Point noted but I think it's rather the opposite to be honest. Mourinho came in moved on a couple brought in a few. But we are looking at wholesale changes here frankly. It's not set in stone but we could see the departures of - Rio, Vidic, Evra, RVP, Kagawa, Nani, Chicharito. Can't recall the last time a club shafted so many key players just to make sure the new manager gets the chance to build his own team.... So many changes to the playing staff could be destabilising. What happens if things don't work out ? I'm not saying that they wont.. But what if ? That's what worries me and many others here..
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
- Start date
- Status
Point noted but I think it's rather the opposite to be honest. Mourinho came in moved on a couple brought in a few. But we are looking at wholesale changes here frankly. It's not set in stone but we could see the departures of - Rio, Vidic, Evra, RVP, Kagawa, Nani, Chicharito. Can't recall the last time a club shafted so many key players just to make sure the new manager gets the chance to build his own team.... So many changes to the playing staff could be destabilising. What happens if things don't work out ? I'm not saying that they wont.. But what if ? That's what worries me and many others here..
The only players that there's any certainty about replacements being needed are the first three you mention. All three of them would have needed to be replaced regardless (unless, perhaps, Vidic didn't decide to piss off half way through the season)
You forgot Anderson, by the way. A player that should have been replaced fecking years ago.
I agree here. People have tried to support him, even those who didn't want him like me, but he's made it increasingly easy for those people to say, 'He's not the right man for the job.' The limp way we're being beaten is shocking and is the complete opposite of what we were under Fergie. I fail to understand how we can become so limp in such a relative short space of time. Normally, it would be a gradual process but this season it was almost immediate. He's stubborn, non-reactive and the style of football we're playing is shite. During the following month I will fear for him because if we don't show signs of improvement (I don't think we will if I'm being honest) then I feel the few supporters who are still on his side will soon not be and then it will be increasingly difficult for him to regain that support if at all.
And Giggs. But Im not sure he needs directly replacing.
This is a unique situation though - no point comparing it to any other. We haven't just lost a manager, we've lost one of (if not the) best managers ever, and the CEO. We've had the guts ripped out of the club. Its tough to get any more destabilisation (is that a word?) than we're already going through.
Worst case scenario - Moyes spends £150m and we don't get any better. Then he has to go, and the new manager has an awful lot of talent to remould. Even the worst of the doom-mongers on here has to accept that Moyes is only going after top quality.
Quotes from Gary Neviile at the start of the season.
"Neville claims the current crop have not yet reached their potential but should be ranked alongside squads from 1994, 1999 - the Treble winners - and 2008."
'The most important thing to say about this team is it's on an upward curve'
'You've got players like (David) De Gea, Rafael, (Jonny) Evans, (Chris) Smalling, (Phil) Jones, (Tom) Cleverley, (Danny) Welbeck and (Javier) Hernandez, to name eight players, who are still young and haven't reached anywhere near their peak'
'I think United are in a good place. Do they get the credit they deserve? You only get that by repeating success - it's about winning, winning and winning again.'
'This team has still not reached its potential. I'm sure there will be additions to the squad this summer so you're talking about a team on the up.'
Even Fergie himself said he left the club in a great place, I'm not saying the squad was perfect but it's not as bad as some are lead to believe. If you look through the posts at the start of the season you will find that many posters agreed that we had a great squad with a good balance of youth and experience, now however some are saying they aren't good enough, what's changed?
I agree that our football wasn't great last year but by feck it was nowhere near as bad as this season. Under Fergie you could see his vision, everybody knew what he wanted and what was expected. Any manager at the top level can do that, Mourinhio at Chelsea, Pellegrini at City, Martinez at Everton, Ancelotti at Real Madrid even Pochettino at Southampton all had their teams playing in a style that they wanted within a couple of months. All the teams mentioned have improved, all the teams mentioned have had new managers recently.
We have not only declined, but declined at a unbelievable rate. Worse yet, it doesn't look like stopping.
