because it will be an extremely difficult Summer window when you cannot offer CL football and because of the World Cup and if that happens we are in for another tumescent, stagnant write off of a season.

 

[Nights]

He has messed up and he has got things wrong. But I can understand his preference for a traditional 4411 over a modern 4231, at the start of the season it appeared the former might suit this side better with his assumption our defence was better than it was and our creativity would hold up.

I don't know why he would prefer the traditional 4-4-1-1 though over a 4-2-3-1 with our "shit" squad though (although if you look at our early games we were definitely playing more 4-4-2 than the 1-1 up the top - it was like the Bermuda Triangle behind our two strikers in the box). We don't have the CM powerhouses to play a 4-4-1-1, and our wingers aren't exactly world class. A 4-2-3-1 would have been a far more compact and defensively solid setup, with the back six giving the top four creative players space to create and link up.

In the end though, for all the arguments about how good a manager is, the most basic thing they have to do is that they have to be able to get the best out of a group of players, and Moyes clearly hasn't. You can argue that he needs his own team, his own players, his own staff, he needs time but how come every other top class new manager hasn't done nearly as badly as Moyes has. Was it that everyone else's squad was somehow light years ahead of our own? Was it that Fergie was somehow so superhuman that he turned a squad full of plodders into the Champions of England four times out of the last six seasons? Or was it more likely that all the other top managers have experience of taking over teams at the highest level and moulding and motivating those same players.

I remember when SAF announced his retirement and the caf was a hotbed for discussion regarding possible replacements, one of the biggest arguments against hiring an established "world class" manager was the fact that rather than offer continuity, they (Pep/Mourinho/Ancelotti etc) would break up the squad and would demand a massive transfer budget to add the players that they wanted, whereas Moyes would offer us continuity and a "steady as she goes" transition whilst keeping the net spend down to what we've been used to over the last 10 years under Fergie. Well it's been the exact opposite, and his supporter's argument for retaining Moyes and keeping the faith with him, is that he'll be able to radically overhaul the entire squad and will spend a massive amount of money doing it.

And I don't know, if I was a chairman, about to entrust and hand over the biggest capital expenditure plan that the company has put forward in quite some time, would I entrust it to someone that has ZERO experience at that level, or someone that has the CV and the credentials to show they're capable of building a team capable of challenging and winning titles/UCL etc. In Australia, we've watched QANTAS our national airline go from economic strength to becoming a joke and a shadow of it's former self in a space of 4-5 years because they appointed the wrong CEO who has consistently been outsmarted by his direct competition. Watching United under Moyes and his current backroom staff and knowing they're about to get the biggest United warchest of all time, really does make me more nervous as a United supporter than at any other point over the last 30 years of supporting this great team :/

 

[Empire]

I don't know why he would prefer the traditional 4-4-1-1 though over a 4-2-3-1 with our "shit" squad though (although if you look at our early games we were definitely playing more 4-4-2 than the 1-1 up the top - it was like the Bermuda Triangle behind our two strikers in the box). We don't have the CM powerhouses to play a 4-4-1-1, and our wingers aren't exactly world class. A 4-2-3-1 would have been a far more compact and defensively solid setup, with the back six giving the top four creative players space to create and link up.

In the very post you are replying to, I stated our squad was good, I referred to it as the team but what followed talking about the need only for a few world class signings should have made it crystal clear I was referring to our squad.

I am sorry you started your reply suggesting I called our squad "shit", but when I said our team is in great shape, I was hoping to all those that read it would be quite clear I mean't our squad is good and not 'shit' but clearly I need to work on my clarity I think. I was hoping to fairly suggest our incredibly impressive title win had a lot to do with Ferguson. I do think it is fair to claim he was worth quite a few points more than most managers would be to a team, at least last season.

Ferguson fooled us all, including Moyes. He probably fooled himself too, his sheer will and determination to win got that title impressively. That said, our team is in great shape in terms of youth and the future. Moyes needs to sign a few world class players and we will do just fine, hopefully he will play more like he did at Everton next season.

In a 4231 there is not a defensive six. The full backs fly down the flank offering another attacking option, this would leave both Evra and Rafael vulnerable. I can understand his desire to protect one full back with a hugging wide player, it's much easier when we get hit on the counter.

There is nothing wrong with at the start of the season identifying United to be vulnerable in the centre of the park and at full back.

He got it wrong but I can understand his thinking. I do feel the modern 4231 is very much so reliant on a world class DLP and world class Ball winning midfielder, we had neither. The DLP picks out the players interchanging in front and the BWM helps out for the exposed full backs.

In a 4411 he can afford for two players to sit, it is more defensive version of the formation imo especially with the wingers tracking back all the time although he did let one of them drift.

