People are even now questioning purchase of Mata? One of the best players to have graced the Premiership over the last 2 seasons to have a dig at Moyes? I've said there's plenty of valid reasons to point fingers at Moyes but some of reasons I read on here are incredibly naive.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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Everything I heard makes it seem like Sir Bobby vetoed Mourinho. Ridiculous really. Too much thinking romantically about trying to get a nice guy in and hoping he'd do good when top managers usually aren't the nice guy who did okay for a mid table team. Sir Alex was a stubborn and the type of guy that commands respect and always knew he was right, even if he wasn't. Mourinho is just like that. Moyes doesn't have the character or ability to be a top manager and you can tell he's crumbling under the pressure of being united manager. He's good for turning lower clubs into solid teams through his high energy and long ball style, but he'll never be one that gets lauded for his style of play or great attacking football, or be one that will win titles. Just not cut out for it.
Surely that has to be better than not playing at all.
Agreed...Mata is/was a step in the right direction
If he was able to bore his way to the title winning 1-0 all the time, it's a different matter. At the moment he has us neither here nor there, playing shit on a stick football whilst losing all the time is not a good combination.
Jose obviously felt we wouldn't challenge for the next few years with moyes here, mata could potentially grab points off rivals and give him the title this season. Also 37m isn't too bad as a compensation. He probably felt we wouldn't use him to his full abilities.
There's absolutely no way he'd sell mata to us if we were in the top 4 playing good football though.
No one is questioning the signing of Mata, more how he's being used in the team.
Does that make you right?
Sky and football manager has made fans supposed experts at football.
You just have to read the opinions on here re SAF though. There has been a lot of revisionism about how 'entertaining' his recent sides were when most of last season was dominated by the 'slow motion zombie passing' on here.
Moyes had taken Everton as far as he could on their budget and losing their best players. It was time for a change.
The point about the Mata deal is why he was willing to come. Whenever anyone brings up whether we can attract top players Matas name is used but lets be honest he came because Chelsea dont view us as a threat and were willing to sell. If someone else came in with the money we were paying i doubt he would be here... But some here use that as proof that we will still attract top players with Moyes and without UCL football.
I honestly believe Moyes will have a hard time attracting the top players in the world (moreso if theres no UCL) as hes hardly a well known name outside of England. Coupled with our performances under him i wouldn't be surprised if they are not impressed.
Mata was a step in the right direction but when you think that all the other players we should have been looking at we ended up getting a player we didn't need. Also lets not get it twisted, Mata came here to get game time - it will be interesting what happens in summer now that Rooneys staying and he wont be guaranteed to play in his preferred position.
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All working out so far, except for the part that a Moyes managed team taking points off City & Liverpool with or without Mata.
Mourinho's biggest mistake this season was playing for the 0-0 at OT early on in the season.
The 200M thing is just a PR concoction at this point. We struggled to get 1 player in last Summer, it's extremely difficult to imagine us getting anywhere near the amount of top quality players in to justify spending that amount of money. It's a further reason I can't see Moyes improving us enough to get top four next season, which is a must.
Fergie, Gill and Charlton closed the deal.
Money tends to solve that particular problem, but I'd honestly rather see the 38m throw at Klopp than see Mata being (mis)managed by Moyes.
I don't know any matchgoers who are in the "give him time" camp, let alone 'at least a couple of seasons'.
The absence of vocal or visible dissent should not be mistaken for support.
Someone else on here (I forget who, sorry) said that Mata was the club's choice and not Moyes's. Interesting if that's true.
Jose Mourinho, doing more for Manchester United than David Moyes...
and we're left to supporting him to win the title ahead of City and Pool.
It actually does make me right yes.
That logic applies to everything in life. Not just football!
That last line makes zero sense btw. Especially considering we're on a football forum, what are we supposed to offer our views on?
