What did RVP actually say to the media?
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
- Start date
- Status
So who should he drop for Hernandez then? When RVP was out Welbeck came in and scored goals so why would be drop one for the other.
You seem to be a bit of an expert in "systems" - Kagawa has had games and done very little to warrant being picked every week. Infact, he didn't do a great deal last season either.
As it is at the moment he's now up against Mata as well for a place out wide.
And you didn't answer my question - why would he sell RVP or his best players? Answer, he wouldn't - no manager would.
Of the players you refer to Nani and Kagawa are not getting a look in - but have shown nothing when playing anyway - not more than Valencia, Young and certainly not more than Januzaj. We also don't see what goes on behind the scenes in training, what attitude are like etc.
At the end of the day it seems we will spend in the summer on high quality players, so losing squad players shouldn't be an issue.
There is a lot of sensible and fair criticisms of Moyes on here, but saying ridiculous things like "I hope Moyes doesn't sell out best players" doesn't bring a lot to the debate and just smacks of sticking the boot in for no reason other than disliking the bloke.
The scouting set up is world class, this is more rubbish to justify why we were so slow in the market over the summer.
Anyone who doubts Jim Lawlor's talents, after some of the gems he's unearthed, doesn't know football.
All spin and no substance.
There's plenty of games Hernandez could have played, bus hasn't. He's been reduced to being thrown on for 20 minutes when we're chasing a game, and being expected to perform miracles. Its amazingly bad man management.
He hasn't done well because he's been played in a team who's tactics, and yes 'system', is almost the exact opposite of what he's suited to., and what gets the best out of him. Hardly his fault is it? The fact he's 'up for a place out wide' tells you everything. Its using square pegs for round holes.
He'd sell RVP because RVP says he wants to leave? Which is looking increasingly likely.
Nani and Kagawa are infinately better players then Young anf Valencia, they just don't suit Moyes' dinasour 4-4-2, cross the ball at all costs, players must be able to depend and work hard nonsense.
Has Nani not just been ridiculously injured most of the season, rather than being marginalised though?
Or is that just a cover story?
Have you watched Kagawa play for us this season? He was poor in some games, while he was one of our best in some. To say he dont deserve a place in the team is ,ridiculous. If you look back to our last game, our best chance, which came from a Smalling cross started from a through ball from Kagawa. Our best move of the match came from him and Rooney through the center.. There was the 2-0 against Swansea where he was our best, when he moved to the center after half time. He did well in the CL so far. And he was miles better than Young or Valencia almost all the time he played.
Yeah, a system that found the likes of Rafael or Hernandez must have something in it.
Have you ever noticed that everytime a new manager comes in he says the players aren't fit, aren't good enough, training facilities could be better, scouting system need improving. Trouble there is this is the champions, the players were already fit, the facilities are top class, the scouting system is top notch. He was getting his excuses ready.
He's been getting them ready since about August.
By the way, I'm sure Moyes HAS changed the scouting system, just to suit the way he wants to work. Doesn't mean it was bad beforehand. The team isn't good, the scouting system is crap. Was this Manchester United managed by Alex Ferguson or Carlisle?
People going with Van Gaal for Utd - should Moyes get the boot
Things were difficult for him because others occupied the zones he wanted to move into. And how it's not easy to score because he gets so few chances.
On the tactics
On his miss
On Moyes
So what I take from this is that RVP makes intelligent runs like any top player, they have moves they instinctively do. Ferguson talked about this and how they trained for a good few months before the players were able to spot which run RVP was about to make and pass the ball accordingly. He is basically frustrated at the lack of tactical discipline installed by Moyes where anybody moves anywhere thus resulting in players making the runs he would make, forcing him in turn to now think and not play so instinctively.
An interchanging system is preferable but even then each player must know what moves the others will do so as not to make the run they would otherwise make. I just think there is a massive jump from competing for 5th or 6th each season to competing for the championship in terms of tactics, and Moyes has not implemented the coaching to the level required at the top.
No idea how true this is but apparently we found out about Hernandez 30 miles down the road:
And again, not sure if this is true but we apparently were moreso interested in signing Fabio than Rafael but took the latter because we had no choice if we wanted Fabio.