In the end though, for all the arguments about how good a manager is, the most basic thing they have to do is that they have to be able to get the best out of a group of players, and Moyes clearly hasn't. You can argue that he needs his own team, his own players, his own staff, he needs time but how come every other top class new manager hasn't done nearly as badly as Moyes has. Was it that everyone else's squad was somehow light years ahead of our own? Was it that Fergie was somehow so superhuman that he turned a squad full of plodders into the Champions of England four times out of the last six seasons? Or was it more likely that all the other top managers have experience of taking over teams at the highest level and moulding and motivating those same players.

Moyes has failed, I mentioned this. He made the wrong decisions and nobody can complain if he were sacked. I would also like to point to the very post you are replying, to where I made this quite clear therefore I'm not sure why you are suggesting I disagree with this point, people have a tendency to twist things on here so I will show you what I typed:

As it is, he hasn't pulled it off and it has performed atrociously. He grossly under-estimated the ability of our wide midfielders in a traditional role to create and grossly over-estimated the ability of the defence to stay solid.

He has messed up and he has got things wrong.

So let me clarify the misunderstanding. I'm not trying to defend his failures, he has got it wrong. He shouldn't have but he has messed up. I do honestly believe one of the reasons is the step up in games and commercial obligations from Everton to United and his desire to not just manage but be the head coach and head scout etc.

He needs to focus on managing and delegate those other responsibilities.

I can understand replacing him with Mourinho caliber manager but otherwise keep him. He has shown his potential at Everton, if he does what he did there adapted to our club and our finances then he should build at least a top four consistent side and we can replace him if or when a better manager comes along.

He has shown himself to be a good manager therefore one can only think he will learn big lessons from this season and he won't repeat his mistakes in the next.

I remember when SAF announced his retirement and the caf was a hotbed for discussion regarding possible replacements, one of the biggest arguments against hiring an established "world class" manager was the fact that rather than offer continuity, they (Pep/Mourinho/Ancelotti etc) would break up the squad and would demand a massive transfer budget to add the players that they wanted, whereas Moyes would offer us continuity and a "steady as she goes" transition whilst keeping the net spend down to what we've been used to over the last 10 years under Fergie. Well it's been the exact opposite, and his supporter's argument for retaining Moyes and keeping the faith with him, is that he'll be able to radically overhaul the entire squad and will spend a massive amount of money doing it.

Again you are twisting my words so let me show you what I typed in the very post you are replying to:

Moyes needs to sign a few world class players and we will do just fine, hopefully he will play more like he did at Everton next season.

You take that to mean radically overhaul the entire squad. Every other reader will take it to mean tweak the existing squad.

Not sure what went wrong there, perhaps I wasn't clear enough again. I guess by stating we need only a few world class players I am saying we need to replace most of our players....

And I don't know, if I was a chairman, about to entrust and hand over the biggest capital expenditure plan that the company has put forward in quite some time, would I entrust it to someone that has ZERO experience at that level, or someone that has the CV and the credentials to show they're capable of building a team capable of challenging and winning titles/UCL etc. In Australia, we've watched QANTAS our national airline go from economic strength to becoming a joke and a shadow of it's former self in a space of 4-5 years because they appointed the wrong CEO who has consistently been outsmarted by his direct competition. Watching United under Moyes and his current backroom staff and knowing they're about to get the biggest United warchest of all time, really does make me more nervous as a United supporter than at any other point over the last 30 years of supporting this great team :/

Where is the evidence they are going to hand over the biggest capital expenditure plan the company has put forward in quite some time?

(I pray to god you don't say the papers).

 

[Nights]

Moyes has failed, I mentioned this. He made the wrong decisions and nobody can complain if he were sacked. I would also like to point to the very post you are replying, to where I made this quite clear therefore I'm not sure why you are suggesting I disagree with this point, people have a tendency to twist things on here so I will show you what I typed:

Apart from the first paragraph of my post (which was addressing the quoted section of your post), the rest of the post was about Moyes in general and not what you said.

You take that to mean radically overhaul the entire squad. Every other reader will take it to mean tweak the existing squad.

Not sure what went wrong there, perhaps I wasn't clear enough again. I guess by stating we need only a few world class players I am saying we need to replace most of our players....

Where is the evidence they are going to hand over the biggest capital expenditure plan the company has put forward in quite some time?

(I pray to god you don't say the papers).

