Moyes So Far!

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Article from the Guardian on Saturday, apologies if it's already been posted...

http://gu.com/p/3n7db

Manchester United have stopped working under David Moyes

The club will kill the manager with kindness, right up until they decide the whole episode has been a mistake - Paul Wilson

The Manchester United manager, David Moyes, reacts during the Champions League last-16 first leg defeat at Olympiakos. Photograph: Michael Regan/Getty Images
This should be one of Manchester United's better weekends in a difficult season. They have no game. When hostilities resume on SaturdayDavid Moyes and his beleaguered players will find themselves at thequenelle-free zone of West Bromwich Albion, which, by an unhappy coincidence, is where Sir Alex Ferguson took his bows at the end of last season, when a highly untypical 5-5 draw was put down to the champions being either demob happy or distracted by the emotions surrounding the great helmsman's departure.


Ferguson had made his decision on the succession by then. The chosen one was wrapping up the season with Everton at Stamford Bridge and preparing himself for his first public appearances in a Manchester United blazer. It seemed a sound enough plan. Bathed in May sunshine at The Hawthorns, Ferguson could have had no inkling of how suddenly and spectacularly it would start to go wrong. United were a winning machine, an institution at the top level of English football, a champion club with unimpeachable kudos that leading players wanted to join. All you had to do to keep up the steady run of success was appoint a competent manager – Moyes was certainly that – and make sure the club understood that he might not immediately replicate Ferguson but would get there if granted enough time.


Ostensibly the club are still sticking to that line, but what was not so easy to envisage in May was the extent to which good intentions would be undermined by rank performances. The players should take a proportion of the blame for events on the pitch, but the task of a manager is to get the best out of his players – an area in which Ferguson excelled to an extent only now being recognised – and if Moyes cannot supervise a more recognisable impression of a football team than the one that turned up in Athens in midweek it is legitimate to question the point of having him around. While all managers lose games, some games are lost in a way that reflects poorly on the manager, and to put it as kindly as possible Moyes is clearly not having the effect on his players that José Mourinho is at Chelsea or Brendan Rodgers at Liverpool.


United are backing him for now, of course they are, they will continue to kill him with kindness right up to the point where they unplug the support mechanism and decide that the whole episode has been a mistake. That, in turn, involves acceptance that Ferguson might have made an error of judgment, which is why Moyes is getting to play the dangling man for longer than most other managers would be permitted. But no matter how compassionate the club wants to be, no matter how much it reveres Ferguson and hopes to see his planned legacy come to fruition, a decision will have to be made soon because Manchester United has stopped working. Moyes is not just experiencing difficulty turning the ocean liner around, he has the vessel headed for the shore. While Wayne Rooney has been placated at extraordinary expense, Robin van Persie is now sounding mutinous. It may be a while before the inoffensive Juan Mata does the same, but the £37m signing's initial impact has been negligible and his move to Manchester has not resulted in a recall to the Spain squad. Marouane Fellaini, Moyes's other major signing, was not considered worth an outing against Olympiakos, while the talented Adnan Januzaj was inexplicably left out in favour of Ashley Young and Tom Cleverley.


None of this would matter too much were there any signs of improvement or progress, some hint that Moyes has a plan in mind or is working steadily towards an achievable goal, but he responds to each new humiliation with the same perplexed expression of pain and surprise that the supporters are beginning to adopt. The rather lofty suggestion from earlier in the season that United could afford to miss out on the Champions League once in a while has now been replaced by the stark realisation that if they carry on in this manner they might never get back in. They will certainly find it harder to attract the best players once out of that elite, and could even struggle to keep hold of the good ones already at the club. While it may be the case that United have accepted the need for a thorough overhaul and are prepared to buy big in summer, Moyes is not necessarily the man they would want spending their money and neither does he project the sort of magnetic personality that players are drawn towards.


The new United manager may never be able to replicate the old one, even with an infinite amount of time. The infinite number of monkeys with typewriters busy on the Hamlet script might get there first.