"Neville claims the current crop have not yet reached their potential but should be ranked alongside squads from 1994, 1999 - the Treble winners - and 2008."
'The most important thing to say about this team is it's on an upward curve'
'You've got players like (David) De Gea, Rafael, (Jonny) Evans, (Chris) Smalling, (Phil) Jones, (Tom) Cleverley, (Danny) Welbeck and (Javier) Hernandez, to name eight players, who are still young and haven't reached anywhere near their peak'
'I think United are in a good place. Do they get the credit they deserve? You only get that by repeating success - it's about winning, winning and winning again.'
'This team has still not reached its potential. I'm sure there will be additions to the squad this summer so you're talking about a team on the up.'
Even Fergie himself said he left the club in a great place, I'm not saying the squad was perfect but it's not as bad as some are lead to believe. If you look through the posts at the start of the season you will find that many posters agreed that we had a great squad with a good balance of youth and experience, now however some are saying they aren't good enough, what's changed?
I agree that our football wasn't great last year but by feck it was nowhere near as bad as this season. Under Fergie you could see his vision, everybody knew what he wanted and what was expected. Any manager at the top level can do that, Mourinhio at Chelsea, Pellegrini at City, Martinez at Everton, Ancelotti at Real Madrid even Pochettino at Southampton all had their teams playing in a style that they wanted within a couple of months. All the teams mentioned have improved, all the teams mentioned have had new managers recently.
We have not only declined, but declined at a unbelievable rate. Worse yet, it doesn't look like stopping.
That's why I said in the previous "It's not set in stone but we could see the departures of". I'm not saying all of them WILL move but there is a possibility they COULD move. Replacing 7 key squad members in 1 go has never been successfully done - ever. Even this year we can see the effect of too many arrivals in the Spurs team. And they had to replace just Bale. We MAY have to replace 7. Anderson left out intentionally BTW, it doesn't matter is he's here or there.
But will we have the resources for another remoulding if this one doesn't work out ? What if the new guy doesn't rate Felliani and Mata at the wing.. As I said before we have 360 million in debt, add 150 for new transfer and 80+ million deficit by no European competition. That may bring the debt to 500 m+.. The next manager will have his hands tied. That's what is worrying me. We have to get it right the first time, there's no going back.
Must admit for the first time I actually wanted to see him go for real was following Olympiakos. But time has healed that so I am back on the hope the feck he turns it around soon and will fully support him until he gets the bullet or he does succeed.
The end of the season cannot come soon enough.And although I do think he will go if we go out in Europe and lose to Liverpool and City, I think we might still scrape through in the CL and avoid defeat in at least one of those league games.
The end of the season cannot come soon enough.And although I do think he will go if we go out in Europe and lose to Liverpool and City, I think we might still scrape through in the CL and avoid defeat in at least one of those league games.
Agree. We need to strengthen in a few key areas and well. And obviously work on the way we play football and self belief. All the talk about replacing half the squad is extremely over the top.
I'm curious to know what this means and whether I am currently supporting him going by that view. I really want him to succeed and turn things around and if he stays next season I hope he proves everyone wrong, but I don't rate the fellow and I don't personally see a top manager in him. So am I supporting him or not?
Worst case, scenario? More like a nightmare.
Moyes has an awful lot of talent to remould yet he can't manage it, who's to say a new manager will rate the players Moyes buys as highly as he does? I've used Mata as an example before, Mourinhio didn't rate him and didn't mind selling to a rival, Moyes clearly doesn't rate Hernandez or Kagawa. There's no guarentee that a new manager will be happy with a squad Moyes has left behind, especially if the teams a flop.
I always thought that Rooney would stay for life at United, because he didn't take the chances to leave when they presented themselves. In the same vein I believe that Moyes will be in charge next season come what may, because they club haven't taken their opportunities to fire him.
What else could happen this year to change their minds? We are already facing a worst case scenario. No trophies and no CL football. Losing a couple more games isn't going to change anything.