I'm talking about the fact that Moyes has repeatedly mentioned that we don't have enough quality in the squad to compete at the highest level (UCL). Unless I'm mistaken, as the biggest club in England, that should be the club's goal? Now, compare what Moyes has repeatedly said with regards to "strengthening the squad" and compare it to Fergie in the Glazer years. Even with our annual summer muppetry, we're usually never linked with the top top players (hell everyone was surprised we managed to get RVP over City), and if ever, one at most. Hell, up until Mata, our transfer record was ridiculously low compared to other elite European clubs. Have we ever brought in "a few world class players" in one summer before. Moyes has already spent more than 60 million pounds on just two players, and broken our transfer record in the process. He's out there scouting players like Kroos who to bring over to United, will mean paying mega mega dollars, the type of fees that we haven't seen at United in a while. Now, bring in a "few", say 2-3, and you're not calling that the biggest net spend we've had in pretty much forever? World class doesn't come cheap these days, especially with the sugar daddy clubs and Madrid going bonkers, not to mention we'll have to pay the Moyes/no UCL tax on top of the usual cost of the player. Everyone knows we're desparate for a CM, so we'll pay a premium. Everyone knows we're desparate for a CB, so we'll pay a premium. Everyone knows we need a LB, so we'll pay premium. Everyone knows United are desparate to get back into the UCL, so we'll be charged a premium, on top of our usual United premium. And that's just for the "two or three world class players". What about the buys that we need to fill the squad out for? the low to mid range players? Although I guess without the pressures of UCL, we probably don't need as large a squad.

Also, going by the fact that we're going to lose Rio/Vidic/Evra at the minimum, Hernandez/Kagawa/Zaha will almost certainly leave for more game time, RVP disgruntled (and half the posters in the RVP thread saying he'll leave), that's 5 possibly six players from our main squad leaving. So we'll have to replace them at the very minimum, and yet it'll just be a "tweak" to the squad?

 

[mattsville]

The biggest doubt is his style of football, what is his plan, system etc. He is quoted as saying he spoke to Bobby Charlton and was told in no uncertain terms "what it is to be a Manchester United manager" he also said he "wants to build and young and exciting team". He signs Mata. That all points in the right direction as far as we are concerned. But then you look at what is being attempted on the pitch and you wonder. Look, he is going to get the Summer, see what he does and how he goes into next season, how we set up, after the Summer he and the club have no excuses, if we are getting the same shit, nobody is going to stand for it and it will be ended promptly due to fan pressure.

 

[Empire]

Apart from the first paragraph of my post (which was addressing the quoted section of your post), the rest of the post was about Moyes in general and not what you said.




I'm talking about the fact that Moyes has repeatedly mentioned that we don't have enough quality in the squad to compete at the highest level (UCL). Unless I'm mistaken, as the biggest club in England, that should be the club's goal? Now, compare what Moyes has repeatedly said with regards to "strengthening the squad" and compare it to Fergie in the Glazer years. Even with our annual summer muppetry, we're usually never linked with the top top players (hell everyone was surprised we managed to get RVP over City), and if ever, one at most. Hell, up until Mata, our transfer record was ridiculously low compared to other elite European clubs. Have we ever brought in "a few world class players" in one summer before. Moyes has already spent more than 60 million pounds on just two players, and broken our transfer record in the process. He's out there scouting players like Kroos who to bring over to United, will mean paying mega mega dollars, the type of fees that we haven't seen at United in a while. Now, bring in a "few", say 2-3, and you're not calling that the biggest net spend we've had in pretty much forever? World class doesn't come cheap these days, especially with the sugar daddy clubs and Madrid going bonkers, not to mention we'll have to pay the Moyes/no UCL tax on top of the usual cost of the player. Everyone knows we're desparate for a CM, so we'll pay a premium. Everyone knows we're desparate for a CB, so we'll pay a premium. Everyone knows we need a LB, so we'll pay premium. Everyone knows United are desparate to get back into the UCL, so we'll be charged a premium, on top of our usual United premium. And that's just for the "two or three world class players". What about the buys that we need to fill the squad out for? the low to mid range players? Although I guess without the pressures of UCL, we probably don't need as large a squad.

You said radical overhaul of the squad. I can only imagine a radical overhaul of the squad to you means signing a few top players and not what it means to everybody else, changing much of our entire squad.

Ferguson signed RVP last year who was world class and Kagawa too who was nearly there at the time, the season before De Gea who despite his struggles was clearly one of the best keepers out there and also a player with world class potential in Phil Jones. He also signed Paul Scholes that season, even if it were on a free and even if he came out of retirement.

Also world class players or those with potential but the ability to still be first team now do not always require vast sums of cash. You used Kroos as an example of a player linked with us yet omitted (conveniently) that he was linked for £25m.

Furthermore, we will only sign if we sell some players too. Going on the last three seasons of our spend it appears a transfer budget of about £40 - 50m (net) is normal these days each season therefore if we sell £20m worth of players we have £60 - 70m to spend and if we sell £30m worth of players (this is possible) we have £70 - 80m to spend.

I don't know how the finances will be worked out, perhaps Moyes has already spent a few million from this budget on signing Mata. Either way, we are not handing any war chest over, I don't even know if we have a war chest. We are merely giving Moyes his usual transfer budget and may also allow him 100% of players sold cash. I'm not sure there is anything wrong with what we are doing here....

Also, going by the fact that we're going to lose Rio/Vidic/Evra at the minimum, Hernandez/Kagawa/Zaha will almost certainly leave for more game time, RVP disgruntled (and half the posters in the RVP thread saying he'll leave), that's 5 possibly six players from our main squad leaving. So we'll have to replace them at the very minimum, and yet it'll just be a "tweak" to the squad?