Not that unlimited time is ever available in football anyway, thoughts at a club of United's standing are bound to turn to damage limitation. For if Moyes is not the man to run United in the way Ferguson thought he could, time alone is not going to come to his rescue and could easily make things worse. The statisticians who keep claiming that Moyes has actually made a better start to his United career than Ferguson, winning 22 of his first 41 games against 17 by his predecessor, are missing a couple of important points. The first is that Ferguson took over a team of drinkers who were struggling at the wrong end of the table, whereas Moyes inherited a side that won the league by 11 points. The second is that Ferguson was given time because he appeared to know where he wanted to go and how to get there, even if results did not immediately improve, and having tried most alternatives the United directors were at their wits' end as to where to look for someone else. That is vastly different from the present situation, which has come about because with practically the whole of the coaching profession available for interview but disregarded, United plumped for a manager who seems to be at his own wits' end far too often.
 
I doubt Mourinho would have kept them on. I think he'd have made a statement. Past is the past, I want more. Something like that. Brought his own people and motivated those players.
Mourinho has been successful at enough top clubs to know what he's doing. Our current manager is a clown.
 
According to RMC, Moyes is in the Stade de France to watch France play Holland.

Could be watching Greizmann, Mangala or maybe RVP and getting some tips in how to play him!
Any other targets?
 
According to RMC, Moyes is in the Stade de France to watch France play Holland.

Could be watching Greizmann, Mangala or maybe RVP and getting some tips in how to play him!
Any other targets?

Cillessen, Van der Wiel, Vlaar, Martins Indi, Blind, Strootman, Clasie, Promes, Sneijder, Boetius, Van Persie.

Vs

Lloris, Debuchy, Mangala, Varane, Evra, Pogba, Matuidi, Cabaye, Valbuena, Griezmann, Benzema.

Quite a few familiar names there. Pogba, Griezmann and Strootman perhaps.
Varane is looking for a new contract - Chelsea are sniffing.
Benzema is looking for a new contract.

Maybe this is the year we finally buy Sneidjer.
 
What wrong are you referring to?
Being top of the league, we don't like that here. We prefer to languish around midtable (despite us all predicting us to be at least top four in threads at the start of the season, laffing off people suggesting anything lower, we've decided it suits our argument and goal of protecting the Great Scot of the Working Class to say our squad was always only good enough for our current position) some good old adversity and Scottish grit to cross our way back into the top four sometime soon... but if we can offload a few gloryhunters and muppets, we wouldn't mind the manager to take us into the Dark Ages and become a nothing club for the next 20 years.
We are proud to be fierce reds and spit fire at disbelievers. Fayaaa.
 
According to RMC, Moyes is in the Stade de France to watch France play Holland.

Could be watching Greizmann, Mangala or maybe RVP and getting some tips in how to play him!
Any other targets?

I thought he'd have been at Wembley getting some pointers from Hodgson.
 
Cillessen, Van der Wiel, Vlaar, Martins Indi, Blind, Strootman, Clasie, Promes, Sneijder, Boetius, Van Persie.

Vs

Lloris, Debuchy, Mangala, Varane, Evra, Pogba, Matuidi, Cabaye, Valbuena, Griezmann, Benzema.

Quite a few familiar names there. Pogba, Griezmann and Strootman perhaps.
Varane is looking for a new contract - Chelsea are sniffing.
Benzema is looking for a new contract.

Maybe this is the year we finally buy Sneidjer.
No way would Real Madrid let go Varane. No chance. Yet, if he was to anywhere it would manutd as they chased him before real madrid came. Zidane convinced him.
 
Anyone watching the England match tonight ? It held amazing similarities to our situation, plenty of form players on the field no less than 5 Liverpool starters, yet the only one looking comfortable was Sterling and he has the vigour of a debut and youth. It felt vert much like watching Moyeschester united, good players looking bizarrely toothless, Sturridge scored but for the large part was drifting, defensively an open book and seemingly in control without threat. It bore striking resemblances to our season and yet with players who have been tearing up the league......Perhaps some form of management issue hummmmmmmmmm.
 
Yup, England fortunate to not concede extremely soft goals on the counter - similar to a lot we've conceded this year too. Although there's quite a difference in importance between our matches and a friendly vs Denmark, our players also spend considerably longer time together.
 