He'll spend a lot of money this summer on quality players that don't have a Ferguson hangover, and some players will leave. Next season will be his team and everybody will be fully entitled to spit their venom if we don't perform. I myself will have run out of excuses for him, and I imagine that most other supporters that currently sit on the fence will do so as well.
What else could happen this year to change their minds? We are already facing a worst case scenario. No trophies and no CL football. Losing a couple more games isn't going to change anything.
He'll spend a lot of money this summer on quality players that don't have a Ferguson hangover, and some players will leave. Next season will be his team and everybody will be fully entitled to spit their venom if we don't perform. I myself will have run out of excuses for him, and I imagine that most other supporters that currently sit on the fence will do so as well.
This. Although I would say "will fully support him until he gets the bullet, succeeds or until the next time watching us play is like witnessing Moyes plunge his fist into my chest, rip our my heart and defecate on it publicly, the last convulsing beats causing the faeces to wobble in a tragically comic manner."
In which case there may be another brief hiatus.
agreed. I don't think any top team has ever bought 8 players in one go have they? If it happened then I'd presume it would take a season or two for the team to gel!!
You're supporting the club. If Moyes wins the team wins. No one should want Moyes to fail as it will mean the club has failed. It looks like he is failing and at an alarming rate, therefore many want him out.
Spurs? It was close to 8 anyway I think.
That is true. One horrific season is bad, but it's not that huge a deal in the grand scheme of things. But him spending big and it still not working out could potentially be very dangerous.
The board have surely got to take all of this into account though. We're not Chelsea or City who can get away with throwing money around, saddling ourselves with enormous wages and still struggling. I think if Moyes stays we might just see the higher ups playing a part in approving his bigger signings.
Nah I see a very real scenario of people just saying that it takes time to mould the team and needs another season for them to gel.
Mata isn't a good example. Chelsea made a handsome profit on him. My point was largely from a financial perspective.
I would hope that United will be shrewd with their signings this summer. We don't want to be saddled with any Ashley Youngs, a mainly average player on £100k+ a week. We have no hope of selling him. If we get the players that Moyes is looking for, we aren't going to be burdened with any deadwood.
Also, since we've afforded Moyes so many liberties shouldn't we give the same leeway to the next manager. Shouldn't he be allowed to rebuild his own team.. It would be hypocritical not to let him..
What's the most players City ever bought in one go?
For quite a few months I have been of the opinion if he is sacked I certainly wont complain and I will understand a club our size will have run out of patience.
But the "what if" thing wont go away - If he turns it around and we win something next season it will go down as an amazing moment.
I like David Moyes,and I always have. I always considered him a good manager and felt it was deserved that he was often spoken about as Fergies replacement. I think I would be happier for him more than anyone if he pulls through this against these odds.
I think thats what I would call supporting him.
If/when Old Trafford turns on him they will have no choice but to fire him.
Agree. I think he is safe when it comes to being our manager for next season. If he had to go it probably would have happened already. Unless the cl is the supposed last straw but I doubt it.
Next season will the one where the heat will be on him from the board to show results. He'll basically have to deliver a proper title challenge IMO, which would be fair.
You don't think Moyes needs approval on signings? I guarantee that he does. No business lets middle-management spend millions on anything without sign-off.
Seven I guess.. Toure, Silva, Dzeko, Balotelli, Kolarov, Milner, Boateng all in one window.
Agreed. None of this 'back in the top 4' bullshit. For me, he has to be challenging for the title next season.
So I'm not supporting him or am I?
I do consider him a good manager but never thought he was good enough for united and hence never wasted him. But whilst he's here ill always want him to be successful although I don't rate him. I mean, it's hardly like I can change my opinion on what I think his abilities are based on what he's shown for us so far.
I agree he wont go this season, but there are a couple of potential triggers.
1) Our official defenestration from the CL. We are still technically in it, so there is one more thing left for Moyes to play for, after which - maybe - they could call time.
2) Lining up a replacement. Maybe they dont want to fire him until they know what comes next and are working on that? Probably clutching at straws here, usually it isnt an issue, they sack the manager and say a new one will be announced in due course. Still, maybe that's not "The United Way" TM.