You are assuming once more, you say Zaha will leave the club to get more game time

Let me guess, he wants to play for Palace instead of United?

Woodward said, usually the club sign three players and sell three players but this season there will be one or two more. I view 4 or 5 players as a tweak to the squad and you view it as a radical overhaul. I'm not even joking when I say I am laughing in real life at the notion that signing 4 or 5 players is considered a radical overhaul to you.

I'm sure you'll agree our squad is already very big and we only have more youth players entering it. Therefore more players can leave than come in.

Mourinho signs Schurrie, Van Ginkel, Eto'o, Willian, Matic, Salah and Zouma for combined 104.3m and average of almost £15m per player and nobody is talking about a radical overhaul, in fact they are praising his performance. Moyes, according to you will sign less players probably for less money and yet it's a radical overhaul.

Mourinho plays defensive, he is a genius of this world. Moyes plays defensive, he is a bad manager.

Moyes freezes out a player he feels to be ineffective to his system and he doesn't know what he is doing yet when Mourinho does it he is a genius.

Clearly there is a difference between those two, one is winning and the other isn't. I'm not even a Moyes supporter but it is comical the reasons people on here come up with to hate.

The latest by you, Moyes signing 5 players is a radical overhaul of our squad...

I mean, Ferguson signed four players in De Gea, Young, Jones and Scholes in 2011 / 12 yet that is genius, not overhaul, it's only one one less player than your radical overhaul though.

What about Real Madrid's overhaul signing Bale, Illaramendi, Isco and Carvajal, one more and it's your radical overhaul.

Wait, Bayern last season with their overhaul won the treble, Martinez, Mandzukic, Shaiqiri and Dante, maybe Moyes' radical overhaul will do the quadruple?

Pellegrini signed Fernandinho, Navas, Negredo, Jovetic and Demichellis. He managed to complete your radical overhaul of the Manchester City squad, maybe he will win quadruple? Maybe Pellegrini sign 5 players and is genius of this world, but when Moyes wants to sign 5 players he is mojo jo jo.

 

[Shimo]

Do you think that the Chelsea or Manchester city team is comparable with uniteds?

Ferguson didn't build his success simply by buying top players. It anything , over the last 10 years united haven't been anywhere near the same league as city, Chelsea, barca , Madrid, bayern, Monaco or psg, yet we have consistently challenged for top honors.

Becoming the manager of a city or Chelsea is far easier because players are used to a change in manager, used to a change in routine (training) and it's not a huge upheaval of faith to trust in a new guy. Also players originally joined these clubs for money, in many cases (like Rvp) players join united because of the success they can get with SAF!

The united job is simply not comparable with any other in the game. I keep reading how other clubs would of sacked moyes at this stage, but why exactly does that add any weight to him being sacked?

I don't think pep would do much with this squad and I would have reservations about being convinced that other managers (Jose and ancellotti aside) could of walked in and changed the dynamics of this squad of players much better.

I believe only when moyes has had a chance to show what he can do with players who will play for him can do can he be properly judged. The problem this season has not all been tactics, it's been players under-performing and lacking in confidence. How come Everton players could perform for moyes? Not simple because they were a smaller team it's because they were his players.

I am not saying he needs to get rid of all players , just the ones who are not responding to his management like rio and perhaps Rvp. That's showing faith in him and giving him the opportunity to work with people who want to work with him.

So you are saying we have a squad full of players that just no manager in the world could work with, no manager in the world could have come in and got them playing how they wanted to. That when the team goes out there, it is not them following David Moyes directive of he wants them to setup and play, it is all their doing?

This squad has no talent in it, that it doesn't matter who it was, these guys could not be managed/trained to play in a different way? Wonder what the heck SAF saw in this bunch of nothings, with no ability to adjust. Maybe it was just that he could mind control them into playing.

If the only way for Moyes is to succeed is to get his own players then my goodness that is the clearest indication needing to go yesterday. He is a MANAGER - he manages, he should be capable of getting something out of any set of players, even ones as terrible as the whole squad we have. If the players are under performing and have had their confidence ripped from them, then it's down to the manager. Understandable if it was 1, 2 or even 3 players but, the whole damned squad - the culpability is squarely on his shoulders.

It's incredibly arrogant to think that we are not at least comparable to other clubs, we are the best club in the world but, we are not that unique. Avram freaking Grant took over for Jose Mourinho who had moulded that Chelsea team and he was still able to get them to play for him. To claim that our own situation is that different is just plain wrong.

Not sure where you get the idea that players are just used to change of routine and managers being easy for players or they get used to it. It's not but, they are professionals and most will respond when the new manager gives them something to believe in and play towards. At least so far it doesn't look like Moyes has been able to do that. Your thought is well it's not his fault because they aren't his players. Bloody hell if that was the case he should have stayed at Everton if the only way he can succeed is to have only his players.

