Drawing on fake eyebrows should be punishable by death, not just sacking.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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The moyes out brigade have made up their minds about the manager and I have noticed that they aren't interested in discussing this topic if a person wants anything other then "moyes out".
For those who are supporting moyes, like myself (a united fan), I've explained many times why I feel he deserves the summer to get things right.
One of the stupidest comments I have read is people talking about beautiful football. This bunch of players played effective football under SAF, but it was most certainly not beautiful. They were just as hard to watch at times, thedifference being they were playing with confidence in a stable club.
What can't be argued is that moyes will not win anything with SAF bunch of players. The big question is , can he succeed with his own?
Fans talk about what they have seen thus far is the basis of their views which is normal but how are they qualified to judge him? Oh, they watch football therefore they know better then those in the game who think the gravity of the job moyes has , goes far beyond that which most thought.
If my life depended on and I was asked who I would like to follow in the moyes debate, SAF or the vast majority of fans who want him out, I would choose SAF every day of the week. He irrefutably knows more then those in the terraces.
This does not guarantee success, but I believe SAF will be a better judge of if or when moyes project is not working out. Incidentally I think many united fans are shocked at the state of the team and just panicking! The last people I would follow in any situation is somebody losing their head in rough times!
For those who are supporting moyes, like myself (a united fan), I've explained many times why I feel he deserves the summer to get things right.
One of the stupidest comments I have read is people talking about beautiful football. This bunch of players played effective football under SAF, but it was most certainly not beautiful. They were just as hard to watch at times, thedifference being they were playing with confidence in a stable club.
What can't be argued is that moyes will not win anything with SAF bunch of players. The big question is , can he succeed with his own?
Fans talk about what they have seen thus far is the basis of their views which is normal but how are they qualified to judge him? Oh, they watch football therefore they know better then those in the game who think the gravity of the job moyes has , goes far beyond that which most thought.
If my life depended on and I was asked who I would like to follow in the moyes debate, SAF or the vast majority of fans who want him out, I would choose SAF every day of the week. He irrefutably knows more then those in the terraces.
This does not guarantee success, but I believe SAF will be a better judge of if or when moyes project is not working out. Incidentally I think many united fans are shocked at the state of the team and just panicking! The last people I would follow in any situation is somebody losing their head in rough times!
Sorry but that's a ludicrous suggestion. Absolutely barmy.
I'm not even backing him particularly enthusiastically. I happen to spend most of my time on here getting worked up about unfair or badly thought through criticism (because this place is infested with it) yet almost no time pointing out why he's the right man for the job or talking up our long term prospects under him. My own stance has always been to reserve judgement, good or bad, until I think he's had a fair crack of the whip. He hasn't reached that point yet but, so far, there's been almost nothing positive to note.I do believe that it's still possible for him to turn things round but the prospect of this happening is a lot more remote now than it was a few months back. It's definitely not impossible though.
Anyway, if being proved right was all that mattered to me I'd back a better horse than David fecking Moyes!
If you are suggesting he might benefit from a bit of a whipping Im imagine there would be many nods of agreement reading that.
I'd love to come back with a racing analogy about heavy going and something to do with horses that start slowly and finish strong but I don't know enough about the sport to get it even vaguely right. Pity really.
The only letter I want him writing is a resignation one.
You can't deny though that some of the people who insist we must keep him are no more interested in discussion than others. Some think he should be given two years no matter what, others refuse to judge him until he 'builds his own team'. Do the things we see en route do not matter? That doesn't leave any room for discussion either. Maybe we should all take a break and come back to watching United when he's done....
Fergie's football, at times was exciting - less so in recent years. It was rarely beautiful, I'll give you that. But part of reason Fergie's retirement was also an opportunity was exactly that - the chance to evolve our football. I really doubt we brought someone capable of that.
Well, that's the game. According to this, fans can never judge anything. Some football fans, those people who have followed the game for years and decades sometimes, do actually know what they are talking about. They may not know what happens behind the scenes, but they identify mistakes when they see them.
A few years ago, I'd have said yes. I'm less confident with the Ferguson of recent years. The one who backs every manager who may lose/has lost his job, has shown incredible leniency towards players who in the past would have been out the door far quicker and has let the midfield just get worse and worse. Sometimes change is tougher for older people. I know we'd all like to think Fergie is invincible, but he's not. He himself admitted he's mellowed as time passed. Maybe other things have changed as well and not for the better.
Stick to hipster carpenters.
if he turns it around, he turns it around. it doesn't mean the criticisms he faced in our current position now all become void. The concerns are very real but he has a chance to change it around.
