Moyes So Far!

[Adebesi]

Contracts have to be fair, so in terms of AVB achieving top four with chelsea is a fair request but not with spurs, either way both sacked him before such was mathematically impossible.

Di Matteo - the same.

Jose - the same.

Scolari - the same.

Ranieri - the same.

Grant - the same.

(See a pattern?)

Dalglish and Hodgson - Kenny finished 8th, so the same level as his predecessor. Roy left in January so would not have been afforded the time needed.

Mancini - He finished second, performance related has to be fair and so top four was achieved. Asking him to win the league is unreasonable.

Abromovich, the main person used in that article as manager's leaving as very rich men. Enough said.

Rafael Benitez left in June with a 4m pay off http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ears-charge--Spaniard-accepts-4m-pay-off.html

From what I've read he had four years left on his contract at £5m per year entitling him to £20m full pay off. Media speculated at the time his low pay off was due to his poor performance however nothing was confirmed. It could have been just about anything.

I dont necessarily think he will be paid £25m. My guess is he would either just keep collecting his salary as per his entitlement without taking another job (the Di Matteo model) or take a pay off to be done with the whole thing, which would be large but not so large as his full cash entitlement, but would allow him to get another job.

As far as what you are saying goes, Im just not sure about the validity of your assessment of "fairness", which seems to be what your whole theory rests on. Anyway, as you said, neither of us know so there's no point in arguing about it, we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Spiersey]

There's no way Moyes would get £25 million. He'd get a years salary at most. There will be a clause saying that compensation will only be paid til the end of the season or something. That's what Pardews Newcastle contract has, despite being 8 years.

 

[hungrywing]

Actually it makes you start to wonder if we did the opposite of those clubs. "No, David. No clauses. This club isn't like those others. We're different here. You've got six years, no strings attached. Welcome to Manchester United."

 

[.Rossi]

Actually it makes you start to wonder if we did the opposite of those clubs. "No, David. No clauses. This club isn't like those others. We're different here. You've got six years, no strings attached. Welcome to Manchester United."

"We're Manchester United...We do what we want"

 

[Mersault]

If the board wanted him out but held their hands because they'd have to pay him 25m then they'd leak that info to the press and not deny it publicly causing Moyes huge backlash from the fans which would end up with him quitting when there's no public support from the club.

There is no way in the world he'll get a payoff like that. Even though it'd probably be money well spent. I think all the discussion on this is academic.

 

[Adebesi]

If the board wanted him out but held their hands because they'd have to pay him 25m then they'd leak that info to the press and not deny it publicly causing Moyes huge backlash from the fans which would end up with him quitting when there's no public support from the club.

That would be one way to go although that would make them look pretty bad as well, there is no knowing how that backlash would play out. After all, you can make the case it isnt Moyes' fault he is well out of his depth, it isnt Moyes' fault he signed an extremely generous contract. Moyes could combat that by saying to a friendly journalist, "listen, im not a quitter, they have hired me to do a job and I will do it until I am sacked or until my contract runs out." At the end of the day, £25m is nothing to the club, if they want rid that badly they should just pay it. That would be my thinking on it anyway.

I expect he will be fired and he will settle on a large figure that is way under the £25m, say £10m or something. Not because of a clause but because of a negotiation and because he wants to continue to work in football and doesnt want to sit on his arse for the next 5 years collecting a salary for doing nothing.

 

[marjen]

It will cost far more than whatever his clause is to go another season or two outside of the Champions League.

 

[Mersault]

That would be one way to go although that would make them look pretty bad as well, there is no knowing how that backlash would play out. After all, you can make the case it isnt Moyes' fault he is well out of his depth, it isnt Moyes' fault he signed an extremely generous contract. Moyes could combat that by saying to a friendly journalist, "listen, im not a quitter, they have hired me to do a job and I will do it until I am sacked or until my contract runs out." At the end of the day, £25m is nothing to the club, if they want rid that badly they should just pay it. That would be my thinking on it anyway.

I expect he will be fired and he will settle on a large figure that is way under the £25m, say £10m or something. Not because of a clause but because of a negotiation and because he wants to continue to work in football and doesnt want to sit on his arse for the next 5 years collecting a salary for doing nothing.

In the event of that type of scenario, where he's no longer supported but stays on refusing to "give up" he'd only tarnish the remains of his reputation. I don't think he'd stay on if there's no longer public support from the club. I just don't see how that would play out. It would immediately create a further gap between him and the players, as well as the fans.