No way would Real Madrid let go Varane. No chance. Yet, if he was to anywhere it would manutd as they chased him before real madrid came. Zidane convinced him.

His release clause is 30m Euros, and his wages are relatively low (about £40k/week) which is why a contract negotiation is expected. It would have happened in the summer but the knee injury delayed it.
 
Being top of the league, we don't like that here. We prefer to languish around midtable (despite us all predicting us to be at least top four in threads at the start of the season, laffing off people suggesting anything lower, we've decided it suits our argument and goal of protecting the Great Scot of the Working Class to say our squad was always only good enough for our current position) some good old adversity and Scottish grit to cross our way back into the top four sometime soon... but if we can offload a few gloryhunters and muppets, we wouldn't mind the manager to take us into the Dark Ages and become a nothing club for the next 20 years.
We are proud to be fierce reds and spit fire at disbelievers. Fayaaa.

You're a gem.
 
It seems that moyes trying to get away as much as possible from seeing his mutinous squad.

The number of matches he goes to is steadily increasing, shouldn't he be watching kagawa and hernandez play instead?

I dont recall any managers making so many high profile scouting in space of months
 
It seems that moyes trying to get away as much as possible from seeing his mutinous squad.

The number of matches he goes to is steadily increasing, shouldn't he be watching kagawa and hernandez play instead?

I dont recall any managers making so many high profile scouting in space of months

Relax, they're in safe hands.

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Anyone watching the England match tonight ? It held amazing similarities to our situation, plenty of form players on the field no less than 5 Liverpool starters, yet the only one looking comfortable was Sterling and he has the vigour of a debut and youth. It felt vert much like watching Moyeschester united, good players looking bizarrely toothless, Sturridge scored but for the large part was drifting, defensively an open book and seemingly in control without threat. It bore striking resemblances to our season and yet with players who have been tearing up the league......Perhaps some form of management issue hummmmmmmmmm.

Hmm, sounds like Woy needs to gut that squad and bring in the 'players who want to play for the shirt'.

It can't be management. Nothing is down to management anymore, ever.
 
I dont recall he often goes scouting at everton, do you?
I do recall cameras panning to him at quite a lot of games, it's just more focused upon now he's at United. While I have doubts about how realistic most of the targets the club are briefing about are and I've largely lost confidence in Moyes' ability to turn the current situation around, it's great that he's clearly so determined to get it right and how meticulous he is in his scouting of players.
 
I dont recall any managers making so many high profile scouting in space of months

Thats because it is usually not the top priority of a manager in the middle of a season. Clubs install a scouting network for that purpose, which is in most cases not even led by the head coach but a Director of football figure. A club as ressourceful as United should have a pretty widespread one in theory.

Borussia Dortmund for example has around a dozen highly qualified professional scouts, who do nothing else but travel the world and look at potential prospects. There are also all specialised on certain regions. We have for example each two for the Asian and East European region.

The scouts collect material on potential prospects, which is then reviewed by the coaching staff and the DoF. They compile a short list based on potential and availability and whoever lands on that list is inspected further. At that point the head coach does possibly want to see them in person, but does normally so at a time when there is no normal training planned.
 
Cillessen, Van der Wiel, Vlaar, Martins Indi, Blind, Strootman, Clasie, Promes, Sneijder, Boetius, Van Persie.

Vs

Lloris, Debuchy, Mangala, Varane, Evra, Pogba, Matuidi, Cabaye, Valbuena, Griezmann, Benzema.

Quite a few familiar names there. Pogba, Griezmann and Strootman perhaps.
Varane is looking for a new contract - Chelsea are sniffing.
Benzema is looking for a new contract.

Maybe this is the year we finally buy Sneidjer.

Well our scouts have definitely watched Griezmann, there are some quotes from our scout Friio about how Griezmann can have an impact for France at the world cup. Would Moyes need to personally watch a player we have a scout watching? I dont know, possibly. Maybe its so Moyes has an idea of whether we need to try and sign him before the world cup so the fee doesn't go up. But then there are other players. I'm sure we've got scouting reports on most of the players on the pitch.
 