Judging things as you see them is fine too. It's weird hearing people say "well you can't judge him yet because of this this and this"..while there's hope you can always extend the "well you cant judge him yet" logic. At some point you have to draw the line and it's a talent to know when it's the right time to step in and say enough is enough.
my stance hasn't changed from giving him til next january but it wanes with each passing game
I didn't mention you to be fair, but to say it's a ludicrous suggestion that some posters are sitting on the fence just so they can take the moral high ground is way off the mark.
I agree that there is a lot of unfair criticism thrown at Moyes, yesterday's letter being one of them, likewise I believe some posters refuse to post what they truly feel in case Moyes turns it around in the long run.
lets see what happens on the pitch...thats what it will come down to in the end
It's just bollocks like "and we've spent 70m" which sucks me back into this debate. It's a throwaway comment to make Moyes look bad that doesn't even stand up to a moment's scrutiny.
That money went on Fellaini - who's played a handful of games, most of them while carrying an injury - and Mata; who's played even fewer games. We've actually got 100% winning record from the one and only game of football in which that "70m" of investment both started.
Which is not getting into the maths fail of adding 27m + 37m to get 70m. I mean ffs...
That money went on Fellaini - who's played a handful of games, most of them while carrying an injury - and Mata; who's played even fewer games. We've actually got 100% winning record from the one and only game of football in which that "70m" of investment both started.
Which is not getting into the maths fail of adding 27m + 37m to get 70m. I mean ffs...
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Aye... don't get me wrong, one short letter hasn't made me do a 180 on my thoughts on Moyes, I'd rather he just get criticised for the things that deserve criticism!
I think an important factor in people's current views is the fact that most were thorughly underwhelmed and unconvinced even before a ball was kicked. I was initially in that camp myself, but then got caught up in the romanticism for a while and switched to the 'uphold our traditions' and 'back the manager' ideology. There are several grievances I had in the latter part of Fergie's reign, and I welcomed him stepping aside, not disrespectfully so, but because at his age it was always coming anyway, and I was excited to see a new direction for the team. A modernisation of United basically. It then turned out that that was the very thing our heirarchy were most against, and opted for the one appointment that was supposed to guarantee nothing changed. That in itself disappointed me.
I was also not amongst those who were completely unconcerned by our shocking results/performances in pre-season either. It put out early alarm bells for me. Then came the Swansea game on day 1 where we not only got one of our best PL results this season, but also played well. That firmly encouraged me and, coupled with reading Fergie's book in September, renewed my determination to back Moyes despite what was happening on the pitch.
Since the turn of the year though, I have started to question the logic of unwavering support. Are we saying that it is impossible for Moyes to fail? If not, then what constitutes failure? In fact, I've said that all season on here, speaking against this 'free pass' he's seemingly been given for a year. I've challenged other posters backing him to tell me a point at which we can say he has failed. Even if we don't expect him to win the League, perhaps some don't expect him to make top 4, but there must be means of measuring whether this year has been a success or failure even for him.
I think another key factor that has tested my faith in Moyes came from us signing Fellaini. We've begged and begged for quality to be added to the middle, and I think the only consolation of not buying a midfielder for all these years is that there was still always room in the team to add a top quality one. The vacancy remained. Then we spent near £30m on Fellaini. The price tag implied to me that he would be a first XI regular, and my view was that he was not the player we have waited for for all these years. Hence starting the clock again for another few years which it would take before he's been 'given a chance' etc and ultimately removed from the team.
Right now, my faith has been restored due to us not playing of late. But I am on the ropes I will concede. My heart is backing Moyes but my head sees absolutely no reason to. I would not be sorry if I woke up to news he was sacked, as we are probbly currently getting the complete minimum that this group of players is capable of. A new man could only improve us.
I was also not amongst those who were completely unconcerned by our shocking results/performances in pre-season either. It put out early alarm bells for me. Then came the Swansea game on day 1 where we not only got one of our best PL results this season, but also played well. That firmly encouraged me and, coupled with reading Fergie's book in September, renewed my determination to back Moyes despite what was happening on the pitch.
Since the turn of the year though, I have started to question the logic of unwavering support. Are we saying that it is impossible for Moyes to fail? If not, then what constitutes failure? In fact, I've said that all season on here, speaking against this 'free pass' he's seemingly been given for a year. I've challenged other posters backing him to tell me a point at which we can say he has failed. Even if we don't expect him to win the League, perhaps some don't expect him to make top 4, but there must be means of measuring whether this year has been a success or failure even for him.