 

[Stack]

So you are saying we have a squad full of players that just no manager in the world could work with, no manager in the world could have come in and got them playing how they wanted to. That when the team goes out there, it is not them following David Moyes directive of he wants them to setup and play, it is all their doing?

This squad has no talent in it, that it doesn't matter who it was, these guys could not be managed/trained to play in a different way? Wonder what the heck SAF saw in this bunch of nothings, with no ability to adjust. Maybe it was just that he could mind control them into playing.

If the only way for Moyes is to succeed is to get his own players then my goodness that is the clearest indication needing to go yesterday. He is a MANAGER - he manages, he should be capable of getting something out of any set of players, even ones as terrible as the whole squad we have. If the players are under performing and have had their confidence ripped from them, then it's down to the manager. Understandable if it was 1, 2 or even 3 players but, the whole damned squad - the culpability is squarely on his shoulders.

It's incredibly arrogant to think that we are not at least comparable to other clubs, we are the best club in the world but, we are not that unique. Avram freaking Grant took over for Jose Mourinho who had moulded that Chelsea team and he was still able to get them to play for him. To claim that our own situation is that different is just plain wrong.

Not sure where you get the idea that players are just used to change of routine and managers being easy for players or they get used to it. It's not but, they are professionals and most will respond when the new manager gives them something to believe in and play towards. At least so far it doesn't look like Moyes has been able to do that. Your thought is well it's not his fault because they aren't his players. Bloody hell if that was the case he should have stayed at Everton if the only way he can succeed is to have only his players.

The trouble is you are speaking in absolutes and then using that approach when comparing to other teams and managers. Its just too simplistic. There is no analysis of the sequence of events and issues that have lead to us being in our current position.
From where I sit this current position in the league and the poor quality of football is not down to one single factor, its a number of different issues and events causing our problems. Moyes being responsible for some issues, other events and problems exacerbating the situation.

 

[hp88]

Probably been posted already but there's the message from the 12th man magazine.

 

[Sultan]

Thinking this through yesterday evening I'm more a pragmatic sort of person on the issue of our manager. We've all been witnessing some very indifferent performances and results without question. Then I think, and ask myself who has the most to lose or gain by keeping or sacking Moyes? Who sees and knows more than us what's happening behind the scenes - Moyes' qualities, methods, his future plans, or his weaknesses and flaws?

The answer is simply directors who are mostly football people who then report to the Glazers. I'm hoping as a fan these people know what they are doing or if you wish to interpret my thoughts I'm burying my head in the sand.

 

[Amir]

Who sees and knows more than us what's happening behind the scenes - Moyes' qualities, methods, his future plans, or his weaknesses and flaws? The answer is simply directors who are mostly football people who then report to the Glazers.

My one weird issue with it is that the biggest of them is Sir Alex - the man who had the same job until 10 months ago. Let's say Moyes came to Man United and found a dump - squad, scouting, academy - and started to make big changes. Aren't those things Fergie should have been doing in recent years? Why hasn't he identified them previously? Or maybe that's just PR bullshit.

 

[jojojo]

Thinking this through yesterday evening I'm more a pragmatic sort of person on the issue of our manager. We've all been witnessing some very indifferent performances and results without question. Then I think, and ask myself who has the most to lose or gain by keeping or sacking Moyes? Who sees and knows more than us what's happening behind the scenes - Moyes' qualities, methods, his future plans, or his weaknesses and flaws?

The answer is simply directors who are mostly football people who then report to the Glazers. I'm hoping as a fan these people know what they are doing or if you wish to interpret my thoughts I'm burying my head in the sand.

I kind of agree with that but then these nagging doubts come into my head. Focusing on a couple of vague ideas about why the board's version of knowing what they're doing, may not be mine.

SAF is a very stubborn man, not merely a patient one, and he takes a long time to admit a mistake. He "knows where the bodies are buried" - he could hurt the Glazers if he wanted to - though whether he'd do that for Moyes I don't know. Maybe not, if the fans or the players really turned on Moyes.

The owners run a football business, not just a football team. Their criteria for success may simply be profitability, and club revenue can thrive for years without trophies. CL football may be all they need. Let's say we do spend big next summer and get back into the top 4, does anyone think they'll be spending big the next summer or looking for a manager to get the silverware flowing again. As long as he can do a value for money job, he'll be a success for them - but maybe not for us.

 

[Sultan]

My one weird issue with it is that the biggest of them is Sir Alex - the man who had the same job until 10 months ago. Let's say Moyes came to Man United and found a dump - squad, scouting, academy - and started to make big changes. Aren't those things Fergie should have been doing in recent years? Why hasn't he identified them previously? Or maybe that's just PR bullshit.

I personally think because we're not performing a lot of negatives mostly unwarranted and made-up. According to the same sources the club and Sir Alex were leading lights in world football just 8 months ago.

