Things went from kebab to worse.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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I'm a little unconfident of it, with Moyes in charge.
to be honest, even the pro-moyes brigade on here surely have little confidence of us beating Olympiakos by three clear goals.
The bar has been lowered and lowered. First people insisted we were in the title race when it was clear we're not, then they insisted we have a good chance of finishing fourth, that's gone now. The expectation for success in the domestic cups came and went. Getting past Olympiacos was a given... Ahem, all gone wrong. And we can't even point to decent quality of football.
Like someone here said, something must happen over the next two months for Moyes to earn a second season. It shouldn't be a given.
If we did manage to beat Olympiakos by 3 clear goals then it will have nothing to do with Moyes or his tactics.
Exactly, but it make it easier for him under the eyes of the Glazers. Losing doesn't help him, but winning only prolongs the inevitable I'd say.
I don't think the bar has been lowered by the fans or the management, not in terms of the expectations of where we think United should be. I just think we have consistently failed to reach it and presently seem to be sinking further beneath it than we have for 20 odd years!!
It will have everything to do with Moyes, his tactics and his lack of reaction in Greece are the reason we are left in this predicament, Olympiakos are clearly very average and instead of realizing we were playing like shite and changing the game to attack them, he sat on his hands for 65 minutes.
Yep. And for all the faults our team has, and it does, it's hard to ignore the big elephant in the room: The fact the manager has changed.
Still, I reckon that even some of the people who want us to stick with Moyes would have said in August that he shouldn't be in the job for a second season if we drop out of the top four and play crap football. So I do think the bar has been lowered by some fans as they try to cling to old values and loyalty.
It may, and it may not. No point in speculating about it too much. Injuries prior to the match, a big red card, horrible refereeing decisions, pure luck - a lot of things can happen.
Of course he does, but look at some facial features. They eyebrows look more aged(maybe more stress lines than anything), the jawline looks a little ages. His eyes lines(crows feet) are progressively worse. He genuinely looks like he showing minute signs of stress.
Still looks like a ginger goblin.
Yes fair point...look back at the beginning of season threads and pretty much everyone said top four was minimum!!
For me he is a "dead man walking", out of respect for Fergie the Glazers will not sack him mid season, i think they will give this summer to rebuild and a further 6 months....if we are still shit in December then he will be gone.
That started a while ago. Just look at this forum after the Palace match, a relatively decent win against a pretty crap team was treated as one of the performances of the decade (slight exagerration tbf). But the point stands. Any season in the past, a 2-0 win against Palace would barely generate any discussion on here, but this one seemed to be another 'turning point', that seemed to be constantly described as a fantastic performance. It was strange.
he is the only person in the world who does not have eyebrows.I didn't mean the eyebrows, I meant the lines where they'd be.
I think it is fair to say he is a one trick pony, it is either hoof/cross the ball or simply play ineffective square passes- can't see him implementing imaginative attacking football at this point of the season.
This might seem randomly dropped into the thread but i didn't want to derail the Rafael thread again by talking about Moyes in it. It's about him playing youth/letting go youth.
2012/2013
He brought in Stones in Jan, and understandably he wouldn't want to put him straight into the side at the back end of a season where it was vital we were picking up the points to keep us in the race for Europe. Martinez said he was also interested in Stones when he was at Wigan so maybe Moyes' hand was forced.
Rodwell sold. He was given game time when we could but his injuries fecked him and 12m was too good to refuse.
Looking further back and others....
Mustafi - To be fair with a backline like ours which has always been very good defensively it isn't overly surprising that we wouldn't play him. This was also at a time when Heitinga was playing well (Had an outstanding season before the Euros where he was shit and lost all confidence). Clearly had talent though.
Anichebe/Vellios - Given chances but they're typical hoofball strikers so they slided in well with Moyes' vision with us until his last season (although we did hoof, it wasn't as much and there actually was some brilliant football on play at times).
Barkley - Did the right thing by sending him on loan as he needed that to build on his strength and confidence. It bulked him up well without taking away his outstanding technical abilities. Still think he could have been given a little more time in the Cups though.