I think another key factor that has tested my faith in Moyes came from us signing Fellaini. We've begged and begged for quality to be added to the middle, and I think the only consolation of not buying a midfielder for all these years is that there was still always room in the team to add a top quality one. The vacancy remained. Then we spent near £30m on Fellaini. The price tag implied to me that he would be a first XI regular, and my view was that he was not the player we have waited for for all these years. Hence starting the clock again for another few years which it would take before he's been 'given a chance' etc and ultimately removed from the team.
Right now, my faith has been restored due to us not playing of late. But I am on the ropes I will concede. My heart is backing Moyes but my head sees absolutely no reason to. I would not be sorry if I woke up to news he was sacked, as we are probbly currently getting the complete minimum that this group of players is capable of. A new man could only improve us.
certainly. i havent paid attention to this thread in much detail but from what i've seen, most of the time he seems to be getting deserved criticism. when it comes to the blame game, i go in circles though. hard for me to lay all the blame at one man's feet.
Gosh Drummer, is there no post of yours that is not based on these statements?!
And by the way, "For those who are supporting moyes, like myself (a united fan)"... So are we playing the loyalty card now? Are the Moyes fans getting that desperate? Or is that actually why you're defending Moyes (to look like a loyal fan)?
He also said he left the club in a great place. Gary Neville thought our squad was as good as the 94, 99, 08 squads. So someone has to be talking through their arse.
All the above.
Very true. The majority of debate surrounding Moyes' inadequacies has been reasonable.
That letter isn't bad really, but it depends how we play tomorrow really & what the team selection is against Olympiacos (sp).
If it's the same old lack lustre performance & then Valencia & Young in the CL, well it's all just rhetoric then.
I was hopeful after the break in Dubai that we would see a reaction from the players, and now they've had another decent period of soul searching to sort things out, I expect a marked improvement.
Lets see how the performances/team selections etc pan out over the next couple of weeks.
If it's the same old lack lustre performance & then Valencia & Young in the CL, well it's all just rhetoric then.
I was hopeful after the break in Dubai that we would see a reaction from the players, and now they've had another decent period of soul searching to sort things out, I expect a marked improvement.
Lets see how the performances/team selections etc pan out over the next couple of weeks.
Gosh, is there any moyes out arguments that doesn't involve the simple argument - "I don't like what I see therefore he's not good enough"?
I said I was a united fan because vocal moyes out people on this forum are suggesting that only rival fans voted to support moyes, not to look anymore a loyal fan!
It's easy to support players and managers when things are going well. Fans , certainly in this case, have little foresight or vision to awknowledge that just because moyes cannot succeed with players loyal to SAF , it doesn't mean he's not good enough if he gets his own players in. There is also a broad assumption made that other top managers could succeed with these players which completely ignores the situation in modern day football where most of these managers would be in and out of clubs no more then three years.
United has had one manager in 3 decades, so to expect the same results from a journeyman manager coming into a club pretty much built by SAF, is ignorant at best.
Defaulting to the wisdom of SAF simply doesn't suit the moyes out brigade because his opinions have far more credibility and experience in this discussion.
People don't have to see anything at all from moyes to support him and they don't need to explain it to people trying to bully everybody into their line of thinking. Moyes has the support of the board and by extension SAF, that's the only thing that matters and it's a far more reasonable reason to support moyes as opposed to "I don't like what I see" from fans who have zero insight into what goes on behind the scenes.
That's true, Fellaini and Mata have barely been a factor in our season. Having said that, the money has been spent, and yet people are still talking about us needing 100m and even more to make us competitive again. That's a heck of an investment, considering the fact we were competitive before...
I have to admit, I really don't understand the "It's not working with someone else's team so it won't work with his own squad." point of view. Seems a bit backwards, unless somebody wants to enlighten me?
Preferably one at a time though if you do.
Preferably one at a time though if you do.
I just can't the whole 'he needs to build his own team in order to be judged' theme. What about getting something good out of what you've got? The only way I can accept those struggles is if you try to get that team to play in a way that's just not suited to them and therefore requires a big change in the squad. Is that the situation with us? Doubtful...
With the players available he should be able to produce something regardless on whether they are his players or not. These are players he would have dreamt of working with all his career a higher calibur of ability than he has ever seen. He wont ever be in a position to lose all of Fergie's players and you cant expect every manager to build their own team its just not reasonable or feasible for any club.
Do you think that the Chelsea or Manchester city team is comparable with uniteds?
Ferguson didn't build his success simply by buying top players. It anything , over the last 10 years united haven't been anywhere near the same league as city, Chelsea, barca , Madrid, bayern, Monaco or psg, yet we have consistently challenged for top honors.