 

[LonelyFire]

21% hit on value of the club since Moyes took charge. Equates to roughly $600m.

And people actually think the glazers will sit back??? Don't think so.

 

[Mockney]

The complete reversion to everything that hasn't worked all season, from what looked like a slow, but promising improvement in approach against Palace has got me real damn close now. I do actually want him out, but I don't want him sacked if that makes any sense, albeit I know thats bonkers. I'm just hanging on by this insane, almost religious belief that it's fairer to give him a bit longer, a summer to build etc, but I know deep down that's nonsense. I know he's in over his head, I know he's as progressive as a fecking loom and has almost certainly lost the dressing room. If I could turn back time and stop him being appointed I would.

It's the "I'm surprised" bit that's got me. When that line up was released, absolutely no one was surprised. No one. This is basic common knowledge. When you're being tactically out thought by twitter, you're clearly just a pretty terrible manager.

 

[LonelyFire]

Spot on @Mockney

The simple decision was bring in kagawa for Mata and play same system....instead he reverted to type and played both players and system that hasn't worked all season. Insanity.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

So if Moyes contract has a clause that is based on performance does anyone know exactly how much he will owe us in May ?

 

[LonelyFire]

Is Danny Taylor posting on here?? Seems to have screenshotted our poll

 

[Nighteyes]

Is Danny Taylor posting on here?? Seems to have screenshotted our poll

Link?

 

[Amir]

It's on his Twitter account, but he got it from someone else.

 

[LonelyFire]

Link?

Scrap that - its RI.

apologies lads

 

[amolbhatia50k]

The complete reversion to everything that hasn't worked all season, from what looked like a slow, but promising improvement in approach against Palace has got me real damn close now. I do actually want him out, but I don't want him sacked if that makes any sense, albeit I know thats bonkers. I'm just hanging on by this insane, almost religious belief that it's fairer to give him a bit longer, a summer to build etc, but I know deep down that's nonsense. I know he's in over his head, I know he's as progressive as a fecking loom and has almost certainly lost the dressing room. If I could turn back time and stop him being appointed I would.

It's the "I'm surprised" bit that's got me. When that line up was released, absolutely no one was surprised. No one. This is basic common knowledge. When you're being tactically out thought by twitter, you're clearly just a pretty terrible manager.

It sounds like you don't want him sacked because then you'll want him sacked. I felt that way too for a fair while and kept qualifying what I want by saying things like "if he doesn't get 4th.." Or "If the football isn't far better...", but the truth is I just didn't want to take the stand that he should be sacked. Chuck that pretence, he should be sacked indeed. He's done a pathetic job and made a mockery of the team.

 

[Skywarden]

The complete reversion to everything that hasn't worked all season, from what looked like a slow, but promising improvement in approach against Palace has got me real damn close now. I do actually want him out, but I don't want him sacked if that makes any sense, albeit I know thats bonkers. I'm just hanging on by this insane, almost religious belief that it's fairer to give him a bit longer, a summer to build etc, but I know deep down that's nonsense. I know he's in over his head, I know he's as progressive as a fecking loom and has almost certainly lost the dressing room. If I could turn back time and stop him being appointed I would.

It's the "I'm surprised" bit that's got me. When that line up was released, absolutely no one was surprised. No one. This is basic common knowledge. When you're being tactically out thought by twitter, you're clearly just a pretty terrible manager.

Christ!

 

[amolbhatia50k]

21% hit on value of the club since Moyes took charge. Equates to roughly $600m.

And people actually think the glazers will sit back??? Don't think so.

Umm how did you get to that figure?

 

[LonelyFire]

Umm how did you get to that figure?

Already said, my maths were slightly out but based on market cap of $2.3bn and all shares (including bonds which aren't listed), the $600m is roughly correct

 

[Mockney]

It sounds like you don't want him sacked because then you'll want him sacked. I felt that way too for a fair while and kept qualifying what I want by saying things like "if he doesn't get 4th.." Or "If the football isn't far better...", but the truth is I just didn't want to take the stand that he should be sacked. Chuck that pretence, he should be sacked indeed. He's done a pathetic job and made a mockery of the team.

Yeah, it is that really. I was very absolute in my belief he should get 2 years at the start. Then that slowly eroded to 18 months about 3 months about, and now I'd be absolutely fine with him being sacked if he was, or just disappearing, Jimmy Hoffa style, I just prefer the idea of being able to say "It's a shame, I would've given him a bit more time but I can't argue with it" rather than standing naked on the battlefield drenched in blood and holding up his still screaming severed head to a roaring crowd.