Likely SAF has told him that Moyes will be here for quite a few years
Being serious though, I think that he would have sold Mata to us anyway (bar in a direct fight for the title in this season which would have given us an instant advantage). Mata's signing - unlike Fellaini - is a step in the right direction and one of the best moves Moyes has make here (the other one being the introduction of Januzaj and the list finishes there IMO). However - until now - Moyes seems to doesn't have a clue where and how to play him.
But how much are we going to spend? City and Chelsea both had a lot of turn over in personal during their first years with new owners to get the formula right. Will United be able to do the same?
City and Chelsea brought players that would get them to the UCL/next level, when they got there they spent more to have players who would actually play there.
Since you seem to support moyes. What do you see in him that makes you think he'll come good? Blind faith that time=success because it worked with fergie?
He's not had any sort of tactical nous during his time here, going completely defensive and leaving out the more talented players in every single big game we had and instead resorting to Valencia and young despite both being shit players. Even in every other game, we still are being outplayed and have not had 1 convincing performance this season in the league. Everyone says give him time, but why is our play getting worse the more the players are used to him and his style?
I know a few season ticket holders who also go to a few away matches every season, and whilst they have not resorted to booing Moyes or chanting for him to be sacked, they're anything but supportive of the current regime.
I assume that you were there during all the discussions then?
I honestly think a top class manager should get us a CL place next season even without any signing, the runaway champions of last season have not all become useless, it's the manager who's useless at the moment.
I'd much rather see us throw the biggest package ever at Klopp and just sign 1 or 2 players than give Moyes a free reign to sign 200m worth of players and still play hoof and cross.
In fairness Moyes seems to have spent most of this season scouting for players rather than working with the players he does have so he should in theory be better placed to actually sign someone in the summer. Kind of begs the question what the hell was he doing last summer and why he was so off the pace, does he really need to scout each player 12 times?
How I said anywhere I support Moyes?
I'd support the club if they sacked him, and back the next manager.
I know, it's ridiculous how our fans have jumped on that number. They should know the club better than that. There are clubs who will use transfer activity to solve their problems; we prefer to make the most of the players we have instead, and gradually supplement the squad. In any case, our playing staff obviously doesn't need an overhaul anyway; it simply needs tidying up in a few positions. I'm confident Moyes was using this season to assess the squad, and I trust him to rectify our problems both by helping players into the team, as with Januzaj, and bringing in a couple of additions.
Does he really need to go watch Bayern to know Kroos would be a good signing? Someone buy him a copy of the latest FM for his bunker.
Yes as a matter of fact I was.
Care to explain what's he's done this season to earn that trust? or is it just because Sir Alex said so back in May?
My thoughts exactly, we need to realise that the next manager will shape the next United team and if its anything like this season (442 going no where) i hate to think what kind of a team we would end up with if he was allowed to spend. £30m on baines anyone?
Pretty sure he mean't to say rectum our problems
If he intends to play hoof and cross, I really don't know why he signed Mata (perhaps it's true that Mata was a club signing).
If you're not foaming at the mouth at the mere mention of his name, or updating your football feeds every 5 mins hoping for news of his sacking you are accused of being in the pro camp.
Just seems like you do because you're making excuses for everything he's done basically. And as for the mourinho thing in the last comment, obviously he never said it, but it's pretty easy to think of reasons. Do you really think mourinho would sell us mata if he thought we were going to challenge for the title with moyes? No chance.
Was there a need for that crude remark?
Hi,
First and foremost, Managers can change their playing styles i.e Wenger's invisibles were powerful strong and direct whereas now Wenger's team is based on silky one touch passing. So people saying Moyes should be judged on how he played at Everton is not right. He used the players he had to make his team compact and tough to beat which is effective, just look at how the most successful manager in Mourinho playing this "dull and boring football". It is just a preference to either play fast transition football (counter attack) or having the possession game. Both are effective. People forget in 2012/13 season, Everton have improved their way of football, remember how Baines and Pienaar were the best LB/LW partnership? Where is that now? People aslo do not notice that Martinez has loan signings of 3/4 top 4 team players: Lukaku, Barry, Traore, Deulofeu. Also, Moyes did not have Barkley who is one of the best young talents in the world! Yet, Martinez has earned similair points to Moyes. So I say, have some perspective.