 

[Drummer]

So you are saying we have a squad full of players that just no manager in the world could work with, no manager in the world could have come in and got them playing how they wanted to. That when the team goes out there, it is not them following David Moyes directive of he wants them to setup and play, it is all their doing?

This squad has no talent in it, that it doesn't matter who it was, these guys could not be managed/trained to play in a different way? Wonder what the heck SAF saw in this bunch of nothings, with no ability to adjust. Maybe it was just that he could mind control them into playing.

If the only way for Moyes is to succeed is to get his own players then my goodness that is the clearest indication needing to go yesterday. He is a MANAGER - he manages, he should be capable of getting something out of any set of players, even ones as terrible as the whole squad we have. If the players are under performing and have had their confidence ripped from them, then it's down to the manager. Understandable if it was 1, 2 or even 3 players but, the whole damned squad - the culpability is squarely on his shoulders.

It's incredibly arrogant to think that we are not at least comparable to other clubs, we are the best club in the world but, we are not that unique. Avram freaking Grant took over for Jose Mourinho who had moulded that Chelsea team and he was still able to get them to play for him. To claim that our own situation is that different is just plain wrong.

Not sure where you get the idea that players are just used to change of routine and managers being easy for players or they get used to it. It's not but, they are professionals and most will respond when the new manager gives them something to believe in and play towards. At least so far it doesn't look like Moyes has been able to do that. Your thought is well it's not his fault because they aren't his players. Bloody hell if that was the case he should have stayed at Everton if the only way he can succeed is to have only his players.

You are making statements that I never said. I didn't say no manager in the world couldn't work with these players, I would certainly question if anybody could win anything with them (even Jose) as our defencive and midfield issues have only gotten worse in the year since SAF left.

I never said the squad has no talent, you either misunderstood what I said or didn't read it properly. I said its clear that he is going to have to get rid of some of the players and get his own in. If there was even only 2 or 3 senior players undermining his authority, it would be more then enough to make his job difficult to get the most out of the remainder of the team irrespective of their talent.

You say that its arrogant to think United is not comparable with other clubs and then you say in the same sentence that its the best club in the world ? You don't see the contradictory nature of your comments? Not only are you being arrogant stating that the club is the biggest in the world, you are then contradicting this point by stating that we are like every other club, so which is it?

Incidentally, you failed , once again, to grasp the point. Apart from arsenal, remind me how similar City and Chelsea are run in comparison to United?

I never said it wasn't Moye fault because they weren't his players, again you are not really reading the points I am making. Its just nowhere near as simple as you seem to think . .

 

[Drummer]

I kind of agree with that but then these nagging doubts come into my head. Focusing on a couple of vague ideas about why the board's version of knowing what they're doing, may not be mine.

SAF is a very stubborn man, not merely a patient one, and he takes a long time to admit a mistake. He "knows where the bodies are buried" - he could hurt the Glazers if he wanted to - though whether he'd do that for Moyes I don't know. Maybe not, if the fans or the players really turned on Moyes.

The owners run a football business, not just a football team. Their criteria for success may simply be profitability, and club revenue can thrive for years without trophies. CL football may be all they need. Let's say we do spend big next summer and get back into the top 4, does anyone think they'll be spending big the next summer or looking for a manager to get the silverware flowing again. As long as he can do a value for money job, he'll be a success for them - but maybe not for us.

But you can turn that around. Nobody knows if SAF is just being stubborn and refusing to admit he made a mistake with SAF or if the Glazers have any reason to stick with Moyes for any other reason then to get success for the club (what motive they would have is beyond me).

The huge problem with most "Moyes out" argument is that they make the huge presumption that SAF/Board are not seeing the performances that everybody else is and for some reason blindly supporting Moyes. There is no logical reason for SAF and the board to support Moyes if in their PROFESSIONAL opinion there is nothing to salvage from Moyes tenure.

Incidentally, in one of your earlier posts you stated that you cant accept that Moyes replaced SAF backroom staff and needs to replace a significant amount of players SAF had at the club and on the other hand SAF is right to support Moyes (ie - SAF isn't right about everything). This is a misguided view, different managers work well with different players. Just because a manager wants his own players and coaching staff, doesn't mean they are stating that the players or coaches who worked with a previous coach aren't good.

 

[Gannicus]

The daft summer transfer decisions.
The dire tactics.
The inability to inspire his players.
The odd cliches uttered after inexplicable defeats.

And yet there's even a possibility he may stay on for a second season?

 

[Skywarden]

The daft summer transfer decisions.
The dire tactics.
The inability to inspire his players.
The odd cliches uttered after inexplicable defeats.

And yet there's even a possibility he may stay on for a second season?

Yeah. The deciding factor was when the Glazers asked him if he was, was he not, the one causing the Black Death. After a frantic interrogation and Moyes pleading "not guilty" he was given another season.