I noticed an instance when Rooney didn't track back and Olympiakos just walked through United. He simply couldn't trust Carrick and Cleverley to deal with it and from that point he chased players back into our own half.
If he could trust his central midfielders to win that ball back quickly then he would stay up.
Valencia was a regular under Fergie, and young played plenty as well. Hernandez last year was marginalised by RVP who is an all round better player.
You can have opinions on selection and systems as every fan does. Maybe these players do deserve more of a chance - but based on their performances last season and this, to suggest that moving them on would be a disaster doesn't make sense to me.
You said you were worried Moyes would dismantle the squad - a squad with umpteen 30 something's who need to be replaced and a number of players who didn't perform last year under Fergie, and haven't under Moyes.
Any manager would want to bring their own players in - here anybody with half a brain can see where we are deficient in terms of players. It's a period of transition, the club are looking at top quality players to come in.
As I said - there is no reason to suggest the club will let their best players go. It's that simple.
Contrast that with Rodgers after Liverpool's win identifying his tactical plans for the match.
There is no need for Rooney to be doing it the whole time. The article is correct in pointing out it upsets he balance of the team. By all accounts work hard, but Rooney wants to do everything - that's wrong
Maybe he does deserve more of a chance - my post was in response to someone suggesting Moyes was going to "dismantle" a great squad, to which I disagreed.
Kagawa has had decent games - usually in Europe, but he's rarely looked like a player who will take Rooney or Januzaj's place long term - nor I suspect will he get in ahead of Mata. He hasn't performed like a lot of people would have expected when he signed.
The question here isn't whether he deserves a game, but whether it would be a disaster if he left in the summer. If the club can get the players in they want, then to me it isn't.
I think that's true.
Carrick, as good a player as he is, isn't the most mobile and Cleverley gives the ball away to often and in dangerous positions.
Rooney is a great worker but I think with top midfielders behind him he'd be able to stay in the positions he is most dangerous.
He's done the same thing for England for years - dropping very deep to get the ball if they can't get it to him up top.
Sometimes he maybe needs to be more mentally disciplined rather than chasing lost causes. It's something he'll need to learn the older he gets as he slows down.
If we had a proper midfield behind him, I imagine he'd stop almost instantly. He'd be able to go back to scoring goals.
The way Moyes has handled Rooney has been a factor in him losing control of the Man Utd squad.
By indulging Rooney, by giving into his bellyaching and his demands for big money, Moyes has made himself look like he can be bullied. When you look back you'll notice the likes of Rio, Chico etc. didn't start making noises until after Rooney did and then got what he wanted. Rooney burst the dam by taking on the management and winning. Rooney's success has encouraged every unhappy player to have a pop. They have followed his example, and feel what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Sir Alex treated his special players differently but he never let his special players rule him. Yes, he let Ronaldo have all sorts of freedom but he forced Ronnie to stay another season so it was clear he was leaving on Fergie's timetable not Madrid's. Likewise Cantona who was allowed to have his odd days off but he wasn't allowed to step out of the promotional work United wanted him to do off season.
Rooney is ruling Moyes and Man Utd and I'm sure after two decades of Fergie the squad just can't respect that. Rooney's spat at us twice and they have given him a truckload of cash and promised him the captaincy. Having seen how Sir Alex slapped down anyone who stepped out of line e.g. Rooney last year, the players must look at Moyes and see him as a soft touch. Its clear that Moyes has no influence over them, no real authority. They're just going through the motions, doing what he says without any faith in him. Worst thing is so much of that is down to Moyes' choices, choices he cant go back and undo.
Last edited:
Agreed. Indulged is the word - to the detriment of the squad.
Fergie gave in to Rooney in exactly the same way. He was too valuable to lose.
Moyes has basically bent himself over, and let Rooney do what he likes. Its been a bit embarrasing really.
His performances haven't even been all that anyways. Especially in comparison to the likes of Suarez, Ramsey and Sturridge this season, and Ronaldo/Messi all seasons.