Now, imagine Moyes will want to change his playing style, but he has not told us hat he wants and the team has not showed signs of any style!
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Does anyone remember at the start of the season/pre-season where we pressured high up the pitch and then we suddenly stopped after we lost so many games?
This because our strikers would close down the defenders and then the midfielder will close down the opposition's midfield, but then there would be a gap between the midfield and the defence of which many teams exploited.
Eventually, we solved that problem in December; we had our defence not push up, our midfielder stay back and our strikers to close down defenders one by one.
Why do you think we changed that? When our midfielders (who are already extremely immobile) went to close down the opposition and then have to get back even further than if our line of defence was pushed higher up the pitch. Our defence was so slow that we had to put the line of defence way back so the oppo striker can't penetrate the spaces left behind the slow defence. Also, it allows our midfielders to not worry about moving quickly in-between transition, not closing down higher up the pitch and effectively not letting any space between our midfield and defence. This defeats the point in what Moyes wants to do. Added to not getting what wants from how the team should play, they have no confidence and no belief. That is a disaster upon disaster.
So now we have a team that sits back, but we can't break and counter attack which defeats the point! We do not have any cohesion and pace: we have no pace when attacking and we do not pass and move which allows the break to be more efficient. Moyes had instructed Carrick and Cleverly to not move anywhere from our half because he so scared we would get exposed which I don't blame him. But, we can't pass from deep in our midfield because Carrick and Cleveley do not separate and do not move away from defence and thus the balls do not reach the strikers unless they come and collect it as the oppo are all over our deep lying midfielders!!
But, one variable that was constant throughout the season was we kept on crossing the ball constantly. Why? Moyes had a vision of play and crossing the ball was a key part of it and there is nothing wrong with crossing the ball if successful, it is very direct and efficient.
One conmen thing in all of this that effects our game, is our quality of players. We do not have fast mobile players in midfield that allows transitions from defence and attack, we do not have pacey centre backs that allow us to push high up (and if we did press high up, there will be a greater pressure on our centre backs to deliver in balls, yet we can't even put in a 5 yard pass which is disgraceful!), we do not have have full backs that cross the ball efficiently and into the right spaces, we do not have wingers who can cross the ball efficiently and in the right spaces and also can't go past people and can't pass and move. We just don't have the quality, don't let us winning the PL title to fool you as the previous coaches covered up our weaknesses by balancing our weaknesses and strengths. We would of got found out anyway, remember when we kept on winning 4-3 score lines? That is because we were exposed, but our strength in RVP covered it up. I am not blaming Moyes or Fergie, we are way beyond that point. We need better quality players and if you see lower down the league such as Southampton, Swansea etc they have more overall quality than us. Why? They are able to do things we can't as showed above, even if they cost so much less to get those players. Moyes who has now set up a scouting system that actually compares statistics from different areas of a player's qualities with other players. Fergie used to not use this technology and rely on the eye of his chief scout who just scouts the matches. The game has moved on, and so should we.
Ballbag went on Talksport and said that when he talked to Moyes, he told him his plans for the team and would like to play a style similar to Bayern of the 2012/13 season. I don't know what to make of that (don't want this to be a Moyes thread).
Even if Moyes had a system he can't implement it!
He has to resort to a deep seated team (because of the reasons provided) that when transitions to attack, they have have a slow counter attack and can't cross the ball when we do get near the box.
His style of play can be implemented until he gets the right players, until then his plan B to sit back is not working because of the reasons I told you. So there is not much hope but to hope for the best.
I am surprised no one has given this a thought.
P.S.
Sultan is the man.