Anyone watching the England match tonight ? It held amazing similarities to our situation, plenty of form players on the field no less than 5 Liverpool starters, yet the only one looking comfortable was Sterling and he has the vigour of a debut and youth. It felt vert much like watching Moyeschester united, good players looking bizarrely toothless, Sturridge scored but for the large part was drifting, defensively an open book and seemingly in control without threat. It bore striking resemblances to our season and yet with players who have been tearing up the league......Perhaps some form of management issue hummmmmmmmmm.

I object to that scandalous comparison in the strongest terms, England play far fewer long balls and wayward crosses than United. ;)
 
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Thats because it is usually not the top priority of a manager in the middle of a season. Clubs install a scouting network for that purpose, which is in most cases not even led by the head coach but a Director of football figure. A club as ressourceful as United should have a pretty widespread one in theory.

Borussia Dortmund for example has around a dozen highly qualified professional scouts, who do nothing else but travel the world and look at potential prospects. There are also all specialised on certain regions. We have for example each two for the Asian and East European region.

The scouts collect material on potential prospects, which is then reviewed by the coaching staff and the DoF. They compile a short list based on potential and availability and whoever lands on that list is inspected further. At that point the head coach does possibly want to see them in person, but does normally so at a time when there is no normal training planned.

Imo his days are a living hell, coming to work only to find his players sniggering at him and probably giving him a sarcastic replies...

Well, you know how it is when your workplace is not conducive, any trips out is a blessing.

I have no problem he visits a match or two, but there's more pressing basic matter at home to address first and foremost (rallying the troops, formulating new strategy, etc) rather than scouting (cough... Sightseeing) across europe.

He dithers even on who ge wants to look at, from italy, german, and now France... It seems he's doesnt have one solid player he wants to scout, and more like... Well... Shopping for players from scratch
 
I do recall cameras panning to him at quite a lot of games, it's just more focused upon now he's at United. While I have doubts about how realistic most of the targets the club are briefing about are and I've largely lost confidence in Moyes' ability to turn the current situation around, it's great that he's clearly so determined to get it right and how meticulous he is in his scouting of players.

On the contrary, i think he's just taking 1-2 days off the office

Come on. Who do he scout? At the end of this season it will be baines, and top players we will never buy and he will not have scouted that's gonna fill the tabloids.

I bet my week lunch on it
 
I do recall cameras panning to him at quite a lot of games, it's just more focused upon now he's at United. While I have doubts about how realistic most of the targets the club are briefing about are and I've largely lost confidence in Moyes' ability to turn the current situation around, it's great that he's clearly so determined to get it right and how meticulous he is in his scouting of players.

On the contrary, i think he's just taking 1-2 days off the office

Come on. Who do he scout? At the end of this season it will be baines, and top players we will never buy and he will not have scouted that's gonna fill the tabloids.

I bet my week lunch on it
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...e-behind-the-scenes-of-Sir-Alex-Ferguson.html

Sir Alex Ferguson was enjoying himself at the Oscars ceremony.

Grinning widely, eyes sparkling, he was evidently appreciating being in the company of winners for a change. Inevitably, as he was spotted in the crowd heading into the Dolby Theatre in Hollywood, he was asked by a British journalist on the fringes of the red carpet about David Moyes.

Which must have confused any American showbiz reporters eavesdropping on the conversation. What award was this Moyes up for? (Here’s a clue: it would not have been Best Director).

Ferguson was quick to say that Moyes will come good. What he needs is time, Ferguson added. As long as he is granted that he will be “OK”, which in the great manager’s vocabulary means more than just adequate. With that, he smiled and disappeared in search of a waiter holding a tray of champagne glasses.

For Moyes it was the most significant statement of the week. The international break can be a testing time for a Premier League manager in crisis.

That is when his players are cast to the winds, out in the wider world where they can make all kinds of dark mutterings about their boss’s competence away from any control (which they can then deny when they get back to the day job).

You can bet that in the dressing rooms of Holland, Japan and England the questions will have been asked of the Manchester United players: what has gone wrong? What has changed? Is the guy up to the job? The same questions that will come from journalists reporting on the games, the answers to which can quickly be made into suggestions of dressing-room revolt.