Basically I'm being a massive pussy.

 

[scorgasm]

Is the Tweet in question. He said it was sent to him and it's from RI. Still, backs up what most are saying on here.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Yeah, it is that really. I was very absolute in my belief he should get 2 years at the start. Then that slowly eroded to 18 months about 3 months about, and now I'd be absolutely fine with him being sacked if he was, or just disappearing, Jimmy Hoffa style, I just prefer the idea of being able to say "It's a shame, I would've given him a bit more time but I can't argue with it" rather than standing naked on the battlefield drenched in blood and holding up his still screaming severed head to a roaring crowd.

Basically I'm being a massive pussy.

You're pathetic.

Wit text

 

[2 man midfield]

What's more preferable for those who want Moyes gone asap? Going out to Olympiacos, knowing we'd only get dicked by Barca anyway? Or getting through so we can lose heavily?

I think going out to the Greeks reflects worse on Moyes.

 

[bosnian_red]

Yeah, it is that really. I was very absolute in my belief he should get 2 years at the start. Then that slowly eroded to 18 months about 3 months about, and now I'd be absolutely fine with him being sacked if he was, or just disappearing, Jimmy Hoffa style, I just prefer the idea of being able to say "It's a shame, I would've given him a bit more time but I can't argue with it" rather than standing naked on the battlefield drenched in blood and holding up his still screaming severed head to a roaring crowd.

Basically I'm being a massive pussy.

I think what a few people are still not willing to admit, is we'd all be massively relieved and happy even if he got sacked tomorrow. Nobody would be able to argue that he wasn't given time, that it was a harsh sacking, and that he wasn't given the funds or time to make it work. He's just been terrible all around.

 

[togg]

Yeah, it is that really. I was very absolute in my belief he should get 2 years at the start. Then that slowly eroded to 18 months about 3 months about, and now I'd be absolutely fine with him being sacked if he was, or just disappearing, Jimmy Hoffa style, I just prefer the idea of being able to say "It's a shame, I would've given him a bit more time but I can't argue with it" rather than standing naked on the battlefield drenched in blood and holding up his still screaming severed head to a roaring crowd.

Basically I'm being a massive pussy.

I've been the same. I started off believing he would get three years....'the united way' to then believing that summer 2015 should be when he is judged. Then...in November I thought...dear me...well...at least give him the summer to build his own team...and give him until next Christmas. Now I'm thinking dear me....well, let's see if there is any indication for the few games left this season that might be good news...then review his situation at season end. Last night's performance has evern challenged that..

....ah the fickleness of fans like me eh?

 

[kouroux]

Yeah, it is that really. I was very absolute in my belief he should get 2 years at the start. Then that slowly eroded to 18 months about 3 months about, and now I'd be absolutely fine with him being sacked if he was, or just disappearing, Jimmy Hoffa style, I just prefer the idea of being able to say "It's a shame, I would've given him a bit more time but I can't argue with it" rather than standing naked on the battlefield drenched in blood and holding up his still screaming severed head to a roaring crowd.

Basically I'm being a massive pussy.

Best case scenario is that he leaves by mutual consent. He could do with the rest and a break from all this madness.

 

[Cal?]

Spot on @Mockney

The simple decision was bring in kagawa for Mata and play same system....instead he reverted to type and played both players and system that hasn't worked all season. Insanity.

We played that team against Palace so the likes of Valencia and Young would be rested for Olympiakos.

 

[bosnian_red]

What's more preferable for those who want Moyes gone asap? Going out to Olympiacos, knowing we'd only get dicked by Barca anyway? Or getting through so we can lose heavily?

I think going out to the Greeks reflects worse on Moyes.

We have a 9 day period, Mar 16-Mar 25, that I genuinely can't see him lasting past unless our board or the people in charge genuinely want us to fail. We play Liverpool on the 16th, Olympiacos on 19th, West ham away on the 22nd and then City on the 25th. If we don't beat Liverpool and get knocked out to Olympiacos, which looks probable at the moment, then with the confidence so low can anyone really say we'd beat west ham? Then would come the City game and you'd really have to fear for us in that game. Potentially losses to Liverpool and City at Old Trafford, along with getting knocked out to Olympiacos of all teams, in 9 days? I'd fear for his health and safety, let alone his job.

 

[Cal?]

What's more preferable for those who want Moyes gone asap? Going out to Olympiacos, knowing we'd only get dicked by Barca anyway? Or getting through so we can lose heavily?