Coleman - The Blackpool loan was good for him, albeit short, but he did get the best out of him last season when he was our most improved player and very good defensively and attacking wise. Obviously this season he's taken his attacking play up another level.
Ruddy -Probably a player he would regret leaving. Howard is a great keeper but i wouldn't say he is way above Ruddy, who is only probably a level below him but a very good keeper. Left for only around 100k.
Baxter/Vaughan/etc - Both given early debuts, both had the 'Rooney pressure', and both had injuries putting them back. Vaughan is doing pretty well at Huddersfield in the Championship, he'd probably be a decent squad player to have and would be HG.
Rooney - Outstanding talent, we have always struggled under Moyes in the ST department so it was pretty much a no brainer to play him, everyone would have.
Just thought about this now because of how much Moyes' training methods have been documented this season, but most of those injuries suffered were hamstring/knee injuries. Since they were around the first team they'd be training with them, could that have messed their development up a little? Could be going out on a limb here but it's something to think about...
2012/2013
He brought in Stones in Jan, and understandably he wouldn't want to put him straight into the side at the back end of a season where it was vital we were picking up the points to keep us in the race for Europe. Martinez said he was also interested in Stones when he was at Wigan so maybe Moyes' hand was forced.
Rodwell sold. He was given game time when we could but his injuries fecked him and 12m was too good to refuse.
Looking further back and others....
Mustafi - To be fair with a backline like ours which has always been very good defensively it isn't overly surprising that we wouldn't play him. This was also at a time when Heitinga was playing well (Had an outstanding season before the Euros where he was shit and lost all confidence). Clearly had talent though.
Anichebe/Vellios - Given chances but they're typical hoofball strikers so they slided in well with Moyes' vision with us until his last season (although we did hoof, it wasn't as much and there actually was some brilliant football on play at times).
Barkley - Did the right thing by sending him on loan as he needed that to build on his strength and confidence. It bulked him up well without taking away his outstanding technical abilities. Still think he could have been given a little more time in the Cups though.
Coleman - The Blackpool loan was good for him, albeit short, but he did get the best out of him last season when he was our most improved player and very good defensively and attacking wise. Obviously this season he's taken his attacking play up another level.
Ruddy -Probably a player he would regret leaving. Howard is a great keeper but i wouldn't say he is way above Ruddy, who is only probably a level below him but a very good keeper. Left for only around 100k.
Baxter/Vaughan/etc - Both given early debuts, both had the 'Rooney pressure', and both had injuries putting them back. Vaughan is doing pretty well at Huddersfield in the Championship, he'd probably be a decent squad player to have and would be HG.
Rooney - Outstanding talent, we have always struggled under Moyes in the ST department so it was pretty much a no brainer to play him, everyone would have.
Just thought about this now because of how much Moyes' training methods have been documented this season, but most of those injuries suffered were hamstring/knee injuries. Since they were around the first team they'd be training with them, could that have messed their development up a little? Could be going out on a limb here but it's something to think about...
Let us not talk about this guy's body any more. Bit weird.
Yeah.....
Remember Liverpool in, I think 2002/03? They had that ugly run of about 200 matches without a win. Houllier kept talking after matches about them "turning a corner". At the end of the day, when it's so bad, it can become better. It's not very likely to actually become good.
Not everyone.
I, for one, said top four was by no means guaranteed in the first season after fergie's departure - with rivals all improving significantly. Didn't predict liverpool going great guns, mind you.
I still think a finish outside the top four is acceptable. Now that mata and fellaini are both available there needs to be a big improvement in oerformances and results over the next couple of months, mind you.
Strange? Only if you'd missed the entire season beforehand.
Don't understand? How many false dawns did we have last season?
Good for you, and a good thing you're not running the club, lets hope the people in charge don't agree.
For a tracksuit manager who likes to get involved with the training he seems to spend a helluva a lot of time out scouting than actually at Carrington.
I got a bad feeling he will be told this summer that he has to sell to buy,or that we have no money to spend and all that scouting the "very best" players in europe will just be a dream!!