But now it does not really matter if Shinji Kagawa does make cryptic comment about not knowing what he has to do to get a game. Robin van Persie can talk all he likes about his colleagues getting in his space, it is not going to make any material difference.

Indeed all of those United Kremlinologists scanning for signs about the manager’s future have now been given the biggest hint about what will happen next.
The fall in the share price, the gathering storm of protest about ticket prices for any matches in the Europa League in the new season, the curious manner in which Ryan Giggs has studiously avoided being photographed next to his new manager, none of these things will have any bearing on Moyes’s employment prospects: now we know, in the short term at least, he is going nowhere.

This is the irony about Moyes’s tenure at Old Trafford. Many observers felt that Ferguson’s presence at United would be the biggest obstacle to his chances of success. Yet far from being a problem for him, Ferguson’s continuing involvement at United is turning out to be his biggest defence.
Because, rest assured, were he employed by any other club in the country he would have been gone by now.

At Chelsea it is a matter of certainty. At Fulham there would have been three other managers since he went. Even at Liverpool, Roy Hodgson did not last as long as Moyes has, and he did not preside over anything like as prodigious a decline.

It felt after the limp, insipid defeat by Olympiakos – a game in which United’s performance redefined the term lacklustre – like a turning point in Moyes’s stay at United. Among the match-going fans, who had loyally chanted the new manager’s name through the downs and downs of the season, there was a sudden and noticeable cooling.
The fanzine United We Stand polled its readers and discovered that there was a marked decline in tolerance after the defeat in Greece. At the end of January, just 22 per cent of those polled thought the manager should be dismissed; by the end of February that percentage had swollen to 55.98 per cent.

With little positive to show for his tenure, as the mood among even the most steadfast supporters changed, Moyes might have looked friendless. Except he has the most important friend of all: the man who recommended he be appointed, the man whose influence behind the scenes at the club is absolute.
There is one thing about Ferguson: he could never be mistaken for a man in a hurry to admit mistakes. Eric Djemba Djemba, Sebastián Verón, Kleberson, all were quietly let go rather than speedily put out of their own – and everyone else’s – misery.

Ferguson has never forgotten how the board at United stuck by him in his own dark days in the autumn of 1989. Now he is in a position to influence decision making, he wants his successor to enjoy the same benefit. “Give him time,” he told the reporter outside the Dolby. “That’s what I was given.”
Time, though, has condensed since he was in trouble as a manager. There is no way a business as highly geared to success as United could again wait three years for a turnaround in fortune.

But Ferguson’s endorsement suggests Moyes is safe for now. He will surely now be in place until the summer, when he will be handed the financial resources to mould the squad to his requirements.

However, if by September there is no evidence that his way is producing results, not even the most influential of supporters will save him. By then, in the accelerated continuum of the modern Premier League, time will have run out.
Bolded thing was interesting to me. White suggesting that Giggs isn't in the Moyes' camp?
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...e-behind-the-scenes-of-Sir-Alex-Ferguson.html


Bolded thing was interesting to me. White suggesting that Giggs isn't in the Moyes' camp?

He's kept very silent throughout all of this and you never see him among with the other three on the bench.

Not suggesting he's against Moyes but, I've noticed it all year.

Giggs, has always been labelled as a bit of sneak....With all his stroke around the place, RVP, Rio and Rooney are the last people Moyes should be worrying about
 
Was talking more about ratting other players out for doing the same things he was doing ha

I know you were, dude :)

But you're right, it's an interesting observation - Giggs has been somewhat removed, publicly at least, from the Moyes regime that he's apparently a part of. And considering how all the club old-boys have been coming out singing the company song, it's very strange that Giggs has been completely silent (as far as I've noticed).
 
He's kept very silent throughout all of this and you never see him among with the other three on the bench.

Not suggesting he's against Moyes but, I've noticed it all year.