 

[Buchan]

feck the begrudgers.

"Davie Moyes' Red Army"

 

[rio's upper lip]

Tactical mastermind. Looking forward to years and years of success with Moyes at the helm.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Plan A wasn't really working however the last third of the match had more promise. There is the question ofhow much of that was by design and due to our own merits rather than the circumstances, so our approach in the weeks may shed a little light on the matter.

Moyes shall need a better plan for the next three games however, quality opposition won't spurn the opportunities and territory we allowed West Brom today.

 

[FineYoungCasual]

Brilliant.

made me chuckle

Fair play.

Holy christ, this is good.

Awesome

10/10 would read again

Sweet Jesus, we have a contender for post of the year.

Thanks!

Alastair, not likely, my friend. I'm not favoured by the old guard!

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Nah, in that scenario I can imagine hearing that he needs time to rebuild the entire stadium, brick by brick, before he can be properly judged.

If that doesn't work, 'sensible pundits' will insist that Moyes must be given the funds to atomically dematerialise the entire squad and then rebuild them molecule by molecule to his own specifications.

If this still doesn't provide Moyes with the exact right circumstances for his highly complex footballing vision to come to fruition, I can see Fergie assembling a doomsday device - 'sensible pundits' will frantically assure us that the world simply hasn't been pulling it's weight and that a 'massive, global clear-out' is needed in order for Moyes to have a fair go at it. 'True fans' like Drummer and Pogue will righteously agree that though they love their families, and have enjoyed life on Earth, this is simply the only realistic way forward at this point.

Moyes will be bundled into an underground bunker for his own protection, and all other life on the planet will be eradicated.

Moyes will emerge from his bunker, just as Fergie has instructed, with a football, two sets of goal posts and a homemade banner that reads "Barclay's Premier League" on it. He will mount the banner and the goal posts in the hard, dry, dead Earth and proceed to play a single match, against no-one, for the title of 'Premier League Champion of the Universe' - first goal wins.

He stoically plods up field, ball at his feet. Fast, nervous breaths as he approaches the empty opposition goal. He aims a lofted ball into the open net but just as the ball is about to cross the line, a rogue gust of post-apocalypse wind picks the ball up and blows it in the opposite direction...

Straight down the makeshift pitch it blows and straight into Moyes' own net.

Game over.

Moyes sighs and stumbles off into the empty, desolate wasteland - muttering to himself about how 'all he can do is try and win the next one'.

 

[Sandikan]

Oh the difference a good strong away win makes to the post count on here!

That's the kind of win we should have been smashing all season. And not even playing amazingly.

I'm massively intrigued by this summer and talk of such a big spree, as our front 4 are by most people's opinion, pretty darn quality, Rooney, VP, Mata, Januzaj. De Gea is basically without debate (amazing, compared to his start), we and seem generally well covered by Smalling, Jones and Evans.

Rafael a lot of us think is really good too. And obviously Carrick has done it for years, and Fellaini cost £27m!

So, a left back is obviously a big target, and we vaguely talk about "the midfield", but where would a new player or 2 fit in?

 

[Keenst]

Oh the difference a good strong away win makes to the post count on here!

That's the kind of win we should have been smashing all season. And not even playing amazingly.

I'm massively intrigued by this summer and talk of such a big spree, as our front 4 are by most people's opinion, pretty darn quality, Rooney, VP, Mata, Januzaj. De Gea is basically without debate (amazing, compared to his start), we and seem generally well covered by Smalling, Jones and Evans.

Rafael a lot of us think is really good too. And obviously Carrick has done it for years, and Fellaini cost £27m!

So, a left back is obviously a big target, and we vaguely talk about "the midfield", but where would a new player or 2 fit in?

I don't think Carrick will feature as prominently next season. He's very good at what he does but there is better out there.

 

[Kag]

Oh the difference a good strong away win makes to the post count on here!

That's the kind of win we should have been smashing all season. And not even playing amazingly.

I'm massively intrigued by this summer and talk of such a big spree, as our front 4 are by most people's opinion, pretty darn quality, Rooney, VP, Mata, Januzaj. De Gea is basically without debate (amazing, compared to his start), we and seem generally well covered by Smalling, Jones and Evans.

Rafael a lot of us think is really good too. And obviously Carrick has done it for years, and Fellaini cost £27m!

So, a left back is obviously a big target, and we vaguely talk about "the midfield", but where would a new player or 2 fit in?

With the right manager, we could challenge for every major honour, and the only acquisitions which are imperative to do so would be a quality, creative central midfield and a left back. We will need a centre half now that Nemanja is leaving, and a shiny versatile attacker like Marco Reus would add the cherry on the cake, but in reality, we could play both attractive and winning football with the fantastic set of players we have already.

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

Nah, in that scenario I can imagine hearing that he needs time to rebuild the entire stadium, brick by brick, before he can be properly judged.