1) Our official defenestration from the CL. We are still technically in it, so there is one more thing left for Moyes to play for, after which - maybe - they could call time.
2) Lining up a replacement. Maybe they dont want to fire him until they know what comes next and are working on that? Probably clutching at straws here, usually it isnt an issue, they sack the manager and say a new one will be announced in due course. Still, maybe that's not "The United Way" TM.
Well, there's surely a procedural sign off that exists too which is what I'm guessing fergie faced. I doubt the board would actually refuse his choice of player unless it was outside the financial constraints, which he'd know beforehand anyway.
I've always thought of united as an old school club where the manager has completely control and assume Moyes has the same situation. Where the financial limits are set and then the manager is allowed complete control to work within it, with no one casting judgment on his choice.
I could be wrong.
A few of those were the january window I think. Dzeko was for sure.
Well, Van Haal seems to have decided to work in England next season and people consider him a quality manger. So there's an option right there.
Id say that would be the case for Moyes, yes. I never felt like there was anything so formal with SAF (under the Glazers). He just went to Glazer (via Gill) and said "I want this player" and then Gill went and tried to make it happen. For all the talk of having x to spend per season, we never seemed to adhere to it, we could be under for several years, and over one year... I think SAF policed himself quite well in that regard which probably came from experience.
Oh yeah. Thanks for pointing that out. So even City haven't changed 7 key players in 1 window......
For me, all I would ever expect from supporters is to be fair to him. He inherited the champions and now we are seventh. There is no disputing that it has been a horrible season.
Is David Moyes an absolute catastrophe of a manager who is so bad that he will single-handedly ruin a really good team in one season? No, of course he isn't, or he would have never gotten anywhere near the job. I think there are so many different factors that have led to this season that it's hugely unfair to blame it all on one person.
We could get 7 in one go and be okay but not seven first teamers. That just sounds way too many to not cause disruption. 7 with 3 or 4 young low risk talents is still okay. I have faith in our core, we need some key high quality players in important positions IMO, and well be in a cracking position. Then again, I think were already quality wise in a very good position so there's that.
Yes, his name gets mentioned a lot. Maybe. Maybe Woodward is trying to haggle down his wages even as we speak.
I agree with that.
The players Moyes has been targetting, in my opinion, makes things look a lot more promising. A lot of armchair Mourinho's moaning that we havnet "evolved" as a side in terms of our style of play, need to look at what Moyes has. A decent squad perhaps, but not over burdened with quality throughout.
Fellaini divides the fans but I can see why he was brought in. Mata was arguably Chelsea's best player over the last couple of years and one of the best performers in the PL - he is also a very technically gifted player.
Moyes needs a chance to bring in his own players and then we'll see what he intends to do in terms of style of play. In the event that he is out of his depth, if good players like Mata are targetted and brought in I see no reason why another manager cant come in and work with what he has.
If you want I could use Carroll or Downing.
I used Mata as an example as he not only an exceptional talent but was Chelsea's player of the year for two years running, yet he wasn't wanted by the new manager. It doesn't matter if they made a profit on him, it's not going to be the case every time. If we signed 5 players on big contracts we could have 5 Ashley Young scenarios on our hands, there is no guarantee that whoever Moyes buys is going to be wanted or played by a new manager, none. If they are going to give Moyes the money he's here for another season.
RE the Moyes message - if there's one thing that I think has undermined him in a subtle way since the beginning, its repe
Van Gaal is divisive and his spells at Bayern and Barca both ended in tears. If the Board were up for such a manager they'd have gone for Mourinho in the first place.
Wouldn't be my first choice for a long term manager. But he would have us playing good football. Perhaps that's enough right now.
Van Gaal is divisive and his spells at Bayern and Barca both ended in tears. If the Board were up for such a manager they'd have gone for Mourinho in the first place.
Wouldn't be my first choice for a long term manager. But he would have us playing good football. Perhaps that's enough right now.
- Status