I think going out to the Greeks reflects worse on Moyes.

I'd rather not have to play Barca, Real or Bayern with Moyes in charge, or we would just help Ronaldo break all the CL scoring records...

 

[Mockney]

You're pathetic.

Wit text

I think what a few people are still not willing to admit, is we'd all be massively relieved and happy even if he got sacked tomorrow. .

I've been the same. I started off believing he would get three years....

Best case scenario is that he leaves by mutual consent. He could do with the rest and a break from all this madness.

Thing is, I like the idea of being able to say that, but I know it's complete bollocks. By any rational standard he should go. He'd be sacked at literally any other club in the world. And not Jamie Redknapp literally. Literally literally. He's been significantly worse than Hodgson, who basically just held back a team who'd finished mid-table prior anyway, he's dragged us down kicking and screaming and held a pillow over our head. I'd like to be able to say that, but I'd also like to fly. And occasionally turn invisible. And be paid for thinking of amusing facebook status updates.

It's actually staggering what he's managed to do. Staggering. He's completely changed my view of management. I thought even a pretty average manager could get any truly elite team to compete. Madrid have hired some turkeys but always kept there or there abouts. People claim Pep's Barca managed themselves etc. To have brought the great Manchester United to their knees in 8 months is a mind blowing anti-achievement. I will never undervalue the job again.

 

[2 man midfield]

Thing is, I like the idea of being able to say that, but I know it's complete bollocks. By any rational standard he should go. He'd be sacked at literally any other club in the world. And not Jamie Redknapp literally. Literally literally. He's been significantly worse than Hodgson, who basically just held back a team who'd finished mid-table prior anyway, he's dragged us down kicking and screaming and held a pillow over our head. I'd like to be able to say that, but I'd also like to fly. And occasionally turn invisible.

It's actually staggering what he's managed to do. Staggering. He's completely changed my view of management. I thought even a pretty average manager could get any truly elite team to compete. Madrid have hired some turkeys but always kept there or there abouts. People claim Pep's Barca manage themselves etc. To have brought the great Manchester United to their knees in 8 months is a mind blowing anti-achievement. I will never undervalue the job again.

Agree with this.

 

[kouroux]

Thing is, I like the idea of being able to say that, but I know it's complete bollocks. By any rational standard he should go. He'd be sacked at literally any other club in the world. And not Jamie Redknapp literally. Literally literally. He's been significantly worse than Hodgson, who basically just held back a team who'd finished mid-table prior anyway, he's dragged us down kicking and screaming and held a pillow over our head. I'd like to be able to say that, but I'd also like to fly. And occasionally turn invisible.

It's actually staggering what he's managed to do. Staggering. He's completely changed my view of management. I thought even a pretty average manager could get any truly elite team to compete. Madrid have hired some turkeys but always kept there or there abouts. People claim Pep's Barca manage themselves etc. To have brought the great Manchester United to their knees in 8 months is a mind blowing anti-achievement. I will never undervalue to job again.

His best achievement so far is to make us realize how amazing SAF really was (we didn't really need a reminder though).

We played that team against Palace so the likes of Valencia and Young would be rested for Olympiakos.

It is the truth and just thinking about it makes me wanna cry.

 

[Adebesi]

His best achievement was to give us a reminder we didnt need about something we all knew. Sounds about right.

 

[Bross]

We played that team against Palace so the likes of Valencia and Young would be rested for Olympiakos.

Wow. It actually makes sense for this to be true. Especially after his "Im surprised" comment post match yesterday.

 

[togg]

Thing is, I like the idea of being able to say that, but I know it's complete bollocks. By any rational standard he should go. He'd be sacked at literally any other club in the world. And not Jamie Redknapp literally. Literally literally. He's been significantly worse than Hodgson, who basically just held back a team who'd finished mid-table prior anyway, he's dragged us down kicking and screaming and held a pillow over our head. I'd like to be able to say that, but I'd also like to fly. And occasionally turn invisible.

It's actually staggering what he's managed to do. Staggering. He's completely changed my view of management. I thought even a pretty average manager could get any truly elite team to compete. Madrid have hired some turkeys but always kept there or there abouts. People claim Pep's Barca manage themselves etc. To have brought the great Manchester United to their knees in 8 months is a mind blowing anti-achievement. I will never undervalue the job again.

It serves as a very big reminder just how superb Alex Ferguson was an a manager and leader. Sure he had faults, but my goodness was that bugger a winner, and that vibe permeated through every one working at the club. Even the tea ladies tea was probably up there with the best tasting tea in the country.