Becoming the manager of a city or Chelsea is far easier because players are used to a change in manager, used to a change in routine (training) and it's not a huge upheaval of faith to trust in a new guy. Also players originally joined these clubs for money, in many cases (like Rvp) players join united because of the success they can get with SAF!
The united job is simply not comparable with any other in the game. I keep reading how other clubs would of sacked moyes at this stage, but why exactly does that add any weight to him being sacked?
I don't think pep would do much with this squad and I would have reservations about being convinced that other managers (Jose and ancellotti aside) could of walked in and changed the dynamics of this squad of players much better.
I believe only when moyes has had a chance to show what he can do with players who will play for him can do can he be properly judged. The problem this season has not all been tactics, it's been players under-performing and lacking in confidence. How come Everton players could perform for moyes? Not simple because they were a smaller team it's because they were his players.
I am not saying he needs to get rid of all players , just the ones who are not responding to his management like rio and perhaps Rvp. That's showing faith in him and giving him the opportunity to work with people who want to work with him.
Well managers are usually expected to work with the existing players and get the best out of them. No club replaces 20+ players when a new manager comes in. Not even Real Madrid. Giving a manager 3+ years to replace the entire squad and make it his own without any indication that he's capable of getting the best out of top players looks like insanity from where I'm sitting.
Still not convinced.
The line about "you can't expect every manager to build their own team" is particularly laughable. You're of course partially right, but you're describing an interim manager.
What don't you understand about it?
WTF?
Not anywhere near the same league! Unless you mean literally - I mean we're clearly not in Ligue 1 or in the Bundesliga -, then it's a load of bollocks.
Much better explanation, cheers.
I guess it's just down to opinion then. It's "earn your squad" vs "build your squad then get judged". I can understand the point of view much better even though I disagree.
Who said 3+ years to replace an entire squad? I would expect some players to remain.
Evra, vidic and rio are three of the main 4 defenders of Fergies last 7 years. They have to be replaced.
Most united fans have been giving out the pay about uniteds cm for years. Most united fans give out about young and Valencia.
That's at least 6-7 starting positions on the team that most fans, with or without ferguson would of been concerned about.
It's not moyes fault that jones ,
Evans and smelling are prone to injuries.
He's inherited these problems,
Among the many other issues with replacing SAF and trying to gain the confidence of the team.
I must say this whole complete rebuild business does make me nervous. Id like to see us bring in 3 or 4 players this summer: a new CB, RB and CM (x2 if possible, but 1 very good one would suffice).
I dont see any reason to rebuild the team in the forward positions because frankly I think the players we have are already outstanding. I cant believe Kagawa hasnt got more to give, we need to coax that out. Chicharito is a great 4th striker to have, we need to manage him better to keep him happy. OK we could probably use a new winger and let one or two of ours go, Valencia and/or Young, but if we evolve our style of play Im not sure the need is desperate, between Nani and Januzaj we have options, and Young (for example) is a decent enough squad player to have if we want to try something different.
I dont see any reason to rebuild the team in the forward positions because frankly I think the players we have are already outstanding. I cant believe Kagawa hasnt got more to give, we need to coax that out. Chicharito is a great 4th striker to have, we need to manage him better to keep him happy. OK we could probably use a new winger and let one or two of ours go, Valencia and/or Young, but if we evolve our style of play Im not sure the need is desperate, between Nani and Januzaj we have options, and Young (for example) is a decent enough squad player to have if we want to try something different.
Yeah, it pretty much comes down to that. I do think that it's actually the sugar daddy clubs who can afford the "build your squad then get judged" approach because they can throw money at the problem and indulge the manager's every wish. They obviously don't go with that approach though. For us, with our debt, it's a dangerous route.
Yeah, agreed. 3 or 4 new signings in the summer would be fine. I'm hoping/assuming that all the stuff in the press about 8 new players is just journos getting a bit carried away.
The problem with allowing a manager to completely re-shape a team using expensive parts is that if it fails, the club is financially set back by atleast 5 years. We simply can't afford to go wrong having 360 million in outstanding debt. A couple hundred spent on transfers and 2 seasons out of Europe we'll see that debt balloon to 500 million+.
Yeah, this. Though I'd rather sign an LB than an RB. The CB doesn't even have to be top class, just someone reliable, a Mertesacker type signing if you will.
A problem that every club faces, with every new manager. So far, the "re-build" carried out by Moyes is a lot less radical than what you would see at the vast majority of other big clubs under a new manager. Obviously, if he loses the run of himself in summer then the stakes get that bit higher.
The Kenny Dalgish splurge is the prototype to avoid.
Christ, that was even more awful than it appeared at the time.
Sorry, I meant LB. Assuming Evra goes, a new LB.
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