Giggs, has always been labelled as a bit of sneak....With all his stroke around the place, RVP, Rio and Rooney are the last people Moyes should be worrying about

On the face of it the dynamic has to be an awkward one, Giggs is still playing the occasional match after all and has closer ties to the squad than the coaching staff. So perhaps a mixture of his sympathies lying with his team mates as well as Moyes not trusting him to the same extent as those with an Evertonian past.
 
I know you were, dude :)

But you're right, it's an interesting observation - Giggs has been somewhat removed, publicly at least, from the Moyes regime that he's apparently a part of. And considering how all the club old-boys have been coming out singing the company song, it's very strange that Giggs has been completely silent (as far as I've noticed).
On the face of it the dynamic has to be an awkward one, Giggs is still playing the occasional match after all and has closer ties to the squad than the coaching staff. So likely a mixture of his sympathies lying with his team mates as well as Moyes not trusting him to the same extent as those with an Evertonian background.

And everyone said appointing him as a coach was a stroke of genius by Moyes :lol:

When we add everything up, it has all been hysterically awful :lol:
 
It seems that moyes trying to get away as much as possible from seeing his mutinous squad.

The number of matches he goes to is steadily increasing, shouldn't he be watching kagawa and hernandez play instead?

I dont recall any managers making so many high profile scouting in space of months

If he's not going to bother managing the team, he might as well do something I suppose. I guess it shows he feels safe in his job, but I would be more worried about what I was going to do between now and May than what players I'd be after in June.
 
And everyone said appointing him as a coach was a stroke of genius by Moyes :lol:

When we add everything up, it has all been hysterically awful :lol:

Did a lot of people really believe that? It struck me as a sop to the fans, the use of a club icon for a spot of window dressing.
 
Well our scouts have definitely watched Griezmann, there are some quotes from our scout Friio about how Griezmann can have an impact for France at the world cup. Would Moyes need to personally watch a player we have a scout watching? I dont know, possibly. Maybe its so Moyes has an idea of whether we need to try and sign him before the world cup so the fee doesn't go up. But then there are other players. I'm sure we've got scouting reports on most of the players on the pitch.
Coaches also go to games to watch how teams play. Its quite a different view in the stands with a whole of the pitch outlook than it is looking at a video feed which is meant for TV.
 
If he's not going to bother managing the team, he might as well do something I suppose. I guess it shows he feels safe in his job, but I would be more worried about what I was going to do between now and May than what players I'd be after in June.

I would have thought rather than him feeling safe in the job its him working his butt off to find solutions. Solutions dont just involve possible transfer targets but also trying to find solutions to tactics and team systems. The view of the entire pitch where he can see all player movements and actions is far more insightful than any video replay or televised view for a coach.
 
I would have thought rather than him feeling safe in the job its him working his butt off to find solutions. Solutions dont just involve possible transfer targets but also trying to find solutions to tactics and team systems. The view of the entire pitch where he can see all player movements and actions is far more insightful than any video replay or televised view for a coach.

If he needs to go see other teams play in person to learn tactics, he shouldn't be managing Manchester United. He should know what he wants to play and how it will work before accepting the job. If he wants to learn how to defend certain players, he can watch video. For defending or attacking systems/formations, he can watch video of a team that's done it well. If he wants to learn how to play against Bayern, what good is it going to do to watch a match live? There's a very good chance the team they're playing, no matter how good, won't be teach him anything at all. It would be a better use of time to watch a match that he already knows demonstrates what he want to learn.

Besides, he's been flying around Europe watching matches. It's not as though we have to worry about facing any of those teams anytime soon. :lol:
 
If he needs to go see other teams play in person to learn tactics, he shouldn't be managing Manchester United. He should know what he wants to play and how it will work before accepting the job. If he wants to learn how to defend certain players, he can watch video. For defending or attacking systems/formations, he can watch video of a team that's done it well. If he wants to learn how to play against Bayern, what good is it going to do to watch a match live? There's a very good chance the team they're playing, no matter how good, won't be teach him anything at all. It would be a better use of time to watch a match that he already knows demonstrates what he want to learn.

Besides, he's been flying around Europe watching matches. It's not as though we have to worry about facing any of those teams anytime soon. :lol:
I didnt say learning tactics.
Watching video tapes only shows so much.
 
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