It is quite amazing just how much Moyes seems to have sucked out of United in general. A modern day Dracula who appears to have sucked the blood out of every player!!

 

[RedRover]

Is the issue here that the squad needs rebuilding? I think almost every United fan accepts that the squad needs new, fresh blood in order to take it up to the next level. He should be doing better with this group of players. We have some amazing footballers who look hamstrung by his methods.

The issue for me stems from the fact that what he's trying to do isn't immediately obvious. How is he trying to get us to play?

Last night there was no game plan from what I could see. Players with usually fantastic technique have forgotten how to control a ball let alone pass one and when we did get it they were absolutely clueless in carving out chances. He seems so stubborn in changing what's in front of his eyes, no change of tactics or formation to counter what the opposition do and no focus on their weaknesses, rather a highlighting of our own. We're slow, tumescent and lack creativity (which isn't entirely Moyes' fault) but he's not addressing it like he should. For a manager who has travelled Europe "studying" coaching methods he looks like he hasn't a clue of how to adapt.

Perhaps it isnt obvious what he's trying to do, or the style he wants to play. Perhaps he needs to know what he's going to have long term before he can make those decisions? His style seems dependant as it stands on what Fergie used to try to do - to break quickly and with width. It isnt working but as it is its difficult to see what sort of style they can play given the players we have and the way they are used to playing.

The uncertainty is a major issue for me. A new manager comes into the club knowing that he needs a couple of quality players in midfield and doesnt get them. He then has to work with what he has and also try to plan who he can get in the next window and think about what he can do if he gets player "x" or "y". Its hard to have a definite style of play when you know umpteen players are moving on and umpteen others coming in.

As it stands its difficult to judge Moyes (or any manager) who has taken over a squad that we all know lacks in certain areas. Comparing any manager to Fergie's achievements last year isnt fair, nor does it take into account what the other sides have done. Essentially Moyes has come in, told everyone he needs players, then didnt get them. he might not be up to the job, but her certainly isnt going to be when he doesn't get what he needs and was promised.

The Club have let him down badly - and this season is wasted. If players had come in in the summer and he couldnt get results it becomes easier to actually judge him and move on if its not going well. As it stands there is far too much up in the air to make that call - which then makes it more diffuclt if they have to move on.

The club have been naive for years in not investing in the saud, then made massive errors last summer in the way they conducted their transfer business - hardly attractive to any future manager, even if Moyes does get the push - "new manager comes in, not given what he's promised, sacked after less than a year for poor results" - hardly the way a sensible club is ran.

At the end of the day Moyes might prove to be out of his depth - but for me you cant judge any manager when he hasnt had the backing he clearly needs. As it is he seems to be targetting very good players of the level required which indicates he is ambitious and has plans for the future. If those players come in and he doent do it then he should be quickly removed, but if the players are top class that leaves a solid base for a new manage anyway.

 

[smallred]

interesting stat for you - if you split the 27 PL games this season in terms of crosses oer game to < 22 and > 22 you have the following.

16 games with > 22 crosses (average 34 per game) = 5 wins, 3 draws and 8 defeats (18 points).
11 games with < 22 crosses (average 18 per game) = 8 wins, 3 draws and 0 defeats (27 points.)

its very clear that we struggle when we focus on width, our wide players just are not good enough.

 

[KanieKaned]

Is Danny Taylor posting on here?? Seems to have screenshotted our poll

No he did the one from RedIssue however I posted him a screenshot of our poll earlier on when I saw his tweet!

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Thing is, I like the idea of being able to say that, but I know it's complete bollocks. By any rational standard he should go. He'd be sacked at literally any other club in the world. And not Jamie Redknapp literally. Literally literally. He's been significantly worse than Hodgson, who basically just held back a team who'd finished mid-table prior anyway, he's dragged us down kicking and screaming and held a pillow over our head. I'd like to be able to say that, but I'd also like to fly. And occasionally turn invisible. And be paid for thinking of amusing facebook status updates.

It's actually staggering what he's managed to do. Staggering. He's completely changed my view of management. I thought even a pretty average manager could get any truly elite team to compete. Madrid have hired some turkeys but always kept there or there abouts. People claim Pep's Barca managed themselves etc. To have brought the great Manchester United to their knees in 8 months is a mind blowing anti-achievement. I will never undervalue the job again.

Last paragraph is spot on in my case too. I used to have a much more simplified view of management before.

David Moyes, the record breaker and the teacher.