First and foremost, Managers can change their playing styles i.e Wenger's invisibles were powerful strong and direct whereas now Wenger's team is based on silky one touch passing. So people saying Moyes should be judged on how he played at Everton is not right. He used the players he had to make his team compact and tough to beat which is effective, just look at how the most successful manager in Mourinho playing this "dull and boring football". It is just a preference to either play fast transition football (counter attack) or having the possession game. Both are effective. People forget in 2012/13 season, Everton have improved their way of football, remember how Baines and Pienaar were the best LB/LW partnership? Where is that now? People aslo do not notice that Martinez has loan signings of 3/4 top 4 team players: Lukaku, Barry, Traore, Deulofeu. Also, Moyes did not have Barkley who is one of the best young talents in the world! Yet, Martinez has earned similair points to Moyes. So I say, have some perspective.
Now, imagine Moyes will want to change his playing style, but he has not told us hat he wants and the team has not showed signs of any style!
------------------
Does anyone remember at the start of the season/pre-season where we pressured high up the pitch and then we suddenly stopped after we lost so many games?
This because our strikers would close down the defenders and then the midfielder will close down the opposition's midfield, but then there would be a gap between the midfield and the defence of which many teams exploited.
Eventually, we solved that problem in December; we had our defence not push up, our midfielder stay back and our strikers to close down defenders one by one.
Why do you think we changed that? When our midfielders (who are already extremely immobile) went to close down the opposition and then have to get back even further than if our line of defence was pushed higher up the pitch. Our defence was so slow that we had to put the line of defence way back so the oppo striker can't penetrate the spaces left behind the slow defence. Also, it allows our midfielders to not worry about moving quickly in-between transition, not closing down higher up the pitch and effectively not letting any space between our midfield and defence. This defeats the point in what Moyes wants to do. Added to not getting what wants from how the team should play, they have no confidence and no belief. That is a disaster upon disaster.
But, one variable that was constant throughout the season was we kept on crossing the ball constantly. Why? Moyes had a vision of play and crossing the ball was a key part of it and there is nothing wrong with crossing the ball if successful, it is very direct and efficient.
One conmen thing in all of this that effects our game, is our quality of players. We do not have fast mobile players in midfield that allows transitions from defence and attack, we do not have pacey centre backs that allow us to push high up (and if we did press high up, there will be a greater pressure on our centre backs to deliver in balls, yet we can't even put in a 5 yard pass which is disgraceful!), we do not have have full backs that cross the ball efficiently and into the right spaces, we do not have wingers who can cross the ball efficiently and in the right spaces and also can't go past people and can't pass and move. We just don't have the quality, don't let us winning the PL title to fool you as the previous coaches covered up our weaknesses by balancing our weaknesses and strengths. We would of got found out anyway, remember when we kept on winning 4-3 score lines? That is because we were exposed, but our strength in RVP covered it up. I am not blaming Moyes or Fergie, we are way beyond that point. We need better quality players and if you see lower down the league such as Southampton, Swansea etc they have more overall quality than us. Why? They are able to do things we can't as showed above, even if they cost so much less to get those players. Moyes who has now set up a scouting system that actually compares statistics from different areas of a player's qualities with other players. Fergie used to not use this technology and rely on the eye of his chief scout who just scouts the matches. The game has moved on, and so should we.
Ballbag went on Talksport and said that when he talked to Moyes, he told him his plans for the team and would like to play a style similar to Bayern of the 2012/13 season. I don't know what to make of that (don't want this to be a Moyes thread).
Even if Moyes had a system he can't implement it!
He has to resort to a deep seated team (because of the reasons provided) that when transitions to attack, they have have a slow counter attack and can't cross the ball when we do get near the box.
His style of play can be implemented until he gets the right players, until then his plan B to sit back is not working because of the reasons I told you. So there is not much hope but to hope for the best.
I am surprised no one has given this a thought.
P.S.
Sultan is the man.
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