I got a bad feeling he will be told this summer that he has to sell to buy,or that we have no money to spend and all that scouting the "very best" players in europe will just be a dream!!
Huh? We're talking about this season, right?
EDIT: although i probably worded that badly. By "beforehand" i meant "up until that game"
Strange that it seemed to be viewed as a great performance, as opposed to what it was, which was an improved performance still a long way short of what a 'great' Manchester United performance is.
As I say, lowering of standards. We've all been guilty of it mind, I convinced myself in the Summer that Fellaini was a brilliant player.
No, neither can I. Can't teach old dogs new tricks and at 50 years of age you'd assume Moyes is pretty much set.
Yeah, I know, people will say Fergie showed you can evolve, yada yada. But there was only one Fergie so let's not even go there.
I'm not getting Everton FC advertising coming up on the cafe..
Moyessssss!!!! *Shakes fist violently*
Moyessssss!!!! *Shakes fist violently*
Missing out on top 4 would only be acceptable if it was by a point or two, with the team in 4th gaining a points tally in the 70s and us only just behind them, with us having played some good football and progressing well in other competitions with signs of improvement. In fact, even then, I wouldn't say "acceptable" would be the right word, but I'd at least be willing to give the manager another season after that.
As it is, we're not just missing out on the top 4. The highest we'll likely come is 6th, we're out of both cups, and we probably won't progress beyond the last 16 of the Champions League. It's unlikely we'll be close to 4th place, while the football has been dire. That is fairly unacceptable, even if missing out on top 4 alone isn't.
As it is, we're not just missing out on the top 4. The highest we'll likely come is 6th, we're out of both cups, and we probably won't progress beyond the last 16 of the Champions League. It's unlikely we'll be close to 4th place, while the football has been dire. That is fairly unacceptable, even if missing out on top 4 alone isn't.
Fergie didn't need to evolve. He always stayed the same, but ensured any modern football came from someone experienced(querioz,rene etc)
Moyes has chosen not to have a tactical aid, and is (in my belief) very very defensively minded, and it'll never change, as you said. He's not going to look for some experienced help either.
Strange that it seemed to be viewed as a great performance, as opposed to what it was, which was an improved performance still a long way short of what a 'great' Manchester United performance is.
As I say, lowering of standards. We've all been guilty of it mind, I convinced myself in the Summer that Fellaini was a brilliant player.
A "lowering of standards" is inevitable if you accept that Fergie's succesor might take a season or two to get the best out of the squad he inherited.
Of course, the season's gone far worse than anyone thought possible. Still, it's easy to see why people are eager to get hopeful about any perceived improvement. Especially when a class new signing like mata is involved. A solid performance from fellaini was a bonus.
Fergie has changed someone. Certainly his treatment of his players has changed and became softer as he identified that footballers were not the same as they were ten, twenty, thirty years ago. As for his football, you do have a point. But we basically still played 'Fergie football' with the odd adaptation. That's why I don't think an aid will help Moyes. It will still be his brand of football.
He's already changed his "brand of football" dramatically since taking the reins at United. Too much, if anything. It's his insistence on aping United under Fergie that is one of his biggest flaws IMO.
And why should our squad take a season or two to get used to the new manager when other teams only need two months. And get used to what? They are professionals used to playing at the very highest level. Get used to a new style of play maybe? yes, but that obviously isnt happening.
Can you honestly see this happening ? I mean looking at it from the view of probability, and even if we did manage to find some form then surely we look towards the players for creating the improvements.
Yes we expected a dip and perhaps finishing shy of the top four could be acceptable but the manager has given us nothing to cling onto so far, not even a glimmer of hope that hasn't been wiped out almost immediately.
We need a solution to Fergusons retirement and Moyes is generating a larger problem.
Why is this logic only applicable to us? Why didn't Pellegrini need time? Why didn't Mourinho need time? Why didn't Martinez need time?
Why are we talking about this like it's some sort of a "fact" that every manager has to spend one or two full seasons before he can show his managerial ability?
Sir Alex's adaptation to the modern football world was perhaps his most challenging achievement as a manager. He evolved more than anybody during the same time frame.
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