If that doesn't work, 'sensible pundits' will insist that Moyes must be given the funds to atomically dematerialise the entire squad and then rebuild them molecule by molecule to his own specifications.

If this still doesn't provide Moyes with the exact right circumstances for his highly complex footballing vision to come to fruition, I can see Fergie assembling a doomsday device - 'sensible pundits' will frantically assure us that the world simply hasn't been pulling it's weight and that a 'massive, global clear-out' is needed in order for Moyes to have a fair go at it. 'True fans' like Drummer and Pogue will righteously agree that though they love their families, and have enjoyed life on Earth, this is simply the only realistic way forward at this point.

Moyes will be bundled into an underground bunker for his own protection, and all other life on the planet will be eradicated.

Moyes will emerge from his bunker, just as Fergie has instructed, with a football, two sets of goal posts and a homemade banner that reads "Barclay's Premier League" on it. He will mount the banner and the goal posts in the hard, dry, dead Earth and proceed to play a single match, against no-one, for the title of 'Premier League Champion of the Universe' - first goal wins.

He stoically plods up field, ball at his feet. Fast, nervous breaths as he approaches the empty opposition goal. He aims a lofted ball into the open net but just as the ball is about to cross the line, a rogue gust of post-apocalypse wind picks the ball up and blows it in the opposite direction...

Straight down the makeshift pitch it blows and straight into Moyes' own net.

Game over.

Moyes sighs and stumbles off into the empty, desolate wasteland - muttering to himself about how 'all he can do is try and win the next one'.

You're good at this.

 

[Sixpence]

Nah, in that scenario I can imagine hearing that he needs time to rebuild the entire stadium, brick by brick, before he can be properly judged.

If that doesn't work, 'sensible pundits' will insist that Moyes must be given the funds to atomically dematerialise the entire squad and then rebuild them molecule by molecule to his own specifications.

If this still doesn't provide Moyes with the exact right circumstances for his highly complex footballing vision to come to fruition, I can see Fergie assembling a doomsday device - 'sensible pundits' will frantically assure us that the world simply hasn't been pulling it's weight and that a 'massive, global clear-out' is needed in order for Moyes to have a fair go at it. 'True fans' like Drummer and Pogue will righteously agree that though they love their families, and have enjoyed life on Earth, this is simply the only realistic way forward at this point.

Moyes will be bundled into an underground bunker for his own protection, and all other life on the planet will be eradicated.

Moyes will emerge from his bunker, just as Fergie has instructed, with a football, two sets of goal posts and a homemade banner that reads "Barclay's Premier League" on it. He will mount the banner and the goal posts in the hard, dry, dead Earth and proceed to play a single match, against no-one, for the title of 'Premier League Champion of the Universe' - first goal wins.

He stoically plods up field, ball at his feet. Fast, nervous breaths as he approaches the empty opposition goal. He aims a lofted ball into the open net but just as the ball is about to cross the line, a rogue gust of post-apocalypse wind picks the ball up and blows it in the opposite direction...

Straight down the makeshift pitch it blows and straight into Moyes' own net.

Game over.

Moyes sighs and stumbles off into the empty, desolate wasteland - muttering to himself about how 'all he can do is try and win the next one'.

You joke, but this will happen.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

With the right manager, we could challenge for every major honour, and the only acquisitions which are imperative to do so would be a quality, creative central midfield and a left back. We will need a centre half now that Nemanja is leaving, and a shiny versatile attacker like Marco Reus would add the cherry on the cake, but in reality, we could play both attractive and winning football with the fantastic set of players we have already.

Like we did last season, under the best manager in the history of the Premier League?

Oh wait. That didn't happen, did it?

 

[Sarni]

Like we did last season, under the best manager in the history of the Premier League?

Oh wait. That didn't happen, did it?

We played all right last season and won the league.

 

[Kag]

Like we did last season, under the best manager in the history of the Premier League?

Oh wait. That didn't happen, did it?

We won the league by 11 points. As for Ferguson, I don't think he was all that revolutionary or relevant in terms of the aesthetics during his latter years. We would attack, and we would score goals in a variety of ways, which is a credit to the diverse way in which he'd built our squad, but he retired at the right time and we were in need of a fresh, perhaps more modern approach. Even last season, too many players were out of form.

Anyway, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. I don't understand why when we discuss Moyes, people need to hark back to Sir Alex to justify what we're currently seeing. I wasn't even criticising Moyes in my post, more so praising the squad. They just need direction from the right manager. We'll know in the future, for certain, if Moyes is the man to do that.

 

[Cheesy]

Yeah, our football might have not been special last season, but it wasn't completely awful as some people would have you believe. Unlike this season, not only were we winning most games, but we also scored a really high numbers of goals in the early parts of the season. Games were exciting because of the number of goals with them. While the quality of football was far from our best under Fergie, there were plenty of entertaining games and the quality this season has definitely been much worse.