His performances haven't even been all that anyways. Especially in comparison to the likes of Suarez, Ramsey and Sturridge this season, and Ronaldo/Messi all seasons.
What noises did Rooney make? Genuine question.
Ferguson showed a willingness to drop Rooney when he was out of form that Moyes simply hasn't.
In 2010 it wasn't Fergie who blinked first, it was Rooney who did the U-turn after losing the PR battle. Had Sir Alex stayed on that would have happened again, after all at the end of last season Fergie froze Rooney out completely and the club have been clear they weren't going to sell.
Do you honestly believe Sir Alex would've put up with the way Rooney sulked on the opening day of the season at Swansea?
There's no point in going over old ground. If you want to believe that Sir Alex lied when he told the world that Rooney asked for a transfer, and that none of the media reports that followed linking Rooney to Chelsea were from Stretford and co. then fine.
Its all lies
This piece just about stops short of claiming Rooney is the reason Rio and Vidic couldn't pass for shit, Carrick and Cleverley did nothing of note, our wingers are worthless and our attack isn't working, by being in all of their positions at the same time, for the entire duration of the match. No actually, it doesn't even stop short of it, with enlightening passages like this:
I've never read a worse piece in my entire life.
Is correct. Load of tosh.
And Rafael.
There's no point in going over old ground. If you want to believe that Sir Alex lied when he told the world that Rooney asked for a transfer, and that none of the media reports that followed linking Rooney to Chelsea were from Stretford and co. then fine.
Its all lies
No it's just you said "making noises and then the others started" as if he'd said something/twitter etc and then the others followed suite.
Also if he did put in a transfer request, it doesn't seem he got what he wanted there...
I remember in the Summer people were commending Moyes and Woodward for 'playing hardball' by not letting him leave, so I dunno, seems a bit hypocritical really.
Fergie did not lie...neither did Rooney.
Rooney never put in an official transfer request.
Rooney never put in an official transfer request.
That was all before Moyes even took over though wasn't it.
I just don't see, personally, how Rooney has been disruptive - or 'making noises' during Moyes' time here.
think Moyes mistatements about RVP being the main striker or summat like that was the issue. But that has long being ironed out. Rooney and Moyes look to have put all that behind them.
I have never said that buying a £100m of players is going to cure all our ills. I agree with you 100%, the moral of the squad has to be lifted before anything. I don't even think that these players are as bad as they are playing or made out to be.
My post was in reply to the poster who said we'll need many changes before we can start challenging again. Assumption being the Moyes has turned things around or we have a new man in charge capable of managing a club our size.
Rooney hasn't deserved to be dropped at any point this season so that's hardly fair. And in 2010 Rooney got the nice big wage bump he was after despite disrespecting the club and manager publically with his statement so it's not very different to what happened this year with Moyes, really.
He put up with him questioning the clubs ambition. No other player has taken a liberty like that and survived - and a few we're moved on for much less.
At that time Rooney was a key player and Fergie realised that without him they would struggle. He therefore bit his tongue, did what was best for the team and gave him a new contract.
Last year RVP was on board and was arguably the main reason united won the league. Fergie could then be a bit more honest with Rooney. And Rooney only really git benched at the end of the season when the title was just about won anyway.
To me, having a go at Moyes for this is unfair. He's one of a few genuinely world class players in the squad, the club want to keep him - you could argue that Moyes and the club have done well to get him to commit his future given the current position.
Had he dropped Rooney he'd have been derided by the fans anyway - it's a no win situation.
Rooney had been average recently, perhaps due to the issue of his new contract. Whatever, he's in the team every week so it's time to start turning it on. I think that in a better side, with a more creative midfield behind him he plays "between the lines" more and is a bigger threat.
I'm not sure you fully understood what I posted. When he didn't do it Olympiakos walked through us with ease, he had no real choice.
Option A) Don't help a weak midfield and drastically increase our chances of conceding.
Option B) Help a weak midfield and add and extra man and much needed strength.
With all due respect, Carrick and Cleverley are not quite Barcelona standard yet, and don't win the ball back to anywhere near the same level.
- Status